Talk:Erivan Fortress

Azeri name

Azerbaijani language is not and was never an official language in Yerevan (and coutries that included it). Yes, it was the native language of about half of pre-Russian revoltion Yerevan, but it doesn't mean the name can be added. For example, Tbilisi's population up to mid-19th century was mainly Armenian, but it doesn't mean that Armenian name can be added to the articles associating with Tbilisi.--Yerevanci (talk) 01:54, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

First of all, the term "official language" is not applicable to the Caucasus until the 1920s. If we go by the language of the court, Armenian would turn out to be less relevant to Yerevan than Azeri and Persian. I suggest we leave the issue of what was official and what was not.

Second of all, your Tbilisi analogy is also irrelevant, as the article is not about Yerevan, but about a landmark whose history is closely related to the times of the Azeri rule in the khanate. It seems biased that a fortress built by a Turkish commander and restored by the vice-regent of Azerbaijan deserves to be mentioned in Armenian or Russian more than in Turkish or Azeri, don't you think? Parishan (talk) 11:29, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

There wasn't even a language called Azerbaijani before 1918. If you give me one neutral source from pre-1918 era that says that people in Erivan Khanate and later governorate spoke the Azerbaijani language, then I will agree to put the Azeri name here. In Russian sources they are called Caucasian Tatars (Кавказские татары), but never Azerbaijani. And their language was called Tatar not Azeri. This fortress has nothing to do with a modern country called Azerbaijan. Putting down the Azeri name here would only promote Azeri non-sense claims to Armenian lands, particularly to Yerevan, which they call an Azeri historical city and the fortress is their number one target of proving their claims. --Yerevanci (talk) 22:40, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Yerevanci, we have had this discussion already. Claims such as "there was no Azerbaijani" are nonsense.

1. A source from 1876:

V.V. Grigoriev (ed.). Труды третьего международного съезда ориенталистов в Санкт-Петербурге.

• "В Эриванской губернии адербейджанцы врезываются в армянское население, точно так же как мы это видим наоборот в Шушинском уезде Елисаветпольской и в Шемахинском Бакинский губернии."

2. A source from 1888:

Y. Weidenbaum. Очерк этнографии Кавказского края // Путеводитель по Кавказу. — Тифлис: Типография Канцелярии Главноначальствующего гражданской частью на Кавказе, 1888.

• "Адербейджанские турки , называемые обыкновенно закавказским татарами , составляют главную массу населения восточной половины Закавказья. Тюркское наречие их, подвергшееся сильному влиянию персидского языка, называется обыкновенно адербейджанским , по имени персидской провинции, пограничной с Закавказьем. Наречие это до сих пор не исследовано научным путем, равно не определена точным образом область его распространения. На западе оно соприкасается с наречием османли (турецким языком) населения Карсской области. Вверх по Куре оно доходит до Тифлиса, стоящего на рубеже грузинского и тюркского населения. В Прикаспийском крае адербейджанское наречие встречается близ Дербенда с наречием кумыков. Простота и доступность для изучения сделали адербейджанское наречие международным языком для всего восточного Закавказья. Каждый год оно делает новые захваты среди горцев Дагестана, влияя на туземные языки и вытесняя их мало помалу." Parishan (talk) 00:15, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

3. A source from 1897:

• A French anthropological study by H. George with measurement title stating: [1] "ADERBEIDJANI D'ÉRIVAN".

I have more, but I think this is enough to make a point. Parishan (talk) 00:15, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't seem to care about your sudden urge to prove me the existence of the Azerbaijani language in the 18th century, maybe some historians do, but I don't. How is Azerbaijani relevant to a Turkish/Persian fortress in Yerevan? Armenian is the language of the location, Russian and Persian are the languages of the empires that fought for the fortress. What is the relevance of the Azerbaijani here? Maybe just a POV-pushing of the Aliyev family myth that "Iravan was a gift to the Armenians and the Iravan khanate was Azerbaijani land, the Armenians were guests here."? --Երևանցի ^talk 00:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the reasons are sufficient to include Russian. JediXmaster (talk) 01:13, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Yerevanci, may I kindly remind you that your condition for including the Azeri name into the article was "giving you one neutral source from pre-1918 era that says that people in Erivan Khanate and later governorate spoke the Azerbaijani language", which is what I did? As for your follow-up question, if there are accounts of it as early as 1876, this cannot be called a "sudden urge". These are historical facts which some might be too biased to be aware of, which however does not yet mean they are not facts. I do not understand why it is still an issue to accept that the Muslim population of the Erivan Khanate, including its ruling elite, was ethnically Azeri. There is simply no source to prove the existence of any native Persian or Turkish speaking communities in what is now Armenia. Tadeusz Swietochowski refers to Erivan Khanate as an Azerbaijani state: "Thus began a half-century-long period of Azerbaijani independence, albeit in a condition of deep political fragmentation and internal warfare. Most of the principalities were organized as khanates, small replicas of the Persian monarchy, including Karabagh, Sheki, Ganja, Baku, Derbent, Kuba, Nakhichevan, Talysh, and Erivan in northern Azerbaijan". (Tadeusz Swietochowski. Russian Azerbaijan, 1905—1920: The Shaping of National Identity in a Muslim Community. Cambridge, UK, Cambridge University Press, 2004. ISBN 0-521-52245-5). I hope this will put an end to this ridiculous discussion. Parishan (talk) 01:20, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

And? Eastern Turkey was called Armenia once, aren't you aware of it? Parts of Turkey are called Kurdistan by many. Northern Iran is called Azerbaijan, isn't it? That does not mean that everything in those areas should include their Armenian, Kurdish and Azerbaijani names respectively. It's clear that current Azerbaijani government uses the fact that the Muslim people living in Yerevan and the surroundings spoke a Turkic dialect what is now called Azerbaijani to promote its propaganda. By the way, we should probably consider adding the Armenian name of the Maiden Tower because in 1886 28.3% of Baku's population was Armenian [2]. --Երևանցի ^talk 02:12, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware of the fact that Eastern Turkey was called Armenia once, which is why articles about almost every large town in that area contains the Armenian version of its name on Wikipedia. The difference between the Maiden Tower and the Erivan Fortress was that the fortress was located in an Azeri-majority locale and was used by Azeri-speaking khans. It was never an Armenian landmark. I am sorry, Yerevanci, but I am not going to have an ideological discussion with you over here. I have provided what you asked me for. Parishan (talk) 02:44, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

you gave three sources above from 1876 to 1897 which do call the language Azeri, does any source mention an "Azerbaijani language" in 1582, when the fortress was built? By the way, I don't recall Azerbaijani language being written in the Latin script in the 18-19th centuries. If the Azeri name will ever be added it should be in the script that was used at the time, not in 2013. --Երևանցի ^talk 03:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

You don't need a source from 1582. It suffices for the landmark to be relevant to the time when Azeris used it. Rendered in the Arabic script is possible, but unaccompanied by present-day spelling, the name is not very efficient, since the working script for this particular language now is Latin based. After all, we do use modern Turkish spellings for names of Ottoman sultans in articles. But I am not opposed to using both: (i.e., Azerbaijani: İrəvan qalası – ايروان قالاسى). Parishan (talk) 03:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

The Azerbaijani translation of the name adds no value to the article other then spreading Azerbaijani irredentism. No scholarly works cite it, nor does any major book or publication, nor is it a commonly used expression other then realm of modern Azerbaijani language and nationalist website9s)itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.127.253.45 (talk) 15:49, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The sources for the Azerbaijani name have been provided. It is no good for the anon IPs to pop up and remove it without any consensus. Grandmaster 23:16, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Name should be changed to Yerevan Fortress. It doesn't make any sense to name a place according to its "district majority" population's language, even if we assume for a moment that the district majority of Azerbaijanis in history could be established. Even today where cities have "district majorities", the places are called by the language of the country. Little Italy in NYC was never called Piccola Italia and neither the Armenian Quarter in Jerusalem is or ever was called Haykakan Daghamas.--Sataralynd (talk) 04:25, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

It's not "Erivan" because of Azeris. "Erivan" is not even what Azeris call it, they call it "Iravan". It's called "Erivan Fortress" because that was the name of the city during that period, see Yerevan. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 08:00, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Erivan is a Russo-Turkish name for the city. The Perso-Azeri name for it was Iravan. No one called the city Yerevan at the time the fortress was built. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 14:13, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Really, none of this is relevant for deciding the article title. Surely it would be whichever name is most used in current academic discourse. 88.108.93.115 (talk) 03:11, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Azerbaijani name

According to one source, the fortress was built by Turks in 1528. I proposed to add Turkish/Azerbaijani name of the fortress for the sake that the object being discussed was built during the Turk period of Yerevan. Turke of Yerevan and present-day Republic of Armenia were Oghuz, which they were the ancestors of the Azerbaijanis, then simply called Turk or Tatar (Caucasian Tatar). Mfikriansori (talk) 15:38, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

I reverted your edit because Az name is anachronistic and there wasn't Azerbaijani/Azeri designation at the time, also Azerbaijan never controlled it. Irrelevant to this article. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 08:59, 26 November 2022 (UTC)