Talk:Carnival of Satriano di Lucania

Deletion tag

I added a deletion tag to this article because I am unable to find reliable sources, per this query.

In addition, I now see the message: "A page with this title has previously been moved or deleted. If you are creating a new page with different content, please continue. If you are recreating a page similar to the previously deleted page, or are unsure, please first contact the user(s) who performed the action(s) listed below. 09:17, 5 June 2013 Ultraexactzz (talk | contribs) deleted page Talk:Carnival of Satriano di Lucania (G8: Talk page of a deleted page)"

—CaroleHenson (talk) 04:06, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Dear admin, i know that there isn't a lot of source in english but this is normal because the satriano's carnival is from italy and the main articles or sources are in italian language (in fact try to search "carnevale di satriano di lucania" in italian, or "la foresta che cammina" events, that means walking forest). We put a lot of effort to write up this page, if you give us the opportunity to continue to improve it, it would be better for the whole community because this is not a false or phantom voice, but it is a very popular event and felt in Italy, like other carnivals like those of Venice or acireale.

If the problem are the sources, in the next few days we will cover include those necessary and solve the problem, but it would not make sense to delete the page.

--Centonero (talk) 11:18, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because...

1 The articles is being built 2 the are a lot of sources but in italian language so in the coming days we can insert them without problems 3 The festival is not a false, is really famous on the south italy and nationally known, almost like venice or acireale. 4 it would be senseless to delete the page to a lack of sources as they are being drawn up, the elimination of a page that is not a draft but a nearly complete article constitutes a cut to freedom of information!

--Centonero (talk) 11:30, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Based upon the message that you posted on my talk page, I am seeing many news sources, which would be the best place to start. See this. I will switch the deletion tag to unreferenced.

You can fill in the field for this template to create citations for the content: <ref>{{cite news|url= |title= | author= |date= |website= |accessdate=February 28, 2017|language=Italian}}</ref>

If you need help getting this started, let me know.—CaroleHenson (talk) 14:08, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your support Carole, obviously we had misunderstood, now the page is already better structured!--Centonero (talk) 17:56, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Quotes posted on my talk page

Carole thank you again for the great work, there is only a thing should we do, that is reinsert the quotes of the masks, for the traduction i am italian and i know the dialect of the area so the traduction are these:

Carnival rhyme:

-Satriano dialect: "Carnuval carnuvalicchj' ramm nu'poc r saucicchj e si nun m'lu vuoi rà ca t'pozzan mbracetà".

-Italian: Carnevale, carnevalino, dammi un pò di salame, e se non me lo vuoi dare, spero che ti presto ti marciscano.

-English: Carnival, little carnival, give me a bit of salami, and if You do not want to give me, I hope that soon you rot them.

(meaning of the rhyme: in the tradition, the villagers usually exchange salami each other, but if someone is selfish, they wished him that the salami will rot)

rumita:

-Satriano dialect: "Si la furtuna vuoi ca' t'assist man inda'sacca e nun t' fa nziste', ra u rumit' t'ha fa tuccà e na cosa ng'aja lassà."

-Italian: Se vuoi che la fortuna ti assista metti le mani in tasca e non farti insistere, dall'eremita devi farti toccare e qualcosa gli devi lasciare.

-English: If you want that luck will assist you put your hands in your pocket and do not let stress, you have to get the hermit touch and something you have to give him.

(meaning of the rhyme: in the ancestral tradition, the hermit brings good luck so the rhyme says that if you get his poke you will receive the gift of fortune but, for that, you have to give him something, in fact some coins)

lant:

-Satriano dialect: "Quare's'ma uocchj tort vaij chiangend p' nand r' port vaij r'cenn sciglj miej aggj pers' a cumbagnie"

-Italian: La Quaresima dagli occhi storti va piangendo di porta in porta va dicendo "oh mio dio!" ho perso la compagnia.

-English: Lent by the cross-eyed weeping go from door to door saying goes, "oh my god!" I lost my company.

(meaning of the rhyme: in the ancient tradition the "quare'ma" (lent in english) is an old woman whose husband died in the carnival period, so her eyes are crooked by pain and she tried to be comforted by her friends of the town going from house to house, crying, saying "god, help me!" (sciglj miej) and "i lost my only company" (aggj pers' a cumbagnie). )

--Centonero (talk) 18:56, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

The Italian version help quite a bit, but the translations don't quite make sense to me. I'll work on it later - trying to tweak the wording and translate that to Italian for you to see if that gets to the point of the rhyme.—CaroleHenson (talk) 19:55, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Carnival

Italian: Carnevale, carnevalino, dammi un pò di salame, e se non me lo vuoi dare, spero che ti presto ti marciscano.

English: Carnival, little carnival, give me a bit of salami, and if you do not want to give me, I hope that soon you rot them.

English tweaks: Carnival, little carnival, give me a bit of salami, and if you do not want to, I hope that it soon rots.

Italian translation: Carnevale, poco carnevale, dammi un po 'di salame, e se non lo voglio, spero che marcisce presto.

Does the tweaked version work? Is the translation back to Italian close enough?—CaroleHenson (talk) 20:11, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, the translation is ok but i think i did an error in the english traduction, in fact is "if YOU don't want to give me" so in italian is "se (tu) non me lo vuoi dare". The sense is so clearly both in italian in english, so the correct form will be:

Carnival, little carnival, give me a bit of salami, "and if you do not want to give me that", I hope that it soon rots.

--Centonero (talk) 21:23, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Yep, that sounds good.—CaroleHenson (talk) 21:50, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Rumita

Italian: Se vuoi che la fortuna ti assista metti le mani in tasca e non farti insistere, dall'eremita devi farti toccare e qualcosa gli devi lasciare.

English: If you want that luck will assist you put your hands in your pocket and do not let stress, you have to get the hermit touch and something you have to give him.

English tweaks: If you want good luck, reach into your pocket and do not worry, when you get the hermit touch, give something to him.

Italian translation: Se si desidera buona fortuna, raggiungere in tasca e non si preoccupi, quando si ottiene il tocco eremita, dare qualcosa a lui.

Is this close enough? Have the same essential meaning?—CaroleHenson (talk) 20:22, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Well for this one, it's almost perfect but in this part "when you get the hermit touch" is not correct because the rhyme says that you "must get the hermit touch, or have to" in other words you are "obliged" to make him touch you, says the rhyme, not "when" he touches you. Hope you have understood.

--Centonero (talk) 21:28, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

It seems out of order - but it sounds like this should be changed to something like: "If you want good luck, reach into your pocket and do not worry, ask for the hermit touch and give something to him." —CaroleHenson (talk) 21:54, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Uhm noone has ever ask the "poke" of the hermit so at this point it's better the first traduction with "when", i rely on you since you have more experienced XD

--Centonero (talk) 22:16, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Lent

Italian: La Quaresima dagli occhi storti va piangendo di porta in porta va dicendo "oh mio dio!" ho perso la compagnia.

English: Lent by the cross-eyed weeping go from door to door saying goes, "oh my god!" I lost my company.

English tweak: Lent, cross-eyed from crying, goes door-to-door saying, "Oh my God!" I lost my husband. ... or I lost my companion.

Italian: Quaresima, strabico dal pianto, si porta a porta dicendo: "Oh mio Dio!" Ho perso mio marito. ... O ho perso la mia compagna.

How is this?—CaroleHenson (talk) 20:31, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

This is really the closest tradution, but in the final part she don't speak about her husband she says "cumbagnie" that means "company", much like companionship. Cause if she wanted she could says simply "aggj pers marit'm" where "marit'm" is "marito" in italian means "husband" in english, but she says "cumbagnie", not "husband" :)

--Centonero (talk) 21:37, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

I am confused by the use of the word "company" - does this mean family, neighbors? In English, loss of one's company would generally mean loss of one's business. Company can also mean a group of visitors to one's house.

I came up with husband because I have read that it is the story of a grieving widow. I'm at a loss about what should be used for "company".—CaroleHenson (talk) 21:59, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

I got it , anyway the general sense doesn't change so if the word company is closest to the business area we can say simply husband, no problem!

--Centonero (talk) 22:21, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm not "married" (pun) to the use of husband. I would prefer to use whatever word is most correct. It sounds like from what you said earlier that companion is close. Is that best? Companions? Loved ones? Whatever you think is right, I think my issue is that I'm just not understanding the translated "company" or what the italian word specifically means.—CaroleHenson (talk) 23:01, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Companion seems to be exactly the word that i wanted to say, sorry for the problem (and thanks for the help!) xD

--Centonero (talk) 00:09, 1 March 2017 (UTC)