Talk:Doukhobors/Archive 1

Archive 1

Can you be a Christian and not believe in the divinity of Christ?

According to most since the First Council of Nicea, no. But this is a matter of ecumenical debate. I just dropped by to add the BC Wikiproject template but know a bit about this so: the whole point of Doukhobor belief, like that of certain other anabaptist groups like the Cathars, is transcendent of the existence of a church or a need for one. By anabaptist here I use the termn to mean explicitly heretical Christian groups which were never part of the Catholic-Orthodox structure - which was a product and also the driving force behind the Council of Nicaea. Which should be understood not to have been a Christian council so much as a Roman imperial political council on what Christianity was going to be and how it would serve the interests of the Empire, of Caesar. Likewise Chalcedon (which is one reason the Assyrian and Persian and Nestorian and Assyrian Churches all said by-by there, and not just because most were monophysite). Christianity is not defined or limited to the known historical churches; the historical heresies are just as important and quite often a lot more vibrant; as with the Amish or also with the Hutterites and Doukhobors. The Doukhobor philosophical teachings are said to be traceable back to the Bogomil heresy of the Balkans, which is also connected with the Cathari in Italy and France and ultimately was said to have roots in the MidEast, in the very thew of early Christianity - not a method of community or political oragnization, which is a church; but a teaching. Bible literalism and other modern perceptions of Christianity are just that; living a Christ-like life is the Doukhobor trip, living the teaching, rather than preaching it. I'm not Doukhobor but I'm always impressed by their position on various matters and participation in the local peace and ecological movements, and rather than being a conservative force in the West Kootenay and Boundary (as other Christian groups so often are, other than the United Church and Anglicans) they're very progressive in their social thinking and political awareness and all that. And I don't drive Hwy 3 often, but there's this place in Grand Forks for borscht...Skookum1 08:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Something might be added about how they are often incorrectly associated with the Freedomites or both terms are used synonymously. My dad grew up in Mount Vernon, Washington and there was a lot of sensationalist media coverage on them by the CBC. They were treated like Jim Jones or Waco, when infact the Doukhobors themselves are of course, harmless Russian-Canadian pacifists. Khirad 00:45, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

They aren't "incorrectly associated with the Freedomites", the Freedomites were the most radical group of Orthodox Doukhobours (vs the Reformed who are not so communalistic nor anti-industry nor anti-state, not as in the sense of the Orthodox Church), but they - the Sons of Freedom - were still Doukhobours and family lines crossed over the thin boundary between the two groups quite often. Yes, the CBC did sensationalize and demonize them, so did Simma Holt, whose books on them were best-sellers. I'm from BC and was raised with the image of morbidly obese Freedomite women, and their young daughters, standing bare-breasted in front of burning houses, and remember the Doukhobour camp at Agassiz Mountain Prison (now Kent Institution), which was built especially for them, and other Doukhobours, not just Freedomites, came and camped out there (large tenement camp, looked like the Third World). The Union of Spiritual Communities of Christ, the pan-Doukhobour organization, eschews violence as "true" Doukhobours should (as they believe in Christ-like behaviour, rather than obsessing over the story of the Resurrection and Salvation). The Freedomites were nothing like Waco or Jim Jones (especially nothing like the latter), they were simply anti-industrialization and wanted to stay true to the core beliefs of their faith; communalism, a life separate from the temporal state (including public education), and were ready to undertake extreme measures to achieve this; which they did not. People with Freedomite forebearers are common in the Doukhobour community even today, it's not a subject I've ever broached with the modern Doukhobours I've met; but they were not separate from the Doukhobour community, more like a secret network of anti-state radicals within the community; they did not have guns, they used bombs, also. And did not commit mass suicide like Jim Jones' followers, that's for sure.Skookum1 (talk) 16:29, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

vegetarianism amongst Doukhobours

Hello all. I was very impressed by the Doukhobour philosophy, especially the fact that they were vegetarian! Can ayone tell me if they are still vegetarian in current times? Thanks! - Tushar Mehta

Some are, some aren't. It's based on Tolstoy, who was a vegetarian, but of course, not everyone is strict with their religion. I know plenty of jews who eat pork. -- TheMightyQuill 12:39, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

A lot of the philosophy of the vegetarianism is attributed to the idea of peace and nonviolence. I am a Doukhobor myself, but I don't adhere strictly to the vegetarian ways. Many of my relatives do eat meat, but our traditional dishes are still vegetarian, and many meals served at large gatherings (Weddings and funerals) are usually vegetarian, or mostly vegetarian. VinnyDeath

it would be really nice if a section on their cuisine and traditional recipes could be included in this article! there's hardly a mention of it and seeing as they're on the vegetarianism and religion link, i think more should be added on their beliefs around food and what they ate. Xfireworksx (talk) 03:14, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it would be. Like I said in another section, I have fond memories of the borscht in the Yale Hotel in Grand Forks....I think Doukhobour cuisine or some recipes were transferred into the local vegetarian cuisine developed by the hippie element, though I doubt anyone points that out, unless it's perogies or borscht or the like.Skookum1 (talk) 16:37, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Nudity

I remember reading newspaper articles about the British Columbia Doukobors practicing nudity associated with some beliefs about the Garden of Eden, and about feuds between two branches of Doukobors resulting in some shootings. The trials were held with the accused and the jury of his Doukobor peers in the nude. Does anyone know more about this? Filll October 5, 2006

See Freedomites. -- TheMightyQuill 23:28, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Worldview

If there are really 30,000 Doukhobors in Russia, perhaps this article should give information on them too. Anyone? -- TheMightyQuill 03:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

That would be interesting. How would we get information on them I wonder? We need Russian members to help us !--Filll 03:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Interesting that although there's no Russian article on Doukhobors, there's an article in Georgian. Still, as far as I know, they were all ethnic Russian, not just from the Russian empire. - TheMightyQuill 03:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

the gergian dukhobors are an extremely interesting if small and dwindling group, their villages in javakheti in southern georgia contain what they call the mecca of the dukhobors: the house and final resting place of their last hereditary prophet-leader. this certainly merits attention in the article, see the european council on minority integration report, 2006

Do Doukhobors belong to the Old Believers?

This article is certainly in need of attention of an expert on the subject. I'm not pretending being one, but I do happen to know enough about the Old Believers to know for sure that - in cannot be said often enough - Doukhobors do NOT belong to the Old Believers and that they do NOT originate neither from the Schism of 1666-67 nor the Old Believers. They appeared only in the 18th century, as did the Molokans, also a sect mistakenly considered to be from Old Believers' origine, and are highly influenced by protestant teachings. In this repect this article contained some very strange and - I dare say - false statements and I took the liberty to delete them. See S.A. Zenkovsky's book about Russia's Old Believers on the subject (S.A. Zenkovky, Russia's Old Believers, Moscow 2006/Зеньковский С.А. Русское старообрядчество, Москва 2006). The Doukhobors (and Molokans) aren't even being mentioned in this standard work - and that's not an omission by the author, it's simply because they are not Old Believers. It obviously can't be repeated enough. It's also an absolute puzzle to me why both of these sects should have got anything to do with Eastern Orthodoxy... Vasilij 16:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

"It's also an absolute puzzle to me why both of these sects should have got anything to do with Eastern Orthodoxy." I don't know enough about the Doukhobors to comment, but the connection between the Old Believers and "Eastern Orthodoxy" is clear. They maintain traditional ritual usages from the Russian Orthodox Church, which that church moved away from.
"They appeared only in the 18th century ..." Is this certain? There are plenty of authors who think they originated earlier than that. It seems to me the article should reflect the differences in scholarly opinions, so I have amended the article to do so. JamesBWatson (talk) 22:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I got no credentials other than my word for it, but what I'm about to say is standard stuff in the history of heterodox Christianity (i.e. "heresies"). The closest theological/christological group to the Doukhobors are the Bogomil, an anabaptist group that flourished in the Balkans - around Yugoslavia was their focus, which were at some point crushed by the Byzantine Empire; one group fled west and became the Cathars of southern France, the group that fled in the other direction were taken in by the Khans of the Volga - can't remember if it was the Khazars at the time but maybe 'twas, bu otherwise the Golden Horde or Giray Khans; Moslem rulers often tolerate Christian sects persecuted by the official churc hes, or did in times past if not now. They "appeared" in the Russian Empire in the 18th Century as the empire grew and absorbed the area in which they had been long settled by then; same as ow the Crimean Gothic population was "discovered" by Catherine the Great, once she conquered the place. But in short, and simply put as possible, the relationship between the Doukhbours and the Eastern Orthodox church; particularly its older forms as represented by the Old Believers, was the persecution of the forme by the latter; their only affninity with the Old Beleivefrs is in sharing persecution by the state church....Skookum1 (talk) 03:09, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Animal Emancipation

While I'm sure the comment attached to the picture of the women pulling the plough may be correct in some aspects, Doukhobors, particularly the Sons of God, practiced animal emancipation, whereby all draft animals were released of their duties and humans were conscripted to take the place of the animals. I believe the picture of the women pulling the plough may allude to this aspect of their belief system. I'm not sure how to alter the caption. Reference is to C. Yerbury, "The 'Sons of Freedom': Doukhobors and the Canadian State," Canadian Ethic Studies, 16, 2, (1984):47-70. K-80did (talk) 09:41, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposed work group

There is currently discussion regarding the creation of a work group specifically to deal with articles dealing with this subject, among others, here. Any parties interested in working in such a group are welcome to indicate their interest there. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 17:33, 15 March 2009 (UTC)