Talk:Bun-sgoil Ghàidhlig Inbhir Nis

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus. @harej 01:13, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

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Bun-sgoil Ghàidhlig Inbhir Nis → Inverness Gaelic School — Relisted for further input. Jafeluv (talk) 10:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I expect that this proposal will be controversial, given that the subject is a Gaelic-medium school. Nonetheless, the norm for articles in this namespace is to WP:Use English for page names. I therefore propose that the page be moved to Inverness Gaelic School and that Bun-sgoil Ghàidhlig Inbhir Nis serve as a redirect. Alternately, if English-language sources tend to use Bun-sgoil Ghàidhlig Inbhir Nis, then Inverness Gaelic School should be created as a redirect to this page. Cnilep (talk) 19:09, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

This is very controversial since the actual name of the school is Bun-sgoil Ghàidhlig Inbhir Nis. It makes perfect sense for Inverness Gaelic School to be a redirect page as someone looking for details about the school who is unsure of its correct name may indeed type 'Inverness Gaelic School' to see if anything coemes up. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 20:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Their website claims "Inverness Gaelic Primary School", so per WP:UE that's where it should be. That name also brings up plenty of relevant use, including most of the first page. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 15:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, thats not accurate - 'Inverness Gaelic School' is the translation of the name that is given on the second line, under the 'real' name. (The whole point of the school is that it is a gaelic school, which is why it has a gaelic name!) Notice that its logo on the top left clearly uses its gaelic name.[1] Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 17:44, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it is accurate. The bun in bun-sgoil makes it specifically a primary school (see also scoil vs. bunscoil in Irish). The official site carries the English name twice - once in the page title, and once on its masthead - both contain the word "Primary". Most importantly is actual use by secondary sources, of which there is plenty more with "Primary" that without it. 81.111.114.131 (talk) 22:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Apologies that I accidently missed out the work 'primary' - the translation of the name does indeed mean 'Inverness Gaelic Primary School'. However, this does not detract from my point that the actual name of the school is 'Bun-sgoil Ghàidhlig Inbhir Nis'. I've checked the website again and don't see what you claim - However, if you look at the bottom of the page where it gives the contact address for the school, you will notice that both the English and Gaelic forms of the address use the name 'Bun-sgoil Ghàidhlig Inbhir Nis'. That happens to be its name, and should therefore be the name of this article! I really don't see the problem with having 'Inverness Gaelic School' and 'Inverness Gaelic Primary School' just redirecting to this article. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 23:16, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean "you don't see it"? It's in huge letters at the top of the page. WP:UE is explicit on this - where an English form is in use and established, we prefer it over the non-English name. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 13:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. Perhaps we are looking at different pages? This is the one I am looking at [2]. This page has the gaelic name at the very top, with the English translation below that. In addition, the Gaelic name moves across the page from the right to the left, and the gaelic name is on the logo at the top left of the page. At the bottom of the page, the address of the school is given in both Gaelic and English - but both versions use the gaelic name in the address. - Is that the page you are looking at? Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 18:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you dispute that the English name is in established use by independent reliable sources? (Hint: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]) 81.111.114.131 (talk) 07:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

No. Three of the links you provide clearly show that some sources prefer to use the English translation of the school's name rather than the school's actual Gaelic name. (The other sources you provide show both being used, with Inverness Gaelic Primary School being the translation.) By the same token, do you dispute that 'Bun-sgoil Ghàidhlig Inbhir Nis' is in established use by independent reliable sources? Cheers for now Fishiehelper2 (talk) 18:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

For example, [11] Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 18:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I do not. However, I am not the one arguing to make an exception to the naming guidelines. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 18:26, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

To be fair, I do not belief I am arguing for an exception to the naming guidelines as those guideline are about situations where a name changes slightly from language to language, as opposed to this situation where we are discussing whether an actual translation of the name should be used. Anyway, the policy iself calls for common sense and also allows for exceptions: I think that having the article as Bun-sgoil Ghàidhlig Inbhir Nis, with Inverness Gaelic Primary School and Inverness Gaelic School both redirecting to the article, is the common sense solution. (I suspect you may see things differently!) Cheers again Fishiehelper2 (talk) 18:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

It would appear you've misunderstood the guideline. It's not about "situations where a name changes slightly from language to language", it is about (as its name suggests) using English. We're not going to make an exception unless you provide a very good reason. Look at the examples - "divided usage", "no established use", etc. There is an English name, it is in established use, and there doesn't seem to be any major variation in the English form used. Therefore, the guideline applies, and the exception isn't "common sense". 81.110.104.91 (talk) 19:31, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

In that case, will you be attempting to rename all the articles about schools which use the Welsh name when an English translation of the name is also used? For example, Ysgol y Preseli, where the school's own website uses the name 'Preseli School'? If you take this line, huge numbers of articles will end up being renamed. How about sgian dubh which uses the gaelic spelling rather than the anglicised version? Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 20:36, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

We're not discussing any of those things. We're discussion this article. Make a case that is relevant to it. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 18:08, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Fishiehelper2 is quite correct, if that is the common name for the school, then surely wp:common applies. Tfz 19:16, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Other stuff exists is not a valid rationale to negate naming guidelines. A user has brought up a request move specifically in regards to this article. English Language Wikipedia? Check. Well established English language name? Check. Want to read or write articles in a non-English language? Fortunetly we have many Wikipedias for specific languages. The Gaelic Language Wikipedia is just down the hall, first on your left. Thankyou come again. - Yorkshirian (talk) 19:29, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

So Nanjing should be called Southern capital, why Gaelic and not Chinese? Refer you to WP:COMMON again. Tfz 19:45, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Show us the reliable sources in English that use the name "Southern Capital" in place of "Nanjing". 81.110.104.91 (talk) 20:03, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Inverness Gaelic School is listed. Tfz 20:09, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm failing to see the point of that comment. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 20:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi 81.110.104.91. You say "We're not discussing any of those things. We're discussion this article. Make a case that is relevant to it." My point in mentioning other articles was in direct response to you saying "We're not going to make an exception unless you provide a very good reason." It is not exceptional to use a non English name in English wikipedia when that is the proper name for what the article is about. If it is acceptable for Welsh schools to have Welsh language names in English Wikipedia, it is not asking for an exception for aGaelic school to be treated the same way. By the way, Yorkshirian, I don't "Want to read or write articles in a non-English language?" I want to read an English language article about a school in Inverness that happens to have a Gaelic name since it is a Gaelic Medium School. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 21:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

"If it is acceptable for Welsh schools to have Welsh language names in English Wikipedia, it is not asking for an exception for aGaelic school to be treated the same way." Again, we are not discussing those articles. Whether it is acceptable for Welsh schools to have Welsh language names is a matter to be decided on a case-by-case basis, most importantly of all, not on this page. The analogy is entirely improper, because existence is not precedent. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 21:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but you were the one who said "We're not going to make an exception unless..." - an exception is only an exception compared to what happens in other articles. When I quote other articles that demonstrates that using the Gaelic name would not be making an exception, you tell me to not discuss other articles! You are the one who is proposing a move and the onus of proof is on you to justify it. Even the school sign uses the gaelic name [12] yet you want to use a translation of the name instead of its actual name! I fail to see any proper justification for your position, despite the policies you have cited and the points you have made. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 22:32, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Once again: This discussion is not about how the naming conventions apply to any articles other than this one. That other articles are also at non-compliant titles has no bearing on this discussion. Exactly what part of this do you not understand? 81.110.104.91 (talk) 08:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand YOU making an argument about 'not making an exception' when you are now saying that other articles have no bearing on this discussion - that is a fundamental contradiction! I'm perfectly happy to discuss the merits of maintaining the title of the article as it is, without reference to what happens elsewhere - if you are too, don't use the 'it would make an exception' argument. (By the way, probably won't be able to comment on this any more today as off to football match!) Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 09:06, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

OK, this is the last time I'm going to say this. There exists a convention that article titles should generally be in English. This article currently does not adhere to this convention. You have said hat it should not adhere to the convention, because a number of other articles do not adhere to it. I have asked you to provide a reason why this article specifically should not adhere, because the mere fact that other articles do not adhere is not in and of itself an excuse to make an exception to the guideline here. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 10:12, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I have been following this debate with interest but it now seems to be going round in circles. One editor thinks that articles should have English names, even if that is just a translation of the actual name. The other editor thinks that it is wrong to not use the actual name of the school, even when it happens to be in Gaelic. My view is that most references I've found to the school that describe it as Inverness Gaelic School or Inverness Gaelic Primary School, tend to use the word 'the' in front of the phrase, whereas articles that use the gaelic name don't - I strongly suspect that this is because the English phrase 'the Inverness Gaelic School' is a description rather than the name of the school. I also think it is significant that the photo of the school sign (link is above) shows the gaelic name only. Personally I don't see it will be possible to get a consensus for on either of the two positions, however long the discussion! 86.157.200.8 (talk) 11:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

"One editor thinks that articles should have English names, even if that is just a translation of the actual name." No. One editor things that articles should have English names if one exists and is in established use. Clearly, one exists (it's shown on the school's home page), and it's in established use in the press (note the capitalised P and S in the usages linked above). Therefore, there's no reason not to use it. As far as I can see, consensus is for the move. The community reposes consensus in the guideline, I have demonstrated indisputably how the guideline applies here. The onus is now on anyone who dissents to prove their case. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 14:10, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

"As far as I can see, consensus is for the move" - then look again at the contributions to this discussion! There is no consensus - at least three editors are against a move and only a couple are in favour! By the way, don't confuse a name with a translation of the name - the schools webpage gives the school's address and in both the English and Gaelic version of the address, the Gaelic name for the school is given: if the translation were indeed an alternative version of the name, it would have used this in the English version of the school's address. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 17:00, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's run through this one last time. Guidelines are considered to have widespread support. So there are "at least three editors against a move", but certainly a lot more than two in favour. There's no evidence that the Gaelic is overwhelmingly the "common name", while there's clear incontrovertible evidence that there is an English name in established use. The number of people is irrelevant, it's the strength of the argument that matters, and it happens in this case that the available evidence supports the case for a move, but there isn't evidence to support not moving. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 16:24, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. I am attempting to summarize the discussion for my own understanding and that of the closing admin. Please correct my summary of your own position if it is inaccurate, or if I've missed you.

• Cnilep (me) - proposes move on grounds of WP:Use English.
• Fishiehelper2 - strongly opposes on grounds that the school's proper name is Bun-sgoil Ghàidhlig Inbhir Nis.
• 81.110.104.91 suggests move to "Inverness Gaelic Primary School" on grounds that school uses that name on its own materials, plus WP:Use English. (Is this the same user as 81.111.114.131, by the way? Both appear to be in Swansea.)
• Tfz expresses support for Fishiehelper2, implicitly opposing the move, on the basis of WP:COMMON (use common sense) (or did the editor intend WP:COMMONNAMES (use common names)?).
• Yorkshirian takes issue with Tfz's reasoning, but it is not clear if this constitutes support for the move.
• 86.157.200.8 suggests that consensus may be impossible.

I make that no consensus, two arguments in favor and two opposed. I apologize if I've missed anyone. Cnilep (talk) 20:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi there - I assumed that 86.157.200.8 was opposed to a move on the basis of the sentence "I also think it is significant that the photo of the school sign (link is above) shows the gaelic name only." Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 20:38, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I take the commentary "English Language Wikipedia? Check. Well established English language name? Check." to be supporting the move to an English name. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 16:24, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, but maybe we (all three of us) should allow those users to speak for themselves rather than trying to divine their intentions. (In any case, I don't see any obvious consensus for or against the move.) Cnilep (talk) 17:32, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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