Talk:Garegin Nzhdeh

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Untitled[edit]

Was Njdeh not involved in the collaboration of some Armenian Nationalists with Nazi Germany? What was his role in the raising of the Armenische Legion in WW II? Why is there no mention of these facts? --Hubertgui (talk) 16:09, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nzhdeh was indeed involved, however neither he nor his units participated in the Holocaust as the implication usually goes. Nzhdeh had left for Bulgaria at the time of Hitler's activity. He got news that Hitler was preparing to invade and massacre all "non-Aryans", and this included the 40,000 Armenians in Bulgaria. He immediately arranged to contact him, and manipulated the prominent Nazi racial theory to claim that Armenians were also "fellow Aryans", to save them and the Soviet POW's of Armenian origin from being murdered. After that, he and some other anti-Soviet Armenians thought that Hitler would attack Turkey, so they formed "volunteer" battalions to potentially fight against Turkey.
All of these accusations of Nzhdeh being a legitimate, murderous Nazi date back to the meeting of the CIS heads of state in Turkmenistan's capital city Ashgabat on October 11, 2019. There, the Azerbaijani dictator Ilham Aliyev accused Nzhdeh of all the relevant sins that would turn the world against him, from anti-Semitism to the creation of Wehrmacht battalions.
The reason why this narrative is pushed so hard by Azerbaijan is not because they detest association with Nazis. They have done it too. It's only because Nzhdeh (as mentioned in this article) organized the self-defense of Zangezur and prevented the Turco-Bolshevik tandem from annexing it to the Azerbaijani SSR as it happened with Artsakh/Karabagh and Nakhtchawan. They are still angry at him for foiling their expansionist schemes, so they need to demonize him at any cost.
In Israel's Yad Vashem, there is a list of all Nazis that were directly or indirectly connected with the extermination of Jews. It does not contain either his pseudonym "Nzhdeh" or his real name, which is Garegin Ter-Harutyunyan. What does that tell you? Աշոտ (talk) 22:43, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject class rating[edit]

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 11:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV[edit]

According to WP:SOURCE Articles should be based on reliable, third-party (independent), published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. but now the article refers to the Armenian Cause Encyclopedia published in Yerevan. So it violates the rule especially in the sections telling about conflicts between Armenia and Azerbaijan/Turkey. I think the wordings must be fixed. --Quantum666 (talk) 09:57, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

Reliable and third-party sources are provided. Kevorkmail (talk) 04:48, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Your third-party sources don't say "The movement towards the independence of the Mountainous Armenia helped the local Armenians to avoid the desteny of their compatriots in Baku and Shusha where they were massacred by the Tatars of Azerbaijan in 1905 and 1920 respectively." So the wordings must be fixed. --Quantum666 (talk) 09:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Citations[edit]

They present and support the idea of that the Armenians were survived from being massacred by teh Tatars Kevorkmail (talk) 10:03, 21 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They support only the idea that there were clashes in 1905 but don't say anything about "massacres" that possibly could happen. And please do not remove POV flag until our discussion is finished. --Quantum666 (talk) 10:22, 20 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Third opinion[edit]

WikiDao (talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.

Viewpoint by Quantum666
1. Armenian sources should not be used in the disputed parts of the article according to WP:SOURCE as they are not third-party (independent) sources
2. The "citation needed" template should be returned for this text "The movement towards the independence of the Mountainous Armenia helped the local Armenians to avoid the desteny of their compatriots in Baku and Shusha where they were massacred by the Tatars of Azerbaijan in 1905 and 1920 respectively" as the present sources tell about 1905 events and nothing about "salvation from massacres"
3. The NPOV flag should be returned until the discussion is finished. --Quantum666 (talk) 04:58, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Viewpoint by (name here)
....
Third opinion by WikiDao
Okay, thanks for the clarification, Quantumm666. Since Kevorkmail hasn't had a chance to respond, I'll just make a few comments about what I see here so far.
First of all, it was perhaps a bit uncivil for Kevorkmail to call your edits "vandalism." It seems clear you made them in good faith.
That said, the citations already given for the disputed text seem fine by me per WP:SECONDARY. I have not looked at those sources carefully myself at this point; are you sure they do not support the statement being made? If so, I'll take a closer look at them to see. Until then, my opinion is to leave the text as-is. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 22:59, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comment. Yes, I am sure about the sources. They write only about what happened before the moment described in the disputed text but not about what could possibly happen. And there are two more points I mentioned in my comment: about the flag and about non third-party sources. --Quantum666 (talk) 06:12, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for responding. I'd rather wait before opining further until Kevorkmail responds with his point of view (a third opinion does require, after all, two pre-existing opinions!;). If he continues making unresolved controversial edits without discussing the matter here, that would be a sign of disruptive editing. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 13:04, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think 4 days is enough to answer. He didn't even show his willingness to reply while actively editing other articles. I think there must be reasonable term for waiting. --Quantum666 (talk) 13:12, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. The problem I am having is that four sources are cited for the text in question. I can see how one of them, the 1905 New York Times article, probably shouldn't be used here to support a comment about something that didn't happen in 1921. The other sources I haven't seen, so I don't know myself whether or not they support the text as they should. So I can't really say whether it should be removed as unsourced speculation or not; that's one of the reasons I'd prefer to hear back from Kevorkmail before reaching a more conclusive opinion on this one. I'd say waiting about a week from when the 3O got requested and then cautiously and civilly editing the article as you see fit would probably be ok. If those efforts get reverted without discussion, the best way to deal with that should be further considered at that time. Hope this helps for now; I'll keep an eye on the page for a while! WikiDao ☯ (talk) 13:50, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I understood you. But in addition to the mentioned problem there are two more points I have already written about: removing POV flag and using non third-party sources in the article. What about them? --Quantum666 (talk) 14:36, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm not so sure I'd see it as an NPOV issue at this point as much as, say, a VERIFY issue. And per PSTS there's nothing really all that bad about tertiary sources... WikiDao ☯ (talk) 14:45, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They maybe tertiary but they are not third-party as they should be according to WP:SOURCE. --Quantum666 (talk) 14:56, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I put a primary-sources tag on the section. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 15:07, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WikiDao, I am talking about independence of the sources not about primary-secondary-tertiary sources. Armenian sources here are not independent when they are talking about Armnenia's conflicts with it's neighbours. --Quantum666 (talk) 15:11, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Q. "This section needs references that appear in reliable third-party publications. Primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject are generally not sufficient for a Wikipedia article. Please add more appropriate citations from reliable sources." You're unhappy with that? WikiDao ☯ (talk) 15:22, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. I didn't see that. The word "primary" misleaded me. :-) --Quantum666 (talk) 15:36, 2 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to WP:NPOV, WP:SOURCE, WP:OR, the third opinion and the administrator's decision I made some changes in the article. They include removing POVs and ORs and requests for sources. --Quantum666 (talk) 06:39, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per request. - GTBacchus(talk) 22:05, 16 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Garegin Njdeh → Garegin Nzhdeh – per WP:COMMONNAME

-- Takabeg (talk) 11:57, 9 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support In modern history the Armenian letter "ժ" (pronounced ž) is written as "zh" and not "j". --Yerevanci (talk) 21:35, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Armenian legion[edit]

According to Patrik von zur Mühlen, Nzhdeh proposed the formation of volunteer units, but rejected. His membership of the Armenian legion is dubious. Takabeg (talk) 04:28, 10 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What sources are you citing for this? Do you think SMERSH arrested him by mistake? --NR SHENER (talk) 21:47, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You think that the SMERSH arrested him because he collaborated with Nazi Germany and not because he was the most anti-Bolshevik Armenian to exist, over a decade before Hitler came to power? You have a very...romantic, to say the least, view of the USSR and its agencies.
All this talk of Nzhdeh's Nazism is absolute nonsense. Even the Jewish people themselves had never heard of Nzhdeh prior to October 11, 2019, when the Azerbaijani dictator Ilham Aliyev spoke about the man at a meeting of the CIS heads of state in Turkmenistan's capital city Ashgabat, accusing him of all sorts of sins, from anti-Semitism to the creation of Wehrmacht battalions...
Look: in Israel, there is a list of all Nazi criminals directly or indirectly connected with the extermination of Jews. This list is located in the Yad Vashem. It does not contain either his pseudonym Nzhdeh or his real name, Garegin Ter-Harutyunyan.
So...to rephrase your question: do you think Israel missed him by mistake? Աշոտ (talk) 08:02, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Republic of Mountainous Armenia[edit]

"A convinced anti-Bolshevik, he led the defense of Syunik against the rising Bolshevik movement, who declared Syunik as a self-governing region in December 1920."

The statement above is not clear to me: who declared Syunik as a self-governing region? The people defending Syunik or the Bolshevik movement? Any help appreciated. —capmo (talk) 02:17, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed --Oatitonimly (talk) 03:01, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I'm translating the article into Portuguese and was not sure if I had rendered this phrase accurately. —capmo (talk) 05:33, 15 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Point of view[edit]

@Armeniangigachad,

1. I checked the very fist provided source, The Armenians : from kings and priests to merchants and commissars by Panossian, and it does state that Nzhdeh Nzhdeh was eventually expelled from the ARD for his extreme and racist views

2.I also checked source about Turkey, Kars-Ardahan and Soviet Armenian Irredentism, it also does state Althught the Turkey was officially neutral during the war, the Soviets argued that the Turks actually aided the Nazi war... so it was indeed alleged claim.

I can see that you are new to the Wikipedia, I would highly recommend you to start with reading Wikipedia Policies and guidelines. Introduction to Wikipedia and Tea-House a friendly place where you can ask questions are also highly recommended. Please feel free to contact me if you will have questions. Thanks! A b r v a g l (PingMe) 09:44, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It should probably be said here that Nzhdeh's life has yet to be studied in much critical detail. There are a number of biographies on him published in Armenian, although most of those I think are on the level of hagiography (I can't say for sure, as I haven't read them). I would argue though that Walker's views are woefully outdated and Panossian's study does not at all attempt to engage him through the use of primary source documentation.
Regarding Turkey and Germany during World War II, I would agree that it would be wrong to characterize the relationship as an alliance, although both countries shared very close ties during the war (neutrality, after all, is a legal definition). Germany even tried to woo Turkey to the Axis Powers side (unsuccessfully, as it turned out) by repatriating the body of Talat Pasha and other such gestures.Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 14:03, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Problematic source[edit]

The source that's being used to substantiate the breathtaking claim being inserted in the lead is as ambiguous and vague as it comes. Leupold writes in his book that "Biographical material published by the Republican Party of Armenia suggests that the famous fedayee Garegin Nzhdeh, Andranik's brother-in arms 'killed 15,000 Azeris for a total loss of 28 Armenians, and cleansed of their former inhabitants 200 villages in the process of saving Zangezur as part of Armenia.'" His own source is not even given in the footnote (in fact, he only writes "An avenue, a large square and a nearby metro station in Yerevan as well as a village in the southern Syunik Province of Armenia are nan1ed after Garegin Nzhdeh"). All we know is that it's something (essentially a political pamphlet) put out by the Republican Party of Armenia, which has it own agenda to promote and lionize Nzhdeh, rather than a reliable primary or secondary source. Otherwise what is this "biographical material"? Under what title was it published under? Who was the author and what were his credentials? None of these details are provided and yet we're being asked to accept this information at face value. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:52, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The claim is also supported by Kiesling's publication Rediscovering Armenia on page 127:
… according to the 1995 biography published by the Republican Party of Armenia, killed 15,000 Azeris for a total loss of 28 Armenians, and cleansed of their former inhabitants 200 villages in the process of saving Zangezur as part of Armenia.
It seems that both sources are referencing a "biography" rather than a political pamphlet as you suspected, is that acceptable? – Olympian loquere 05:56, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Um, no. Kiesling writes travel books about Armenia. I'm not going to be citing a Baedeker guide to Budapest on what happened in Nazi-occupied Hungary during WWII anytime soon. We need works by actual historians or scholars who study this period for a living. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 11:33, 29 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure why you think this claim is "breathtaking", there are numerous historians that have attested to Nzhdeh's ethnic cleansing activities in Zangezur, for example:
  • For the Armenians, the operation [against Muslim villages in Zangezur] relieved five isolated Christian settlements and reopened the pass to Goghtan; for Nzhdeh, it inspired a resolve to expel Muslim partisans and villagers from the deep Barkushat-Geghvadzor valleys which cut across the heart of Zangezur … Meanwhile, Nzhdeh’s squads inflamed the Okhchichai and Geghvadzor vales … [Prime minister Khatisian couldn't make an excuse] for the campaign against Muslim villages around Shurnukh, southeast of Goris. With the name of Akulis as their battle cry, Nzhdeh’s partisans overran more than twenty settlements … regular army units had helped destroy nine villages on the first day of that offensive and that more than forty hamlets had been wiped out … – The Republic of Armenia, Volume 2, by Richard G. Hovannisian
  • Около 50 000 мусульман были изгнаны из своих деревень в Зангезурском уезде и бежали в соседние Джебраильский и Джеванширский уезды. Более 100 деревень подверглись полному разрушению, в результате этих набегов лишились жизни около 10 000. – Враг есть везде. Сталинизм на Кавказе, by Jörg Baberowski
These passages very clearly implicate Nzhdeh's ethnic cleansings in Zangezur and attest to the destruction of tens or up to a hundred settlements of various sizes. Can you still say that the claim that "15,000 Azeris were killed by him" is still "breathtaking"? – Olympian loquere 08:24, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is breathtaking regardless if whether the sources exist or not, but you need something to substantiate the numbers (and not draw conclusions from multiple sources). Hovannisian is a reliable source (I have a copy of that volume and he footnotes most of his statements, plus he is an expert in that field). I would be curious to know more about Baberowski's sources, but in any case the above two work much better here than Leupold's book. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 13:33, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, though nonetheless I think that information from the Hovannisian exercpts can be added to the article without specification of numbers. In any case, there's another source that provides germane numbers:
  • It was no more understandable than Armenia’s decision to declare Gargarin Nzhdeh a hero of its own Republic. Nzhdeh was a Nazi collaborator who, earlier in his career, oversaw paramilitary forces who killed over 10,000 ethnic Azerbaijanis. – Russias Interventions in Ethnic Conflicts The Case of Armenia and Azerbaijan, by James J. Coyle
If this source is acceptable, I'll add it to the article. – Olympian loquere 22:35, 30 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You can't cite a source that 1) only makes a passing reference to these events 2) doesn't cite any sources to back it up and 3) is not focused on the early 20th-century history of this region, but on "Russian interventions in ethnic conflicts." Again, I would suggest you examine Hovannisian and work off some of his sources to see what they have to say, or at the very least an author who is an actual expert in this field. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:45, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm afraid I have to disagree and don't think your criteria is reasonable in this case, I've provided 4 sources (5 if you count Baberovski; 6 with Black Garden by de Waal: The Armenians asserted their right to their homeland at the expense of these people. In 1918–1920, tens of thousands of Azerbaijanis were expelled from Zangezur … The Dashnak leader known as Njdeh had taken possession of Zangezur, driving out the last of its Azerbaijani population and effecting what one Armenian author euphemistically calls a “re-Armenianization” of the region.) that attest to the ethnic cleansing of Azeris in Zangezur by Nzhdeh. You mention "Russian interventions in ethnic conflicts" as if the title of the publication should somehow discredit its content—If you believe that it's not a reliable source, take it to RSN to prove it there. The bottomline is that there aren't any reasonable grounds to exclude the fact of Nzhdeh's ethnic cleansing which is explicitly supported by 5 sources. If you're still adamant, I'm happy to request a third opinion — Olympian loquere 12:48, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what fact it is that you're actually trying to insert. The alleged 15,000 dead, or Nzdheh's campaigns in southern Armenia? If it is the former, the evidence for it is slim. You have still failed to produce a reliable source to back up such numbers. If it is the latter, then I think we've achieved consensus, but I would only use Hovannisian for the moment, because, again, he is so far the only specialist in the field who has written on this period that has been cited here thus far. And again, I don't have any qualms with Coyle's work, but his is a throwaway remark that barely registers in the larger account that he seeks to discuss in his book. It's the equivalent of citing a study on the Soviet Union when its author makes a brief mention of Russia coming under attack by the Mongols in the medieval period, with a medievalist coming and saying that his characterization of the Mongols isn't entirely accurate. Nothing egregious, as the author's focus is on the Soviet Union, but we're not going to cite him now on Rus-Mongol relations. It's that simple. And just to make one thing clear, De Waal is piggybacking off the research of Hovannisian; he's never done any primary source research into the 1920s (he's a political analyst, not a historian) and his work is more relevant to his actual specialty, i.e., the late Soviet period and collapse. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:51, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your point, however, I don't believe Coyle's figure should be dismissed as it's highly relevant to the focus of his book (the Armenian–Azerbaijani conflict). To be clear, I agree that the "15,000" figure shouldn't be used until that "1995 biography" can be found and assessed for its reliability, however, I believe that I've supplied ample evidence to insert the following sentences based on the sources provided above:
Thoughout 1919–1921, Nzhdeh effected a "re-Armenianization" of Zangezur (present-day Syunik)[1][2][3] through the massacre of 10,000 Azerbaijanis[4][5] and expulsions of tens of thousands[1] (up to 40,000[6]–50,000[5]), particularly in the Barkushat–Geghvadzor valleys and southeast of Goris where nine villages and forty hamlets were "wiped out" in January 1920.[6] During the 1921 anti-Soviet revolt known as the Republic of Mountainous Armenia, Nzhdeh in taking control of Zangezur drove "out the last of its Azerbaijani population".[1]
Let me know what you think. – Olympian loquere 01:45, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No dice. The above formulation is the cobbling together of a number of disparate sources, some very speculative in nature. De Waal, as I've said, is not a specialist in early twentieth-century Russian/Caucasus history. His research relies heavily on Hovannisian and others, and even then sometimes goes beyond what they argue. Baberowski doesn't even mention Nzhdeh by name, so how do you infer that the campaigns were necessarily led by Nzhdeh? The others (Coyle, Zakharov), as I feel necessary to emphasize here, are not experts in the fields either (Again, Zakharov and his co-author do not provide sources). I am not slighting their credentials, but you're going to need to turn to authoritative authors, not just anyone who may cursorily refer to the events in Zangezur. The general idea is there, but I would suggest you re-work the above using Hovannisian, and we can move forward from there. Providing context to the Nzhdeh's campaigns is also absolutely necessary, so that readers understand that they're not just taking place in a vacuum. Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:54, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As we couldn't reach a consensus, I've requested a third opinion to advise regarding the use of sources to support the above proposed sentences. – Olympian loquere 14:25, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As no-one engaged the 3O request, I'm happy to just add the content we agreed on (per Hovannisian) and leave the latter content to be discussed at another time when there is more impetus. – Olympian loquere 03:17, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b c de Waal, Thomas (2003). Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan Through Peace and War. New York: New York University Press. pp. 80 & 129. ISBN 978-0814719459.
  2. ^ Chorbajian, Levon (1994). The Caucasian Knot: The History & Geopolitics of Nagorno-Karabagh. Patrick Donabédian, Claude Mutafian. London: Atlantic Highlands, NJ. p. 134. ISBN 1-85649-287-7. OCLC 31970952.
  3. ^ Zakharov, Nikolay (2017). Law, Ian (ed.). Post-Soviet Racisms. Leeds, UK: Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 105–106. ISBN 978-1-137-47692-0. OCLC 976083039.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)
  4. ^ Coyle, James J. (2021). Russia's Interventions in Ethnic Conflicts: The Case of Armenia and Azerbaijan. Cham: Springer International Publishing. p. 49. doi:10.1007/978-3-030-59573-9. ISBN 978-3-030-59572-2.
  5. ^ a b Baberovski, Yorg (2010). Враг есть везде. Сталинизм на Кавказе [The enemy is everywhere. Stalinism in the Caucasus] (in Russian). Moskva: Rossiyskaya politicheskaya entsiklopediya (ROSSPEN) Fond «Prezidentskiy tsentr B. N. Yeltsina». p. 164–165. ISBN 978-5-8243-1435-9.
  6. ^ a b Hovannisian, Richard G. (1982). The Republic of Armenia. Vol. 2. Berkeley: University of California Press. pp. 213 & 239. ISBN 0-520-04186-0.
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