Talk:AMT Hardballer

Hitman Games

Sections referring to the "Hitman" video game series keep getting taken in and out of this article. WP:GUNS#Pop culture does allow for references if it's particularly notable; this is a well-known series and seems to be one of the major reasons people come to this article. The section shouldn't be as long, perhaps, as it's been at times in the past, but I think it definitely rates at least a mention. The sentence I've added isn't particularly well written, so fell free to improve it - maybe make it link directly to the relevant part of the Hitman articles - but don't just delete it without discussion. 219.175.14.11 (talk) 17:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I came to this article because of the game, and only checked the talk page to see if there was some prior discussion about it being included.

Some other articles about specific firearms seem to have problems with popular culture sections and the like being removed too. It seems that the guardians of these pages don't like them. 222.153.46.222 (talk) 22:07, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Likewise, I have to agree that the appearance of the Hardballer in the Hitman series is prominent enough to warrant a mention. The fanatical deletion of past references, if I had to warrant a guess, is due to the use of a fictional nickname for the guns in the games. "Silverballers", while a clear reference to the Hardballer, is still not the actual nickname used for them, which does technically make this against the rules to include. However, this article is linked on the Hitman page, and I'd be more than happy to wager that a majority of the traffic for this page is thanks, at least in part, to the video game series. Keeping this in mind, it seems remiss to the point of negligence to not include some MINOR mention of Hitman on this page, regardless of the rules, which aren't all that explicit on this matter anyway. Furthermore, the rules specifically mention that the goal of eliminating pop culture reference sections is to reduce clutter, something that is not an issue with this article. Until such a time as clutter becomes an issue, I think the move most helpful to everyone would be to include a one-line mention at the bottom of the page. 129.171.233.77 (talk) 06:40, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

The AMT pistols are relatively obscure and the game itself had no effect on the pistol or its perception. You're in the wrong place, feel free to add mention of the Hardballer in the Hitman article. Koalorka (talk) 15:18, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't be aware of the guns if not for the Hitman series. It's a very popular video game series that spawned a feature film. It doesn't matter if you don't like that. It's relevant to Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.88.228.158 (talk) 23:46, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

classic wikipedia nazis dictating what is and isnt connected — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1970:595B:D800:F0BF:3157:CF67:1E71 (talk) 23:20, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

I would add to the consensus that at least a reference to Hitman should be made in the popular culture section. It is hard to demonstrate that Hitman increased AMT Hardballer sales, considering production of the AMT ended only two years after the Hitman franchise began. However, there is a recent article recognizing that the game significant increased the notoriety of the AMT. https://gunmagwarehouse.com/blog/the-amt-backup-the-old-school-pocket-pistol/. In addition, when reviewing google search trends between 'AMT Hardballer' 'Hitman' and 'Silverballer,' there is a clear correlation between the activity of each of these results. E.g., 'AMT Hardballer' searches see increased interest with each release of a new hitman game. It's clear the game is increasing the AMT's notoriety. I therefore add to consensus of brief mention to the series. (also my apologies if I used the talk page incorrectly, I'm still learning the use of talk pages. --Supreme Chungus (talk) 23:30, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Major update

I have updated this page so most of your questions should now be answered. A picture has been added as well.

As for the 'Silverballers' I believe this is a nickname for actual Hardballers in the Hitman game.

As much as I've read about AMT I haven't found anything about the Hardballer in .38 caliber at all.—Preceding unsigned comment added by K-Man75 (talk • contribs) 13:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

untitled comment

I corrected the article for the following - I deleted the assertion that they all came with wrap around rubber grips and loaded chamber indicators. I bought mine new in 1980 and it came with wood grips. It does not have a loaded chamber indicator and I do not believe any of them ever did, at least none that I have ever seen that were manufactured up until the AMT company went out of business. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.178.203 (talk) 18:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I've moved this page from Hardballer, since this is (a) the correct name and (b) more often linked to in wikipedia articles. Ud terrorist 11:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Did you redirect the Silverballer article to here? I just searched for Silverballer only to be redirected here, yet I understood that they were two completely different guns, one of them being entirely fictional?

The article also doesn't mention Hitman Codename 47 (the reason I search for the Siverballer), so a bit confusing.

Pablo180 22:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Better photo needed

A better photo of the gun is needed. There are several excellent shots of the gun visible in The Terminator, perhaps someone can use a screengrab?

Weird sentence

"In the fictional videogame 'Hitman', its main character, Agent 47, almost always carries two 45.ACP AMT Hardballers as his signature weapons."

Why in the world does it say "fictional videogame"? It's like saying that the videogame doesn't really exist. And the Terminator reference should really be cut out of the main text and put under the same headline as this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.90.83.237 (talk) 22:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

You're right, I've made the corrections.--Vittau 03:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh wait, less than one minute after I did this, user LWF deleted it all... honestly I don't see reason for the deletion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vittau (talk • contribs) 03:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Longslide; .38 Special or .38 Super?

Are we sure it's .38 Special? .38 Super would be more common in a 1911 style automatic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.118.72.85 (talk) 04:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

In popular culture

Hello...

I added a 'In Popular Culture' tab. If you are going to delete it in any way, just tell me why by posting a message in my talk page. Bye. Altaïr Skywalker 47 (talk) 17:58, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Pop culture trivia

There is nothing notable about the appearance of this gun in a Hitman videogame. This is Wikipedia, not IMDFB. Per the WP:GUNS guidelines: "Citations are needed if the notability of an appearance is disputed; these citations should not be a list of appearances but should be a source actually showing increased fame or notoriety because of the appearances." If you (Naapple) can find a reliable source clearly stating the weapon had increased fame or notoriety due to the Hitman appearance, post it on the talk page here so it can be discussed. ROG5728 (talk) 01:11, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

See the topic above. Consensus was reached. If you have an issue, bring it up there. Thanks. Naapple (Talk) 03:38, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but fly-by-night IP editors carry virtually no weight in determining consensus (which can change, by the way). Speaking of consensus, the WP:GUNS guidelines were formed by consensus, and this addition fails the criteria set forth there. Again, this is Wikipedia, not IMFDB..... You need to cite some sources clearly stating that this weapon had increased fame or notoriety due to the Hitman appearance. For an example, take a look at the Walther PPK article, which cites a source saying James Bond's use of the PPK greatly contributed to its sales and popularity (I highly doubt the same could be said of Hitman and the AMT gun). ROG5728 (talk) 18:45, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

If you bother to read what a wiki project actually is, then you'll see that there's no authority there. They've established what they think are a good set of guidelines to edit by. For the most part it's pretty decent, and I'd like to adhere to it. However, quoting it as a policy is absolutely wrong. It's not a policy at all, and even so, I'm not suggesting it be broken; the hardballer's use in Hitman does contribute to it's recognition. Several editors on this talk page over the past few years have stated the same thing. Not only that, but there are plenty of examples of people buying exact replicas or making their own custom hardballer to look like the one from hitman. Naapple (Talk) 19:52, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Again, you were the one insisting we follow consensus, and consensus across the entire WikiFirearms project (in general) has been to exclude pop culture trivia because it's pointless and clutters gun articles with info that is basically useless to most readers. If the Hardballer's use in Hitman did contribute to its sales and popularity, as you say it did, then you should be able to find a source that says so. But I highly doubt that's the case. And the ancient talk page comments by a couple of IPs have no bearing on what we should do in the article today. ROG5728 (talk) 20:12, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

The "consensus" in wiki firearms doesn't apply to pages. There isn't a separate set of rules for firearms on wikipedia. No one's saying we should include every instance of when a firearm was used in game/movies/etc, but the hardballer's use in Hitman has increased it's popularity. The fact that there isn't some news article reporting an x amount of gun sales on the hardballer after the Hitman series started doesn't mean that it hasn't affected it, and even on the PPK page, the only Bond cite is to an encyclopedia. There are several forum posts of people looking to buy a hardballer from the game, and complaining of it's increase in price. To be blunt, the hardballer is a cheaper, inferior clone to the 1911. It's popularity and price is absolutely influenced by this game, as is it's recognition for a handgun that would otherwise be unnotable. It would be outside the intent of wikipedia to not recognize this all in the name of blindly following to the letter some wiki project's policy that doesn't actually carry any authority. Naapple (Talk) 21:13, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Again, cite a source. You keep talking about how Hitman made the AMT gun more popular. What is your source? The source in the Walther PPK article actually does reflect exactly what the article says -- James Bond's use of the PPK directly influenced the PPK's popularity and sales. I happen to have that source on hand, and what it says is correct. Like I said, James Bond's use of the PPK is a good example of what constitutes notable pop culture trivia. Dirty Harry's use of the S&W Model 29 is another good example. This case, however, is not notable at all and there are no sources linking the Hitman game to any increase in sales or popularity for the AMT gun. If this trivia passes as being "notable," anything does. Again, there's a website for this kind of stuff; it's called IMFDB. ROG5728 (talk) 21:21, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I normally weed these out of the firearms articles. However, if you google hitman and amt harballer you get 8000+ hits, including people looking for the now discontinued guns because of the game and modding their guns to look like the ones in the game. While it is only about 25% of the number of hits for AMT Longslide and Terminator; I think it is notable enough with a print reference. Its not like someone trying to include it in the M16 article because the character uses an M16. This seems to be the character's primary weapon in the game.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 21:29, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I think you could find the same number of hits if you did a similar search for any pop culture mention. For example, if you Google search "Goldeneye P90" you will get over a million hits, or if you Google search "Counterstrike deagle" you will get 3.6 million hits. The list goes on and on; and I don't doubt that plenty of people have bought those guns because they played the games. But the WP:GUNS guidelines are there to prevent this kind of trivia from cluttering gun articles. And like I said, if the Hitman appearance is notable, anything is. I could find a lot more than 8,000 hits for any of the pop culture trivia that has ever been added to any WP:GUN article. But in reality, I think we all know none of this is truly notable; sure, some of us find it interesting, but IMFDB is dedicated to this kind of stuff. The James Bond and Dirty Harry examples are totally different because they had a huge impact on those guns (and there are sources that say so). ROG5728 (talk) 21:58, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

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Referring to it as a clone is objectively incorrect, both in terms of the overall and specifically firearms-world meanings of clone.

UNFORTUNATELY, because AMT no longer exists, we can't whip out their website and see what they say, so I will continue to look for sources. FOR NOW, I will remove the word clone and leave the rest of the sentence as is.

How can it possibly be a clone of the original M1911 if it is different from the M1911? It is the 1911 PLATFORM, yes, you could even say it's part of the 1911 series (though that would imply the same manufacturer) but "the M1911" does not refer to the platform as a whole, it specifically refers to Colt Government Model 1911s made between the years 1911 and 1924, when they were changed and redesignated as the M1911A1.

This is very much different from that one super specific early model, and as such, is absolutely not a clone. It takes the hammer and grip safety of the A1, and has custom controls and it's own sight set ups, it was made entirely from stainless steel, unlike the originals.

If you can't say that the M1911A1 is a clone of the M1911 than why can you say that this gun is? This is no more an M1911 clone than a Toyota Tundra is a Ford F-100 clone.

Edit: also, the citation on that is a book from 2008 written by only two authors that can't be read anywhere online and is long since out of print.

Further edit: Is the Mk18 Mod 1 a clone of an M16A1? Is a Romanian PSL a clone of an AK-47? Is an AK-47 itself a clone of the Garand? Why not? By Mikhail's own words, he copied the Garand's action?

The Glock 17 Gen 1 Retro is a clone of the P80. https://tarantacticalinnovations.com/jw2-combat-master-package/ <- This thing is not.

https://www.colt.com/detail-page/col-crm16a1-556-20-30rd This is a clone of the M16A1. The aforementioned Mk18 Mod 1 is not. "But the Colt CRM16A1 isn't identical to the original because it's not select-fire!" that was a change made specifically for the purpose of being able to legally get a weapon DESIGNED TO CLONE THE ORIGINAL into the hands of civilians. Civilians would only EVER buy a CRM16A1 because they like the original M16A1 and wish they had one. Retro rifle collectors who want M16A1s are not gonna out and buy a Daniel Defense Mk18 and say "ah they're indistinguishable!".

The definition of the word clone involves "identical". The definition of replica involves "exact copy". The definition of the word copy involves "reproduce".

By no stretch of the imagination can one claim that an AMT Hardballer fits any of those three words. An identical/exact reproduction of the original? Absolutely not.

The practical firearms definition of the word clone refers to a gun THAT IS EXPLICITLY INTENDED to be as close to the original as possible while still being legally sellable to the intended market.

The clone of Dolly the sheep wasn't some scientists who are like "We want another sheep, let's clone this one", they explicitly intended to make one identical to Dolly. That was the ENTIRE point of the experiment.