Talk:1st Cavalry Division (United States)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Merge tags

I added merge tags to the various brigade articles. If you read the articles, there is really not much there. "XX Brigade went to NTC" - no kidding, most every unit does. "XX brigade was on DRB in 1999" - once again, wow, what insight. "So-and-so brigade spent the early years training hard" - yup. Or my favorite - "In October 1999, the brigade returned to Ft Hood. Black Jack Brigade was called upon once again to be America's Vanguard as it maintained 7 month's of DRB status for the 1st Cavalry Division." (exact quote). America's Vanguard? OMG, the army must have wrote this. Really, once you strip away the non-notable "every unit in the army does it" stuff, the campaign/battle info already in the main article, and the borderline jingoistic language, you don't have much. These can all be a paragraph in the main article. Nobunaga24 00:13, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree totally with Cyane. I'm doing some mergers now but I really don't know enough about the military to do these. Can one of you? If not, I'll just have to do some pretty gratuitous cut and paste and add some redirects and hope later people edit the sections, still, would be better than it is now.Avraham 22:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

  • I'm slowly getting around to doing it, but it's kind of low on my list right now. The 1st Cav spent I believe 5 years in Vietnam. Vietnam gets 2 sentences in the 1st Brigade article, and meanwhile the Iraq War had half the article. It was detailing the raid on one house. Lots of work here... --Nobunaga24 00:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

1920s and 1930s - inconsistent chronology

The chronology in 1920s and 1930s is inconsistent, and probably incorrect.

  1. 4 April 1921 - established TOE, authorized square division
  2. 20 August 1921 - constituted 1st cav div
  3. 31 August 1920 - authorized establishment of 1st cav div - should this be 1921?
  4. September 1920 - 1st cav div went active - should this be 1921?
  5. 31 August 1920 - HQ 2nd cav brig reactivated - should this be 1921?
  6. 31 August 1920 - 1st cav brig reactivated - should this be 1921?
  7. 20 August 1921 - 1st cav reg transferred to 1st cav div
  8. 13 September 1921 - other regs transferred

It appears that the 1920 dates should be 1921. Sbowers3 15:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Casualties during the Vietnam War

Wasn't the 1st Cavalry Division the US Army unit that received the heaviest casualties during the whole war? On the American side i mean.-189.34.174.226 (talk) 21:01, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct.

P1340

Gulf War

The unit that attacked into Iraq prior to the ground war during Desert Storm was the 2nd "Black Jack" Brigade. The two Task Forces that conducted the attacks were Task Force 1-5 Cavalry "Black Knights" and Task Force 1-8 Cavalry "Mustangs". I was a member of the Task Force 1-8 Cavalry's battalion staff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.149.1.36 (talk) 17:04, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

That section needs some work. I'll put it on my list. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 19:24, 19 January 2010 (UTC) (1/5 Cav)

Korean War Revisionism?

The 1st Cavalry Division had an overall poor performance in Korea, at least during the first half of their time there. This stemmed from the general unpreparedness of Eighth Army as well as the fact that 750 key noncoms were pulled from the unit and sent to units already fighting in Korea, and replaced at the last minute with new people often unqualified or without any training or experience. Aside from those transfers, before "The Cav" even deployed to Korea they were handicapped by substandard training and frequent personnel transfers. The division did not generally acquit itself well in the beginning of the war, but this is not only limited to the Unsan battle (although the 3/7 Cavalry was an outstanding unit, but it was a "reflagged" unit from the states, and not a part of the original division in Japan).

It's illuminating also, to read the Chinese appraisal of the 8th Cavalry at Unsan...it's not very flattering. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.105.29.181 (talk) 05:38, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Cav Motto?

"Motto Move in on em and kill em {em=Them}" I have never heard this motto. Is it historical? Made up? Searched for confirmation but couldn't find it. --Basherrr 11:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

I remember two "unflattering" mottos from my Army days. "The pitter patter of little feet, First Cav's in full retreat" and "The horse that never was, the color they were, and the line that couldn't be crossed". I don't know for sure, but I recollect they both had to do with a battle in Vietnam. wbfergus 19:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Okay, just did a little searching on Google. "The pitter patter of little feet" actually goes back to the Korean War, from a tune called "The Bug-Out Ballad". wbfergus 19:35, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
So I found a reference for that motto, but unsure what to make of the page. http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/lineage/cc/001cd.htm --Basherrr 11:43, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It likely was a great number of things that gave rise to that little rhyme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.121.86.167 (talk) 06:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

First Cavalry Description

The description of the First Cavalry Division in the Korean War says nothing about the importance of its actions in that War. The conquest of Pyongyang and the Korean War decisive battle of Chipyong Ni are entirely ignored. On the other hand, a great deal of information is given about the less important Vietnam War. Moreover, the famous battles of the Fifth Cavalry in the Civil War and the Fifth (With Buffalo Bill) and the Seventh in the Indian Wars are passed over. Truly its regiments are among the most famous and honored in the United States Army.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.114.255.90 (talk • contribs) 06:35, 23 November 2004.

Actually, the 1st Cav wasn't involved with Chipyong-ni. That was the 23rd Infantry RCT. User:P1340

The achievements of the Regiments are most properly covered on their own pages Mikeofv (talk) 12:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)


Korea--what a travesty that it only gets a couple lines. I'll add to it although maybe someone else can arrange the headers since I don't know how. P1340 17:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)P1340

Thanks for bringing up this deficiency. Please feel free to add to the article with your knowledge. All Wikipedia articles are "works in progress", some far more so than others. ;-} -Rholton 17:08, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Concision

Pretend you're new to the concept of the 1st Cavalry. "Huh, cavalry? In the 21st century? Do they still ride horses into battle?" Now read through the article and try to extract that information. Your eyes will cross.

Evidently they did something different in World War II, and then flew helicopters in Vietnam, and then were "heavy armor" in later wars.

1st CAV was horse cavalry 1921-1941, infantry in WW2 & Korea, infantry with helicopters added for mobility in Vietnam, then became an Armored Division Mikeofv (talk) 12:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

lineage of the First Cav Div

I know that the phrase about the 1855 date is found in the official history, but it is technically accurate only because the Cavalr Brigades were subsumed into the division. The Regiments retain their own history, and the two sets of time lines are technically separate. 20:55, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

The four Brigades in the 1st CD have a much longer history than the Division. Indeed, they were the senior organizations before the introduction of permanent Divisions around the time of World War I.. SSG Cornelius Seon (Retired) 21:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

US Army cavalry brigades once were sequentially numbered (e.g., 1st and 2nd with the 1st CD, 3rd and 4th with the 2nd CD, and so on) and coincidentally, upon re-introduction of brigades, two of the present four brigades have the same numbers (1 and 2), but I see no lineage or connection with the earlier brigades. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.6.155 (talk) 20:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The Cavalry Brigades were assigned as part of the 15th Cavalry Division which was inactivated and assets used to form the 1st Cavalry Division. 1st and 2nd Brigades maintained the same regiments under 15th & 1st Cavalry Divisions. The 3rd Cavalry Brigade was composed of the 9th & 10th Cavalry regiments and became part of the 2d Cavalry Division after inactivation of the 15th and didn't join the Division until the ROAD program in the 1960's Mikeofv (talk) 12:42, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Today's 1st Cav brigades do not share lineage with the original ones which were done away with in 1949. They were 1st Cavalry Brigade and 2nd Cavalry Brigade; the Third Cavalry Brigade was disbanded during WWII. The army later adopted the ROAD system in the early 60s in which divisions have an identical structure of three brigade, i.e., each division has 1st Brigade, 2nd Brigade, and 3rd Brigade. That the original brigades (under the old organization) have the same numbers, is coincidental.

While I can appriciate the lineage of the Division as opposed to the regiment, the 1st US Cavalry was not so designated "Cavalry" until 1855 by act of congress. In 1833 they along with the later 2nd US Cavalry were designated as US Dragoons. A role much similar today as mechanized infantry.

During the American Civil War however two companies continued to be assigned to the New Mexico territory until late 1862-1863. The remainder of the regiment which was battalion strength was brigaded up in the US Army of the Potomac and during the 1863 Gettysburg Campaign saw action in the East Cavalry Field engagement of July 3rd 1863. (Before Gettysburg the Regiment saw some noted commanders including Gen. Alfred Pleasanton).

The Regiment saw much of the war in the Eastern Theater from that point on. Including the Battle of Cedar Creek near Middleton Virginia where the regiment was in reserve under Col. Chas. Lowells brigade in Gen Wesley Merritts division. If anything I think a distiction needs to be made between the history of the division as opposed to the regiment. From what I gather there are actually companies in the US army whcih were origanally part of the 1st Regiment, while the 1st Division holds at least three brigades with no less than three or four regiments each. (Like the 7th Cav. Garryowen, Col Custers command of regular cavalry of 1876 Battle of Little Big Horn fame.

While I do believe that the history of the division starts with the 1st regiment, a distinction should be made as to when the 1st went from Regimental to Divisional strength. As ever I am respectfully sarge.

Society of the Military Horse 35th Battalion Virginia Cavalry "The Commanches" by: John Divine History of the United States Cavalry by: Albert G. Brackett They Followed the Plume: By Robert Trout —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.66.16.116 (talk) 10:12, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what you're getting at here; the 1st Cavalry Regiment and the 1st Cavalry Division were always two totally different things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.6.155 (talk) 20:17, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

World War II to 1950

In the middle is a chart - unit, staged, depart, arrived. What year was this? Reading on I concluded it was 1943 but that should be stated clearly. The word "depart" probably should be "departed". Can someone reformat that chart so things line up? I don't know wiki markup nearly well enough. Sbowers3 12:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC) Is this better now? Mikeofv (talk) 09:53, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

--JeffGBot (talk) 03:38, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Inaccurate WWII Structure Charts

The WWII charts showing the different structural changes has got the "weapons troop" components on the 1944-45 chart, when they should be on the 1942 chart and disappearing from the 44-45 chart. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.105.96.25 (talk) 11:26, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Dr. Robert C. Ankony

Jeff G, Please do not delete the work I did on the Vietnam section of this 1st Cavalry Division page. It needed more detail on Vietnam and my work is scholarly research that is well documented. I also do much work polishing English and correcting obvious errors of facts on areas I have expertise and on related Wikipedia sites. Thanks againIcemanwcs (talk) 20:33, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

"Failed verification" tag

I've added a "failed verification" tag to the first sentence. The source cited calls the 1st & 4th Infantry Divisions "two of the Army's most famous and decorated divisions remain in the active force" but does not apply this to the 1st Cav. While the source does note that the divisions chosen to be retained were chosen based on "unit age, campaign participation, and awards and decorations" this is insufficient to support the current text of the article that the 1st Cav "is one of the most decorated combat divisions". While this statement may be true, it needs citation to a reliable source. I chose to put the "failed verification" tag instead of deleting the text because I suspect a reliable source exists somewhere to support the assertion about this outstanding unit. Ocalafla (talk) 17:46, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

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4th Brigade Combat team

Should this be spilt off into its own page? The other brigades have their own and this section is awkwardMikeofv (talk) 17:40, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

4th BCT

The 4th Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division was activated in a ceremony held 18 October 2005 at Noel Field at Fort Bliss, Texas. During the ceremony, MG Peter W. Chiarelli presented the colors to Col. Stephen Twitty, who assumed command of the brigade. The Brigade was built by the reassignment of 2-12 Cavalry from 2nd Brigade, 2-7 Cavalry and 1-9 Cavalry from 3rd Brigade, and the transfer of the 27th Main Support Battalion from the inactivating Division Support Command. 5-82 Field Artillery and the 4th Brigade Support battalion were newly activated units.

The 4th BCT assumed responsibility of Ninawa province from the 3rd Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division on 9 December 2006. The brigade headquarters was based in Mosul, Ninawa's provincial capital. The brigade's mission was to build capable Iraqi security forces and to conduct operations against the Iraqi insurgency. The brigade transferred authority to the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment in December 2007 and began returning home.

4th Brigade Combat Team deployed to southern Iraq in June 2008 as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom 08-10. As part of the Multi-National Division-Center, the 4th BCT trained and mentored the 10th Division of the Iraqi Army, three Provincial Police Forces and Iraq Border Patrol units along the Iran-Iraq border in the provinces of Muthanna, Dhi Qar and Maysan. The brigade's operational area had 2.8 million citizens and included Iraq's fourth-largest city, An Nasiriyah. While the brigade headquarters was located at Contingency Operating Base Adder in Dhi Qar province, the unit deployed three battalions to the Maysan province where it built 2 bases and several ports of entry along the Iraq-Iran border. 2–7 Cavalry occupied FOB Garryowen and operated in northern Maysan province while 1–9 Cavalry and 5–82 Field Artillery "Black Dragons" occupied FOB Hunter in southern Maysan province. The brigade's other 3 battalions were based at COB Adder. The 2–12 Cavalry "Thunderhorse" partnered with Iraqi units in Muthanna and Dhi Qar provinces. The brigade's 4th Special Troops Battalion "Spartans" provided enablers and performed garrison and base defense operations at COB Adder.

During its one-year deployment, the 4 BCT served as higher headquarters for three Romanian battalions: the 151st Infantry Battalion "Black Wolves," the 341st Infantry Battalion "White Sharks," and the 26th Infantry Battalion "Red Scorpions." These Romanian units were an integral part of the BCT's success through their partnership with the 10th Iraqi Army Division, Special Forces and combat patrols in Dhi Qar province. In addition to the Iraqi Army, the brigade also partnered with the provincial reconstruction teams (PRT) in each of its three provinces to improve quality of life. The unit provided logistics, movement and security support to the PRTs to allow them to improve the governance and economic conditions. The 4 BCT worked with the Iraqi security forces to seize over 10,000 dangerous munitions and apprehend dozens of criminals in the Maysan marshes to improve the security situation in southern Iraq. 2–7 Cavalry worked with the Iraqi Police in Majar al Kabir to capture the criminals responsible for murdering six British military police in November 2004. The brigade also worked with the Iraqi security forces to provide security to Iraq's provincial elections in January 2009. During the final month of the brigade's rotation in May 2009, it transitioned the security responsibility of the historic Ziggurat of Ur to the Iraqi authorities. Previously, the Ziggurat was inside the perimeter of COB Adder in Dhi Qar province. The structure is one of the world's oldest historical archeological sites and a treasure of the Iraqi people. On 4 May 2009, 5th Battalion, 82nd Field Artillery Regiment returned home from Iraq. On 10 May, a second group of 300 soldiers of the 4th BCT came home after a 15 months tour in Iraq. This section removed from the article & stored here before moving to its own section; no one has commented since I raised this issue in November 2014. Mikeofv (talk) 18:56, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Question the dates cited for the transformation from horse cavalry to infantry

I question the statement that the First Cavalry Division disposed of its horses and became solely infantry early (February) in 1943. As an army draftee, I was transported in April '43 from Lynn, Mass. to the Cavalry Training and Replacement Center in Fort Riley Kansas. After about one month of basic training I began training as a cavalry trooper, using live horses. Training on horseback took one-half of the day, the other half taken up by radio operator training. About half-way thru this phase (which my fading 87-yr old memory says was at about six weeks) our troop received "new" remounts, which we continued to ride until the horse-borne training cycle ended. The ending of that phase was marked by at least one horse-borne parade, passing in review before the commanding general (one-star). I recall the fun of passing in review at a slow-trot, accompanied by the post band playing "Pop Goes The Weasel". After a subsequent exercise, in which I was the radio operator in the C.O.'s Scout Car (admittedly no horses in sight), I "graduated" to an assignment in the First Cav. Division, which was about to be shipped from Washington State (scuttlebutt said, along with its horses) to the Pacific Theater. An unrelated reassignment sent me elsewhere, but I left convinced that I had been trained for service in the Horse Cavalry. I was surprised to read otherwise in your article 76.100.67.141 (talk) 18:34, 7 November 2011 (UTC) John R. (Jack) Harney, New Carrollton, MD.

The above question is quite old, but since it was never answered, I offer the following: Mr. Harney implies that he was assigned to the 1st Cavalry Division, as he states that, "I 'graduated' to an assignment in the First Cav. Division,..." (he does not say what unit) for a brief period before the division was deployed to the Southwestern Pacific Theatre, and it was still equipped with horses, so he questions the February, 1943 date for the division's transition from horse cavalry to dismounted cavalry (i.e., infantry).
(1) Per the official history of the 1st Cavalry Division, on February 28, 1943 the division's four cavalry regiments (5th, 7th, 8th, and 12th) conducted a "dismount" ceremony prior to beginning the process of turning in their horses and tack. However, the regiments retained their horses (which they continued to feed and water but did not ride) until the horses were transferred to the Quartermaster Corps for re-assignment or auction.
(2) The 1st Cavalry Division had been alerted for deployment to the Southwestern Pacific Theatre but General MacArthur insisted that the division would not be transported with horses (the General wanted another "infantry" division not a "horse" cavalry outfit), [ergo, how the division transitioned to becoming an infantry organization with a cavalry designation], so divisional units retained their horses until each unit departed from Ft. Bliss, TX for Camp Stoneman, CA for transport from San Francisco to Brisbane, Australia. [Mr. Harney, says that the division, "was about to be shipped from Washington State (scuttlebutt said, along with its horses) to the Pacific Theatre" (sic). However, the 1st Cavalry Division was not in Washington but rather in Texas! So, perhaps he is mistaken as to exactly what unit he originally had orders for and he never actually reported to the 1st Cavalry Division, as he says that, "[a]n unrelated reassignment sent [him] elsewhere...".
(3) Divisional units began staging from Ft. Bliss to Camp Stoneman on May 23, 1943, the last on 21 June 1943.
(4) Presuming that Mr. Harney's recollections of his dates and length of training are correct and that if he indeed did report to the 1st Cavalry Division, it appears that he probably was assigned to one of the last 1st Cavalry Division units to stage from Ft. Bliss and the unit retained its horses as they had not yet been transferred to the QM Corps. (The Headquarters and Headquarters Troops of both the 1st Cavalry Division and the 1st Cavalry Brigade did not stage until 21 June, 1943.)
(5) If Mr. Haney, or someone familiar with his service history could supply more information re dates and locales as addressed above, I believe we could solve the apparent misunderstanding/confusion about the 1st CD and its horses. CobraDragoon (talk) 16:21, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Why the hell it was made a Cavalry divison? - Let's do the history section again. ... Anyone?

The introduction and history section both start with organisational details about how the 1st Cavalry Division was organized as a square divison with a table of organisation and equipment, what units it consisted of and everything, but that's all pretty uninteresting for the common reader. He, of course, wants to know why the hell they made a Cavalry unit after WWI and what it was supposed to do. At war or in ceremony. Being a German, I read the German Wikipedia article about the 1st Cavalry and there it's said the origins and traditions of the 1st would go back to the 2nd Cavalry of 1855, for some reason. That'd be rather understandable. Of course, like so many articles on de.wikipedia.org, these claims of some militaria freaks are made without any verified source. However, maybe these informations are still true and can be used, repeated and verified here, by some natural born U.S. citizens who want the Wiki-article on "one of the most decorated combat divisions of the United States Army" to be understandable for the common interested reader.--JakobvS (talk) 21:57, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I definitely understand. I put together 10th Mountain Division (United States) and a lot of the best parts of that article are explaining how it came to be. This unit is infinitely more complicated, though. It has a huge history spanning just about every big war of the past 100 years (and possibly beyond) so it's just been a huge project people probably shy away from getting into. Eventually I think it will turn into a family of four or five pages in the end. —Ed!(talk) 23:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Aha. Well, I think, like with any good story based on facts, it'd be very important here to clearify for yourself what story exactly you want to tell, which facts are important to do so and which ones arent' necessary to do so. Personally, I think the main story for the history section would be the answer to this question: why and for what did they create this unit with that seemingly anachronistic name?--JakobvS (talk) 20:05, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

While the question/answer/response above is over three years old, the original question was never answered. First, let's clarify that the lineage of the 1st Cavalry Division does not recede to 1855 - the division never existed until 1921. Secondly, now, as to why the division was formed as, and continued as, a traditional horse cavalry organization until 1943, please see the United States Cavalry wiki article and the below excerpt from the history of the 1st Cavalry Division:
The reason that the Army had a continuing interest in horse cavalry operations in 1942 was simply that there was no fully developed strategy for fighting the war in the event of an invasion of the western hemisphere. If the Army, in a tactical situation such as the invasion of France by Germany, could have been guaranteed networks of good roads, ample fuel supplies, gentle familiar terrain and constant air superiority, it might have decided to get along without the horse cavalry operations. However, chances were, that the US defenses might be challenged on less than ideal terrain; perhaps an enemy landing in Western Mexico or along the coast of Brazil, that was friendly to Germany. In such an event mounted soldiers, using sturdy, sure footed-horses, could prove invaluable. [1]
CobraDragoon (talk) 19:55, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.first-team.us/tableaux/chapt_02/Retrieved September 5, 2116.

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Graphics

Some of the little yellow shields in the hierarchy at the bottom are wrong. The ones with two stars on them are just for the division hq, not other HQ elements. The right ones for the BDE HQs are the same as the ones for the BDEs. 214.27.58.36 (talk) 17:45, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

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6th Cavalry Brigade (Air Combat)

U.S. Army Aviation Digest, January 1980 [1]: "..traces its roots to the spring of 1942 and the activation of the 6th Tank Group at Camp Bowie, TX. Redesignated 6th Armd Group; fought through Western Europe; inactivated 1952; 6th Air Cavalry Combat Brigade, May 1971 - February 1975; 6 AG reconstituted as 6 CB(AC) on 21 February 1975. Officers: 198; Warrant Officers: 279; enlisted: 2,285, total: 2,762. Dinackus 2000 (page 11-2) says that the brigade was alerted for movement to join what became Operation Desert Shield in 1990 but '..the Army cancelled the orders when it became apparent that [it] had substantial equipment readiness problems, supposedly due to a severe wind storm that had devastated Fort Hood in 1989.' Buckshot06 (talk) 16:03, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Division Song

The Division Song is no longer Garry Owen, it is now always has been "Spirit of the Cav". The song was created by the 1st Cavalry Division Band for the 1st Cavalry Division. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.24.45.40 (talk) 19:15, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Please site your source for we cannot take any one editor's word for it. --McChizzle (talk) 19:22, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
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