Talk:Gothic fiction/Archive 1

Archive 1

Coleridge

Removed this from the main page since it is pretty unconnected to the rest.

The fine taste for mystery, fear and imagination is strictly connected with the English romantic period (Coleridge)

--Pinkunicorn 15:51, 25 February 2002

Jane Eyre

Does Jane Eyre fit in with Gothic novels? It would certainly seem to under this definition, and is a fairly well-known work. -- April — Preceding undated comment added 21:31, 13 July 2002

Jane Eyre is post-gothic/proto-feminist. Pokes some fun at the tradition at various points. Could be a decent addition to show how the genre was evolving in the 1820's. This needs some major work on expansion and clarification. I'm very busy for the next few days but I'll take a crack at it sometime next week. If anyone wants a go, then the history of the genre needs to be expanded (no mention is made of the impact the Monk had on making the genre unfashionable), mention made of Schauromane (sp?) and 'pulp gothic' of the penny dreadful variety, and more extensive details of the genres central cliches: We have the gothic villain and byronic hero. What about the imperilled, virginal female who invariably has to be rescued from the vile clutches of the former by the latter? The conventions and imagery needs more work too. This reads like a GCSE facts sheet. --KharBevNor 18:53, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Is the innocent delicate little flower who has to be rescued unique to the gothic horrer genre? It would seem to atleast go back to Homer. Anyway, looking forward to your additions next week. Grice 09:55, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Not unique, but certainly a central aspect of the Gothic romances (Radcliffe, Maturin, and Lewis particularly), and well worth commenting on. A discussion on the standard Gothic tropes (ala Eve Sedgwick's The Coherence of Gothic Conventions) is sorely needed in this article - maybe I'll try to add something later on! Ziggurat 00:02, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Copyediting

This page could use some copyediting for basic grammar. In the mood anyone??? NuclearWinner 23:31, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

citation

This article was referenced in a discussion on BBC Radio 5 Live on 28 October 2005. Thryduulf 11:45, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Internationalisation needed

This page desperately needs some mention of the non-English-language Gothics, particularly the German writers who could be said to have had a big influence on the genre. Ziggurat 20:27, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

De Sade?

Are (some of) the writings of the Marquis de Sade typically classified as gothic? I googled for de Sade and gothic and found [1], [2] and [3], but I don't know how mainstream these opinions are. AxelBoldt 01:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

De Sade was certainly working from the Gothic tradition and was known to be influenced by Lewis and Radcliffe. His novels are also full of the typical gothic tropes: castles, forests, dungeons, torture chambers, monasteries, churches, demonic rituals, etc. Lautreamont's Les Chants de Maldoror might deserve a mention too, being heavily influenced by Melmoth and Manfred, although I suppose it belongs more to the Symbolist or decadent movement alongside Baudelaire, Mallarmé, and Rimbaud. However I wonder if any of those guys deserve some mention.--Vlad the Impaler (talk) 08:15, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

New WikiGnome

Hello everyone! I am a new user, and as my first Wikiventure, I just finished a WikiGnome job on this article. Please let me know what you think. ..........THANK YOU... Z Wylld 21:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Good job! I hope you stay around. We really need good copy editors. Cheers, AxelBoldt 04:15, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Wuthering Heights...Heathcliff, hero, or villain

• so....what do you guys think, was heathcliff a villain, or just a man desperatly in love? MysteriousStranger 01:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds suspiciously like a Junior High essay question :-) I don't believe it's relevant for a discussion of the Gothic novel. Ziggurat 03:41, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Kids don't read Wuthering Heights in junior high school! It's WAY too complex in regards to plot and language for kids their age to even remotely understand. Even many college students today have a hard time with the book! --205.188.116.66 06:32, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Even though the subject is irrelevant to this article page, I will say, long after the fact, that that is a generalized statement that is unfair to many precocious junior high readers. "Kids their age", "remotely understand"? How insulting! BTW, I believe Heathcliff would be considered a tragic hero. Good intentions, but fatally flawed and unhappy ultimately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PatienceGoodlove (talk • contribs) 19:00, 17 August 2011

Heathcliffe in the book is given the impression og a villain- BUt then again hemay have been a hero under all of the Hostility — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomtob1 (talk • contribs) 09:00, 7 July 2008

Southern gothic literature

Maybe references should be made in the section on modern gothic literature to Southern Gothic literature, which already has its own page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.125.5.83 (talk • contribs) 16:34, 18 April 2006

Sacrifice

I was just wondering, isn't self-sacrifice of the main character to insure everyone else lives "happily ever after" one of the main themes in a gothic novel? It appears to be that way in Dracula, Jekyll and Hyde, Frankenstein and The Phantom of the Opera. --Lienroos 10:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Gothic Novel or Gothic Romance?

The whole gist of this article worries me.....viz the very term 'Gothic Novel'. As far as I'm aware the Early Gothics by such as Walpole, Radcliffe and Monk Lewis were designated 'Romances' in contradistinction to the realistic 'Novels' of Richardson, Fielding, Austen etc. The initial inspiration of Gothic was Medieval Romance. Calling these works 'novels' in the very title of the article bespeaks literary sloppiness of the first order...Colin4C 18:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Gothic Literature

I have renamed this article 'Gothic Literature' as I feel that the term 'Gothic Novel' is a bit of an oxymoron. Early Gothic works were considered to be 'romances' rather than novels and a lot of the the later Gothic literature - by Poe etc - is in the form of short stories....Colin4C 20:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure you know what an oxymoron is? By 'Gothic Literature' you also imply poetry, which is not the purpose of the article at all. It should remain Gothic Novel --Trencacloscas 09:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

According to my dictionary an oxymoron is 'an epigrammatic effect, by which contradictory terms are used in conjunction'. What I mean, and I can give you the references if you like, is that originally 'the novel' and 'the Gothic romance' were held to be contrasted forms of literature. Walpole's seminal work harked back to the medieval romances and Arabian Nights stuff (plus the non-novelist Shakespeare who was a big influence on Walpole and Radcliffe etc) which had been the popular reading matter before the rise of the realistic novels of Richardson, Fielding etc. Also it seemed strange to have an article called 'The Gothic Novel' which then goes on to mention the short stories of Edgar Allen Poe etc. If we want to include Poe in a discussion of the Gothic (and it would be very odd to leave him out - like omitting Jesus from Christianity) I think we should have an alternative title to 'Gothic novel' As for Gothic poetry, perhaps we should include it? 'Lenore', 'Christabel' and 'La Belle Dame Sans Merci' were a big influence on the genre. The article on 'Gothic Romance' in 'The Penguin Encycopedia of Horror and the Supernatural', includes poetry (interestingly there is no entry for 'Gothic Novel' in this encyclopedia). And if you don't want poetry included, maybe 'Gothic Fiction' would be a better title, or 'Gothic Romances'? Colin4C 10:20, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

At any rate, the second letter should be decapitalized, per our naming conventions. The move is abstructed, you should ask an admin to move it. On I side note, I think Gothic fiction is a better title for this article, personally.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I would be quite happy with Gothic fiction. What does everybody else think? Colin4C 17:40, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Gothic fiction sounds fine to me, too. Ziggurat 22:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

OK! I've contacted an administrator to change it to Gothic fiction (cos it won't do it for me). Colin4C 08:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Page has been moved. Let me know if there's anything else I can do. AmiDaniel (talk) 20:37, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Ami.....Colin4C 08:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Please Explain....

Maybe somebody could explain these latest additions to the article?:

'[Important ideas concerning and influencing the Gothic include]...British fear that the ongoing revolutionary uprises, represented both by the American Independence (1776) and the French Revolution (1789), would cross the Channel.'

I see no evidence that fear of 'revolutionary uprises' crossing the channel (and Atlantic?) influenced the Gothic. But if so - in what way?Colin4C 17:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

So you are obviously not aware of three important books: The Pursuits of Literature (1776) (T.J. Matthias) and Reflections on the Revolution in France(1790) (E.Burke), followed by Thomas Paine famous reply Rights of Man (1791). Not to mention Sade's famous preface Reflections on the Novel in which he states the gothic is the inevitable product of the revolutionary shock with which the whole of Europe resounded. His opinion (same as Matthias) is still widely accepted among scholars. Paine will give you the Atlantic connection. In these books you will find the evidences you are looking for. Colin, I meant to improve the page with these contributions, I studied the subject in Norwich with one of the great names in Gothic Studies and I honestly believe there is no way you can write anything good about gothic fiction overlooking these questions.Dserravalle 20:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Sade's opinions do not necessarily translate into 'British fear' of 'ongoing revolutionary uprises' (by which - I guess - you mean 'uprisings'). Maybe you could give us an example of a Gothic tale which reflects such fear? Surely the fear manifested in Gothic fiction is the exact opposite. It is middle-class fear of the Old Regime of authoritarian aristocrats who live in Old castles with Old Bastille-like dungeons. From Walpole's Manfred to Radcliffe's Montoni to Stoker's Count Dracula it is satanic malevolent aristocrats who are the villains....not revolutionaries...The paradox of Gothic is that despite its castles and gloom it manifests progressive sentiments vis-a-vis the oppressive apparatus of the feudal past. The feudal past is the nightmare from which its heroes and heroines are trying to escape... Radcliffe was a liberal, Lewis had progressive sentiments, the Romantic poets who contributed to the Gothic genre (initially at least) sympathised with the ideals of the French revolution. Colin4C 09:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

How about Matthias and Burke's opinion? The gothic movement is not the monolithic tradition you are claiming it to be, from Walpole to Radcliffe, (see: James Watt. Contesting the Gothic, Fiction, Genre and Cultural Conflict 1764-1832, Cambridge UP, 1999), it was in fact a very turbulent and ambivalent period. It is unfair to look at it ad posteriori and fall into labels. At the time, Gothic fiction was a focus of various cross-currents: English antiquarianism, Whig dilettantism, German sturm und drang, Jacobinism, Occultism and radical secret societies, conservative English nationalism, anti-Catholicism, feudal nostalgia, Romantic diabolism, Godwinianism (see: Victor Sage, Horror Fiction in the Protestant Tradition). I completely understand that you have to simplify the information in the article in the name of Didactism, but do not do it naively, literary criticism has already established the gothic fiction as a way of representing the social and political contexts which emerged in the late 18th century.

You are right to mention the refusal of the aristocracy, William Godwin (Caleb Williams, St. Leon), Mary Wollstonecraft (A vindication of the Rights of Women)and Paine, our Atlantic connection, were the main voices for that. But not Radcliffe, who conformed to the bourgeois taste and to the monarquic social order which kept the king in the throne of England (she was deeply inspired by Burke's ideals, both aesthetically and politically). Lewis was a bit of a dandy, a son of the aristocracy spending his dad's fortune, not progressive. Good job you brought up the theme of the villain, which is ultimately the theme of otherness, as you know, these characters are frequently represented as physically strong and dark, they had piercing eyes and expressed contempt (a vital scorn of all) and gloom (a thing of dark imaginings). Their behaviour is unpredictable, moodily taciturn and violently explosive by turns. Vathek, for example, possesses a pleasing and majestic figure yet, when enraged, one of his eyes became so terrible that no person could bear to behold it. Ambrosio inspired universal awe, and few could sustain the glance of his eye, at once fiery and penetrating. Whilst Melmoth's face is cold,stony and rigid. Most importantly, as implied in the examples above (the examples you asked), all these characters are, in the first place, cursed by a rebellious impulse to test and transgress human social and ethical constrains. Do not take the vilains aristocratic or monastic origins at face value. It is this consistent and fatal over-reaching which constitutes the core ambivalence of their figures, both violent, threatening and often demoniac (signalled by the eyes, for example). For these reasons these characters are the figures intrinsic to the social critique of a number of texts since, as Fred Botting points out, the villain is rarely the cause of evil himself, but rather he "invites respect and understanding" since "real evil is identified among embodiements of tyrany, corruption and prejudice, identified with ... institutions of power manifested in government hierarquies, social norms and religious superstitions"(Gothic, 1996). Botting is talking Revolution here, against the feudal past, as you said. The gothic villain is the revolutionary, a temporary celebration (albeit a complicated and ambivalent one) of a self-destructive maverick. Now, Schiller's villain Rinaldo Rinaldi, Zchokke's novel Abällino, der grosse bandit and Lewis' The Bravo of Venice propose the villain is actually the bourgeoisie. That's how paradoxical and ambivalent it can get. Dserravalle 21:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC).

You are becoming a lot more coherent and cogent in your arguments Dserravalle! What you have written above is a lot better than your somewhat slapdash earlier edits to the article. I would agree with the nuanced understanding of the Gothic you express and agree that there was an antiquarian aspect to the Gothic manifested from the very start - with Walpole. It is worth noting however that the latter author wrote 'Otranto' before both American and French Revolutions. Also Radcliffe, though not an out-an-out radical in the mould of Wollstonecraft WAS married to a liberal editor (William Radcliffe) of a liberal journal which (initially) supported the French revolution and was anti-Burkean (see Miles's introduction to the Penguin edition of 'The Italian' in which he states that in her youth, when she wrote the Gothic novels she is famous for, 'she was immersed in the politics of rational dissent'). Her work was indeed criticised by the 'Anti-Jacobin Review'...

However, at the risk of making your point for you I find that Karl Grosse's 'Horrid Mysteries' (one of the 'Northanger Seven') was anti-Jacobin. Though as Grosse was German I don't know whether you would class it as Gothic...Colin4C 22:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I will insist on the point that gothic fiction is not homogeneous at all. Walpole’s TCO has obviously nothing of revolutionary and the reason is not just because it was written before the Revolutions. TCOis the work of a posh dilettante, but, above all, it is a Comedy (see his preface to the second edition). Walpole did not want to be taken seriously with this book and that is why he first hid under a pseudonym. His Manfred is a buffoon and the importance of this novel is historical, it does not even help the serious points you want to make in the article. There is a fine line between Horror and Comedy, how many times have you laughed in a horror movie? (See: Jack Morgan. The Biology of Horror: Gothic Literature and Film. Illinois: Southern Illinois University Press, 2002).

I agree with your point that gothic fiction is not homogeneous. What I find hard to understand is your immediately contradicting yourself by giving a 'monolithic' interpretation of 'Otranto'...Colin4C 11:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said, this is the author's opinion (take a look at his preface to the second edition).Dserravalle 21:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC).

About Ann Radcliffe political orientations, her husband might have flirted with the French revolutionaries, but that does not mean she did. William Radcliffe’s opinions do not necessarily translate into hers. Ann Radcliffe’s novels ended up postulating a ‘correctness of sentiment’ and supporting a set of predictable ideals amidst an uproar of new ones. Her option for sentimentality and rationality were much valued by traditional parties of English society at the time. According to Maggie Kilgour, Radcliffe was quite conservative in her views and surely not a writer who questioned the established order, more than reaffirming it. (See: Maggie Kilgour. The Rise of the Gothic Novel. McGill University. London: Routledge, 1995). Radcliffe made 400 pounds with Udolpho and 600 quid with The Italian, she was something of a J.K. Rowling of her time. By the end of her stories she would have conveyed a message of bourgeois moral, value and domesticity, according to the 18th century historical understanding. Now I am not a big fan of biographies but Rictor Norton denies Kilgour’s assertions. He associates Radcliffe to an Evangelical dissent and proposes the republican Joseph Priestly as the originator of her ideas of the sublime instead of the ‘conservative’ Edmund Burke. I tend to agree with Maggie Kilgour’s position. I also see complexities in the personality of the Irishman, Edmund Burke to regard him a typical conservative, as voting in favour of India in the Parliament. (see: Rictor Norton. Mistress of Udolpho: The Life of Ann Radcliffe. London: Leicester UP, 1999)

Just to point out that in the aristocratic 18th century it was the 'bourgeois' who were the radicals. In this respect the lady scribblers of Gothic romances and French revolutionaries were of the same social class...For true 'church and king' Toryism look rather at the ultra conservative Jane Austen. Colin4C 11:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we should say that some bourgeois sympathised with the French ideals (Godwin, Wollstonecraft), while others sold out (William Radcliffe?) and thought to be a better deal to allign themselves with the aristocracy.Dserravalle 21:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC).

My final word about the sure connections between the Gothic fiction and Revolution I will leave to the scholars:

“Uncertainties about nature of power, law, society, family and sexuality dominated Gothic Fiction. They are linked to wider threats of disintegration manifested forcefully in political revolution. The decade of the French Revolution was also the period when the Gothic novel was most popular” (Fred Botting. Gothic. London, Routledge, 1996. p.5)

“… it is important to register that terror had, and continues to have, direct connections with the social political realm. It is, of course, no accident that the roots of Gothic fiction in a time of European revolution, one of those manifestations was the French ‘reign of terror’, established ‘terror’ as a term that you could look outward as well as inward…” (David Punter. “Terror”. IN: The handbook to Gothic Literature. NY: NYU, 1998. p. 235). … my italics, this is so up-to-date, so reflects current times ….

Victor Sage, this guy knows the score: “Locked in our distant modern view, the genre [irony, he does not believe it is a genre] looks all too unified, but the fiction market of the 1790s was polarised by a range of contradictory social and political factors …. For writers like Clara Reeve, the Gothick motifs, drawn from the age of chivalry, could used to redress the leveling tendencies that followed in the wake of the French revolution… . In 1800 the Marquis de Sade revealed an equally political interest in the gothick novel, reading ann Radcliffe and Lewis as a partially unconscious response to the upheavals that had recently shaken Europe. (see: Victor Sage. The Gothick Novel. Mcmillan, 1990. p. 13). Dserravalle 10:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC).

If Sage was so clever he should have realised that Clara Reeve wrote 'The Old English Baron' 12 years before the French Revolution broke out. However I have no trouble with the idea that certain Gothic writers responded to the French Revolution, it is the nature of that response which is the question....The designation of them as 'terror novelists' or as belonging to the 'terrorist' school is obviously an allusion to the French 'Terror', but what this metaphor tells us about their politics I don't know....Colin4C 11:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I am sure he knows that. Sage only is exemplifying how some gothic motifs (castle, mountain, abyss, knight,etc) were revisited later, used to redress the leveling tendencies that followed in the wake of the French revolution. I reckon the answer to your reflection is in my refused addition.Dserravalle 21:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC).

'All in all, despite the great literary exchanges that went on in the late 17th and early 18th century, we should not call these Continental manifestations "gothic", as they reflect questions which belong to societies other than the English. The consequences of using the term "gothic" so widely is to confer the English gothic characteristics that are not originally there (blunt violence and horror, for example)and attributing these continental novels an English nomenclature which is unrelated to the content of the texts (e.g. the French fantastique may be about bodily transmutations, which reflects in the literature of Kafka and is unprecedented in the English tradition). By encompassing distinct literary traditions under the name of "gothic", we would be unnecessarily simplifying a complex literary era.'

This bit of barely comprehensible mangled syntax doesn't make a lot of sense to me - as it states in the article that the continental examples were called 'roman noir' or 'schauerroman', not 'gothic'. Plus the late 17th and early 18th century is before our period. Plus 'blunt violence and horror' are hardly adequate as a characterisation of the English Gothic. And what's all that stuff about the 'French fantastique' and Kafka...?Colin4C 17:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you could point out the mangled bits. You say "the continental examples were called 'roman noir' or 'schauerroman', not 'gothic'" (sic) but it is not just a matter of names. This is unnecessarily simplifying the question.Roman noir and Schauerroman belong to a different tradition, they are literary products of a different society, they are not continental examples of the English gothic (another Angst underpins them). What I meant to say there is, although there are manifold correciprocal relations between the gothic novel and the dark European manifestations, the term Gotischer Roman is not commonly accepted among German scholars, (see Hans Ulrich-Mohr text in the Handbook to gothic literature, NYUP, 1998) sturm und drang is more suitable. And also the roman noir is completely different from gothic. I will give you the centuries, I meant 18th and 19th. Next point, I believe you misread my text, I say horror and blunt violence are NOT a characteristic of the English gothic, by the way, Sade is NOT gothic, as it is stated in the text, this statement seriously needs quoting. The horrors presented in his work make all the English gothic look like cautionary tales. And since we are discussing the continental tradition, have you ever read Jaques Cazzotte? Le Diable Amoureaux (1774)? When you do you will immediately see the connection with Gregor Samsa. Dserravalle 20:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC).

The existence or not of a German Gothic is surely tangential to the article. If it didn't exist and nobody is suggesting it did exist, why mention it at all? The article states:

'At about the same time, parallel Romantic literary movements developed in continental Europe: the roman noir ("black novel") in France and the Schauerroman ("shudder novel") in Germany.'

The Roman noir and the Schauerroman are characterised as 'parallel Romantic literary movements', not as Gothic! You thus seem to be tilting at a straw man you have yourself erected...and have evidentally not read the article closely.....Colin4C 17:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Colin, this sentence is fine, but then it says in the article that Sade is gothic, doesn't it? (quote?)If you don't want to discuss Germany, schauerroman, gotischer roman, Sade ... why opening this section then? Sorry, but this part very poorly written, the article has to be clearer, by stating that gothic is a term for literature written in English only. Moreover, there is a common, gloomy zeitgeist among the countries in the period, however, each society has a different literary tradition resulting in distinct meanings for the horrors. Dserravalle 21:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC).

He [Sade]linked the gothic fear/anxiety to the ongoing to the revolutionary uprises across the channel.'

Another bit of mangled chain-of-conciousness written without due care or attention to grammar and syntax Colin4C 13:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is a "to the" that I missed while rewording the text, but that does not mean the information is wrong. Some editing would have done the job. I write this to you kindly and in good faith, I don't mean to interfere in the page you took for yourself and which you are doing a fairly good job with. Since you feel like that I will not edit the page anymore, but please take the time to check the things I mentioned, they are useful information for someone outside the literary field who likes to study the gothic, as you seem to be, best,Dserravalle 20:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC).

My feelings have nothing to do with the matter. I just wish you would pay more care and attention to grammar and syntax and comprehensibility. There is some sense in what you say...but it is a bit hard to disentangle...For instance (above) Sade was on the same side of the channel as 'the revolutionary uprises'.....These are only 'across the channel' if you are in England...which he wasn't...It is all relative.....Colin4C 11:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I accept the observation about the channel and the linguistic criticism (uprisings), I grew up polylingual but obviously not in equal shares (as I realise every now and then). You missed an S in consciousness up there and there is another typo evidentaly in the previous part. Syntax is a matter of following a thread of thought, as stream of consciousness has proved.Best, as ever. Dserravalle 21:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC).

A map for improvements

Can I just butt in here and say that I love this discussion! The article on gothic fiction has needed some proper improvement for ages now, and I'm glad to see two knowledgeable people enter the discourse. Could I suggest that you put together a list of areas that you feel the current article is deficient in or does not explain completely, and then we could work on each section in turn? Something along the lines of

• Origins
  • Political influences
  • Literary influences
• Major themes
• Legacy

...etc. A section on the best known literary criticism in this area would be very useful (I'm thinking Botting without a doubt; Victor Sage and David Punter maybe; I have a soft spot for Eve Sedgewick's The coherence of Gothic conventions and tangentially The Madwoman in the Attic) too. Ziggurat 23:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, a lit crit section at the end would be a great idea, showing the history of academic research into the Gothic genre citing Birkhead, Summers, Varma, Punter etc etc. And a mention of the important notion of the 'Female Gothic' would be useful...
• And I was thinking of adding a section on 'urban gothic', dealing with the mid-Victorian 'Mysteries of London/Paris/etc' genre by such as Reynolds, Sue, Lippard etc - mentioning Dickens in this context as well
• Also: the Gothic Parody and Romantic sections could be expanded, and Hawthorne given a mention. And somebody could write an article, elsewhere, on Le Fanu's 'Uncle Silas' - at the moment the link here leads nowhere.....
• It might also be worth writing a separate article for the 'Northanger Horrid Novels'.
• I notice that the 'Post Victorian' section here starts in the Late Victorian era, which is odd...
• More generally I have tried to pick up on the Gothic themes (Anti-Catholicism, villains, castles, persecuted maidens etc) and continuing influence of the pioneer writers of the genre (Walpole and Radcliffe etc), mentioned in the introductory sections, throughout the body of the article, to give it some coherence...Colin4C 09:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Enjoying the discussions here! Under “7 Precursors” what does everyone think of putting in a "7.5" for "political influences" on English Gothic? 7.5 Political influences

• • The birth of the Gothic was also probably influenced by political upheaval beginning with the English Civil War and culminating in a Jacobite rebellion (1745) more recent to the first Gothic Novel (1764). A collective political memory and any deep cultural fears associated with it likely contributed to early Gothic villain characters as literary representatives of defeated Tory barons or Royalists "rising" from their political graves in the pages of the early Gothic to terrorize the bourgeois reader of the late eighteenth century England.** FXONeill (talk) 15:10, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

References

Gothic Music?

The article says that gothic had little influence on classical music and then jumps to rock and roll. What about "Night on Bald Mountain" or "The Sourcerer's Apprentice" among others?Cliforeman 13:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Night on Bald Mountain (one of my favourites!) is Russian, so it's unlikely that it was influenced by the English Gothic tradition. Ziggurat 13:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not a music expert but the 'Penguin Encyclopedia of Horror and the Supernatural' lists lots of Gothic Horror inspired classical music and (especially) opera. But maybe it needs a separate article. Another thing which needs dealing with, either in this article or another, is Gothic Poetry...Colin4C 18:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The Terror...

Dserravalle - I have incorporated some of your suggestions and quotes (above) regarding the influence of the French Revolution and the thoughts of the Marquis de Sade into the article. What do you think? Colin4C 08:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Great, thanks. I am glad we see some points eye to eye now. Best, as ever, Dserravalle 11:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC).G Gothic music,I am very familiar with,we can start classical from Mozart's Requiem to Beethoven's many works like "Moonlight Sonata" to 1980's mother of Goth music Siouxsie and the Banshees,The Cure,Depeche Mode,How about the Goth anthem "Everyday is Halloween" Ministry,Sisters of Mercy,Bauhaus,Shouldn't there be a link to Gothic Music?Really?Black Sabbath may be considered the first Gothic Music but many Goths like myself would NOT see it that way MissOOhna 4:44, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Elizabeth Gaskell

Does anyone else think that Gaskell's gothic fiction should be included? I am thinking in particular of 'The Poor Claire','The Doom of the Griffiths','Lois the Witch' and "The Grey Woman'. All the stories employ the common gothic theme of ancestral sins cursing future generations,or the fear that they will.Natalieduerinckx 15:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Modern Gothic

Selene

I'm sure that the modern gothic should be separated from post-victorian gothic, 'coz its inspired by goth subculture and role-play games (such as Vampire: The Dark Ages and Vampire: The Masquerade). So modern gothic fiction is not a kind of a horror fiction, just 'coz main characters in modern gothic fiction are not preys, but very often they are supernatural beings, like Selene. By the same reason the Gothic Movies also should be separated from Horror Movies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.200.134.65 (talk • contribs) 03:30, 7 September 2006

Anti-Catholic

Many of goths are anti-Catholic, but that says more about western culture in general than goth's specifically; my favorite "gothic" DJ (Templar) *is* Catholic, I am a huge defender of the Catholic Church, and my roommate who has a black draped altar in his bedroom/dungeon was just talking yesterday about planting a tree at the local Catholic Church. So if goths are anti-Catholic, what am I, pray tell? - Thomas - http://www.myspace.com/duplicitousangel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.177.101.192 (talk • contribs) 19:55, 12 December 2006

Disclaimer: I'm no literary expert, but this is how I understand it

This is the article on gothic fiction; it is about the characteristics about gothic fiction and not a number of other things that may be labeled "gothic." Furthermore, the article isn't quite clear on this but it defines "gothic fiction" as the writing from the late 18th and early 19th century. You should keep in mind that this was primarily British, and at the time the presence of a Catholic church was almost non-existent to most of the authors. To many of these writers the Catholic church was an exotic religion that went into the same category as epic landscapes and stormy, dark castles - they used these things to get the right "gothic atmosphere". I'm sure there was also a political motivation in some of it, but I think a lot of it is sort of similar to the ridiculous travelogues about cannibalistic jungle inhabitants in Africa, the mysterious desert people of Arabia, etc.RadioYeti 19:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Supposed Victorian Gothic Qualities

I removed this recent addition from the text as both unsourced and redundant: i.e. I don't think Victorian Gothic qualities are any different from the general Gothic qualities mentioned in the intro. What do people here think? Should this text be removed or stay? Does it add anything useful to the article?:

[edit] List of Victorian Gothic qualities

Night

Big places, often empty

Cold temperature

Dark colours: red, mahogany, black, purple

Noises suggest eerie tone

Grand architecture/big furniture

Sense of foreboding

Time adds to tension (either short or long)

The sense of the mysterious

Isolation

Colin4C 20:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

introduction

I rewrote the introduction, but it still doesn't say quite what I think it should. I'm trying to get in the idea of Gothic fiction being an outgrowth of novels that display a certain pre-Romantic "sensibility", where increased attention is paid to the emotional reactions of the characters. I guess the musical equivalent would be Sturm und Drang. Could someone please help with this? Thanks. --Kyoko 19:45, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The article needs a better summary at the top and a section for the characteristics of Gothic Fiction in general. It doesn't cover the actual features of the subject as a whole very well, and is confusing. I know a lot of English students will be looking at this page, and It really never gives them a good description of what Gothic Horror actually IS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.159.105.22 (talk) 23:22, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Robert Bloch

Re: this extract from the article:

Lovecraft's protégé, Robert Bloch, penned the gothic horror classic, Psycho, which drew on the classic interests of the genre.

Do people here think that 'Psycho' can be described as classic Gothic? Colin4C 16:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Walpole's Castle of Otranto

According to The Cambridge Companion to Gothic Fiction, Walpole's famous novel was subtitled simply "A Story" in its first edition. The second - which also acknowledged Walpole as the author - was subtitled "A Gothic Story" (Clery 21). Not, as it says in this article, "A romance". What is the source for that statement? 83.249.83.220 22:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)Anko

new record in good luck last nite 5 mum — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.195.253.25 (talk) 00:07, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Faust

Is Faust a Gothic fiction?--Dojarca 14:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Penny blood/Penny dreadful

Hi, more needs to be said, I feel with regard to the Penny Blood and Penny Dreadful in the section on Victorian Gothic (the distinction itself might be worth explaining: critics tend to agree that the former best describes Edward Lloyd and co's Salisbury Square horror serials, whilst the term 'Dreadful' is more relevant to later ephemeral fictions, usually produced for a juvenile audience and carrying on up until the tunr of the century). The article appeared merely disparaging and slightly myopic in its dismissal of these whislt they actually represent an important and emergent area of scholarship and modern readerly interest (various new editions being published by specialist presses including Valancourt and Zittaw). I've poked the article slightly to redress the ommission but it might want some smoothing by someone with more wiki-time on their hands. - Perhaps mention Reynolds etc in relation to Dickens further down and / or nod towards the relationship between working class Gothic serial fiction in the Penny Blood and middle class serial gothic in the sensation novel (Braddon, Reade, Collins, etc). It's one that contemporary reviewers were quick to disparagingly observe and seems worthy of inclusion here. Someone wanted something on Urban Gothic too, a topic that could easily be incorporated into this discussion (Mighall's consideration of Reynold's Mysteries might help here).

I'd hack away myself but, oh so ironically, I've PhD research on ye olde Gothic to be pursuing. Plus I'd rather not butcher an article that others have clearly worked hard on and made a generally impressive job of.

Also edited the mention of Poe... let's not resort to hyperbole :-) ---Fluffy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.165.3 (talk) 10:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Also: no mention of Scott, Edgeworth and the historical romance? - Something might be added to the romantic section here: not only did these authors adapt and gesture towards Gothic conventions, but the emphasis on historical and cultural veracity that they introduced certainly had an important effect on the tradition - superceding its more clunky history and geography. Just a thought, but worth including if you're serious about filling out the article. 86.152.165.3 10:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)Fluffy

Horror and Terror

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Horror and terror Colin4C (talk) 09:10, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Gothic Fiction, Byronic Hero

This should be obvious, but Ann Radcliffe's villain did not develop into the Byronic hero. The Byronic hero came from Byron, whose life was mad enough to warrant its own character. Radcliffe's villain may have influenced it's development, but Byron was, by his very nature, as gothic as goths come.

Byromaniac and Wilde Childe —Preceding unsigned comment added by Countess of Moldovia (talk • contribs) 17:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Moved link in first sentence

Hello, just to say I moved the link in the first sentence ('Gothic fiction is an important genre of literature that combines elements of both horror and romance') to direct to the genre romance (as I imagine it was suppossed to), rather than to romance novels, as it would surely be medieval romances that influenced gothic fiction. Hope that's Ok, and that I did everything right. Amphy (talk) 01:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Gothick

Someone disputes that reference be made to in the article to the "Gothick" spelling, on the grounds that its occurence is too rare. This is disputable in itself, and manifestly wrong with reference to Gothick Revival architecture, as its scholarly article makes clear. And of course gothic literature is linked with architecture, beginning with Walpole. Straw Cat (talk) 18:23, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Though Google references to 'Gothick' are more numerous, I disputed its use here because 'Gothick fiction' only gains 17 hits. Philip Cross (talk) 20:03, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Difference between Gothic fiction and Gothic Romanticism?

What is the difference between Gothic fiction and Gothic Romanticism? Can theese two articles be merged? Åsa L (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

There is no difference. Gothic fiction = Horror + Romance = Gothic horror. I think therefore the articles should be merged. Colin4C (talk) 17:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Citation template

I just added this since I was having trouble finding which pieces of info belonged to each individual source... Volpeculus sagacis (talk) 07:12, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

}} ...Still needs a lot of work. Volpeculus sagacis (talk) 06:06, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I have rectified your ill judged edits. The article is referenced according to the Harvard system - in accordance with wikipedia guidelines: Wikipedia:Parenthetical referencing. I used to be a copy-editor also, by the way.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colin4C (talk • contribs) 18:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Did you do a blanket revert without checking whether any of the changes were good or appropriate? H.G. 19:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Reply by Volpeculus sagacis removed by him.

I was asking Colin4C whether he'd reverted all of your changes without checking if any were good. The clue was in the indentation and placement of my comment. H.G. 07:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I still stand firm on the capitalization issue, though. :3 Volpeculus sagacis (talk) 08:18, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

People percieved as being "goths" of "gothic"

 I don't get the modern day "goth" stuff.
 If someone is gothic, does that mean that
 they're obssesed with supernatural beings
 and e.t,c,? or what does it really mean?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.135.173.194 (talk) 01:44, 16 December 2008 (UTC) 

It means that they are young and going through a romantic phase. Soon enough they will be slaves to the system and believe every word of the tabloid press as their brains and body turn to mush...Colin4C (talk) 21:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Goths are a subculture that originated in England in the 80's, but spread around the world (though it's still mostly localised to Europe, especially Britain and Germany). It's basically a fashion style, music genre and lifestyle that are often found together. So a goth will usually wear gothic clothing (often very well dressed, with strong regency and victorian themes but with a macabre overtone; think the Red Death costume worn by Erik in the Phantom of the Opera), listen to gothic music (often similar to standard rock or metal, but with a macabre or nihilistic theme and influences from classical music, such as the inclusion of a piano / harpsichord / violin with a classically trained singer), watch gothic films (which are a form of gothic fiction, as described in this article). etc. They're pretty cool people; I've found them to be more amiable than most subcultures despite their reputation for being depressing and vampiric. 144.82.208.27 (talk) 18:00, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Prominent Examples

Is it perhaps time for another purge of the prominent examples section?

It seems that new novels are being added regularly, regardless of whether they fall into the genre or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alt-o (talk • contribs) 04:39, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Seconded... There be books in that list that may be horror but are definitely not gothic to any acception of the word. maybe I shall endeavour to do such a purge by the end of the week. --Svartalf (talk) 19:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

References

This article IS referenced, using the Harvard system as explicitly endorsed by wikipedia guidelines. See the section on parenthetical referencing in Wikipedia:Citing sources. Colin4C (talk) 09:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

It is fine to have the Harvard system, but the article needs more than just a list of books and articles at the end, there have to be inline citations as well as per WP:CITE. There are very few of these at the moment, so I have added the template requesting more. There are a lot of statements in this article that could be challenged and need to be backed up with an explicit source. I will try to improve this situation, but would appreciate it if I didn't have to find them for the whole thing, so if you know where support for something can be found please help by adding a citation.--SabreBD (talk) 08:38, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

List of prominent examples

The list of prominent examples is out of control. This cannot be a list of every example of Gothic literature, only the most prominent and important. There are a great many books on that list, most of them from the latter half of the 20th century, that are not Gothic at all. The list should be trimmed down to no more than 20 prominent examples. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Twenty is enough. In fact most of the major ones are already in the text, so it could be deleted, or perhaps taken off to an article on "Timeline of Gothic fiction" or "List of gothic fiction".--SabreBD (talk) 16:48, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I removed all of the titles on the list that were already mentioned in the text. I also removed more recent novels which had no article links, which would seem to cast doubt on their notability. There is still a great deal more that could be removed from that list. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 18:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

It is at least an improvement over what was there.--SabreBD (talk) 18:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the latter day examples are a big problem. What makes Salem's Lot Gothic as opposed to just straight horror? The Shining is another, perhaps better example. A great many titles were added to that list, and fairly recently, with no explanation of why they are relevant. I was tempted to remove them all, but a discussion is preferable. Similarly, some of the terms in the "see also" section should be integrated into the article, specifically, dark romanticism and American Gothic. In general, more prose, with better refs, is needed, as opposed to lists. Of course, this is a problem across the site, simply because adding a name or a title to a list is easier than adding well-written, cited, prose. Alas... But, on we go! ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 19:06, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

We haven't had much more of the hoped for discussion over this over the last month, but I agree the list needs further thinning out. I will run through as see if reliable sources can be found that describe these novels as Gothic and delete those for which it cannot. I also take the point about moving subjects from "see also" into the text, but have to admit I find the referencing system used on this article painful in the extreme, which is not a big incentive to add more properly sourced text.--SabreBD (talk) 09:31, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Why does the list need to be "thinned out"? This is an encyclopedia not the readers digest. Also "Salem's Lot", dealing with vampires in a creepy setting, is self-evidently Gothic. See also "Evil Image: Two Centuries of Gothic Short Fiction and Poetry - The Literary Art of Terror from Daniel Defoe to Stephen King" (1981) by Skarda and Jaffe which lists "Salem's Lot" as Gothic (on page 478). Also in an interview with Playboy, King said: "Salem's Lot of course, was inspired by and bears a fully intentional similarity to Bram Stoker's Dracula" (quoted in Gothic Horror (2007) by Clive Bloom). To avoid getting into "Is the Pope a Catholic?" territory can we take it as read that stories set in dungeons in old castles with unearthly screams and ghosts and vampires are Gothic? The purpose of this article is not to provide a water-tight definition of the word "Gothic" provable in a court of law in all instances. The wikipedia is an an encyclopedia, not a dictionary or a legal inquisition. Colin4C (talk) 09:18, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

It is not a question of reducing for the sake of it, but more about removing fancruft and examples that are neither notable or Gothic: the issue here is that Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate information. It is no secret that I do not like lists in general articles, they are just an invitation for pointless additions and take a lot of policing, but that is just my view. I am content if the material has some point and if the contents meet the general criteria for notability and relevance. Thus a reliable source about a book like Salem's Lot defining it as Gothic is enough for me. There are some debatable cases in the list, which we can discuss here if needs be, but most of the non-notable or clearly erroneous material has now been removed.--SabreBD (talk) 13:25, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Btw I have added lots more refs to the text for those who like that sort of thing...Colin4C (talk) 12:39, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

That good work is much appreciated, although I have to say it is not a matter of liking them, but that they are fundamental to Wikipedia and the need for verifiability.--SabreBD (talk) 13:25, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Okay. Just to add that if anyone wants to change the Harvard system of references here to note form, I am perfectly happy with that, as long as it is all consistent...Colin4C (talk) 14:50, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

If I ever discover a rush of enthusiasm for doing this I may make the attempt. It would make it a lot easier to intergrate material from other articles into this one.--SabreBD (talk) 07:34, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

List of Gothic Fiction

What about making completely new Wiki article for listing more titles, just like the one which exist for "high fantasy" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.100.79 (talk) 16:55, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Lermonton's "Bela" and possibly "Tamanj"

Lermontov's short story "Bela", featured in "The hero of Our Time" is pretty much a gothic story.

"Prominent features of Gothic fiction include terror (both psychological and physical), mystery, the supernatural, ghosts, haunted houses and Gothic architecture, castles, darkness, death, decay, doubles, madness, secrets, and hereditary curses." "Bela" includes: TERROR (of both kinds), CASTLES, DEATH, MADNESS, and partly SECRETS.

"The stock characters of Gothic fiction include tyrants, villains, bandits, maniacs, Byronic heroes, persecuted maidens, femmes fatales, monks, nuns, madwomen, magicians, vampires, werewolves, monsters, demons, dragons, angels, fallen angels, revenants, ghosts, perambulating skeletons, the Wandering Jew and the Devil himself." "Bela" includes: VILLAINS, BANDITS, MANIACS, BYRONIC HERO, PRESECUTED MAIDEN.

Also, his story "Tamanj" from "The Hero of Our Time" includes: -MYSTERY, DARKNESS, SECRETS -VILLAINS, BYRONIC HERO, FEMME FATALE, possibly MADWOMEN + SMUGGLERS and BLINDMAN WITH SECRETS — Preceding unsigned comment added by HeadlessMaster (talk • contribs) 12:26, 27 November 2010

The critera for inclusion is not resemblence but whether a reliable source can be found that indicates this. If it can it is fine.--SabreBD (talk) 12:30, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

So, what kind of a source I need to find, please tell me? I can give you a synopsis of the stories if you want. Everything I wrote is included, as I had read these stories few days ago. I would also like which proof is needed, so that I know for future contributions, because I would really like to improve this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HeadlessMaster (talk • contribs) 12:40, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

here is some reference to gothic: http://www.bibliographing.com/2010/03/08/a-hero-of-our-time-by-mikhail-lermontov/ ; also here: http://users.stargate.net/~ffrank/RUSSIAN_GOTHIC.html HeadlessMaster (talk) 12:45, 27 November 2010 (UTC) HeadlessMaster

Split suggestion

I think that all examples should be listed in a separate article, such as this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high_fantasy_fiction or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fairytale_fantasies or maybe even this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thriller_authors HeadlessMaster (talk) 14:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I am fine with the suggestion.--SabreBD (talk) 22:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gothic_Fiction_works HeadlessMaster (talk) 18:49, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Why is Parody the opening section?

As a reader who wanted to learn more about Gothic Fiction I found it strange that the first section in main part of the article is about parodies of Gothic fiction. Not much has been established in the article to jump to that section that soon. Almogo (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Early Examples

The article as it stands (in Feb 2011) seems rather weak on the early (18th century) period of the genre. It mentions Walpole's 'Otranto', but not other major early examples like Mrs Radcliffe's novels, Beckford's 'Vathek', or Lewis's 'The Monk'. Instead of a systematic coverage of the 18th century there is a section on 'Parody', which focuses on those lesser-known items mentioned in Northanger Abbey. Ideally someone who is qualified to cover the 18th century period (not me!) should contribute a new opening section.86.162.218.252 (talk) 12:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree that this is a weakness in the article. It really needs a concise summary of the orgins of the genre after the lead. Unfortunately I do not have time at the moment to very much about this. If you (or anyone) can find some reliable sources and have a go at a new opening section that would be great.--SabreBD (talk) 16:17, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

I have restored the relevent material which had been deleted by a vandal. Colin4C (talk) 00:58, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Misstatement: Seidlits a Catholic or Protestant?

In discussion of "Zeluco," the article reads: "Colonel Seidlits, a Catholic, was married to Madame de Seidlits, a Catholic.... Colonel Seidlits strongly believes it would be morally wrong to make an attempt to convert his wife to Protestantism." My apologies for not having the time to read the book ("novel"? novel), so I must ask: was it meant to say that Seidlits was a *Protestant*? GcT (talk) 17:41, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

No mention of superheroes such as Batman or science fiction obviously (although perhaps indirectly) influenced by the Gothic fiction movement such as Blade Runner?

Just wondering.... both of the above pieces seem awfully Gothic to me; let's not forget Japanese anime works such as Hellsing or English pop culture kitbashes such as Harry Potter... — Rickyrab | Talk 01:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, the Blade Runner article cites film noir as being the primary cultural heritage of that movie; that genre of film goes back to crime dramas and police stories rather than horror stories set amid Gothic architecture. However, the gloomy air of those detective stories - and the femme fatale characters, among other items - suggest some inspiration from the Gothic literary movement. — Rickyrab | Talk 01:23, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

This article is misplaced and terrible uggly. It breaks uniform with the rest and should be removed or shortened. First, it is to long becouse the other descriptions are of a certain lenght, and second it is replace description with a personal comment where there has been description untill now. It also offers no information.

- Reviewers do not know what to do when a seemingly good character is made evil. It does not often happen in Gothic novels and therefore this reviewer has problems buying it. Furthermore, this reviewer seems to be so accustomed to the idea of only one evil villain that they state there should be a greater difference between the punishments both receive at the end of the novel. “As to Nouronihar, I fear that it may be objected that she becomes too suddenly wicked. Some small discrimination of punishment however between her and Vathek may be somewhat aggravated, the end will be perhaps best answered in that way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.138.83 (talk) 22:41, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Light in the window

I dont have the source for the quote, but its from a history of paperbacks in america. a book editor observed that romantic gothic novels of the 60s and 70s often had castles and mansions on the cover. If a window in the building was lit up, the title sold uniformly better than those with unlit windows. the market was that specific in its interests. If i do find the quote and source, i will add it.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 19:02, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Prominent examples

The long Prominent examples list at the end of the article isn't needed. The article is full of prominent examples, discussed in detail. Span (talk) 06:46, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Its unsourced and there is no way of verifying that these are all prominent. Most of the ones that fit that description are in the text. Lets delete it.--SabreBD (talk) 08:54, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Too long

Both the Architecture and the Female Gothic sections are too large. Both belong, but both look like someone wrote a college paper on the topics and just had to share what they learned. Maybe both are worth their own entries, but both need to be edited down here. MarkinBoston (talk) 22:21, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

You are right, they do read a bit like undergraduate papers and probably stray into synthesis.--SabreBD (talk) 23:41, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

examples of gothic characters and elements only cites 2 stories

The section seems like someone wrote a high school paper and just listed every character from the two books Romance in the Forest and Castle of Ottorous. It is silly to cite only 2 books in a section about common elements in a genre. Please fix this whole section... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:9:76C0:53:3C84:FD6A:58F6:85B8 (talk) 06:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Just a note that this section now includes an "Elements found especially in American Gothic fiction" section, which has no citations at all. --76.75.106.236 (talk) 19:50, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Medieval "Gothic fiction"

In the article Perceforest there's a phrase "like other late Gothic romances". Evidently, this is not the same use of the word "Gothic" as in "Gothic fiction", but perhaps it should be mentioned in this article that sometimes, the terms are used to refer to works from the "authentic" Gothic period, so that readers might find some explanation to this confusing use. --85.253.175.12 (talk) 08:21, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

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Capitalisation

I am fairly certain the capitalisation of ‘gothic’ is unnecessary in this context. While ‘Gothic’ is capitalised for the architectural style and for the group of German people, but pretty much every scholar I have seen has written it in lower case for the literary genre, so I believe it should be changed in this article. Frightvale (talk) 08:44, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Description What you type — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8F8:1E23:BACD:4D94:AD25:F96B:2E88 (talk) 07:22, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Recent reverts

1.) "bothe" remains a typo.
2.) Please see WP:SIZERULE.
3.) Please see the discussion above re the scope of this article, to wit: "Roman noir and Schauerroman belong to a different tradition, they are literary products of a different society, they are not continental examples of the English gothic (another Angst underpins them)." And by another editor: "The Roman noir and the Schauerroman are characterised as 'parallel Romantic literary movements', not as Gothic!"

"Schauerroman's key elements are necromancy and secret societies and it is remarkably more pessimistic than the British Gothic novel. All those elements are the basis for Friedrich von Schiller's unfinished novel The Ghost-Seer (1786–1789)..." The elements mentioned are those of Schuerroman. The source cited is Cusack fr a book he based upon a 2009 Dublin conference on readings and receptions of Schauerroman, which is cover under the Dark romanticism article. Manannan67 (talk) 18:29, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

@WP:SIZERULE: "These rules of thumb apply only to readable prose and not to wiki markup size (as found on history lists or other means), and each kB can be equated to 1,000 characters." - the page is currently at 55kB of readable prose. StjepanHR (talk) 18:59, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

@Schauerroman: German version of this article is called Schauerliteratur and even "Otranto" is refered to as "Schauerroman": https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schauerliteratur StjepanHR (talk) 19:07, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Feel free to create a separate article on the separate genre. Manannan67 (talk) 19:15, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

I would if it were separate genre. Schauerliteratur and gothic fiction ARE THE SAME THING, only in different languages (at best, if not the exactly the same thing, Schauerroman is pretty much a German variant of early English gothic novel, which are both part of broader gothic fiction genre):

• https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100445164
• https://books.google.hr/books?id=-YUaAAAAYAAJ&q=gothic+novel+schauerroman&dq=gothic+novel+schauerroman&hl=hr&sa=X&redir_esc=y

https://books.google.hr/books?id=ocREAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA233&dq=gothic+novel+schauerroman&hl=hr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiclazXvobyAhVtVRUIHXCOBvc4ChDoATADegQIAxAC#v=onepage&q=schauerroman&f=false

• https://books.google.hr/books?id=h_wfYKnMfOkC&pg=PA460&dq=gothic+novel+schauerroman&hl=hr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiU0KWWv4byAhXBaRUIHccuBe44FBDoATABegQIBRAC#v=onepage&q=schauerroman&f=false
• https://books.google.hr/books?hl=hr&lr=&id=bmYgAgAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA2&dq=gothic+novel+schauerroman&ots=WqHg2behvu&sig=eDSWZz48ZjIVCdfRa9qVgIg5U4A&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=schauerroman&f=false StjepanHR (talk) 19:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)