Talk:Battle of Kharkiv (2022)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Date correction suggestion

Since the battle is "ongoing" shouldn't the date say "24 February 2022 – present"?

It's not over. Some editors think since the Ukrainian governor says they repelled one Russian assault on the city, the whole battle for it is suddenly over and that the Russians will never try again, even though that's not how warfare and capturing cities work. If you change it to present/ongoing you need a source stating clashes are ongoing, so we don't have to make a whole separate article each time the Ukrainians repel a single ground assault. RopeTricks (talk) 19:49, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 March 2022

Add "96th Separate Reconnaissance Brigade[1]" under 4th Guards Tank Division Pocketlite20 (talk) 02:45, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Could you clarify where in the source it supports that? A cursory Ctrl+F finds nothing. It's unfortunate that this page is ECP when you have been an active contributor to Ukraine invasion-related articles prior to the page being protected. Sadly you aren't at all likely to get one from WP:PERM/EC: Unless you are requesting confirmation for a legitimate alternate account your request will almost certainly be denied. SWinxy (talk) 00:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 Not done: as per comment above P1221 (talk) 10:00, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-february-28-2022

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 March 2022 (2)

At the article summary, it is stated that the city is 20 miles from the Russian border. Can you also convert it to km? RGoes (talk) 12:29, 1 March 2022 (UTC) RGoes (talk) 12:29, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

 Done CoronalMassAffection (talk) 22:37, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Outcome

for the last two days there isnt a battle that is happening. the only news is that there had been some missile strikes. so i would like to change the outcome of the battle to ukrainian victory as they were able to rapidly rappelled the enemy advances 176.216.190.220 (talk) 14:51, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Kharkiv surrounded?

Many sources, including the mayor of the city, say the city has been surrounded by Russian forces

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2022/03/01/ukraine-russia-invasion-live-updates/9327835002/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/03/01/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/ https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1498689670581997569

StSeanSpicer (talk) 17:19, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Russian victory claim

There is a claim in the article with no source claiming that Russian forces had taken over the city. Can someone with edit permissions fix that?Nobodyhere986 (talk) 22:31, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

BBC World News (live) claimed y-day late in the evening (“breaking news”) that the city was under RU control, accompanied by videos of RU troops/hardware in the city and mayor's statement. Yet, later they didn't repeat the claim...☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 07:02, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:52, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 March 2022

Could someone delete the two curly brackets in the line before "width = 315"? The most recent edit broke something. Endwise (talk) 11:48, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Nevermind, fixed by Kosack – thanks. Endwise (talk) 13:45, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Misplaced tag

There's an unfinished tag at the start of the article that should be removed. (| width = 315}}) FinTheKnight (talk) 13:09, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

NO radiation leak

Misquoted ref.61 79.136.35.71 (talk) 06:38, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Fixed. Brandon (talk) 07:51, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

To which theatre of war does this battle belong?

To the Eastern Ukraine offensive or the Northeastern Ukraine offensive?Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:34, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Probably Northeast. Dawsongfg (talk) 02:10, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Northeast. Curbon7 (talk) 09:08, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
Own offensive 68.132.133.66 (talk) 12:26, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Sources? Cinderella157 (talk)

Russians Repelled

Could anybody add the repelling? Sources: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/russian-attempt-to-push-into-kharkiv-rebuffed-local-official/ https://www.newsmax.com/world/globaltalk/Russia-Ukraine-War-The-Latest/2022/03/15/id/1061361/ and https://www.timesdaily.com/life/live-updates-ukraine-says-its-troops-repel-kharkiv-attack/article_af570a75-c2aa-557f-93e0-ec5228a92362.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dawsongfg (talk • contribs) 01:28, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:22, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

"Naveen Shekharappa Gyanagoudar" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Naveen Shekharappa Gyanagoudar and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 31#Naveen Shekharappa Gyanagoudar until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. signed, Rosguill talk 14:44, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Stalingrad comparison

I realise that in the midst of a horrible war, any edits of articles covering important aspects of it are very sensitive, but after careful thought I have removed a sentence comment from the Header Section: it referred to a comment of an advisor to the Ukrainian President (not even the President himself), describing the Battle of Kharkiv as “the Stalingrad of the 21st Century”. The fact that one person said that does not make it worthy of a mention in the main header section, however tragic and appalling the battle itself might be (and undoubtedly has been).

Putting the comparison comment right near the top of the article creates a wholly misleading impression of the nature scale of the conflict: According to this Wikipedia article, I see a current casualty count of 76 Ukrainian military deaths as of 7th March) and 234 to 500 civilian deaths. Russian deaths are uncounted here, but considering that Russian deaths for the whole of the war since invasion are, (using Wikipedia casualties list for the war), between 2930 (Russian/Dontesk PR sources) and 19600 (Ukrainian sources) so far, the Kharkiv Russian losses are probably in the hundreds or lower thousands.

In Stalingrad, Wikipedia is suggesting roughly 2 million deaths for both sides in total. Moreover, Stalingrad was a siege lasting five months. Pray God this battle will not last that long, but if it does, we can consider then whether a comparison between Kharkiv and Stalingrad is at all remotely justified. However understandable the emotional rhetoric of Ukrainian politicians might be, Wikipedia needs to keep to the facts.

If some editor thinks it important to mention the comparison quote, because it triggered some important discussion, then it could perhaps be restored somewhere further down the article, in context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Northtowner (talk • contribs) 17:45, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 16 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) NW1223<Howl at me•My hunts> 20:31, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Battle of Kharkiv (2022) → Kharkiv offensive – Please place your rationale for the proposed move here. Panam2014 (talk) 19:11, 16 April 2022 (UTC) Not yet a battle for the city, but an offensive in the oblast.

  • Oppose  The battle for encirclement of this city is part of the Northeastern Ukraine offensive (as explained in the first sentence). Maybe the overall organization of these and other articles can be improved with coordination, but this proposal is not it. —Michael Z. 15:35, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
    @Mzajac: currently there are no battle for Kharkiv, there are bombing/airstrikes. Panam2014 (talk) 17:08, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
    BBC reported on the battle in early March.[1] More recently, according to Ukrainian intelligence head Kyrylo Budanov, “in eastern Ukraine, Russian troops are regrouping with the aim of resuming offensive on Kharkiv,” and per the head of the Kharkiv Regional Military Administration Oleh Syniehubov, “the invaders here lost a fairly large amount of manpower, a lot of armored vehicles, aviation,”[2] and “Ukrainian defenders are conducting several successful operations in the region, pushing back Russian forces from the regional center.”[3] —Michael Z. 18:18, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
    “Ukraine seized the Kharkiv region towns of Bazaliyivka and Lebiazhe, as well as part of Kutuzivka, local governor Oleh Sinyehubov said Sunday. If confirmed, this means Russian supply lines between the Russian city of Belgorod and Izyum have been severed.”[4] —Michael Z. 23:36, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
    Oppose Let's not forget that the troops were at one point in the city (I think). Dawsongfg (talk) 01:37, 20 April 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose this has to be one of the worst move proposals I've seen. It is completely meaningless and not substantiated by any sources. Curbon7 (talk) 17:45, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Question A "battle" need not be for a city. It could be for a region (isn't Kharkiv also the name of the region?) or it could be named because it is close to a locality. What is the rationale and evidence that either title most satisfies the criteria at WP:AT? I am not yet convinced that either alternative is the best title per WP:P&G. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:10, 23 April 2022 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Battle of bombing

Hi I think, like to 2022 bombing of Odessa, it is not a battle, it is a bombing. --Panam2014 (talk) 04:13, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

I believe it is a battle by Russian forces to encircle and then besiege the city (so far unsuccessful). —Michael Z. 15:38, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
And they haven't gotten near it. Dawsongfg (talk) 01:38, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Battle of Kherson which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:23, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Outdated introduction

The sentence "The battle has been described as one of the deadliest battles in the invasion so far," is citing an article from March 2, 6 days after the invasion. It has been almost 70 days now; I think it's old. Nythar (talk) 06:48, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion for a replacement sentence ? Laurel Lodged (talk) 09:30, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
I don't know. From what I've read about the battle, casualties aren't the most reported detail. But like I said above, it's very outdated. Is there a need for a replacement? Nythar (talk) 10:04, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
I have removed the sentence. Nurg (talk) 03:43, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Battle of Kharkiv (2022)

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Battle of Kharkiv (2022)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "auto":

  • From 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine: Bielieskov, Mykola (21 September 2021). "The Russian and Ukrainian Spring 2021 War Scare". Center for Strategic & International Studies. Retrieved 25 November 2021.
  • From Azerbaijan: The State Statistical Committee of the Azerbaijan Republic, The ethnic composition of the population according to the 2009 census. azstat.org

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 11:12, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Battle of Kharkiv (2022)

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Battle of Kharkiv (2022)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "auto2":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 11:54, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Map of the fullest extent of Russian advance

Now that the Russians are pulling back, it would be useful to have a 2nd map, a snapshot of the fullest extent of Russian advance, if we have a mapmaker capable and willing. Nurg (talk) 03:49, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

That's the dashed lines on the map (even though not all are there). Dawsongfg (talk) 01:11, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Not dashed, more like dotted. Dawsongfg (talk) 01:12, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Why would this 2nd map be useful? Starship SN20 (talk) 10:01, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Capitalisation of "battle" in "battle of Kharkiv"

The initial letter of the title is only capitalised in running text if it would normally be capitalised. Per MOS:CAPS: Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization. In English, capitalization is primarily needed for proper names, acronyms, and for the first letter of a sentence. Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia. Per MOS:CAPS, the burden is to show that capitalisation is necessary in accordance with the criteria of MOS:CAPS. Looking at news sources here, it appears to fall well short of the high threshold set by MOS:CAPS. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:44, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

DarkNebula622, per MOS:CAPS the WP:BURDEN is to show that caps are necessary. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:45, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Victory or Not

Let's discuss HERE whether or not it's a victory or defeat for Ukraine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dawsongfg (talk • contribs) 23:56, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I added a ref to the NYTimes article on 5/7 saying that the Ukrainian government said it wasn't over yet. Has it changed in the last 3 days? Is there a source we can use? Ultimately, that's what we have to go by. Cononsense (talk) 01:44, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Yes. There are many sources that call it a Ukrainian victory. A small sampling:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61378196
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/russia-ukraine-war-live-updates-counteroffensive-kharkiv-house-aid-rcna28264
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04Jy9F_WOXI
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/08/ukraine-kharkiv-battle-evokes-memories-second-world-war
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/07/world/ukraine-russia-war-news Starship SN20 (talk) 10:01, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
The article states that the engagement is ongoing. Ipso facto, there is no result. And reliable sources must tell us that there is a result. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:49, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Also discussed below. Merge? Starship SN20 (talk) 10:00, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
The Institute for the Study of War has also called it: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-may-13. I'm in favor of changing it to a Ukranian victory.Fusion7 (talk) 00:06, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2022

Change status:ongoing to Ukraine Ukrainian victory 68.132.133.66 (talk) 15:18, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

it might be within days, but per reuters, Ukraine is still recapturing territory near the border (which has been added to the article). I think it might be good to wait a day or two. Cononsense (talk) 15:53, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:37, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
I would personally do it, but not without, either @Cononsense or @ScottishFinnishRadish agreeing. Starship SN20 (talk) 20:24, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
I have no opinion one way or the other, and haven't really been following the situation in Kharkiv closely. I closed it procedurally, as there was an objection. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:27, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
Not until like 3 days. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Its been 3 days. @Dawsongfg Starship SN20 (talk) 21:25, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Per my immediately above:The article states that the engagement is ongoing. Ipso facto, there is no result. And reliable sources must tell us that there is a result. Cinderella157 (talk) 05:45, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
It was at Ukrainian victory, then, on May 10, someone changed it to ongoing. Some sources stating it is a ukrainian victory: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61378196
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/russia-ukraine-war-live-updates-counteroffensive-kharkiv-house-aid-rcna28264
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04Jy9F_WOXI
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/08/ukraine-kharkiv-battle-evokes-memories-second-world-war
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/05/07/world/ukraine-russia-war-news
The list contines @Cinderella157 Starship SN20 (talk) 09:57, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
First BBC link - But the operation north of Kharkiv isn't complete and it has been costly. It is only one front in what looks as though it will be a long war. ongoing
NBC - Ukraine claimed new battlefield gains in the fight, with President Volodymyr Zelenskyy saying his country's forces had pushed invading troops out of four villages near Kharkiv in the northeast and back toward the Russian border. ongoing
Youtube - not watching an hour long video with no timestamp
Guardian - From the window of her sparsely decorated room in the Kyiv nursing home in Chaiky village... Thanks to the Ukrainian defence of Kyiv, the Russian stay at the home turned out to be brief, and Ukraine’s victory in battle allowed everyone to return three weeks ago.This is about people returning to Kyiv
NYT - He said the fight for Kharkiv was not over, and that although “at the moment we are dominating,” Russian forces were trying to regroup and go on the offensive. This is a live updating news ticker about the war, so I'm not sure exactly what you're pointing to, but it's labeled ongoing there too
Here's CNBC, the update 2 hours ago, Ukrainian forces are continuing to counterattack to the north of the city of Kharkiv, recapturing several towns and villages battle still ongoing.
It doesn't look to me like it's a settled victory, even looking at the sources you provided. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:17, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Other source: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/07/world/europe/russia-ukraine-kharkiv-victory-day.html 68.132.133.66 (talk) 12:24, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
He said the fight for Kharkiv was not over, and that although “at the moment we are dominating,” Russian forces were trying to regroup and go on the offensive... The back-and-forth around Kharkiv is part of a more complex battlefield in eastern Ukraine that has left an increasing number of towns and cities trapped in a “gray zone,” stuck between Russian and Ukrainian forces That's from the source you provided. What part of the article supports that it's a Ukrainian victory? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:43, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
I don't know. "Russian Pullback Seen Near Kharkiv", "Victory Day", "Ukrainian defenders pushed the invaders back toward the northeast border and away from the city of Kharkiv", "Russian pullback from the area around Kharkiv", "Ukrainian forces have been pushing back in a counteroffensive", "had no immediate plans to return", etc. Starship SN20 (talk) 10:38, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
Victory Day (9 May) is the victory day they're talking about. Pullbacks, shifts in momentum, and force reorganizations are parts of battles. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:43, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
 Note: Marking this as closed while under discussion, per template instructions. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:19, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
{edit conflict} From those sources I could view, I'm not seeing that they are saying it is over or that it is a Ukranian victory. If I have missed something, please quote from the sources. I endorse the comments by ScottishFinnishRadish that goes directly to the content of the sources quoted. This is a contested matter and there needs to be a consensus among editors that there is a consensus in sources that the engagement is concluded and that there is a result. Not seeing that exists. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:24, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
agreed.
it sounds like there is still fighting north of kharkiv.
from the ukrainian general staff:
“In the Kharkiv direction, the main efforts of the enemy were focused on preventing the advance of our troops and the liberation of the territories temporarily held by the Russian occupiers. Throughout the day, the enemy fired on the positions of our troops in the areas of the settlements of Pitomnyk and Ruski Tyshky,” the report reads.
https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3481804-russian-airstrikes-on-mariupol-attempts-at-assault-in-donbas-active-recon-war-update.html Cononsense (talk) 23:13, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Change date of battle

With the battle concluded, it may be prudent to update the final date of the battle 47.144.159.119 (talk) 07:03, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

looks like it was done Cononsense (talk) 01:41, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2022

Change 'Russian forces around Kharkiv at beginning of May. By second week of May Ukrainian forces have pushed back Russian units away from the city back to the Ukrainian-Russian border.' to 'Russian forces around Kharkiv at the beginning of May. By the second week of May, Ukrainian forces pushed back Russian units away from the city and back to the Ukrainian-Russian border.'

I suggest this change as to fix the grammatical errors in the caption of the map/image shown in the Battle of Kharkiv (2022) article. Teedless (talk) 18:19, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

 Done —Sirdog (talk) 01:36, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Tsyrkuny

There is a red link to Tsyrkuny rural hromada which could be replaced with a link to Tsyrkuny --20:25, 18 June 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:148A:9B01:D8C7:1A3B:E250:E3A6 (talk)

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