Talk:Cham Albanian dialect

The Çam Dialect

Actually, "çamërisht" along with "gegërisht/gegnisht", "labërisht" and "toskërisht" form the four major divisions of the Albanian language. 21:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Chamerisht is a sub dialect of tosk not a branch in itself. gege and tosk are the only two groups.--92.0.7.212 (talk) 10:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Giakoumis/Oswald

• Giakoumis (2003):The presence of Albanians in the Epeirote lands from the beginning of the thirteenth century is also attested by two documentary sources: the first is a Venetian document of 1210, which states that the continent facing the island of Corfu is inhabited by Albanians;" and the second is letters of the Metropolitan of Naupaktos John Apokaukos to a certain George Dysipati, who was considered to be an ancestor of the famous Shpata family. Furthermore, I suggest that names that appear in two acts of the Angevins of Naples dated 130422 using the forms, Albos, Spatos, Catarucos, Bischesini, Aranitos, Lecenis, Turbaceos, Marchaseos, Scuras, Zeneuias, Bucceseos, Logoresc and Mateseos are either well-known, less-known or totally unknown names of Albanian clan leaders at that time. Are we obliged to see in this a possible earlier Albanian immigration in the Epeirote lands, as Kostas Komis did in the case of the etymology of the toponym Preveza'?" I believe that the use of hypothetical immigrations as a basis to interpret sources that indicate the presence of Albanians in the Epeirote lands prior to the thirteenth-fourteenth century is somewhat arbitrary. For it serves the concept of national purity in zones with clear lines of communication, mutual relations (as linguistic research has proved) and common traditions, religion as well as principal language of communication. It is evident that this was the case in a period when co-existence and understanding among people of different nations (in the modern sense of the term) were far better than they are today. Nevertheless, the immigration movements of the fourteenth century are documented facts, as I shall point out below.
• Ossward (2007):In 1252, Prince Golem of Arbanon submitted to the empire of Nicaea58, but this did not last, since, in 1257/58, the Albanians rebelled again and rejoined the party of Michael II, ruler of Epirus59. In the same period, the Italians from Naples took the coastal zone from Dyrrachion to Valona and started to colonize Albania. This was the provisional end of contacts between Albanians and the Greeks of Epirus. There is no evidence that Albanians came southwards to Epirus in this period.
• The two statements don't contradict each other. Osswald doesn't say that Albanians weren't present in Epirus before 1210, but that Albanian movements haven't been recorded in the mid 13th century southwards in the form of migrations/settlements. Osswald p.33 The Albanians appear in the sources in the 11th century52, but this does not mean that they were newcomers in the Balkans, since they may be heirs of the ancient Illyrians53. In any case, although their original territory is still not precisely known, we can be certain that there existed no large Albanian population in Epirus: their heartland in the 11th and 12th centuries was the small territory of Arbanon in essence is the same to Giakoumis (2003) who writes that: a)Albanians are attested in 13th century Epirus b)there is no reason to get into a discussion about migrations since they were part of the same socio-political world as the Greeks of Epirus c)Albanian tribes did move southwards in the 14th century.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:55, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Maps created by Balkansword removed as dubious

The specific maps depict the maximum extent of Albanian speech in nw speech in detail, they are sourced by a top graded academic paper on the issue (Kokolakis), and were also introduced by an Albanian wikipedia editor in the past. I doubt if a productive editor can claim something close to 'dubious' about them. He needs to provide at least a decent explanation instead of launching abstract accusations.Alexikoua (talk) 01:22, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

It appears the level of disruption has reached a new level: the productive work of Balkan editors (Albanians in this case, since the one map was produced by user:Resnjari & based on the academic fieldwork of Kokolakis) has been claimed as a product disruption. That's definitely not productive editing.Alexikoua (talk) 21:22, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree. The map from Kokolakis is from a high quality academic source that focuses on the topic. There is absolutely no reason to remove it. Not a single reason was provided for its removal. Khirurg (talk) 16:21, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

It would be nice if you could refrain from introducing from adding maps of extremely dubious authors and unreliable sources. The map from Cambridge University Press is excellent and doesn't need replacement. Nishjan (talk) 16:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Explain how the map is "extremely dubious". It's sourced to an academic publication, Kokolakis 2003 [1]. Explain how it's "unreliable". The "excellent" map as you call it contains errors, for example it shows Cham being spoken in Preveza prefecture, which everyone knows is incorrect. Khirurg (talk) 16:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

'Kokolakis' map' was created by Resnjari and several Balkan editor agreed on that. It's the most detailed map we have on the maximum extent of the Albanian speaking area. I believe this kind of serious -but abstract- accusation (dubious, disruption etc.) needs some kind of explanation in the relevant noticeboards: nevertheless turning scholarship and hard-work by co-editors useless makes someone's argument extremely weak.Alexikoua (talk) 23:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@Iaof2017: is kindly requested to explain why he removes the detailed maps on the Cham Albanian dialect with the childish excuse of supposedly replacing them if a 'better' one but in fact he places a more generic one. Long story short: that's disruptive editing and it's good to be avoided.Alexikoua (talk)

”Kindly requested” followed by “childish excuse”. Real smooth. That’s a violation of WP:NPA, and it’s not the first time you have done it. I’d suggest refraining from discarding your fellow editors’ behaviours or opinions as childish in the future. Botushali (talk) 06:17, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Almost half a decade of not interacting with many of you on wiki talkpages and i stumble across this. Alexikoua you should retract and strike out "an Albanian wikipedia editor" and "the productive work of Balkan editors (Albanians in this case, since the one map was produced by user:Resnjari". I have never said nor claimed i am "Albanian", nor does my family have anything to do with Albania or even Kosovo! I have Balkan roots, but i am AUSTRALIAN by birth and citizenship and have not discussed my heritage on Wikipedia as it is a private matter. You should know better than doing that. You can address the editor and sources, per guidelines and policy, but not drift into other things. Also don't invoke me this way for point scoring. I would have preferred a respectful ping for involvement of a discussion where i and my wiki contributions are mentioned in large part with the choice being mine for involvement. As i recall from memory you were vehemently against this map i made late last decade based on Kokolakis when i placed it on certain pages relevant to its content. Now your singing its praises? HmmmmResnjari (talk) 10:43, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Nope that's not true, I've actually suggested Kokollakis. By the way, 'Albanian editor' can also mean Albanian origin.Alexikoua (talk) 02:44, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I haven't been around for a long while to interact with many on the talkpages, but my memory is crisp especially of my interactions with you Alexikoua. You were NOT supportive of my map when it was only focused on the Cham geographical space, and then put a unreferenced disclaimer on it after all else failed on your part. When i saw what you wrote first, questions that arose for me were why would you refer to origin? What does that or anything else of that nature (which is WP:TALKOFFTOPIC) have to do with editing here? I never mentioned i have an "Albanian origin". It doesn't make what you wrote here any better. Although all 3 refer to the same page, I remind you of WP:OUTING WP:PRIVACY WP:DOX. Removal is a step right direction.Resnjari (talk) 23:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Constructive editors should focus on content. I've said that the specific map was supported and created by you and also that it was a sourced map and good to stay. I assume that's a weird way to express your appreciation.Alexikoua (talk) 19:44, 17 March 2024 (UTC)