Talk:Blasco de Garay

A fact from Blasco de Garay appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 30 April 2008, and was viewed approximately 1,431 times (disclaimer) (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that a Balzac comedy was inspired by an academic squabble over the claim that Spaniard Blasco de Garay built the first steam powered ship in 1543?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2008/April.

Wikipedia

History[edit]

The idea of a Renaissance era steamer is very attractive - too attractive! Spaniards love tall stories - they'll tell you in the most intricate detail and with the greatest of gravity the biggest story they can get away with for the sport of it all - and this has all the elements - Charles V, the treasurer, arguments over money, the eternal battle between the visionary and the narrow minded, etc. Is it true? Did Garay actually test some sort of primitive steam ship way back then? Are there any old documents - letters, memorials, cheque stubs, something, other than Tomas Gonzalez's letter to Navarrete? Or is this one of those tall stories that has developed a life of its own with its retelling with Gonzalez and Navarrete laughing all the way to their graves, and beyond? Provocateur (talk) 04:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What, all Spaniards are liars? What kind of bigoted crap is allowed in Wikipedia these days? I don't know if this story is true or not, but the power of steam as an impelling force was known since antiquity, and it is not too much of a stretch to imagine some type of steam machinery turning paddles in the 16th century. Or is it just that the Spaniards are too stupid too have beaten the Brits at this invention? Really, don't try to make your presentation of insulting, arrant nonsense a virtue. You're not "provocative." You're just a prejudiced idiot.98.170.200.31 (talk) 04:39, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Umm, nobody is reliably known to make a steam engine move anything at all, for the next 150 years, much less be light enough and strong enough to move itself. One doesn't have to be insulting to wonder how one isolated genius could be so far ahead of his times in the multiple arts that such an achievment requires. It's like claiming Charles Algernon Parsons invented not only a working turbine engine, but a supersonic airplane. Extraordinary proofs would have to be offered. Jim.henderson (talk) 23:51, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The book by H.P.Spratt, "The Birth of the Steamboat" (London, 1958), puts to rest once and for all, I believe, this hoary tale.OMINOREG (talk) 11:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, since we do not have access to that book, your comment doesn't actually indicate whether Spratt declared the story as true (in which case, we need to access his source material, since other sources are inadequate) or a load of bunkum!

EdJogg (talk) 12:53, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I shall now put the matter straight.Downypilt (talk) 14:06, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I hope I have now presented sufficient proof. Downypilt (talk) 14:31, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One of England’s most eminent marine historians, H.P.Spratt, in his book “The Prenatal History of the Steamboat”, Newcomen Transactions Vol. 30, 1955-7, page 14 shows that this story has been refuted by Spanish authorities. Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Downypilt (talk • contribs) 10:56, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The second steamboat in Spain was P.S. "Hope", built at Bristol in 1813 and running Sevilla-Sanlucar in 1822.^[1]

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The message "Cite error: Closing </ref> missing for <ref> tag" can now be erased, since I have now completely erased the offending words.

I've fixed the tag. — Tivedshambo (t/c) 18:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks!Downypilt (talk) 19:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reference 13 does not seem to tie in datewise.Downypilt (talk) 19:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

H.P.Spratt, "The Birth of the Steamboat"[edit]

This link includes some cover blurb from this 1958 book: http://www.camberpete.co.uk/Archaeology%20and%20History_Pages/the_birth_of_the_steamboat.html

Industrial archaeology, transport history, model making—people with many different interests will appreciate this lower-priced re-issue of a key reference book by the retired Deputy Keeper of the Department of Transport at the Science Museum, London. From an appreciative international press we quote a few tributes.

"Who invented the steamboat ? Mr. Spratt deserves the highest praise for the way he has clarified this vexed question with a lucidity and an economy of words which conceals a prodigous amount of research." — New Scientist (L. T. C. Rour)

"A good piece of research by the author who is an expert. It undoubtedly breaks new ground on a subject which has always been full of fallacies and obscurities." — Nautical Magazine.

"A most useful and sensibly compiled reference book for anyone interested in this fascinating field of engineering history. By rescuing these pioneers from unmerited obscurity, Mr. Spratt has made a valuable contribution to the history of technology."—Newcomen Bulletin.

"No fault can be found with the selection and coverage of the subject from the earliest times to the first commercially acceptable vessels."— Journal of Transport History

"The author is in a favourable position to write accurately and interestingly on the subject. This he has done most effectively in this nicely produced little book. . . . No fewer than 390 references from all over the world date from 1580 up to notes of quite recent papers."— Marine Engineer

So I think it is reasonable to accept his assertion that de Garay did NOT invent the first steam boat...!

EdJogg (talk) 12:18, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish Wikipedia Point of view[edit]

I have no ambition to enter in a intense debate over this issue, BUT before dissmissing this story as untrue, you better have a look to the spanish wikipedia on this subject. In fact it does not talk of steamboats, it does refer to an experiment carried out in Barcelona in 1543 (with many different witness talking about the trial), involving wheel paddles and a hot water boiling device, which we do not know exactly what purpose served.

In my opinion this story is similar to the discovery of America by the norsemen, wheter it is true or not, in the popular opinion its discoverer will always be Christopher Colombus.

Discredited by who?[edit]

I believe it is laugh the dismissal of the Simancas Archives with this sentence:

«However, these claims have been discredited by the Spanish authorities.[2]»

where [2] here refers to some unacessible (no link) catalog guide from 1945 (Museo Naval, Catálogo guia del Museo Naval de Madrid, IX edición, Madrid, 1945, page 128).

What authorities, Franco at the end of the 2nd World War, or some librarian guy that wrote some unaccessible catalog?

With no further explanation, this is just a medieval "magister dixit" sentence.

I would like to recall you, that our "official stories" also include the episode of a Cook with a Sandwich eating half of Australia, since the other half was temporarily named "New Holland" (temporary means 150 years).

Perhaps even today, people find that going from the west side to the east side of Australia, is something to take 150 years!

We never know the belief of the believers. AlvoMaia (talk) 04:23, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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^ G.E.Farr,“West Country Passenger Steamers” London 1956,p.14.

[1] G.E.Farr,“West Country Passenger Steamers” London 1956,p.14.

[1]