Talk:Enver Pasha/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1

Ismail Enver

We all know Ismail Enver as Enver Pasha. Why don't we move this article into Enver Pasha? Burgaz 13:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Pasha is a military title. It would be like moving Jennifer Şebnem Schaefer to "Actress Schaefer" because "We all know" . Thanks.--OttomanReference 16:38, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

In Turkish Temel Britannica, the article's name is Enver Paşa. In all of the books I have read including school books his name is given as Enver Paşa. I feel that many of people who have heard Enver Paşa before knows his name as Enver Paşa. Burgaz 17:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

  • Easy solution would be to add a redirect for Enver Paşa that comes here, then. 155.188.183.7 22:09, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
  • The name of this article must be "Enver Pasha" Böri (talk) 11:51, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
Off course. Takabeg (talk) 00:38, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Libya (Trablusgarp) and others...

The article misses some important details. For example when you read the background part, you think that just because he learned the German style of warfare, he rose rapidly and became a pasha but it is not the truth. He was highly successful during the Trablusgarp War back in 1911, then he played a key role during the proclaimation of the Second Ottoman Constitution. He was one of the key people during the March 31st Uprising (31 Mart Olayı, a religious uprising which was supported by the emperor - Enver's side put the uprising down). After his party (thanks to his active role) took the control of the empire, he saved Edirne from invasion. Only after all this success, he became a pasha. With respect, Deliogul 19:37, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Look, if nobody has counter-claims against the facts that I mentioned above, I'm going to put them into the article. I'm waiting your comments. With respect, Deliogul 12:40, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
RECENT EDITS; I entered many new details to the article in recent days. Before I forget, thank you OttomanReference for your recent edits about the order of the article and new details that you entered. With respect, Deliogul 17:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

suspect?

Some of the information, such as the assertion that German commanders were 'always defeated' looks pretty suspect.

That was recently added. I've removed it now. —Khoikhoi 05:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

he is also known as Enver Bey

Ismail Enver is also known as Enver Bey. If noone is agaist, I add this to the article. Bey was the position he had, before becoming Pasha. Regards!

Virgilio 23:22, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

was he shot by armenians?

http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Enver_Pasha

Armeniapedia claims he was shot actually by Armenian soldiers in Tajikistan. However, I can't find any other source?


There is no source that he was actually show by Armenians. Dukak 15:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

If a remember right, the PBS documentary on the Armenian Genocide cited that he was shot in Tajikistan. I'm not sure if it was by Armenians or by Tajiks. -- Clevelander 00:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
It is alleged that the Red Army soldier that shot him was Armenian but there is no concrete proof or even a name for that matter to my knowledge.--Eupator 14:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Enver Bey made a frontal cavalry charge against the Soviet machine guns when the defeat became obvious. He died with his sword in his hand. This Armenian soldier's revenge theory is just romance. Actually every red head communist would like to kill a true nationalist like Enver Bey. With respect, Deliogul 23:46, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Wow what a wild entry about communists. Frankly speaking, I haven't been thinking that bad about socialism for a couple of time. I guess there is big problem about Russians instead of socialism. For a century, they tried monarchy,communism and democracy and the results are all rubbish :D Deliogul 20:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Deleted

I deleted the Wikiproject Armenia from this page. Enver Bey was %100 Turkish and nothing to do with Armenia. Also not "tens of thousand" soldiers died in the Battle of Sarıkamış. Weather conditions caused the death of 7,000 Ottoman soldier. Russian Imperial Army also lost this much troops due to weather. 7,000 more Ottoman soldiers were killed during the war by the Russians. With respect, Deliogul 13:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Ever heard to the Armenian Genocide? —Khoikhoi 00:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Enver Bey was a Turkish hero. He took place in wars at three continents for his country. He was murdered while he was trying to form a unified Turkic state(Turan). Only barbaric west can do genocides but not the noble Turkish nation. Armenian Genocide is a political made-up. With respect, Deliogul 22:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for informing me. Now I know the truth. —Khoikhoi 00:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
You welcome. Actually I didn't try to explain some kind of truth to anyone. We, Turkish nationalists, love Enver Bey. I don't really understand how a tiny country like Armenia can cause this much debate. With respect, Deliogul 11:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

70.114.231.223 20:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)==The Unknown User==

An unknown user changed the part about the Battle of Sarıkamış. He/she argues that thousands of troops died without even using their rifles but its all wrong. Turkish Army couldn't reach to its major goal but kept Russians where they are for a time. If you want to learn futher information go to Talk:Battle of Sarikamis. "About the War" title belongs to me. With respect, Deliogul 17:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


"Only[the] barbaric west can do genocides but not the noble Turkish nation."


Oh my! I am certain the Sudanese agree with you...surely they consider bleeding on or from Muslim weapons, whether they are Christian, lesser Muslim (in their murderers' eyes), or other, a most noble death-they probably are so overwhelmed by the nobility of their murderers that they prefer death to living another day. And all those conflicts and wars all over the world whose common denominator, for the most part, is Muslim involvment? The deaths of those opposing the Muslims, again including weaker Muslims or, hmm, less bloodthirsty Muslims (or maybe outnumbered or less well equipped), is oh so most certainly approbative and providential. Why cannot Dar-al-Harb and Muslim-Lite understand that they do not have equal rights to the air to breathe? Don't they know that when a Muslim says a Muslim cause or state is noble, it must be...after all, a Muslim used the word "noble"...doesn't that immediately render all the havoc and bloodshed they wreak sacrosanct? Silly Armenians, what were they thinking? How could they not understand what a holy, godly thing it is to be bled at the hands of such pious folk as the Muslims. The deaths of hundreds of thousands if not over a million Armenians at the hands of Turkish Muslims cannot be a genocide or even a bad thing. After all, a Muslim Turk says Turkey is noble, and as we all know, when a Muslim speaks of morality, we must all take it as the strict axiomatic truth that it is. Anyway, this is all silly rhetoric; as we know, Islam is the Religion of Peace, Muslims aren't violent, and you better not suggest that they are or, well, they will threaten to kill you or succeed given the opportunity. But that isn't violent, gentle readers....it's noble.

70.114.231.223 20:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)mdh.ubiquitous

First of all I am a Turkish nationalist not an Islamic extremist. So I got nothing to do with religious issues. Turkey is a secular state and has no state religion. You must talk Islamic issues with Arabs or other religion freak terrorists. Hmmm but you are right, Armenians sometimes can be "silly" because Armenia is a sweet tiny country with lots of great places to visit but they always try to fight with big boys. And you are also right about being bloody. Turks smashed many armies (therefore many nations) through their way up to Anatolia from Central Asia and its nothing to do with religion. It only shows how successful warriors we are. Still I hope some further discussions will be made so we can improve the article of Enver Pasha. With respect, Deliogul 12:23, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Birth and familiy

According to the 1911 encyclopedia he "was of very humble origin. He was born in Abana, near the Black Sea, where his father was a bridge-keeper and his mother followed the despised profession of laying out the dead." Not quite the same as this article states... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Babaroga (talk • contribs)

Enver Paşa was a Gagauz Turk(a Turkish clan that its members still live around the Black Sea). His ancestors may came from there. For example, my ancestors came from Sivas(a city in the middle of Anatolia) to Istanbul and I was born in Istanbul. Other false claims can easily be explained by saying than "this is a British source" simply because Enver and Britions were arc-rivals. With respect, Deliogul 22:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Just because Enver and the British /government/ were enemies does not mean that the Encyclopedia Britannica can so easily be dismissed. That would be like the British saying 'oh, you can't take the word of any Turk on anything, because Enver did not like the British.' 155.188.183.7 22:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Can you provide reliable sources that state this? Thanks. —Khoikhoi 03:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry for posting an unsigned remark. According to Mark Gilbert's book First World War he was born in Abana. I've done a google search and found out that several sources claim Istanbul to be his birthplace. Just as many claim Abana. To insinuate that a respected encyclopedia like Britannica willingly uses false information, which then would look like pure propaganda, I think is farfetched. I think we are much better off trying to find the correct information. One explanation that comes to mind is that history shows that several state leaders or prominent politicians have tried to slightly change their own history to make it seem better. Another might be that his parents were from Abana and that he was actually born there, but that his family moved when he was a infant or a child. We need to find very reliable sources to confirm any information. Until then I think we maybe should consider putting on the {{disputed}} tag. Babaroga 07:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Much of that account is inaccurate. The man's religion was Zionism, as were his two cohorts. I'm surprised that there isn't one mention of his real ancestry on here. It's as if people want to ignore his real background of Zionist Jewry. - Zarbon (talk) 02:07, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

According to the German language CV written by Enver himself (published in M. Şükrü Hanioğlu (ed.), Kendi Mektuplarında Enver Paşa, İstanbul 1989, pp. 267-282), Enver was born in Istanbul and his family was not rich. Quote: "Im Jahre 1299 des Moharemmonats, Mittwoch um 12 Uhr (6. Dez. 1882) bin ich in Constantinople, in unserem Hause im Divan jolu, gegenüber der alten Sprachschule geboren. Unsere Familie war nicht reich ..." As I do not have an English language reference available, I use this citation and change the place of birth accordingly. Hplqr (talk) 15:15, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Link in Last year section.

The link to 'Ibrahim Bey' in the section 'The last year' leads to someone else. Pukkie 10:11, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Genocide?

Why is the Armenian Genocide ignored completely in this article, except for a little sidebar mention? Anyone trying to use this article will be getting a biased article, missing one of the major points in Enver's life. HumanProdigy 21:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Because there is already an article with the name Armenian Genocide and there is no need to write things twice, if anyone wonders the connection s/he can click the sidebar and lose 1 minute ;) Qghvz 02:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the very fact that much of this man's life revolved around mass extermination of Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, and other Aryan peoples has a lot to do with his own profile. The very fact that much of his religion and beliefs are also ignored in the profile proves that this profile fails to accomplish anything but be a one-sided unencyclopedic resource. - Zarbon (talk) 02:04, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I added Category:Enver Pasha as a subcategory of Category:Wikipedia categories named after criminals on the grounds of the Armenian Genocide. Okay?--Solomonfromfinland (talk) 20:49, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

I can't even read this.

The grammar and english in this page is an absolute mess. Is there anyone in the Wiki community who is well versed in this section of Turkish history who can actually write in readable english? The worst of it is in the Democratic Republic of Armenia section, but it is almost as bad everywhere else. HumanProdigy 22:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

It is not only the grammar. The whole article is a mess. I dont know how they creat articles in wikipedia. Probably using some cut and paste. What do you expect from a source where everybody can make any edits. Try to read the article "central caspian dictatorship". You will never understand who was fighting with whom, who was behind whom, who attacked whom and why. But they are very politically correct in wikipedia. For example when they say Armenians massacred Azeris during the central caspian dictatorship then they will also mentioned that Azeris killed Armenians back after recapturing Baku. If you edit any incorrect facts you will be reverted immediately by Grandmaster and Khoikhoi. I dont know whats going on with the whole part of Armenian Azerbaijani history but I know one thing Khoikhoi and Grandmaster are here to cite what they want, correct and edit whom they want, revert anything they want. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArmenianNY (talk • contribs)

We worked a lot on this article couple of times a go. It was just a short essay when we started and today it has many sections with deeper information on Enver Paşa's life. Grammar can be bad for you but then you must try to correct our mistakes. See you, Deliogul 11:11, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

In order to correct the grammatic mistakes one needs to understand the whole meaning or the context of the section. Wouldn't it be nice to have a shorter essay but at least readable or undertandable then a long paranoia where everybody can wrtie whatever comes to his mind. The section about so called Democratic Republic of Armenia is written by a person who writes his own thoughts or his conversation with a friend. Who is going to correct this bazaar conversation. It just needs to be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ArmenianNY (talk • contribs)

That section was created after my edits. Actually, I don't think that it would be enough for understanding a key figure like Enver Bey in a short essay, even if it would be readable. We can discuss the changes you want here. We can put "disputed" and "citation needed" marks on some claims in the article. We can reach to a better article with your help. See you, Deliogul 16:29, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

THEN do a favor for all of us, as an editor remove the part about Republic of Armenia. It is not even relevant to Enver. Just remove it.--armenianNY 20:12, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

citations?

This needs a lot of citations which it doesn't have. It gives quotes like what exactly Enver was charged with by the Turkish government, but without any citation to verify. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.22.70.201 (talk) 17:12, 4 March 2007 (UTC).

Yes, for example the cause of Enver's death differs in the "Pan-Turkism" section and the "Aftermath" section. Which is right? Killed in a cavalry charge or overrun in a village? Citations would help. --Kbk 14:17, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

He was killed in a last cavalry charge against Socialist forces at Turkestan. Some says that when Enver Pasha gave his orders and charge against enemy, none of his supporters followed him. Of course this part is possibly a legend which was created thanks to the romantic/tragic notion of Enver Pasha's life but it is clear that he was shot to death on the battlefield. Deliogul 20:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Bashkirs, really?

Bashkirs of 1918-1920s were nearly unanimously anti-communist and anti-Russian and were heavily persecuted at home. This passage on Red Bashkirs needs citations. NVO (talk) 20:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

The reversion of the request for a footnote for this, underscores how prevalent Wikipedia is in research - all online articles are derived from here! Therefore, more than ever, this deparately needs a credible footnote. Now it sounds like somebody made it up. Why is there no title for the author's book? Why is there no real reference.And why has an editor answered a good faith request with an offhand answer and reversion.
If you are having problems, please see other footnotes in the article or WP:FOOT for assistance.Student7 (talk) 22:15, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Reference

Feridun Kandemir,"Enver Paşa'nın Son Gũnleri", Gũven Yayınevi, 1955 , is not a reference, since it doesn't give a page number and isn't in English. So I'll be removing it. Kansas Bear (talk) 22:41, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

No need to be so hasty. Let's ask for a page number and a quote. If no-one responds after a reasonable amount of time, we can remove it. --Adoniscik(t, c) 02:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I am currently overseas, will provide page numbers soon. The book is in my library and page numbers a bit redundant as the whole book is about his last days, as told by witnesses, his loyal friends and officers who were with him. Then we will need to look at other non-primary sources so generously used by a pov editor.--Murat (talk) 23:12, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

We don't have time to read the whole book, so we need a page number to verify that particular assertion. --Adoniscik(t, c) 16:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Read Wikipedia's policy on references; WPNOE
Non-English sources
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors translate any direct quote, they should quote the relevant portion of the original, non-English text in a footnote or in the article. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors. Kansas Bear (talk) 01:20, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
Sure, English is preferred to Turkish here. But a Turkish RS is preferable to nothing at all. --Adoniscik(t, c) 16:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

... and just as I said that, I see the issue has became moot. --Adoniscik(t, c) 16:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

The same information that is cited as coming from the Feridun Kandemir source is also in English in Peter Hopkirk's "Setting the East Ablaze". He gives the source as a 1922 Turkish book by Sevket Aydemir (Hopkirk calls him "Enver's biographer"). Whether Aydemir's account is an entirely or even partially true account, who knows. But it is a source. As for the alternative version, if it too has a source then it too should be mentioned - but it does conflict with what seems to be the majority opinion and so I think it should not come first. Meowy 19:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

BTW, "Interview with Y.Melkumov (In Russian) in the Armenian daily 'Novoe Vremya'" is not a proper reference, it needs to have page numbers and a date of issue (or a direct url link). Meowy 20:09, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

One can cite two renditions of the same event by two different eye witnesses, but if one of them is NOT an eye witness account, but only a third party and OBVIOUSLY a propagandizing Armenian journalist, who was not within 1000 km of the place, writing in an obscure Armenian journal, then there is really only one reference and only one real version. Enver's last days were witnessed by numerous people, some who were with him for many years, and this is the way it has been told in all other sources I have ever read. It is such an obvious fabrication, such a blatant display of ethnic hatred dictating fake history - again!. Why not then give coverage to UFO abductions here also? To insist on "equal time" for a bogus story that completely contradicts eye witness accounts is an insult to wiki, but then again, the standards have been so lowered by these disruptive editors and facts so mangled, that it may not be such a serious offense anymore. It may have the one benefit of exposing the true nature of these so-called editors. The facts remain, as always.--Murat (talk) 03:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the non-eyewitness account is that of Aydemir. Melkumov was the commander of the Red Army unit that killed Enver. Meowy 02:43, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Neither of the "sources" are acceptable references. Read Wikipedia's policy on references; WPNOE
Non-English sources
Because this is the English Wikipedia, for the convenience of our readers, editors should use English-language sources in preference to sources in other languages, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality, so that readers can easily verify that the source material has been used correctly. Where editors translate any direct quote, they should quote the relevant portion of the original, non-English text in a footnote or in the article. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:52, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
They are acceptable references - they are actual sources, Wikipedia does not ban the use of non-English sources. However, since the Aydemir version of his death is recounted in English in the book by Hopkirk, that can be used as a reference rather than the Aydemir or Kandemir ones. As for the alternative version of his death - I do remember reading about it in an English-language article about the fates of the various "Young Turk" leaders. So an English-language source for it does exists somewhere, it just has to be found. But an Armenian or Russian-language source would still be permissable. Meowy 20:24, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
The Basmachi revolt is a huge part of the Soviet history, and there is a plethora of russophone sources of Enver's end. Galassi (talk) 20:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
And are we to take Soviet-period propaganda at face value? Both versions of his death seem to be filled with obvious fabrications, and both have clearly been written to fit with the expectations of their own partisan audiences. BTW, this book review in JStor may contain something useful http://www.jstor.org/pss/3015450 - if anyone here has got an account. The google quote from it says "More romantic is the story of the last adventure of Enver Pasha, but one is surprised to find that Mr. Fischer is credulous enough to reproduce the fable of ...". Meowy 20:54, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Soviet sources are not necessarily propaganda, and it would be a big mistake to automatically assume that they were. The Soviets were not likely to embellish the gory details, while they do in fact tend to be tendentious about an enemy's personal character. Galassi (talk) 21:05, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
Well, I did read one of those cited articles using google translate - I don't want to search through it again, so I will just have to quote from memory one phrase that stuck in my mind - it went something like "in those days, for the local population the word 'Bolshevik' meant the same as 'hero'" - if that isn't propaganda then what is, especially since it was the dictatorial, heavy-handed and completely un-heroic actions of the Bolsheviks that re-ignited the Basmachi revolt. I think straightforward facts (dates, events, etc) are mostly likely to be true, but any embelishments have to be treated with caution. Meowy 20:54, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Origins

"Enver Bey was born to a wealthy family in Constantinople" the article currently states, without giving a source. So what has happened to the "born in Adano" and "his father was a bridge-keeper and his (Albanian) mother followed the despised profession of laying out the dead" information that was discussed earlier in this talk page? All that did have a source - and the same details are repeated in a number of books such as "Gallipoli" by Alan Moorehead, and "Setting the East Ablaze" by Peter Hopkirk. Meowy 20:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Death by slashing?

Killed by slashing??? Sounds like an armenian day dream to me. There were hundreds of witnesses of Enver Paşa's death. Besides his uniform is full of bullet holes by a machine gun. Lies lies lies --B-e-sad (talk) 19:09, 31 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by B-e-sad (talk • contribs) 19:02, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Prease refrain from vandalizing this article. You cannot delete properly sourced text.Galassi (talk) 19:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
It is not properly sourced at the moment - if you have a proper source, then give it. Meowy 14:33, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't read your "properly sourced text". Please first find an offical translation of your "properly sourced text" to english. This claim is nothing but a dream of armenians who have failed to asssasinate him. Nothing else. Another thing the day he died is not 4th but 5th of august. Could you also tell if this melkumov guy "slashed" Enver Paşa why there were no proof up until now? Normally armenians who are proud of their terrorism would have beheaded him which they always do when they are able to high ranking officers. I will also provide you writings from Enver Paşa's right hand man about how he died and he is an actual witness to Enver Paşa's death. These claims about slashing are not true and backed up by "someone" saying something and "someone" writing it on internet. So if I claim Enver Paşa kiiled 50 russian soldiers on his last charge with sword alone and find a writing about it on internet would that make it real or not? It's the same thing that you are doing here. Altough everybody who knows a little WW1 history knows how Enver Paşa died I will respect wikipedias rules and won't delete it but I request that you submit an translation (not translated by you but by the sources site) and that you verify it by multiple sources (not by one sites claims) I will start deleting it again in 3 days if you don't do these. And yes I can delete it. wikipedia says "If you don't want your writing to be edited , do not submit it. " --B-e-sad (talk) 19:46, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

The alternative story is quite well known, and it is a claim by an eyewitness. However, as I had written earlier, its current source is not valid due to its incompleteness. Neither of the versions sound completely believable to me - they both seem embellished. If "hundreds witnessed it", as you wrote, then why, according to the version you want retained, did his body lie unrecognised for several days? BTW, I've changed "slashed to death" to "killed". Meowy 14:28, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be an intolerance here by some, even to the most simple and smallest of facts. Eye witness accounts, by his friends and loyal followers, vs more "he said, she said" that can not be verified by any means. More and more, this place has become an alternate-reality depository for those who can not live with truth. It is so obvious and blatant that sometimes it is best left alone, as a monument to self-deception.--Murat (talk) 18:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The only problem is the insertion of blatantly trivial details and possible exaggerations and audience-preaching in the alternative account - however, it too is an eyewitness account. I'm going to attempt to remove them again. I hope Galassi will not reinsert them and instead consider Murat's words. Would Galassi wish even more of the obvious hagiography within the "Turkish" account to be inserted into the article to counteract that "ethnic duty" stuff within the "Armenian" account? Meowy 17:52, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Nationality/Religion/etc.

There's a lot of inaccuracies I am finding in this profile. As an encyclopedic resource, it's surprising that it still hasn't been altered. However, I will be civil in bringing this up. The fact remains that Ismail Enver, Mehmed Talat, and Ahmed Djemal are all Zionist Jews. In this profile, for example, it says something of an Albanian nationality. That in itself is an inaccurate account of his background. Yes, the man was in command of Ottoman Turks and of the Ottoman Empire. But people forget to mention the fact that his actual bloodline and his being a descendant, and actual religious beliefs (derived from and belonging to) Zionism. He was a Zionist Jew who wanted to command a systematic elimination of Armenians (who obtained Christianity first) because he associated the Armenians with Malokites (enemies of Jewry). It's very important that these factual ideologies are noted in an encyclopdic resource such as this. People fail to mention or even associate his background accurately. Just because he led Turks and allowed them to slaughter people, doesn't necessarily make him a Turk. His Zionist meetings took place in Salonika Greece. That's where most of the descendants of Zionist beliefs met up. Generally, it's also the reason why much of this information is being covered up and isn't known by many. I don't want to go on a rant. I just want to bring to attention that the Zionist background of the triumvirate (Enver, Talat, Djemal) should definitely be mentioned as it's their firm belief and it was the major cause of their military orders, lifetime decisions and religious beliefs. - Zarbon (talk) 02:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

  • He was not a Jew! Böri (talk) 11:55, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Enver Pasha, like myriads of Ottoman citizens assimilated into the Turkish milleu, was Albanian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.243.47.22 (talk) 16:52, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

1908 and CUP

It is claimed that "The successful revolt brought the CUP to power, ushering the so-called "Second Constitutional Era" of the Ottoman Empire" As far as I know, this statement is only partially correct. Yes, it was the second constitutional ( or rather constitutional monarchy) era. But CUP didn't take part in the government. CUP's power days began after 31st of March incident. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:53, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

 Sentence fixed according to scholarship.Resnjari (talk) 10:52, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Common name

Takabeg (talk) 00:37, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:09, 26 June 2011 (UTC)


İsmail Enver → Enver Pasha – per WP:COMMONNAME: GoogleBooks Ngram Viewer comparison. Constantine ✍ 07:14, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

  • Support per Constantine. And support for Djemal Pasha & Talat Pasha. Takabeg (talk) 07:24, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment "Pasha" is a military title. This ngram shows way more usage for "General Grant" than for "Ulysses S. Grant." Just think if we did this for civilians. We'd have articles titled "President Clinton" and "Chairman Mao". Kauffner (talk) 12:15, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Pasha, Bey, Efendi etc. are used in historiography (List of Ottoman Grand Viziers). General Grant has his surname. As to "General Grant" that's different. Nobody calls him "General Ulysses" (and "Chairman Zedong") in histriography :) But Enver, Djemal, Talat... didn't have their surnames. If they had surnames, I prefer to use surname instead of Pasha, Bey, Efendi etc. For example, Fakhri Pasha (Ömer Fahreddin Pasha) is popular name in English during WWI. But he had got his surname "Türkkan" and became Ömer Fahrettin Türkkan. In this case we can chose Ömer Fahrettin Türkkan as the name of the article. Takabeg (talk) 12:41, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Unlike Clinton or Grant, Ottoman Turks did not have last names, and their titles were part of their names. Otherwise either their brithplace or father's name were added to the name to distinguish. For example Ismet Paşa. He was rarely refered to with his full name. Sometimes even just Paşa.
  • Support Enver Paşa is the correct name though. Murat (talk) 02:23, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Exactly. For Ottoman names, the title is part of the name. It's the convention of the language itself, and has been followed in English (and every other language I know of) as well. Constantine ✍ 13:21, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment Reality is Enver Paşa is how he is known and remembered - NOT Pasa or Pasha!. Technicalities can be and should be dealt within the article and/or with re-directs, there is something called "common use". After all, the idea is for users to reach to the information with ease. Murat (talk) 02:23, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Your point being? That we don't use the form "pasha" but "paşa"? This contradicts both WP:ENG and common use. Constantine ✍ 13:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
  • Support as nominated. "Enver Pasha" is the common name in English-language sources. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:42, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Armenian genocide

The introduction of this article makes Ismail Enver seem like a great man. Shouldn't the introduction mention his major role in the Armenian genocide and that he was assassinated for it? This is as unfair as leaving out Ratko Mladic's war crimes because Serb nationalists deny any wrongdoing by him. 69.171.178.12 (talk) 20:35, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

"He strongly propagated Pan-Turkism, which is often considered as one of the reasons for the Armenian Genocide."
This sentence has been included in the article, Ismail Enver was a Pan-Turkist which is a known fact and I also do believe it is one of the main reasons the Armenian Genocide happend. Redman19 (talk) 10:07, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
It is a charged topic and relevant facts seem to matter little. Nevertheless, in essence, Enver was a military man. His focus was mostly on glory in the battle field. Surely his role as a "supreme" leader makes him responsible for all that happened under his watch, but tehcir was mostly designed and implemented by Talat Pasha, who was the civilian in the cabinet as well as the political brain trust. They were ALL influenced by the vicious nationalism of the numerous groups in the Ottoman Empire, especially during Balkan Wars. While this was certainly a factor in their thinking, Armenians specifically presented an existential threat in the East. They were cooperating with Russians and helping them, successfully, invade ancient Turkish provinces and cleanse them of local Muslim populations. Van Rebellion broke out at the same time Allies were landing at Gallipoli. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hudavendigar (talk • contribs) 22:25, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Half-brother?

Someone has written to me who is familiar with the current descendants of this family to say that our calling Enver and Nuri half-brothers is mistaken. I don't know enough about this topic to be able to figure it out for myself, but it seems like a sincere correction and I don't see any obvious sources claiming that they have different mothers/fathers. Our confusion may have arisen by the fact that Nuri later in life took a surname per the Surname Law. Pasha is a title, and Enver did not have a surname. Nuri took a surname, becoming Nuri Killigil.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:13, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

The "half-brother" statement seems to be supported by numerous reliable sources though [1][2][3][4][5][6][7]. Of course, there are equally many sources that call them simply "brothers" too, but then, in a culture where male polygamy was legal and common, it was probably the case that having different mothers was simply not a fact thought to be particularly significant, so the difference between what we would call full brothers or half-brothers wouldn't be much of an issue in contemporary sources. Couldn't quickly find any more details about who their mothers might have been though. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:00, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Update: the most detailed source I've been able to locate so far does speak only of one wife, although it just scrapes by without literally clarifying that she was the mother of all the children. So it's all a bit messy.

Enver Paşa'nın (1881–1922) annesi Ayşe Hanım, babası Hacı Ahmet Paşa (1860-1947)'dır. Ailenin, Enver Paşa'dan başka beş çocuğu daha vardır. Bunlar: Hasene (1887–1963), Nuri Paşa (1889–1949), Mediha Orbay (1894–…), Kamil (1898–1964), Ertuğrul (1907–1931)'dur.
["The mother of Enver Pasha (1881–1922) was Ayşe; his father was Haci Ahmet Pasha (1860–47). There were five more children besides Enver Pasha in the family. They were: Hasene (1887–1963), Nuri Pasha (1889–1949), Mediha Orbay (1894–…), Kamil (1898–1964) and Ertuğrul (1907–1931)"]
Halil Erdoğan: Enver Paşa'nın Anıları (1881–1908), Istanbul: İletişim, 1991., p.33

Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:53, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Jimbo Wales & Fut.Perf.:

Even some Turkish researchers refer to Nuri Killigil as Enver Paşa'nın üvey kardeşi (Enver's half-brother). For example, Günay Göksu Özdoğan, in her work Turan'dan Bozkurt'a -Tek Parti Döneminde Türkçülük (1931-1946)-, İletişim Yayınları, 2001, p. 154, 159. However, according to Atilla Oral's specific and detailed research: Nuri Killigil -Enver Paşa'nın kardeşi-, Demkar Yayınevi, Haziran 2016 ISBN 978-605-89728-8-2, p. 536. (Photograph of the tombstone of their mother Ayşe, elder sister Hasene Killigil and nephew E. İffet Alkin), Ayşe Hanım (Ayşe Dilara Hanım), who died in 23 November 1932, is the mother of both Enver and Nuri. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 11:55, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Descendants

In this E-Book from 2005, written by a Member of the former Ottoman Dynasty, the descendants of Enver Pasha and his Wife Emine Naciye Sultan and also here daughter by his Brother are all listed.

https://archive.org/stream/GenealogyOfTheImperialOttomanFamily2005/GenealogyOfTheImperialOttomanFamily2005_djvu.txt — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.248.135.59 (talk) 13:01, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Enver Pasha. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:59, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Enver Pasha. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 19:28, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Enver_Pasha/Archive_1&oldid=1143741046"