Talk:Genocide of Indigenous peoples

Wiki Education assignment: Disrupting the Status Quo- Social Justice in Technical and Professional Com

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 2 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Brookecur (article contribs).

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-03

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Calvinhuynh2002 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by ACHorwitz (talk) 22:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sainiaditya12 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Ryantakata.

— Assignment last updated by Bbalicia (talk) 00:45, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

"For this assignment, students will be making contributions to Wikipedia specifically designed to correct the well-documented gender, heterosexual, white, and Western bias in this extremely influential resource."

I've never seen Wikipedia associated assignments. Does the selection of this article mean that you believe the article exhibits are the aforementioned biases ? Phantomette (chat) 17:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Nellie massacre

The Nellie massacre is a reverse example and does not belong here. The victims, in this case, were migrants and the perpetrators were indigenous. Chaipau (talk) 15:44, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Canadian genocide of the First Nations into Genocide of Indigenous peoples#Canada

There is currently more info on this topic in the overview article. The imbalance should be fixed by merging or summary style. (t · c) buidhe 23:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Support. Too little meat for such a big fork ;) — kashmīrī ^TALK 00:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

yup....support merge Moxy🍁 16:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Very weak oppose, there is probably much more that can be written about this topic than would fit in a section here. But since it presently isn't written, I agree a merge with the redirect tagged {{R with possibilities}} and probably with a see also link to Canadian Indian residential school system (where most of the writing we do have on this topic is) would be appropriate. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:58, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Canadians originally had a standalone article..... like many other nations..... however they were all merged here many moons ago. I'd rather see everything merged out of here into its own article. As per WP:Does deletion help. Moxy🍁 20:34, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Would seem to warrant its own article (though perhaps its scope could be extended to Genocide of Indigenous peoples in Canada). Summary style is the solution. Graham (talk) 05:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. I could see expanding this into Genocide of Indigenous peoples in Canada but not merging in Genocide of Indigenous peoples, which has a worldwide context. Yuchitown (talk) 15:37, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Seems like this discussion should be taking place at Talk:Canadian genocide of the First Nations. Right now Genocide of Indigenous peoples is beyond 5 times larger than the recommended article length. The information here about Canadian First Nations should be transferred to Canadian genocide of the First Nations and then summarized here. Yuchitown (talk) 15:58, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• Strong oppose -- this article already too long. Agree with Yuchitown that this article should be split and summarized.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 18:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

RFC: Palestinian genocide accusations

The following text has been added and removed from the article several times over the past couple months. It had been included under the "contemporary examples" section, under the subheading "Israel", and had a {{main article}} link to Palestinian genocide accusation. Should this, or some version of it, be included in this article?

Throughout the extended Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the State of Israel has been accused of committing a genocide against Palestinians. Events such as the Nakba, the Sabra and Shatila massacre, the blockade of the Gaza Strip, the 2014 Gaza War, and the 2023 Israel–Hamas war have been used as examples of evidence for a genocide committed by Israel. Statements made by Israeli officials have also been described by genocide scholars as dehumanizing the population of Gaza and used as evidence for "genocidal intent."

-- Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

References

• Comment - there can be no reasonable debate as to whether or not Israel's actions in either the current conflict or the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict have been described by some prominent writers as genocide; we have a whole article about it which currently cites 379 sources. The question I suppose is whether or not Palestinians are considered an indigenous people. I don't know if that question is settled, and/or what the implications are for this discussion either way, so I'm going to wait for more comments before giving an opinion. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 20:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
• Leaning no. Arabs (including the ancestors of the people now using the demonym Palestinian) came in later, meanwhile the Jews (descended of the earlier Canaanite population there) were pushed out of this area for many centuries, with modern-day Israel later being established over the course of ca. 1920-48 through Jewish re-immigration. So, looking at it one way, both of these Semitic groups have a claim to being indigenous in some sense, and looking at it another more restrictive way, neither of them do. So, there is not clearly a case here of a colonial people imposing genocide on an indigenous people (even if there is mounting evidence that something genocidal is happening). It's either a newer colonial group oppressing an earlier but also colonial one; or a former and recently restored indigenous group oppressing an intermediary group that is also indigenous within a modern contextual understanding.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
• No - (Summoned by bot) The Israel-Palestinian conflict with history going back to 1947-48 is a political conflict, national conflict, and perhaps an inter-communal conflict. It can't be categorised as a conflict between "indigenous" and "non-indigenous" people. That topic doesn't belong here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
• Absolutely there is no reason not to include what is neutral, reliably sourced and notable. The fact that the Palestinians are indigenous to the area is undisputed, and so is the fact that the overwhelming majority of Israel's Jews migrated from elsewhere (they made aliyah from other countries). Those who are not familiar with the topic should read Nakba, the Nakba denial and the Palestinian genocide accusation (the second is an eye-opener). M.Bitton (talk) 21:25, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• No. Neither the population of modern Israel nor the inhabitants of Palestine can be uncontroversially termed as indigenous people. The former started settling down in larger numbers in the first half of the 20th century, being a very diverse group genetically and culturally; the latter were either nomadic Bedouins or similarly descendants of migrants from a few centuries earlier. No modern-day ethnic group can claim to be native to the current Israel-Palestine region IMO, so it would be a bad example for the article. See also SMcCandlish's excellent comment. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:46, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  Comparing those who have always lived there to those who arrived in living memory is rather strange. By that that standard, no ethnic group can ever be described as indigenous to anywhere but Africa (where it all started). M.Bitton (talk) 23:15, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Yes. People who are arguing it doesn't belong because Palestinians "aren't indigenous to Palestine" better start removing the section on Afghanistan, since the Hazaras have Mongol origin (gasp!). Oh, and the Chakma people of Bangladesh "gradually migrated to Arakan and extended their territory to the nearby hills of the Chittagong Hill Tracts", so they're not indigenous to the region either. Oh right, and the Uyghurs, they descend from diverse Turkic and Mongolic populations of Central Asia that settled gradually in East Turkistan, so... they're not indigenous either... Hmmm... Well, why stop there? By y'all's logic the Mongols of Inner Mongolia aren't indigenous either! And the Karen only migrated into Myanmar about 1500 years ago! And Yazidis only emerged in Iraq in the 12th century! Our very own article on indigenous peoples states that "there is no generally accepted definition of Indigenous peoples" but that "the focus has been on self-identification, cultural difference from other groups in a state, a special relationship with their traditional territory, and an experience of subjugation and discrimination under a dominant cultural model, all of which apply to Palestinians in Palestine, as the sources state. There is no justifiable reason to exclude this information. Dylanvt (talk) 02:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Also comment. Here are more scholarly sources that discuss genocide against Palestinians and refer to them as an indigenous people:

1. Nijim, M. (2023). Genocide in Palestine: Gaza as a case study. The International Journal of Human Rights, 27(1), 165–200. https://doi.org/10.1080/13642987.2022.2065261
2. Rashed, H. & D. Short (2012). Genocide and settler colonialism: can a Lemkin-inspired genocide perspective aid our understanding of the Palestinian situation? The International Journal of Human Rights, 16(8), 1142–1169. http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/13642987.2012.735494
3. Masalha, N. (2015). Settler-Colonialism, Memoricide and Indigenous Toponymic Memory: The Appropriation of Palestinian Place Names by the Israeli State. Journal of Holy Land and Palestine Studies, 14(1), 3–57. https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/abs/10.3366/hlps.2015.0103
4. Barakat, R. (2018). Writing/righting Palestine studies: settler colonialism, indigenous sovereignty and resisting the ghost(s) of history. Settler colonial studies, 8(3), 349-363. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/2201473X.2017.1300048
5. Rashed, H., Short, D., & Docker, J. (2014). Nakba memoricide: genocide studies and the Zionist/Israeli genocide of Palestine. Holy Land Studies, 13(1), 1-23. https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/abs/10.3366/hls.2014.0076
6. Shalhoub-Kevorkian, N. (2014). Human suffering in colonial contexts: Reflections from Palestine. Settler Colonial Studies, 4(3), 277-290. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2201473X.2013.859979

• Is this enough for you all??? Dylanvt (talk) 02:33, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
• No, technically there probably are no 'indigenous peoples'. Almost everyone, almost everywhere has supplanted an earlier group, so the only practical WP criteria is whether the 'supplanted' are generally seen and referred to as 'indigenous'. Although there clearly are some sources, they don't come anywhere near the number required to make the assertion that the Palestinians - rather than the ancestors of Israeli Jews, are the 'indigenous people'. I commend SMcCandlish's and Ivanvector's summaries of the main issues.Pincrete (talk) 05:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  You commend SMcCandlish's WP:OR on whether Palestinians are considered indigenous, but ignore the 6 peer-reviewed scholarly sources linked right above this that consider Palestinians indigenous? Dylanvt (talk) 12:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• No. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a very sensitive topic, and presenting this detail could be misconstrued as favoring one side over the other. Ideally, encyclopedia entries should strive for neutrality and avoid letting narratives influence factual information. Both Israelis and Palestinians have historical claims to the land, and both can be described as indigienous by some and colonists by others. Because of that complexity, I don't think this info is relevant for this article at all. 13:27, 28 May 2024 (UTC) ABHammad (talk) 13:27, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 25 May 2024

Genocide of Indigenous peoples → Genocide of indigenous peoples – "Indigenous" is only a proper name when adopted as conventional for a particular ethnic group, and when applied to the specific groups who have done so. As a general, global adjective it is not and cannot be a proper name (any more than the opposite, "colonial"), so should not be capitalized. See in particular the lead paragraph of MOS:CAPS: WP does not capitalize that which is not capitalized consistently across nearly all independent reliable sources, and "indigenous peoples" is not so capitalized (indeed, it is overwhelmingly lowercase [1][2], except in highly retrictive contexts that refer to specific populations who have adopted the term self-referentially as a name in English). This same situation is true of all such terms such as "native" and "aboriginal". "Aboriginal" is capitalized in reference to native Australians, and "Native" is capitalized in "Native Americans" in reference to the aboribinal peoples of what is now the US and sometimes (in American usage) all of the Americas. But "native" is not capitalized (by the preponderance of modern reliable sources) in reference to Australians, nor "aboriginal" in reference to Americans, and neither is capitalized in "the native (aboriginal) peoples and languages of Siberia and Central Asia before the Soviet Union", etc. PS: There may be other over-capitalized articles of this sort, but perhaps take them one at a time, since some might pertain more narrowly to groups that have taken on "Indigenous" as a self-referential name/label.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support - per nom, who left nothing in need of saying. Primergrey (talk) 08:28, 25 May 2024 (UTC) Primergrey (talk) 08:28, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support – Per above. Svartner (talk) 08:33, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support - per nom. Psychastes (talk) 13:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support - I was thinking the same thing, SMcCandlish beat me to it. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  I have to change to oppose after thinking about this some more. The style guides that were posted below by Yuchitown are pretty convincing, for one thing. I don't disagree with SMcCandlish, but I think there's confusion with the part of speech that the word represents in this title. Take for example the phrase, "The Indigenous Peoples of Canada are the people who are indigenous to the land now known as Canada", which I believe is correctly capitalized. The first "Indigenous" here is part of a proper noun referring to specific groups of people, which would be capitalized in any context. The second "indigenous" is an adjective, describing a property of its subject ("the people"); the style guides are in disagreement or ambiguous as to whether the word should be capitalized in its adjective sense. But that's irrelevant: "Indigenous" in the title still refers to specific groups; even if the specific group is "all Indigenous Peoples" it's still a group, and therefore it should be capitalized. The style guides are also ambiguous as to whether or not "people" should be capitalized in this context, but I think we're fine to leave it as is. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Graham (talk) 05:24, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. See WP:INDIGENOUS and MOS:RACECAPS. Indigenous is capitalized when referring to human beings, as per WP:MOS, as well as AP style, Chicago style, APA style, etc. Absolutely no good reason to go against the well-established styles in scholarly literature, mainstream news, and Wikipedia. Yuchitown (talk) 15:35, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
• Strong oppose, goes against Wikipedia policy perWP:INDIGENOUS and MOS:RACECAPS.  oncamera  _{(talk page)} 18:38, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose changing/moving Indigenous (upper case) to indigenous (lower case). When Indigenous is used to describe human beings, communities, individuals (rather than things like plants or rocks) it should be capitalized (this also goes for citizenship, tribes). Per WP's own guidelines WP:INDIGENOUS and MOS:RACECAPS in addition to the: APA Style Manual which states: "Capitalize 'Indigenous' and 'Aboriginal' whenever they are used.; the Chicago Manual of Style which states: "We would capitalize 'Indigenous' in both contexts: that of Indigenous people and groups, on the one hand, and Indigenous culture and society, on the other. Lowercase 'indigenous' would be reserved for contexts in which the term does not apply to Indigenous people in any sense—for example, indigenous plant and animal species."; and the the Associated Press 2019 Stylebook states: "The news organization will also now capitalize Indigenous in reference to original inhabitants of a place.". The Indigenous Journalists Association (formerly the Native American Journalists Association) also follows the AP stylebook.[3]. Netherzone (talk) 14:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support Not persuaded by the opposing votes and I find WP:INDIGENOUS vague and excessively Americacentric. The article covers indigenous group all around the world and should be seen as an umbrella term in the title, not something referring to individuals and their citizenship. Killuminator (talk) 16:47, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support per my comment here. — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:28, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Support WP:INDIGENOUS is incredibly US-centric and doesn't deal with the use of indigenous in this global sense. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Strong oppose - The title in question it is part of the proper noun. We can have separate argument whether indigenous should always be capitalized when describing people because it is always part of the proper noun but in this case it absolutely is and should be kept how it is. I don't see a compelling argument made here in support based on MOS or policy. The only argument is it being America or US-centric but that is not a policy based argument. It is an opinion based argument and entirely subjective and somewhat overplayed.WP:LOCALCON come into play here as well. --ARoseWolf 12:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

May 2024

@Ivanvector and Dylanvt: I just wanted to let you know that the same editors have been removing the perfectly sourced and neutral section for no reason whatsoever (the cited ONUS is obviously BS). M.Bitton (talk) 19:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@האופה: WP:ONUS is neither an explanation nor a valid reason for you to edit war over the content that you want to keep out of the article. Feel free to provide one (if it exists). M.Bitton (talk) 19:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm ignoring them, no edit warring. I started an RFC instead a few sections up; you and they are free to comment. (@ABHammad, O.maximov, and האופה: courtesy ping) Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 19:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• I have fully protected the page, because the edit war is speeding up. Hopefully by then consensus will be reached. PhilKnight (talk) 19:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)