Talk:Grammar school/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

(archive of comments up to October 2008, when Grammar schools in the United Kingdom was merged into this article)

Graduation

After graduation, the student attends college.

I've removed the above sentence. We don't "graduate" from school, for one thing... And we don't necessarily attend anything else afterwards. And if we do, there is a distinction between further education and higher education. I'm not entirely sure what the definitions are, but I think further education generally happens at some sort of college, while higher education happens at a university... Erm, I think someone else should clarify this... -- Oliver P. 14:35 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Further education is just education in addition to what you received at secondary school. It may be at the same level, at a higher level, or at a lower level than secondary education, anything from basic training to a Ph D. Higher education (also known as tertiary education) is education at a higher level than secondary education. In the UK it could be an HNC, an HND, a degree or higher. In the UK, colleges normally handle the types of further education which are not classed as higher education while universities, polytechnics and institutes of technology normally handle higher education (but there is often some overlap). -- Derek Ross 16:13 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Ah! Thanks for explaining that. It's a lot clearer now. I've nicked your text and put it at further education, by the way. :) -- Oliver P. 16:35 26 May 2003 (UTC)

I've rephrased the deleted sentence. --Menchi 14:40 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Hmm. Well I went to university. And besides, where someone goes after leaving a grammar school is no different from where one goes after leaving any other sort of secondary school, so mentioning it at all may be misleading. The reader might be left with the impression that going on to further/higher education is something specifically relevant to grammar schools, when in fact it isn't. -- Oliver P. 14:47 26 May 2003 (UTC)

It parallels what's mentioned in high school:

American students are allowed to leave high school at age 16-18, depending on the state, or when they graduate or go on to college or other education.

It's not clear to many that the American g.s. is before high school, and the British before college. Let alone even knowing that the British one is a secondary school. This can clarify a great deal. --Menchi 15:13 26 May 2003 (UTC)

eleven plus

Here's a question. Although I know there are some grammar schools left, is the exam still called "eleven plus"? I didn't think that terminology was still in use. Deb 15:44 26 May 2003 (UTC)

User:Boris the Inquisitive Goat changed "was" to "is", with the edit comment, "it still exists!" I think the exam is now a different one, and might have a different official name, but the old name has stuck in common usage... I think... -- Oliver P. 16:36 26 May 2003 (UTC)

I took the twelve plus...I can't find any reference to it anywhere. Must be quite rare. How special do I feel? :)

The 11+ is still widely used. I am invigilating one in a few weeks, but, as said in the article is is only used in some counties. N.B. the 12+ is an exam taken by those who join a grammar school in year 8 Englishnerd 19:19, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

private and public

Before going into detail, what you people should do is clarify a number of points for all the users who are not familiar with the term. Does "grammar school" in Britain mean the opposite of what it is in the United States? Is this just like "public school"? Did I get this right? --KF 15:52 26 May 2003 (UTC)

That's another good point. Grammar schools can be private schools or state schools, if I'm not mistaken. Deb 15:54 26 May 2003 (UTC)

I thought that grammar schools had to be state schools (i.e. not private schools), but to be honest I'm not sure. My school was a state school, but you can't generalise from a sample of one... -- Oliver P. 16:36 26 May 2003 (UTC)

To understand grammar schools in the UK, you need a bit of history. After WW2, the government reorganised the secondary schools into two basic types. Secondary moderns were intended for children who would be going into a trade and concentrated on the basics plus practical skills; grammar schools were intended for children who would be going on to higher education and concentrated on the classics, science, etc. This system lasted until the 1960s, at which point it was pointed out that it was a pretty discriminatory system which wasn't getting the most out of children. Partly because some authorities tended to prioritise their budgets on the grammar schools, damaging the education prospects of children attending secondary moderns.

The decision was taken to switch to a single type of school designed to give every child a complete education. That's why this new type of school is called a comprehensive school. However the timetable of the changeover was left to the local authorities, some of whom were very anti the whole idea and thus dragged their feet for as long as possible. The result is that there is now a mixture. Some authorities run a proper comprehensive system, others run secondary moderns and grammar schools (except that they've rebadged the secondary moderns as "comprehensives").

Most private schools provide the same type of education as a grammar school, but there are exceptions, Gordonstoun for one. In areas where the local authority provides a comprehensive education -- which some parents don't like for political, or status reasons -- private grammar schools are particularly common. -- Derek Ross

"For political or status reasons"? Hmm, I wonder what your point of view on this subject is. ;) You forgot the reason about them wanting their children to have a good education... -- Oliver P. 18:41 26 May 2003 (UTC)

No I didn't, that's what I meant by the political reason. We all want our children to attend a school which we think will give them a good education. Politics enters into whether we think that a grammar or a comprehensive is more likely to do that or whether it doesn't make a lot of difference. As for my POV, I have attended state school and private school and have sent one child to private school (grammar type) and two to (comprehensive) state schools. <grin>You tell me what my POV is.</grin> -- Derek Ross 22:52 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Might as well clarify what I mean by status reasons too. We all want our children to do well in later life. Increasing their status is just as likely to help them as providing them with a good education. And whether we personally think that people who have attended private or streamed education are better people than the average or not, we should all be aware that there are a lot of people who do think that, a lot who think it makes no difference, and only a few who think that it makes you a worse person. Therefore on average, attendance at grammar or private school is more likely to be a help than a hindrance in later life whatever the actual quality of the education at the particular school chosen. Giving their children that status increase is something that many people choose to do, whatever their personal beliefs. -- Derek Ross 00:28 27 May 2003 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for explaining. That makes sense. But you've confused me with your apparently inconsistent choices of schools for your children! But never mind; I'd better resist the urge to pry further into your motivations. :) I'll just try not to jump to conclusions about people's points of view in future... -- Oliver P. 11:22 27 May 2003 (UTC)

In actual fact I think you will find most Grammar schools are privately funded, for example mine is a foundation school which means it receives government grants but no fees are paid and it is not controlled by the state, so it depends on what is mant by 'private'. K.E Aston Grammar school for boys -- ???

Re grammar schools in UK: "in theory open to all and offered free tuition to those who could not afford to pay fees" - I think this exaggerates the position and makes it sound like they were already part of the welfare state, before 1944. See the article "Grammar Schools in the UK", the wording there ("the schools relied on fees paid by the students") gives a more accurate representation. -- FWadel 15:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Grammar schools ARE public (asin state schools), BUT some grammar schools (which were forced to turn into comprehensives), rebelled, chose to switch to private and therefore are fee-paying but retained their Grammar school title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.103.40.194 (talk) 01:19, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

generality

this seems to be a very general article. any ideas for a section on Britain, america etc?? it provides no perspective of different countries. I would add the area I come from, but it would be a bit random without other areas in the world. at any rate, grammar school pupil selection, funding etc. is hardly the same throughout the world. any ideas for a section on Britain, america etc?? ♪♫ MαRΤiαΠ_Ŀostiη^SPΛĊΞFile:Untitled-1 copy.gif 21:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

There is, infact, a whole other page on grammer schools in the UK. Should this be a seperate article, or a section within Grammar school? Englishnerd 17:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It makes sense to reference it anyway (done) Mucky Duck 22:17, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Comparison with European countries

I wondered if Englishnerd could elaborate here on what he means by the similarity to "European tiered schools". As I understand it in 1944 there were quite different systems in different European countries. Does this phrase add anything to the explanation about grammar schools? Itsmejudith 08:11, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I meant it as a point of reference, as in Europe, esp. Germany, pupils will go to different (Gymnasium, Realschule, etc.) schools depending on their academic level and the centre of their knowledge. This is similar to the system that was set up in England. Englishnerd 19:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I see, but it was not the same all over Europe. I know about France best and while France had many kinds of schools there was no concept of "secondary schools of different types", because only the "lycées" were classified as secondary schools. So your addition could be confusing for anyone who doesn't know the German system but does know other European systems. I have got some books on the history of education which may clarify the conceptual origins of the 1944 tripartite system. However, I'm not sure that this is the best article for this anyway, since there is also Grammar schools in the United Kingdom. Itsmejudith 21:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Grammar schools in Australia

I wonder whether the article's current association between "grammar school" and "Anglican Church" is too strong. (The association does make a bit more sense if one remembers that the Anglican Church would have been called Church of England when most of these schools were founded, making it more understandable for their schools to be named according to an English model.)

The main article could mention the Grammar Schools Act (Qld), as the only example of where ‘grammar school’ may have some technical meaning established by government.

In order to provide a better answer to the question of what ‘grammar school’ means in Australia, and to be able to substantiate such an answer, I provide here a list of current schools in Australia whose name includes ‘Grammar’ (plus/including SCEGGS Darlinghurst). The list was formed from manual search through the pages linked from Lists of schools in Australia.

I hesitate to add this list here given that the list is rather long, but can't think of a better place to put it. E.g. the list isn't suitable for an article in itself, precisely because ‘grammar school’ has no firm meaning in Australia.

Of the 84 schools, 13 mention ‘Anglican’ or ‘Church of England’ in their (current) name (but including SCEGGS Darlinghurst), though several others are associated with the Anglican Church without mentioning it in the name. A small number mention a different denomination such as ‘Baptist’ or ‘Greek Orthodox’. Some are non-denominational. At least one (Iqra Grammar College) is Islamic.

A small number of these schools include only primary education, including (at least) one covering only years K-3. Quite a few cover all primary & secondary year levels (K-12).

Few if any are state (government-run) schools.

Some have boarding facilities, some are purely day schools.

Australian Capital Territory:

New South Wales:

Northern Territory: (No schools with ‘grammar’ in name.)

Queensland:

South Australia:

Tasmania:

Launceston Church Grammar School

Victoria:

Western Australia:

Pjrm (talk) 05:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

UK Grammar Schools - Voluntary

'The Government run 11 plus selection exam has now been abolished in the UK, and no longer do all children sit for it as used to be the case. However, voluntary selection tests are still conducted in certain areas of the UK, where some of the original grammar schools have been retained.'

The article seems to imply that tests in all areas were there are grammar schools are voluntary. This is not the case in Buckinghamshire (or I believe Kent.) Everyone in the county is expected to take the test, and refusal to take it will result in a school being allocated as if a pupil received a fail. The main difference is that these non-voluntary areas (Buckinghamshire) have Secondary Moderns, NOT comprehensives as an alternative. The percetage going to Grammar School is therefore considerably higher, around 40% I believe.

-- Brian M Peers 4th June 2008

I think it's opt-in in Kent and opt-out in Bucks, but your point stands. Anyway, the UK section should be cut back: there's no need to approximate the content of the Grammar schools in the United Kingdom and Tripartite System articles here. This article is basically an expanded dictionary entry, explaining the different meanings of the phrase in various places. Kanguole (talk) 22:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Why does it say 'Such systems still exist in Buckinghamshire, Rugby and Stratford districts of Warwickshire, the Salisbury district of Wiltshire, Stroud in Gloucestershire and most of Lincolnshire, Kent and Medway. '?

I think you'll find the whole of Kent and Medway......?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.24.144 (talk • contribs) 03:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Not according to the literature produced by those local authorities. Kanguole (talk) 08:59, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Well trust me, it is the whole of Kent and Medway, hence why im changing it.

Proposed merge

I propose that grammar schools in the United Kingdom be merged into this article.

This article is little more than a dictionary entry. Moreover the school types described for Australia, Canada, Hong Kong and Ireland are offshoots of the British type—it therefore makes sense to treat them together with the original type. The US usage is not a separate concept, but another name (and an obsolescent one at that) for elementary school, and there is nothing more to say about them here. On the other hand, the contents of grammar schools in the United Kingdom is what is meant by almost all of the [[grammar school]] links on WP.

So I propose that

the US usage be handled with a disambiguation link,
the current content of grammar schools in the United Kingdom form the main body of the grammar school article, and
an "Other countries" section discuss grammar schools in Australia, Canada, Hong Kong and Ireland.

Comments? Kanguole (talk) 10:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Support - it seems that uses outside the UK are limited, and so it would make sense for the main article to discuss the most widely-used definition, and incorporate the other uses. Tafkam (talk) 15:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
Support Very logical. Might be worth making a "list of Grammar schools in [insert country]" article. Five Years 15:37, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

At present we have List of grammar schools in England and List of grammar schools in Northern Ireland. Kanguole (talk) 07:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Support Makes sense. -LelandRB (Chat · contribs) 21:28, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Oppose There does not necessarily need to be 2 articles, but I'm not sure why the US should be a DAB link nor why the UK version should be considered the parent of the others. The current Irish grammar schools are no more an offshoot of the British system of today. I would suggest that considering the UK system - and lets be clear that it is not a cohesive system right across the UK either - to be the 'parent' system is slightly naive and a symptom of the systemic bias that WP is noted for. The global distribution certainly suggests an anglophile root and that may be notable and worthy of mention and perhaps further exploration. But without some verifiable reference which states that the current non-UK systems are based on the UK system, I would suggest that such a contention is original research. The current use of {{main}} in the UK section works very well IMHO. Crispness (talk) 06:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The reason for proposing a dab link for the modern US usage is that no-one wants to write about Grammar schools in the United States, because that's just another name for elementary schools, which are already covered in Education in the United States. Similarly there is no demand for a separate article on grade schools.

The Irish schools with "grammar" in their names are not an offshoot of the current British system, but the article already says that they were of an earlier system. Similarly those in Australia and Hong Kong. I didn't use the word "parent", but perhaps I should have made it clearer that the modern grammar schools in England and Northern Ireland (as defined by legislation) are also an development of the earlier system.

But let's talk specifics. You've said you don't object to a single article. Do you have an objection to the specific structure proposed above, and if so what alternative structure would you propose? Kanguole (talk) 08:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Merged. Kanguole (talk) 23:34, 1 October 2008 (UTC)