Talk:Billion (disambiguation)/Archive 2

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Note To Editors - Read This First !

For all editors who have the urge to edit this article, please note the following first :

This is a DISAMBIGUATION PAGE. Not a page trying to define the word 'billion', or giving great detail on the difference of the two values of the number. Its purpose is to show that there are two different values, to give a brief description of each, and give a link to why there are two values. Do not elaborate beyond this.

There really are two different values for billion. Do not insist that because you have only ever heard of one value in your life, that is the only real meaning. Different countries really do define 'billion' differently.

Please do not add phrases such as 'in the USA', 'in Europe', 'in Britain still'. It makes the article very country-centric. Someone will just edit it out as well (look at the history!), so you're wasting your time. Using 'US/UK' usage is also not correct in modern usage, as modern UK usage is ambiguous (at best).

This is the English-language version of Wikipedia, so English language meanings are most relevant. Billion may also be a word in another language, but that is not relevant here unless they become adopted in English.

If you really want to argue the difference between the values, go to long and short scales. And if you really want to convince people, cite references and discuss in the talk page first.

The Yeti 21:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it is a disambig. But I moved it back to billion from billion (disambiguation). The second name should be used only if billion already existed as a stand-alone article on only one meaning. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 23:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

How well known is it??

Are there plenty of Americans who don't know that this word has two names as of 2004?? 66.32.249.41 17:01, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am sure there are. What's your point? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 22:21, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps the anon poster is not American. The answer to the question is yes, absolutely - the vast majority of fellow countrymen I know are startled if told that "billion" can mean something other than one thousand million. (Similarly, we're stupified to learn that Canadians et. al. pronounce the last letter of the alphabet as "zed" rather than "zee", like we do. Americans find it hard to believe that the rest of the world doesn't agree with us.) - DavidWBrooks 12:30, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC) (I'm an American, by the way)

I'm an American; I just asked this question to make sure how well known it is in the United States that the word has 2 names. 66.245.106.46 22:34, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, it's an interesting question. My guess is that most college-educated people in the United States who a) have a personal interest in the English language, b) have a personal interested in mathematics or other topics related to numbers, or c) travel regular to, have business dealings with, or have relatives in the UK are aware of the double meaning.

Another way of asking this is: how many Americans have any awareness at all of customs, usage, etc. outside the U.S.?

My guess is that a majority of American do not know about the double meaning. I'm thinking maybe around a quarter to a third of all people in the U. S. would know. I'm basing that on things like http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/ which says that only 13% of young Americans can find Iraq on a map. As you get older, the chances that you travel overseas, etc. increase so typically older Americans have a better store of general knowledge and Trivial-Pursuit-type information than young Americans.

The information is in any dictionary. I would expect a high-school math teacher to know it, but... who knows? [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 12:34, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have lived in the United States all my live and I've known since 1994 that the word has 2 different meanings. When I first heard it, I didn't think of it as an advantage of scientific notation in science, but rather as a way to show how the United States and Britain are different. Only when I studied Vfd in Wikipedia did I start to hear that this is a strong reason not to use these words in science. 66.245.77.109 21:11, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am a New Zealand American with dual US and NZ citizenship and I know for a fact that it is easier to become a Billionaire in the US than in NZ - short scale Billionaire that is! :)(User: Parks3)

This is the first time i've heard of this.--Ewok Slayer 07:05, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Usage of Billion in Wikipedia

Have we had any discussion about whether to use the word "billion" in Wikipedia, apart from when talking about that word itself?? I think it should become Wikipedia's convention to avoid this ambiguous word. Any comments?? 66.245.126.161 16:25, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would prefer people to avoid using the word "billion" in Wikipedia, as well as everywhere else, since it does not have an unambiguous meaning. —AlanBarrett 14:34, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As I understand it, Wikipedia uses SI notation, so we would write 10⁹ or 10¹² rather than "billion." However, both this article and the Wiktionary one make it clear to me that the standard is that billion means 10⁹.

--zandperl 02:27, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

It's scientfic notation not SI notation. Yes, it's best avoided. I'd suggest using thousand million and scientfic notation for 10¹² and above. Jimp 25Nov05

No major media outlets avoid using billion, and nowhere in the English-speaking world is the term still used to mean "million million" in careful writing (which is, I hope, what Wikipedia is). Do you think the handful of people who don't realise that a billion means a thousand million will understand scientific notation? ProhibitOnions 10:43, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

There's been quite a lot of discussion and research on this by folks here and at Short scale and the usage of billion is, in fact, still ambiguous and disputed. [Dictionaries] still give both meanings as being in use, and that specific link is to a recent revision of a frequently-revised U.S. dictionary. It is not just a "handful" of people who use the long-scale meaning of billion. And it is a live dispute. There are many reasons to believe that short scale usage is rapidly gaining ground, but until both U.S. and British dictionaries give the long scale usage as "archaic" or "obsolete" you can't just brush it away. The word "billion" is easy to avoid, and its use other than in a financial context will confuse some readers and irritate others. Dpbsmith (talk) 11:22, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Hear hear. I still use billion as God had intended. I've started this discusion up at Mos talk page. Jimp 27Nov05

Billion

I don't understand your rationale for changing this article from U.S. to U.K. English, nor for changing the ordering of the explanation. The former is clearly against the MoS, the latter seems to be based on a misunderstanding (that this being an English-language encyclopædia means that it's an English-nationality encyclopædia). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Please clarify where I have changed this from US to UK English. I can't see it. The article sections deal with 10^9 and 10^12 in that order. I changed the article's introduction to keep to the same order, i.e. "respectively". Do you have a problem with 10^12 not coming first? I don't see where I have denied anyone's nationality. Please clarify why you think I misunderstand. Ian Cairns 22:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

It looks as though you are confusing [1] with my edits. Ian Cairns 22:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

You're right, I'm sorry. Mind you, your edit summary – "re-order to put common English usage first in English Wiki article" – did confuse matters... --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be easier to list the countries and give the facts instead of just the general trend? Bigboehmboy 17:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The detailed list is better kept in Long and short scales.--Niels Ø 19:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Disambig

I've made this a simple disambig. There's no point in duplicating the information in long and short scales here. The 1000000000-specific info "sense of scale" I moved to 1000000000 (number) jnestorius^(talk) 09:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

European ennumeration

There are Millions of People they learned Million, Milliard, Billion, Billiard, Trillion, Trilliard and so on. I suggest there are more non-native-speaking-english readers then us and gb- readers. And all the "old" countries like FR, DE, IT, CH, AU and so on are not understanding the us style. Usually we are tranclating articles and in same time immediatly the big numbers into european ennumeration. Please take note of that!!! COSY from Switzerland (a 4-language country)

Hello Cosy. The UK and Ireland are in the European Community. Are you suggesting that they all learned Million, Milliard, Billion, Billiard, Trillion, Trilliard? If so, you are wrong. Please see Long and short scales where it is explained why Billion is no longer termed 'US' usage. Similarly, your long scale usage was incorrectly termed 'European enumeration'. Contributors have added (to Long and short scales) that some non-English-speaking European countries use most of the short scale usage (although they may use Milliard instead of Billion). The whole story is in Long and short scales. The abbreviated story is in Milliard / Billion, etc. Ian Cairns 10:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Another defintion

The noun billion has 2 meanings:

Meaning #1: (in Britain) the number that is represented as a one followed by 12 zeros

 Synonyms: one million million, 1000000000000

Meaning #2: (in the United States) the number that is represented as a one followed by 9 zeros

The adjective billion has one meaning:

Meaning #1: (U.S.) denoting a quantity consisting of one thousand million items or units; (Britain) denoting a quantity consisting of one million million items or units

Reference: http://www.answers.com/billion

Disambiguation

I recently, foolishly, changed the made the page Billion a redirect & changed Billion (disambiguation) to be the actual disambiguation. It was reverted promptly . I understand the general meaning of Billion is 1,000,000,000, and I also realize that it has a couple of other meanings. For sake of convience, don't you think it would be simpler to have billion as a redirect and billion (disambiguation) as a disambiguation like the name states. Just my thoughts. --Random ^{Say it here!} 23:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

No. Because the general meaning of billion isn't 1000000000. Go to long and short scales pages. The Yeti 11:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

1 000 000 000 000

(ie) 10^12, billion or trillion depending how you look at things. The page 1000000000000 (number) page has been redirected from a page similar to 1000000000 (number) to Orders of magnitude (numbers). If you disagree with this redirect (or agree), please comment ~~here~~. This comment will self-destruct in a few days ('cos it'll be redundant then). The Yeti 22:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion has now moved on to HERE. Please comment. The Yeti 13:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

What is a useful disambiguation?

A reason a reader may end up at this disambiguation page, which actually feels more like a dictionary definition, is that they don't know the meaning of the word billion. After all, if you already know it means 10¹², why go here? Now actually the word billion may mean several things, and the reader may not know a priori that its meaning in some context is 10¹² rather than 10⁹, so giving 1,000,000,000,000 as one of the meanings is in general not sufficient for the purpose of disambiguation. However, some information I added that might help with this disambiguation was removed with edit summary this is a disambig page only + if we list every country's usage, this won't be a disambig page !. --Lambiam ^Talk 14:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Firstly read the first paragraph (Note to Editors) above. Secondly, the point of this page is to show there are two versions of 'billion'. If you put 'billion' into the search box, or click a Wiki link in a page for 'billion', you end up here. Too many people assume it is only one number, not that there are two. Thirdly, mentioning countries, particular US/UK, makes the article country-centric (why not list every country in the world? where does it stop?), particular as terms such as 'US/UK' are obselete and untrue nowdays. Fourthly there is a link to long and short scales that, if clicked, would explain a whole lotta this. Also you de-wiki-linked the numbers. However, the SI terms could be useful, so I've added them . The Yeti 00:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

A better definition ?

prehaps the main artical should simply define Billion as an ambiguous number being either to the 9th or 12th power and cite the references ?

Those quoting SI units might like to note that the cm (100mm ) is not a SI unit - either mm or meters are used, equaly I have never come accross the use of Billiohm, Billifarad, Billimeters, or Billikilos, ect.

I always think of a Billion as being a Bullcrap number that is used for anything between to the 9 or 12 to make the actual number as big as possible. 172.207.94.156 18:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)/

Accuracy Dispute

The page suggests that all long scale countries use the term billion for 1,000,000,000. This is not the case and is therefore misleading. It is exceptionally rare (the more's the pitty) in the UK for the non-US usage, and this should be reflected in the page, even if it is merely a disambiguation page. --JohnArmagh (talk) 05:32, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I've corrected it. Abtract (talk) 05:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Interwikis

What is en.wikipedia policy towards interwikis on disambiguation pages? I'd suggest that only the interwiki to simple.wikipedia is strictly correct. At least some of the interwiki's are clearly incorect, since they refer to just one meaning of 'billion' (e.g. the interwikis to es and nl.). KKoolstra (talk) 09:59, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

From Chicago Manual of Style

billion; trillion.

The meanings vary in different countries. In the United States, a billion is 1,000,000,000. In Great Britain, some parts of Canada, and Germany, a billion is a thousand times more than that (a million millions, or what Americans call a trillion). Further, in Great Britain a trillion is a million million millions, what Americans would call a quintillion (1,000,000,000,000,000,000). The American definitions are gaining acceptance, but writers need to remember the historical geographic distinctions. See 9.10.