Talk:Alternative school/Archive 1

Archive 1

recent edit

Regarding the last edit: first, that should not have been tagged as a minor edit by any means. The entire content of this page has been altered! Second, this merge and change seems precipitous and questionable. The rationale seems to be that the article on alternative education will take over the content that this article used to contain, while this article will now treat "alternative school" as though it meant "special-needs" school. I'd like to hear a little justification for this drastic change. What evidence is there that "special-needs school" is a more common meaning of the term than "school practicing alternative education"? Why should Wikipedia treat "alternative schools" as a phrase with a completely different meaning from "alternative education"? This seems a little euphemistic to me. I'd rather be precise in meaning, moving this content to "special-needs school" and restoring the old content here, unless there is overwhelming evidence that the common usage of the term means the opposite. At a minimum I think this is confusing enough that it needs to be put into a disambiguation header. -- Rbellin|Talk 15:38, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

First things first, my apology on the "minor edit" tag. It was a simple oversight on my part to uncheck the box. I realized it immediately, but WP provides no means to correct this simple yet seemingly world-moving error. As for the move/change—I do/did intend to post the rationale on the discussion page, but got called away from my desk. I am a participant in the WikiProject Alternative education which, by the way, your are invited to join. We are tackling the task to inventory, assess, and develop the content of articles in the new Category:Alternative education.

The dilemna: The term Alternative school and the article Alternative school do not refer to the same thing. The article describes Alternative education (while mixing it with the meaning of Independent school), while the term refers to schools for students with special needs, i.e., "at-risk" students, potential drop-outs, pregnant teens, returning students.

A solution: I proposed in project discussion that the content of the current Alt. school article be split and appropriately merged with the Alt. ed. and Ind. school articles, so that Alt. school can be used for the article about alternative or special-needs schools.

There is little-to-no information regarding which term, alternative or special needs, is more common—it appears to be fairly equal, although alternative appears to be replacing the other, mainly because the word special has come to be used pejoritavely. However, the term alternative education is well established as the most common term used to describe all forms of non-traditional education, which alt/special needs school is a type of. If special needs school has negative connotations, and alternative education has effectively covered the subject of educational alternatives, then it makes sense to use alternative school to cover the subject of special needs school. I'm sure that the appropriate use of redirects will sufficiently dispell any confusion about any of these subjects.

As to your question: "What evidence is there that 'special-needs school' is a more common meaning of the term than 'school practicing alternative education'?", there is no good answer. That kind of information is not tracked statistically. There is evidence, however, that a 'school practicing alternative education' cannot be adequately defined by a single type of school, alternative school or otherwise.

This was discussed. Only one other editor contributed to the discussion, with support. There were no objections. I proceeded. There was nothing illicit intended. Thanks, Master Scott Hall | Talk 17:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reasonable and prompt response. (And good work on the article on alternative education, which I hadn't seen until recently; it is shaping up very nicely and is a great contribution.) In general, I think it would be better to leave a proposed merge/rewrite like this open to comment for a while before doing it, but perhaps your discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Alternative education has already reached most of the interested editors. I don't think you're correct, at least not generally, that the primary meaning of "the term [alternative school] refers to schools for students with special needs". Its meaning may vary depending on the context and the specific speaker (though this is obviously insufficient evidence, "special-needs school" is not what I mean when I say "alternative school"). In the absence of evidence to the contrary about the phrase's usage, I'd suggest that both meanings of the phrase -- "school practicing alternative education" and "school for special-needs students" -- need to be covered, and disambiguated with prominent notices at the top of the articles. One good potential way to accomplish this might be to make "alternative school" into a pure disambiguation page, pointing to the article on alternative education and another article on special-needs schools, where the content you placed here would (in my opinion) fit better. But perhaps we should wait a few days before completing the change, just in case other editors want to comment on this issue. -- Rbellin|Talk 22:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the "good work" on the Alternative education article. As a focus article in the new Category:Alternative education, the WikiProject Alternative education participants have been pouring over it pretty thoroughly. I'm glad you like it. Although I do not agree entirely with your position on this, I would be okay with using Alternative school as a disambiguation page. I am a little concerned with people confusing special-needs with special education, but if special education is actually a component of special needs, along with students with other kinds of obstacles (i.e., pregnancy), then maybe there is nothing to fret. Is this what you understand to relationship between the two to be? If so, I think we can make this work. I will direct the other project editors to this discussion for some additional input before we move on it. In the meantime, if you feel up to it, visit the Project page and give us some elbow grease. Thanks, Master Scott Hall | Talk 23:12, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm generally with Master Scott on this one. Special-needs school would be just as confusing, especially since many "alternative schools" are really for incorrigible discipline problems. We shouldn't have a dab page for only two meanings, but Rbellin is right that whatever we do we should have prominent dab notices at the top. If we can think of a better name for the alternative-schools article I'm open to change. —Wahoofive (talk) 00:54, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

These articles will no doubt be affected by whatever our final decision: Alternative education, Alternative school, Special education, Special school. If we add Special needs school, that's five. How many are needed for a dab? Special needs has already been redirected to Special education. Is this accurate? The biggest problem that I am seeing is that we are lumping kids with developmental difficulties with kids with other obstacles (truancy, pregnancy, rehab from illness, etc.) together. I have never heard of putting them together in the same classes. Is it done this way? I can't imagine how that would work. I can see them being put in the same administrative category of Alternative education, but not the same physical classroom, i.e., Alternative school. Thanks, Master Scott Hall | Talk 14:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we've gotten all the input that we can hope to get. Most of the current content of this article has been covered--more accurately, and in more detail--in other existing articles. The information here is redundant, and not entirely accurate. Remember, there is no alternative education dictionary. Much of the vocabulary used is less than twenty years old and has not "settled" into easily discernible patterns. Alternative education itself is "headless", so there is no authority to turn to for a standard regarding terminology. Based on this and some further digging I've done, my recommendation would be to change this article to one about schools that cater to roughly three groups: Special education, Special-needs education (or, "high-risk"), and Gifted education. The latter is generally covered by Charter schools, Magnet schools, and the like, but in some circumstances--like states without such programs--alternative schools serve them as well. Most of the info under Types of alternative schools actually describes Independent schools, and components of School choice, and can be integrated into those articles. Thanks, Master Scott | Talk 00:03, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

While I'm basically okay with whatever other editors want to do with this article (as long as a prominent disambig notice points to Alternative education), I would still like to caution against the linguistically prescriptive and narrow stance implicit in this last message. Remember, not everyone uses the phrase "alternative school" to mean the same thing you do. The current "Types of alternative school" section describes one valid and relatively common use of the phrase -- as I said above, it means "school practicing alternative education" -- and I see no evidence that this is, as you claim, the same meaning as independent school. I think the best alternative for this page may be to turn it into a pure disambiguation page rather than trying to cover some ad-hoc mixture of all the possible meanings of the phrase. -- Rbellin|Talk 03:57, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I understand your concerns completely. Prescription is not my intent, just clarity. Making the task more difficult is the fact that in popular use, the phrase "alternative school" and the term alternative school have been attached to different things. The phrase "alternative school" is a noun with a descriptive adjective. It describes a school which teaches using alternative education. It could be phrased alternately as "school teaching alternatively", but this is awkward and inefficient grammar, so most choose the former, more susinct version. On the other hand, the term alternative school is a noun phrase which is used to describe a specific kind of school. A noun phrase is treated as a unit, or a single noun. Similarly, and perhaps more obviously, the phrase "big apple", or "apple which is big", and the noun phrase term Big Apple, or New York City, are completely different. My point is this: An article, as it stands now, is using "alternative school" as a phrase. Most, if not all, of the things that make up this article are already covered elsewhere, and under more specific and appropriate terms. The info here is, in effect, "sqatting". And, since the disambiguation police have deemed a dab page with only two meanings inappropriate, then we are left with a homeless article about the term "alternative school". While I do recognize that you've already given your okay on this action, It sounded very begrudging. I have gone to detail here, in part, to ease your mind, at least a little, about my intentions. I am not trying to be a bully here, that is not my nature. I have no problem putting a dab statement at the top, but I'm not sure where it would point, as most of the content here is actually part of several other articles. Pointing it to Alternative education is okay, but that term will be used in the opening paragraph of the article and, possibly, a couple more times in the body, as alternative school is a type thereof. Thanks, Master Scott | Talk 14:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Copyright and citation issues

Much of the content on this page is plagarized from the following websites:

• http://www.whiteriver.k12.sd.us/hs/altschool.htm
• http://www.madisonone-stop.dsu.edu/AIMWEB/goals.ht

These sites may also be copying content from another source. If the content is to remain in the article, a knowledgeable editor should rephrase the material in their own words and provide proper citations. (The article in general needs to cite its sources. For more information see WP:CITE). Nposs 04:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Alternative school and Alternative high school should be merged.

I put a merger up because alternative school and alternative high school is basically the same thing. (209.177.21.6 - Talk)

I disagree. The articles need to be worked on a little more, but an alternative school and an alternative high school are a larger, more general topic about the schools generally and more specific topic about the high schools. MrMacMan 23:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

It would make for a better sub-topic on a general Alternative school article than a separate article. Nposs 23:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Alright so 3 people participated in a discussion about a possible merger and then the article gets redirected? I think it was a bit premature so I changed it back. I tend to agree they overlap a pretty significant degree, but lets see if that is a common perception before 'merging' it. (didn't sign post ) MrMacMan 22:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

What would be the argument for keeping two separate articles? Wouldn't it make more sense to merge them and if it turns out that the high school section becomes highly differentiated - then make it a separate article. Seems like it should never have been a separate article in the first place. Nposs 22:46, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm just saying that so far 3 people have weighted on this decision... and it was made in less then 2 days. I just want to make sure someone else can have their opinion heard. MrMacMan 22:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

So are we ever going to merge these two articles? (209.177.21.6 - Talk)

I agree with 209.177.21.6. And since March, there has been no discussion, or improvement of this page to warrent two articles. The two articles are basically copies of each other. They should be merged. Epson291 00:15, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

images

I think there should also be an image of a special school. After all special schools are alternative schools too..This is an article about alternative schools...they should have all types of it. They should also include magnet schools too. (Jessica - talk)

You have yet to provide a reference that describes Special Schools as Alternative Schools. 4 days. --Brideshead 20:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Dictionary definitions

We should not begin encyclopedia articles with dictionary definitions. Can we revert this back to a proper lead section? Rhobite 04:49, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do. If you have any sources, they'd be greatly appreciated. Nposs 04:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Alternative high school → Alternative school — As it was previously mentioned, alternative schools are the more neutral term. It includes alternative schools at the elementary school level. Alternative high schools are only for high schools. --Yasdnil 17:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

This has been removed from the page as it is a proposed merger not a requested move. Dahliarose 08:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support - This seems to be a merger actually. Nonetheless, I support. --Тhε Rαnδom Eδιτor 21:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support - see my entry above Epson291 00:20, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Seriously, what?

At 23:09, on 5 April 2009, IP address 98.70.96.79 (no talk page) added exactly this: "Alternative schools in the United States are often used to segregate children with emotional disabilities and at the same time to accomodate children with discipline or deliquency problems. These schools are typically organized to serve a primarily punitive rather than educational purpose."

At the very least, this needs a huge flaming added to it, and although IANAL, it seems downright libelous. It doesn't quite fit the criteria for "Material which is doubtful and harmful", as statistically, the average alternative school in the US may well be for troubled youth, but it's definitely uncited, submitted by an IP, and rude, if nothing else. It's a little bit beyond a simple , in my personal opinion. Until the people speak, I'm adding a tag, as I feel that the results of that are probably the best option for this one, and I'm trying to do what's right here.

No, I didn't attend an alternative education facility myself, but this stinks of POV editorial to me. Pegasus Epsilon (talk) 16:19, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Apparently I somehow missed the tags that were apparently already there. I still say it needs to be promoted to and heavily discussed, though. Pegasus Epsilon (talk) 16:19, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move this page, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 08:32, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

---

Alternative school → Alternative school in the United States — Extending the discussion per request. —harej (talk) 17:27, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that alternative schools originated in the US. Other schools around the world may have copy the alternative school from US. Just google alternative school and you will see the majority of them located in the US. Esthertaffet (talk) 20:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose. Qualifying statements (like "in the United States") are only used in page names when disambiguation is necessary. Consequently, it should be just plain "Alternative school", up until the moment that we have "Alternative school", "Alternative school (United States)", "Alternative school (Asia)", and so forth. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:46, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

  Agreed.
  — V = I * R (talk) 20:24, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. I am requesting for a rename because it is necessary. I have explained in the discussion below repeatedly. Esthertaffet (talk) 17:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Is the term Alternative school used anywhere else in the world? By changing the name to Alternative school in the United States the implication is that there are schools in other countries with the same name. I suspect the terminology is unique to the US, in which case the article should continue with the current title and it should be made clear that the term is not used elsewhere. In the UK such schools are called special schools but "Alternative school" in the US seems to cover a number of different types of schools. Incidentally you have made a lot of cuts and changes to this article without discussion. What is the reason for removing magnet schools for instance? Dahliarose (talk) 11:40, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The US has their specific terminology for what an alternative school is. Every time I Google "alternative school", it only relates to the US. If it mentions other countries in the Google search, maybe that would convince me to keep the "Alternative school" title. Another user placed a global tag meaning that we need to globalize the article. I don't think that is possible. So this is why I wanted a name change as it would be easier to just talk about United States. Magnet schools are part of school choice as I mentioned in the edit summary. In the US, those schools aren't considered alternative schools. We just call them magnet schools. For example, Stuyvesant High School is considered a magnet school but it is not an alternative school. They don't ever mention that it is an alternative school on their website. Here is a link that stated Stuyvesant High School as a magnet school. [1] They didn't say anything about the school as an alternative school. Here is a school that is an alternative school. [2] They mentioned alternative school but no magnet school. So clearly, alternative school and magnet school are different. The website state that it was for potential dropouts just like all the other alternative schools in the US. Alternative schools in the US are closely associated with special schools but it has more flexibility. It's not as restrictive as a special school. It is catered to students who are at-risk of failing in school. Special schools on the other hand have students that already failed in school. That's why they go there. Esthertaffet (talk) 12:36, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

According to Alternative education#Alternative school, there were approximately 70 alternative schools in the United Kingdom in 2003. I don't think the alternative schools in UK is for students at-risk of failing but just for students who are dissatisfied with some aspect of traditional education. There is a difference between students who are dissatisfied with traditional education and those who are at-risk of failing. So perhaps, it would be good to have a name change. Esthertaffet (talk) 12:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The Education in the United Kingdom should mention alternative schools. I don't think it merits an article. It didn't really have such a strong impact like the alternative schools in the US. Esthertaffet (talk) 13:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

In the UK an alternative school would be a liberal/progressive kind of school such as Summerhill or Dartington although the term alternative school is not widely used. I think what is described here as alternative education would be called Remedial education in the UK but that article seems to be talking about something completely different in the US. Similarly the Alternative education and Homeschooling articles adopt a US centric definition and usage not much used elsewhere. Lame Name (talk) 13:52, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I am assuming you support the change from "Alternative school" to be renamed to "Alternative school in the United States". Is this assumption correct? Esthertaffet (talk) 15:06, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard the term alternative school used in the UK. The statement that there are 70 "alternative schools" in the UK is not supported by a reference. I wonder where this information came from. The whole alternative education article is very US-centric and lacking in references. Alternative school is not a term which is widely used in the UK. I note however on the Summerhill School website that it describes itself as the "original alternative 'free' school". I can't see any point in changing the title because you would then need separate articles for alternative schools in all the other countries (if any) where they exist. Perhaps it would be easier to remove the worldwide tag and just make it clear that the term is mainly used in the US. We could do with some references too. Dahliarose (talk) 17:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It probably won't be that many countries that have alternative schools. And most likely they have copied the alternative schools that originated in the US. It wouldn't be a problem creating a few articles that do have alternative schools in their specific country. We can have a new category that says Category:Alternative education by country similar to Category:Education by country. If we were to keep it under "Alternative school", I guess we can say that alternative schools originated in the United States and slowly expanded to other countries. Would that be neutral? Or if we change the title to "Alternative school in the United States", it would be more modest. We wouldn't have to say United States invented alternative schools. Everyone does things differently in each country. Esthertaffet (talk) 19:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

This is where references are needed! I don't know the answer. I can't believe that the concept was invented in the US. I suspect it's just that the terminology is specific to the US. I can't see the need for multiple articles about alternative schools in lots of different countries. There is for instance only one article on High school not lots of different articles. Similarly I don't see any need for the creation of a new category. I suggest maintaining the status quo unless further referenced information can be found. Dahliarose (talk) 23:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose There are many non-remedial alternative schools in the United States, e.g., The Traveling School. The term is widely used as a euphemism for special school, but that isn't the only appropriate use of the term. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:46, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
  • There is no reference on their website that states it is an alternative school. It has stated that it is an alternative to traditional education but that is still not specific enough. Alternative education is very broad. Esthertaffet (talk) 17:42, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Your claim sounds like support for a merger to special school instead of a good reason to move this page.
      Have you identified any non-US school that uses the label "alternative school" in a manner other than what is described in this article? Wikipedia only provides disambiguation in page names when multiple pages could legitimately have the same names. There's no "Alternative school in the US unless there's also an Alternative school in the rest of the world -- just like there's no Heart disease in the United States in the absence of Heart disease in some other country article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:45, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
      • I never said that. Special schools are slightly different to alternative schools. Most of the alternative schools in the US catered to those who are at risk of failing academically. Most of the special schools are catered to those who already failed not once but multiple of times. I googled alternative school, and the only ones I find are in the US. It's clear that alternative schools originated in the US. Esthertaffet (talk) 22:11, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
      • How can we have an "Alternative school" when the definition originated in the US? There is no global definition for alternative school when a term originated in the US. Esthertaffet (talk) 22:20, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with WhatamIdoing. There is just one generic page for "High school", despite the fact that the term has different meanings in different countries and I see no reason why an exception should be made in this case. If you think alternative schools originated in the US you need to find a reference to back up your claims, but the argument is in any case irrelevant. I suspect the term is confined to the US but that needs to be made clear within the article not in the page title. Dahliarose (talk) 00:28, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

If you google alternative school, you will find many of them in the United States. There is just one generic page for "High school" because high schools are used differently around the world. I have not found a reason to believe that "alternative school" is used differently around the world. The article only relates to the United States. If you think that you can globalize this article, then do so. If you can't, clearly it would be best to rename and move to "Alternative school in the United States". Esthertaffet (talk) 16:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

If you change the title to "Alternative school in the US" this implies that alternative schools exist in lots of other countries. You'd then have to have a separate article entitled "Alternative school" with a link to the US article, and then eventually articles for Alternative schools in countries X, Y and Z. If the globalisation tag is a problem simply remove it and make it clear in the text that the term is mainly used in the US. Dahliarose (talk) 19:27, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The global tag is on the article for a reason. Obviously, the definition for alternative school is different in every country. There is no way we can come up with a global definition in the introduction. Due to this, why can't we change the title to "Alternative school in the US"? We can create new articles for the other countries when we have sources for them. Esthertaffet (talk) 20:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the reason for the global tag was probably because it didn't mention other countries. I'm going to try and fixed the introduction. Esthertaffet (talk) 21:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

If we can't get other countries into this article, we might as well rename it to "Alternative school in the US". I put in the lead that it was used in some parts of the world, which to me is ridiculous when the article only talks about the US. How can we fix this problem? I know nothing about alternative schools in other countries. Esthertaffet (talk) 21:23, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, once again: If there is no Alternative school in some other place, then there should never be Alternative school in this particular place. The page name should be just plain Alternative school up until the moment that there are multiple articles on different kinds of alternative schools. One article = Short name.

This is a matter of Wikipedia's naming conventions. The article might be entirely about alternative schools in the United States, but until there's separate article with a confusingly similar name, we use the shortest possible name here. Do you understand? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:13, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I understand. But we still need information about alternative schools in other countries. Esthertaffet (talk) 16:34, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Then please boldly add the missing information. Don't propose renaming the article to say "Don't you dare add information about alternative schools in any country other than the US"! (That's exactly how a new editor reasonably interprets such a page name -- after all, would you add information about Asian or African schools to Special educational needs in the United Kingdom?) WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:55, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I told you I don't know other information about alternative schools in other countries. This article has been like this for years, not months. How long should we wait for this information to arrive if there are any? Esthertaffet (talk) 17:05, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

WP:There is no deadline, so "forever" is the official answer.

In practice, if, as far as you personally can tell, the only alternative schools in the world are those in the US, then the article is just fine the way it is -- and you should withdraw your proposal to rename it, and remove the {{globalize}} tag from the article, and leave it alone. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not the one who added the {{globalize}} tag. Therefore, you should ask whoever the editor that did. They said that in the UK that they have alternative schools. So it's not all US. Esthertaffet (talk) 19:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Basically what I am trying to tell you is that the article has failed to cite sources dealing with other countries. You and I know that alternative schools are in the US but others don't believe that. And the only thing we can do is rename it. Esthertaffet (talk) 19:38, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I've no idea who put the globalisation tag on the article but it seems clear from this discussion that it is unwarranted so I've removed it. If someone else has evidence from reliable sources that the term is used elsewhere then they can easily add the extra information. Dahliarose (talk) 19:47, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Good call Dahliarose. Esthertaffet, what you seem to be misunderstanding slightly is that you have just as much of a right to assert that the article is appropriately "globalized", and therefore remove the tag, as the person who added it felt that it was needed. If they had real concenrs they should have started a discussion about it here on the talk page, regardless.
— V = I * R (talk) 06:19, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.