Talk:Ashkenazi Jews

More Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2024

For the same reason as above, I request that the section Ashkenazi_Jews#Ashkenazic liturgy be removed, or sourced within a reasonable time. 2601:204:F100:83B0:E1C4:4964:FC7F:5162 (talk) 11:17, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done. These statements are both true and uncontroversial. A more productive approach would be to find sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:00, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Southern european

Why does it say southern european at the start when the genetics section shows eastern european origins. 103.146.137.190 (talk) 09:21, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2024 ... The Origins of Ashkenaz, Ashkenazic Jews, and Yiddish

Please change this...

constitute a Jewish diaspora population that emerged in the Holy Roman Empire around the end of the first millennium CE.[8]

To this...

are not a Jewish diaspora population but one that emerged in a region in northeastern Turkey that harbors four primeval villages whose names resemble Ashkenaz.

See...

"The non-Levantine origin of AJs is further supported by an ancient DNA analysis of six Natufians and a Levantine Neolithic (Lazaridis et al., 2016), some of the most likely Judaean progenitors (Finkelstein and Silberman, 2002; Frendo, 2004). In a principle component analysis (PCA), the ancient Levantines clustered predominantly with modern-day Palestinians and Bedouins and marginally overlapped with Arabian Jews, whereas AJs clustered away from Levantine individuals and adjacent to Neolithic Anatolians and Late Neolithic and Bronze Age Europeans."

"The meaning of the term “Ashkenaz” and the geographical origins of AJs and Yiddish are some of the longest standing questions in history, genetics, and linguistics. In our previous work we have identified “ancient Ashkenaz,” a region in northeastern Turkey that harbors four primeval villages whose names resemble Ashkenaz. Here, we elaborate on the meaning of this term and argue that it acquired its modern meaning only after a critical mass of Ashkenazic Jews arrived in Germany. We show that all bio-localization analyses have localized AJs to Turkey and that the non-Levantine origins of AJs are supported by ancient genome analyses. Overall, these findings are compatible with the hypothesis of an Irano-Turko-Slavic origin for AJs and a Slavic origin for Yiddish and contradict the predictions of Rhineland hypothesis that lacks historical, genetic, and linguistic support (Table 1)." 2601:444:300:B070:F8FC:776F:48EC:78C7 (talk) 16:46, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

That study represents a minority view. The majority of studies and scholars, who have published on that topic, conclude very differently. And Elhaik's work in that area has also been substantially criticized by others in the field. Your proposal would be highly WP:UNDUE. It would not make sense, and would be against Wikipedia policy, to atlar the article so that it reflects or endorses a minority and arguably WP:FRINGE position. Skllagyook (talk) 18:49, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

You said that before and you were overturned ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Genetic_studies_of_Jews&diff=1221590721&oldid=1221574697

Also see ...

In terms of pure theory, Elhaik has published a critique of the methodology of PCA that undergirds the whole structure of population genetics. Re-analyzing 12 PCA applications he found that the method lends itself to generating desired outcomes, and is characterized by cherrypicking and circular reasoning. The design flexibility of PCA enables anyone to buttress preconceived claims about ethnogenesis. He illustrated the point by instancing the case of genetic studies of the origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Of some 21,840 papers published by Nature Portfolio in 2022, this paper was ranked among the top 100 downloaded scientific papers for that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eran_Elhaik#Research 2601:444:300:B070:F8FC:776F:48EC:78C7 (talk) 19:25, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

What you are proposing here is replacing the language of the lede/article, which reflects the majority of research and is supported by multiple references of reliable sources (WP:RS), with a minority opinion. That is quite different from what you did before at the other article. (And your previous edits there may possibly merit further discussion - with more editors involved). But as I explained earlier, being frequently downloaded is not the same as being widely supported by relevant experts. What you are proposing here clearly violates Wikipedia policies as I explained above. (Please see the links in my first reply). Skllagyook (talk) 19:41, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Also See ... The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis

"A reevaluation of the anthropological genetics literature on Jewish populations reveals them not simply to be a body of genetically related people descending from a small group of common ancestors, but rather a “mosaic” of peoples of diverse origins. Greek and other pre-medieval historiographic sources suggest the patterning evident in recent genetic studies could be explained by a major contribution from Greco-Roman and Anatolian-Byzantine converts who affiliated themselves with some iteration of Judaism beginning in the first and second centuries ce and continuing into the Middle Ages. These populations, along with Babylonian and Alexandrian Jewish communities, indigenous North Africans, and Slavic-speaking converts to Judaism, support a mosaic geography of Jewish ancestry in Europe and Western Asia, rather than one arising from a limited set of lineages originating solely in Palestine."

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/702709

Or search... The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis.pdf 2601:444:300:B070:F8FC:776F:48EC:78C7 (talk) 21:37, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

This paper's section on Yiddish, to be frank, is complete gibberish and discredits every scholar involved. They admit that all Yiddish loanwords from Persian are best explained by classical Talmudic references and then somehow pretend this is evidence in their favor. The Slavic portion of the theory (which is not explained in this paper) is even more laughable. None of the authors have the slightest clue how to determine a genetic relationship between languages (see "Essays in Linguistics" by Joseph H. Greenberg, p. 35-74 for a good overview on the relevant principles). GordonGlottal (talk) 04:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

GordonGlottal, that IP editor is now blocked as the sock of a troll, but I decided to leave this section here because your comments may be useful to other readers. Drmies (talk) 12:56, 6 May 2024 (UTC)