Talk:Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia/Archive 2

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ultranationalism of asala

In the first paragraph only ideology listed is just marxism but the most of documents shows us ASALA is ultranationalist[1] organization. For neutrality policy of wiki this part have to add. İsyankar18 (talk) 11:43, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

İsyankar18, you have provided one source, which is one source and not most sources. Which makes it a WP:FRINGE term, not a widely accepted neutral term. You can add it if you provide more high quality sources. - Kevo327 (talk) 17:12, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Support in Europe and USA

I'd rather talk this here rather than getting into a reversion back and forth and I hope people concerned do so as well, otherwise I will revert it if no voices are raised in here. The content in question is:

The group received considerable[vague] clandestine support from the Armenian diaspora in Europe and in the United States.[1]

The source has a designated entry for ASALA and provides in depth information. The wording is not *too* vague, even if it was, good editorial work would be to rephrase until further research rather than redacting a critical piece of information such as this. There is also more sources regarding diaspora support which I will happily cite with a more detailed sentence in its place:[2][3][4]DriedGrape (talk) 02:12, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

It had a non-zero number of supporters in the Armenian diaspora, but so far I don't see any source that supports "considerable" or "many". (t · c) buidhe 18:21, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Which is why I removed considerable, but the amount of supporters is arguably "many". Again, I wish you'd stop trying to drag this into a revert war and instead suggested wording changes. This is crucial information for the article and as such, should be included one way or the other. Also, Michael Gunter, one of the sources cited quotes: "Tacitly supported by many Armenians and others throughout the world". So I don't know if you bothered to properly examine the sources.
@Buidhe and it's not like the source(s) DriedGrape linked are neutral either. I just had a quick glance and already noticed the Armenian Terrorism in the Twentieth Century book, from a genocide denier Michael Gunter, see Michael_Gunter#Controversies. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:39, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
I don't see any mention of ASALA in the article you linked. This is not about Armenian Genocide. Refer to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Either way, this is exactly why I placed multiple sources.
Relying just on Gunter for this WP:EXTRAORDINARY claim (yes, it's extraordinary to claim that a militant group has many supporters) especially when it's contradicted by the other (Britannica) source is not suitable for NPOV. (t · c) buidhe 21:34, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
"(yes, it's extraordinary to claim that a militant group has many supporters)" How so? Doesn't Al-Qaeda and PKK have many supporters as well? The content does not rely on just Gunter. And it is not contradicted by the other sources. As Gunn wrote "ASALA and the ARF/JCAG operated for over a decade, and were able to sustain themselves because of the steadfast support of the Armenian diaspora". This alone means that this specific militant group also had many supporters which helped it operate for over a decade.
So the Islamic State article should say, "Many Muslims around the world support IS"? Can't you see how such a statement is wrong, or at best misleading? Did you know that apparently 23 million Egyptian Muslims think suicide bombing is sometimes justified "in order to defend Islam from its enemies"? Isn't that a lot of support for terrorism? (t · c) buidhe 00:19, 25 September 2021 (UTC)
@DriedGrape You're adding another biased source, see this discussion in RS noticeboard about Gunn. Most of the editors agreed that Gunn is very biased and promotes almost entirely undue claims, the exact book you added was in question. Please consider reverting yourself [2]. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 22:09, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. I have briefly read through the discussion you mentioned and it seems only a handful of editors claimed he was biased while the rest were objected to his exclusion as a reliable source. No consensus was achieved towards labeling him as biased, in fact the opposite. I shall not revert the source in question, you're welcome to present reliable sources yourself.DriedGrape (talk) 22:28, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Pretty sure majority of the editors agreed about his bias (even the ones who were for his attributed inclusion) and most opposed to his reliableness. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 23:26, 13 September 2021 (UTC)
Unfortunately, no consensus was reached on the page so you cannot claim any agreement took place.DriedGrape (talk) 23:31, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@Mikehawk10Hi, the content you reverted was stable and in the article for much longer than necessary for it to be considered safe. I improved the already existing content after it was double reverted due to WP:VAGUE and re-added it with more sources and clearer wording. The edit is not recent and only contested recently by two editors, the initial concerns of which were met.DriedGrape (talk) 23:43, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

You're correct with respect to the stability of the base content; my apologies for not following the edit history quite right and for the misinformed edit summary. I would respond to the notion that the initial concerns of the editors have been assuaged by saying that there are substantial questions posed above about sourcing, and it might be wise to go to WP:RSN to get additional feedback. However, because I honestly do not know the whole Armenian genocide denial and Armenian history topic areas very well, I'm going to self-revert rather than attempting to re-assert my edit by substantially evaluating sources outside of my scope of knowledge. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 23:56, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Kushner, Harvey W. (2003). Encyclopedia of terrorism. SAGE. p. 47. ISBN 9780761924081.
  2. ^ "Sudden desistance from terrorism: The Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia and the Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide". The pivotal historical event in our analysis is an especially brutal attack on Paris's Orly Airport in 1983, which we believe undermined the legitimacy of ASALA among its supporters in the Armenian diaspora and in the West. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)
  3. ^ Sullivan, Colleen. "Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia". Encyclopedia Britannica, 2 Aug. 2011, https://www.britannica.com/topic/Armenian-Secret-Army-for-the-Liberation-of-Armenia. Accessed 13 September 2021.
  4. ^ Armenian Terrorism in the Twentieth Century.

Category anti-Turkism

I believe that it is obvious that since this organization targeted exclusively Turkish diplomats and civilians (though not hesitating to kill other nationals when they got in the way), then this category is appropriate here. Clearly, ASALA had no other motivation than hatred for Turkish state and Turkish people. Thoughts? Grandmaster 15:25, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

I think that all categories need a verifiable source that backs them up. It should not be based on inference or original research (t · c) buidhe 15:40, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
Yes, you are absolutely right. Is this a good source, mentioning Anti-Turkish, Armenian Terrorism [3]? Or this one, referring to ASALA (International Armenian terrorist group, anti-Turkish) [4]? Grandmaster 17:05, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
Is this a good source - No. Looks like the author puts "anti-X" under all of his subsections (for example anti-Yugoslav for Croatian terrorism), and he doesn't mention hatred for Turkish people just for being Turkish as you're implying in your opening comment. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:10, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
How about the second one? Grandmaster 18:30, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
I'll look into it and answer in the next 24hrs. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:21, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
But additionally without checking that second source yet, I have to agree with below comment that one source isn't enough per UNDUE if most neutral sources state that organization's goal is the recognition of Armenian genocide by Turkish government and subsequent reparations. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:54, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
I had the time to check the second source now. And not really surprisingly, once again it doesn't say that Turks were targeted for being Turks. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 00:45, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
Source: Grandmaster. Seriously tho, "Turkophobia is hostility, intolerance, or racism against Turkish or Turkic people, Turkish culture, or Turkic countries." ASALA's hate was toward the Turkish government and its policy of denial within and beyond Turkey. It is the Turk-Az governments who try to make this conflict ethnic based and not ideolog/history based.--217.149.166.11 (talk) 15:41, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
ASALA indiscriminately targeted Turkish nationals, like in Esenboga airport attack. So it is not just about the hate for a government. Grandmaster 17:05, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
cherrypicking doesn't help the argument. A majority of sources is needed for this, otherwise the category is either undue or WP:FRINGE, the organization themselves clearly specified their goals and justifications which didn't include hatred, racism or intolerance, and most neutral sources agree with that. - Kevo327 (talk) 20:33, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 January 2019 and 21 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): QualityCabbage.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 14:43, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect / incomplete definition of the ASALA.

ASALA was not just militant organization, ASALA was international terrorist organization / group. Responsible for the number of terrorist attacks resulted in deaths and injure of hundreds people around the globe.

Here are the sources proving above statement:

1. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Armenian-Secret-Army-for-the-Liberation-of-Armenia

Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA), terrorist group formed in 1975 to force Turkey to admit its guilt for the Armenian Genocide of 1915–16.

2. John E. Jessup. An encyclopedic dictionary of conflict and conflict resolution, 1945—1996. Greenwood Publishing Group, 1998. ISBN 0-313-28112-2, ISBN 978-0-313-28112-9, p. 39

3. Michel Wieviorka, David Gordon White. The making of terrorism. University of Chicago Press, 1993. ISBN 0-226-89650-1, ISBN 978-0-226-89650-2, p. 256

4. Bruce Hoffman. Inside terrorism. Columbia University Press, 2006. ISBN 0-231-12699-9, ISBN 978-0-231-12699-1, p. 71

5. Arthur E. Gerringer. Terrorism: From One Millennium to the Next. — 2002. — С. 239. — 548 с. — ISBN 0595242863, 9780595242863.

6. Rouben Paul Adalian. Historical Dictionary of Armenia. — Scarecrow Press, 2010. — С. 169. — 750 с. — ISBN 9780810874503.

7. Terrorist Group Profiles. — DIANE Publishing, 1989. — С. 32. — 131 с. — ISBN 9781568068640.

8. Gérard Chaliand and Arnaud Blin. The History of Terrorism from Antiquity to Al Qaeda. — University of California Press, 2007. — С. 38. — ISBN 978-0-520-24533-4.

9. Harvey W. Kushner. Encyclopedia of Terrorism. — Sage Publications, 2003. — С. 46. — ISBN 0-7619-2408-6.

10. Sean K. Anderson, Stephen Sloan. Historical Dictionary of Terrorism. — The Scarecrow Press, Inc., 2009. — С. 48. — ISBN 978-0-8108-5764-3, 978-0-8108-6311-8.

11. Laura Dugana, Julie Y.Huang, Gary LaFree, Clark McCauley. Sudden desistance from terrorism: The Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia and the Justice Commandos of the Armenian Genocide. — Taylor & Francis, 2008. — С. 231—249.

12. Bonnie Cordes, Bruce Hoffman, Brian M. Jenkins, Konrad Kellen, Sue Moran, William Sater. Trends in International Terrorism, 1982 and 1983. — RAND, 1984. — С. 5.

13. Anthony Kellett, Bruce Beanlands, James Deacon. Terrorism in Canada 1960-1989. — С. 65—66. — ISBN 0-662-18303-7.


Moreover, ASALA was included to the list of terrorist organizations of the USA by the Unites States Department of State. Source: United States Department of State. Patterns of Global Terrorism Report: 1989, p 57

Considering above provided information I propose to change definition to following: Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia (ASALA) was a Marxist-Leninist terrorist organization active between 1975 and the 1990s.

If any objections, then please provide valid reasoning and justification why fact that ASALA was an terrorist organization should not be reflected on it's definition. I will wait for a month to listen any objections, in case if there will not be any objections I will update the article accordingly. Thanks. --Abrvagl (talk) 06:27, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

MOS:LABEL means that we don't label organizations "terrorist" in wikivoice since that is a matter of opinion. Not all reliable sources call asala a terrorist organization either. (t · c) buidhe 07:22, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Dear buidhe, 1. [MOS:LABEL]] does not mandate to not use "terrorist organization" to describe terrorist organizations, it demands to "Avoid myth in its informal sense, and establish the scholarly context for any formal use of the term.". In this case ASALA is recognized as terrorist organization and I provided list of reliable WP:SECONDARY sources. So it is not opinion for informal use, but established fact. Moreover, [MOS:LABEL]] specify to watch use of term "terrorist" against individuals, not organizations.

2. Majority of reliable sources categorize ASALA as terrorist organization, I provided 14 of them above. Even United States Department of State included ASALA to the list of terrorist organizations. Moreover, here is the list of the terrorist attacks conducted by ASALA [[5]]. Who conducts terrorist attacks? yes, terrorist organizations.

So I still waiting for any justified objection. --Abrvagl (talk) 09:56, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Per MOS:TERRORIST we are required to use in-text attribution, not state as fact. That's a fully justified objection, which can't be simply swept aside. FDW777 (talk) 10:52, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Dear FDW777, I spent the time reviewing all other terrorist organization's descriptions on the Wikipedia. Majority of them described as militant rather than terrorist organizations. Therefore, although MOS:TERRORIST is no applicable to the case, I would agree to keep militant instead of terrorist organization to keep consistentancy with majority of articles. Dispute is closed. Thanks for your time and efforts. --Abrvagl (talk) 15:35, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

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