Talk:Antisemitism
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Antisemitism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Antisemitism. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Antisemitism at the Reference desk. |
Antisemitism was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Former good article nominee |
This level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Text and/or other creative content from History of antisemitism was copied or moved into Antisemitism with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Antisemitism was copied or moved into New antisemitism with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
We know that the Semites include Arabs. Please see Antisemitism § Etymology for the history of the use of "anti-Semitism" and "antisemitism" to exclusively mean anti-Jewish sentiment. |
Do not feed the trolls! This article or its talk page has experienced trolling. The subject may be controversial or otherwise objectionable, but it is important to keep discussion on a high level. Do not get bogged down in endless debates that don't lead anywhere. Know when to deny recognition and refer to WP:PSCI, WP:FALSEBALANCE, WP:WikiVoice, or relevant notice-boards. Legal threats and trolling are never allowed! |
By topic |
This page has archives. |
Adding ‘irrational and unjustified’?[edit]
On the Wiki page about Islamophobia, Islamophobia is described as 'the irrational and unjustified fear of, hatred of, or prejudice against the religion of Islam or Muslims in general, especially when seen as a geopolitical force or a source of terrorism.'
In the intro on the Wiki about antisemitism on the other hand, the words 'irrational and unjustified' are not included.
When looked at in context one could understand this as if to say that 1) there is no such thing as rational and justified Islamophobia and/or 2) antisemitism can be rational and justified.
I think this discrepancy has to be resolved. The easiest road to travel would be to add the words 'irrational and unjustified' to the intro on the wiki page about antisemitism (think of the uproar when you would suggest leaving these words out of the intro on Islamophobia..). I have no experience in editing Wiki articles though.
What are other peoples views on this? And could someone help editing the page? Dadavalobe (talk) 20:14, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- Wise to highlight this juxtaposition given how closely linked islamophobia and anti-semitism are. 70.51.63.96 (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- That shouldn’t be in the lede for Islamophobia. I doubt sources land on a consensus definition including that caveat. Zanahary (talk) 18:26, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
POV tag: discussion regarding contemporary antisemitism and weaponization of antisemitism[edit]
The section on contemporary antisemitism, in the lede and the main body, does not appear to describe the parallel phenomenon of weaponization of antisemitism. Is there a reason for this? Without mention of this parallel phenomenon the article's description of contemporary antisemitism is unbalanced. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- A parallel phenomenon? Says who? Why should it deserve significant weight in this lead? I noticed you just created this article a few weeks ago. "Weaponization" is not widely recognized or commonly discussed when addressing antisemitism from an encyclopedic perspective. I don't see why it should be mentioned in the lead for this extremely important and widely researched topic as if it was a notable main topic. It's certainly not. HaOfa (talk) 18:23, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- The lede currently says (and the body follows):
In the contemporary era, a manifestation known as "new antisemitism" was identified. This concept argues the exploitation of the Arab–Israeli conflict by a large number of concealed antisemites, who may attempt to gain traction or legitimacy for their antisemitic hoaxes by portraying themselves as criticizing the Israeli government's actions.[15]Likewise, as the State of Israel has a Jewish-majority population, it is common for antisemitic rhetoric to be manifested in expressions of anti-Israeli sentiment,[16][17]though this is not always the case and such expressions may sometimes be part of wider anti–Middle Eastern sentimentwithout an exclusively antisemitic motive.[18]
- This concept described here, in a large number of scholarly publications, is mirrored by the suggestion that this "new antisemitism" was coined and exaggerated for the purpose of silencing political debate about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Both phenomena are real phenomena, i.e. there really is antisemitism driven by or concealed by anti-Zionism, and there really is weaponization of false antisemitism claims in order to silence anti-Zionists.
- Describing one side of this phenomenon, without the other, is clear POV – the sources treat them together, and so should we. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:17, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Equally: why does our article on racism not mention playing the race card? Why does our article on rape not give lots of space to False accusation of rape? Why does our article on climate change not mention climate change denial in the lead? Because these are not "parallel phenomena". Antisemitism has a long history and played a major role in world history; so-called "weaponisation" is something a few people have written about recently. BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:05, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- However, I agree that new antisemitism gets too much space in the lead, and also note it's worded really weirdly. Why is the word "hoaxes" there? Presumably that should be "tropes"? BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- It definitely shouldn't occupy an entire paragraph out of four - that is ridiculously disproportionate and undue. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:49, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- However, I agree that new antisemitism gets too much space in the lead, and also note it's worded really weirdly. Why is the word "hoaxes" there? Presumably that should be "tropes"? BobFromBrockley (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
Whatever the "phenomenon" of "weaponization of antisemitism" is, it most certainly does not meet the threshold to be mentioned in the lede of this article.
Editors should be aware this POV tag was placed by the article creator and principal author/contributor of weaponization of antisemitism, which is currently both under a renaming discussion as well as a neutrality dispute pertaining to both its title and definition/article scope.
Given the above neutrality and title disputes (along with WP:POVNAME and WP:FRINGE accusations which have been (2) on the "weaponization" page almost as long as the article has existed), the insertion of this tag could be construed as a WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:GAMING bad faith response to those long standing neutrality discussions (if not an attempt to WP:FORUMSHOP and WP:SOAPBOX an item under currently WP:FRINGE accusation).
This tag should be removed immediately and initiating editor should follow normal procedure and attempt to include items cleanly supported by RS instead of dragging us (and this article) into a pre-litigation around a clearly contested topic. There are no grounds to contest the neutrality of the page based on the initiating argument. Mistamystery (talk) 15:46, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Both of which "disputes" were initiated primarily by your good self, just sayin' Selfstudier (talk) 15:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- Not true. Only an informal poll and a POV tag were (recently) initiated by me in response to multiple and lengthy renaming and neutrality discussions - none of which I initiated myself (nor the recent RM, which you yourself initiated...just sayin' ;) Mistamystery (talk) 16:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
- According to WP:LEAD, the lead section should summarize the most important points covered in an article in a concise manner. The "weaponization of antisemitism" is not central to the broader topic of the article, which deals with the millennia-old plus phenomenon of antisemitism. The idea to devote significant portions of the little real estate we have in the lead to these accusations is ridiculous. Marokwitz (talk) 19:58, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
I'm shocked. A new, non-neutral, controversial article has been created. And now there are those who try to promote it in questionable ways. This tag should be removed immediately. This is an inappropriate way of working in my opinion and it looks very bad. Eladkarmel (talk) 07:23, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- A "non-neutral, controversial article" is a far better description of other recent creations, not least the daft absurdities that are Calls for the destruction of Israel, Use of human shields by Hamas and the like – as opposed to the very common currency term and definitely academic topic that is the weaponization of antisemitism (accusations). Iskandar323 (talk) 18:15, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- You should bring those articles to AfD if you find them to be "daft absurdities". Not really relevant to this discussion. Zanahary (talk) 20:57, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Depends if you consider the authorship and if you think editors should have a modicum of consistency in their editing. Any comments that also consist largely of personal opinion are also in principle largely irrelevant. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- You should bring those articles to AfD if you find them to be "daft absurdities". Not really relevant to this discussion. Zanahary (talk) 20:57, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Semitism ... "policy or predisposition favorable to Jews" ... Merriam-Webster[edit]
Suggested edit ... New Section ... Definition of Semitism
"policy or predisposition favorable to Jews"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Semitism
https://imemc.org/article/the-law-of-return-and-the-zionist-campaign-to-subvert-science/ 2601:444:300:B070:C400:B2D4:8181:4DBC (talk) 00:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Philosemitism is probably the term you’re looking for Zanahary (talk) 05:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Absent additional sources substantiating and/or analyzing this usage, this seems like an archaic term that is WP:UNDUE to mention in the context of the article. signed, Rosguill talk 14:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Another example ...
- "Yes, I am convinced that I have articulated what millions of Jews are quietly thinking: World domination belongs to Semitism!"
- Marr, Wilhelm. Der Sieg des Judenthums über das Germanenthum. Vom nicht confessionellen Standpunkt aus betrachtet. Rudolph Costenoble. 1879, 8th edition/printing. Internet Archive. Marr uses the word "Semitismus" (Semitism) on pages 7, 11, 14, 30, 32, and 46; for example, one finds in the conclusion the following passage: "Ja, ich bin überzeugt, ich habe ausgesprochen, was Millionen Juden im Stillen denken: Dem Semitismus gehört die Weltherrschaft!" (Yes, I am convinced that I have articulated what millions of Jews are quietly thinking: World domination belongs to Semitism!) 2601:444:300:B070:C400:B2D4:8181:4DBC (talk) 16:35, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Seems pretty important. That’s six pages! Zanahary (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- More examples ...
- The word antisemitism was coined from the word semitism. Also IHRA denies there is such a word as semitism. All these examples are in this Wikipedia article. So, why deny that the word semitism exists as the opposite of the word antisemitism?
- "This use of Semitismus was followed by a coining of "Antisemitismus" which was used to indicate opposition to the Jews as a people"
- "The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance has stated that the spelling without hyphenation is preferred, because the spelling with hyphenation implies that "Semitism" is a valid concept." 2601:444:300:B070:C400:B2D4:8181:4DBC (talk) 19:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- These quotations support that “Semitism” is not a real concept. But anyways, try reading WP:DUEWEIGHT. Zanahary (talk) 07:24, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Seems pretty important. That’s six pages! Zanahary (talk) 18:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
This Article Needs Review and Maybe Replacement[edit]
The text of this article contains deep subtexts of racism and political bias. It need to be reviewed immediately. The wording of this article could lead to very real crimes 2605:A601:AF6C:1700:A915:DB4F:28EA:266A (talk) 21:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Do you seriously expect anyone to take the slightest notice of such evidence-free assertions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:52, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
The difference between "anti-Semitism" and "antisemitism" should be made more clear in the article.[edit]
I fear that many users online will read the first paragraph and believe that all of those spellings are considered proper and acceptable, and may not use the Note icon to find the info suggesting otherwise, or read further to find the "Usage" section describing the discrepancies, deeper in the article.
I believe it is important to emphasize the discrepancies and make it as first and foremost as possible in the article. If my search results reveal anything, it's that we may be the only people doing so. Even Britannica has the non-proper spelling in my searches. - TheVGMLover 2607:FEA8:A99F:D600:1D1B:7F38:F2F8:3995 (talk) 14:08, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- All the spellings are considered proper and acceptable. The footnote indicates a preference, not a rule. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 14:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia controversial topics
- Former good article nominees
- B-Class vital articles
- Wikipedia level-5 vital articles
- Wikipedia vital articles in Society and social sciences
- B-Class level-5 vital articles
- Wikipedia level-5 vital articles in Society and social sciences
- B-Class vital articles in Society and social sciences
- B-Class Religion articles
- Top-importance Religion articles
- WikiProject Religion articles
- B-Class Judaism articles
- Top-importance Judaism articles
- B-Class Jewish history-related articles
- Top-importance Jewish history-related articles
- WikiProject Jewish history articles
- B-Class Israel-related articles
- Top-importance Israel-related articles
- WikiProject Israel articles
- B-Class Ethnic groups articles
- High-importance Ethnic groups articles
- WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
- B-Class Discrimination articles
- High-importance Discrimination articles
- WikiProject Discrimination articles
- B-Class history articles
- High-importance history articles
- WikiProject History articles
- B-Class European history articles
- High-importance European history articles
- All WikiProject European history pages
- B-Class Middle Ages articles
- High-importance Middle Ages articles
- All WikiProject Middle Ages pages
- B-Class Christianity articles
- Top-importance Christianity articles
- WikiProject Christianity articles