Talk:History of the Jews in Albania

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Ruches as a reference[edit]

Here an interesting debate for the factual accuracy of Ruches [1] a highly anti-Albanian author. Aigest (talk) 08:09, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

anti-albanian doesn't mean non 'rs', as per wiki policy. Although I really doubt if he is highly anti-albanian.Alexikoua (talk) 08:37, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He is lying in simple things, just as Borova massacre, no credibility at all for this author, others don't confirm him, moreover they contradict him 100% saved jews in Albania historians [2] first eye witnesses [3] . Stop using that ridiculous POV source. Aigest (talk) 10:14, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This thing is simple madness, your arguments are far too weak and you finally prove nothing, especially in Borova case. Dozen of authors confirm Ruches. Stop reverting 'rs' stuff, just because you consider them anti-Albanian.Alexikoua (talk)

Let's make it simple. Can you list me "dozen of authors" who support Ruches claims here in this case? Aigest (talk) 11:29, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Can I begin with a reference from a Jewish site http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org [4] where there is the known fact of 400 Jews from Kosovo were deported during summer 1944, not from Albania proper (or do you consider greater Albania=Albani?)

Albania, the only European country with a Muslim majority, succeeded in the place where other European nations failed. Almost all Jews living within Albanian borders during the German occupation, those of Albanian origin and refugees alike, were saved, except members of a single family. Impressively, there were more Jews in Albania at the end of the war than beforehand.

  • A history of East European Jews by Heiko Haumann Edition illustrated Publisher Central European University Press, 2002 ISBN 9639241261, 9789639241268 [8]
  • Rescue in Albania: One Hundred Percent of Jews in Albania Rescued from Holocaust by Harvey Sarner Publisher Brunswick Press, 1997 ISBN 1888521090, 9781888521092
  • The path of the righteous: gentile rescuers of Jews during the Holocaust by Mordecai Paldiel Publisher KTAV Publishing House, Inc., 1993 ISBN 0881253766, 9780881253764
  • A dictionary of Albanian religion, mythology and folk culture by Robert Elsie Edition illustrated Publisher C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2001 ISBN 1850655707, 9781850655701
  • Albania at war, 1939-1945 by Bernd Jürgen Fischer Edition illustrated Publisher C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1999 ISBN 1850655316, 9781850655312
  • The case for Kosova: passage to independence by Anna Di Lellio Publisher Anthem Press, 2006 ISBN 1843312298, 9781843312291


all the sources with the authors above agree on fact that except the 400 case deprotation in Kosova there was no such thing in Albania proper. Aigest (talk) 13:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ruches phrase[edit]

However, the Jews community of Vlore, which numbered less than 100 families, was expelled from the country due to a collaborationist proclamation of a Nuremberg Law

  • Date in which the Nuremberg Law was proclaimed by collaborationist?
  • Date in which these families were expelled?
  • The country in which those families were expelled?(very curious about it?)

Moreover giving the fact that in the beginning of the war there were about 300 jews in Albania. That means that all were expelled? The numbers don't fit (1 family=4members) it means all jews were expelled?! Yeah Ruches fantasies as always. Aigest (talk) 12:45, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see nothing more than a clear one-sided approach. Weak arguments, no serious counter-argument. If a author is considered anti-Albanian by pov-thinking users doesn't mean he isn't 'rs'.

Nice bibliography, suppose you wanna prove that this is the perfect-superlibrary ('your books are better than mine'-sounds childish, like in MAVI). I wonder why you propose Elsie, on Ali Pasha talk page, you reject his claims about Ali's (non Albanian) origin (classical pov approach 'I like Elsie on this article, but not on Ali Pasha's....).

Ruches says that the only Jew victims were the ones in Valona (less than 100 faimilies), it happened during the Italian occupation (no wonder). The primary is: Albanien's Wiedergeburt (Albanian's rebirth), Kolleger Willibald, Vienna , 1942.

As per wp:rs, we are ok.Alexikoua (talk) 18:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't approve Elsie we can leave it out, in Ali Pasha's case there were some published biographies on Ali Pasha which are more reliable than a single short paragraph with no references at all. You seem to like to use endnotes in the books and not the book itself. In the case of Ali Pasha the book was a poetry The highland lute by Gjergj Fishta, (Robert Elsie, Janice Mathie-Heck, were the editors) Centre for Albanian Studies (London, England) it appears in a note without references which I can not confirm etc it is contradicted by published biographies on Ali Pasha, which I think are more accurate and RS sources. In the case of the Jews article, after the article Elsie had the full list of references (next page) page 142 here [9] so I see him as a reliable source in this case moreover confirmed by many other sources, primary, secondary, tertiary, so it's mainstream. While Ruches is not wp:rs since it is contradicted by the mainstream. None confirms its story, moreover the mainstream maintain exact opposite standing, making him perfect for fringe theories. Aigest (talk) 06:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me the only reason you say Ruches is not WP:RS is because you don't like him. His book is published by a mainstream publishing house, so he satisfies both WP:V and WP:RS. The other sources also do not contradict him, you are just making that up. And please stop edit-warring, you have already broken 3RR. --Athenean (talk) 06:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read the above mainstream or not? They contradict him totally. None of them speaks about an expulsion of Jews from Albania proper. They all have the same standing "In Albania all existing and other Jews (coming from neighboring countries were saved) only in Kosovo there was a case of deportation of 400 jews. Where do you see there to be mentioned any Jews expulsion from Vlora in 1942? Up to now there is Ruches word against them, simple logic he is against mainstream here, no need for fringe theories here Aigest (talk) 07:10, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No one explicitly refutes Ruches. They just don't go into the same level of detail. That's not the same as refuting. Ruches specifically speaks about Valona. None of your "mainstream" sources mention Valona. As for fringe theories, you would be well advised to look in the mirror. --Athenean (talk) 07:12, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Did it pass through your mind that since none of mainstream mentions Valona case then Valona it is not. Simple as that. Aigest (talk) 07:16, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever dude, arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall. You just call any source you don't like fringe, without knowing what a reliable source is. ruches IS a reliable source. His book is published ny a major publishing house. Simple as that. Moving on. --Athenean (talk) 07:25, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There other criteria s except being published, a WP:NPOV or no fringe theories for eg that means a NPOV standing and level of acceptance among the relevant academic community. Ruches does not fulfill both of them. Aigest (talk) 08:10, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:RS and WP:V, and read them well. I am sick discussing things with people who have no idea how wikipedia works. Wikipedia already has established criteria for when a source can be considered reliable. It does not need yours. --Athenean (talk) 18:32, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What does this passage even mean? Here's the original sentence, from Ruches: They were expelled to the accompaniment of an Albanian proclamation of a "Nuremberg Law" (scare-quotes in Ruches' original).

So, what is "a" "Nuremberg Law"? Apparently it's not just "the" Nuremberg Laws. And in any case, the Nuremberg Laws, bad as they were, didn't (yet) aim at the mass expulsion of Jews.

Given the fact that the book as a whole is highly partisan/polemic and hardly of academic quality, and the claim is contradicted by more mainstream literature, and the sketchy indistinct nature of the claim, if there are no other sources to substantiate what Ruches means and what his claim is based on (i.e. what that law was, who declared it, when and where), the passage goes out. As it stands, it is highly misleading. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:32, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Deportation of Jews fom Albania to Bergen-Belsen (1942)[edit]

I've found the stuff below in googlebooks (about Jews's persecution in Albania as well as deportation to Germany):

April 1939 Italy invades Albania; thousands of non-Albanian Jews are stranded in the country; Jews suffer financial hardship and official discrimination (a general view of Jews in Albania+the rest of the page is not available to me, can contain also usefull info.)

the utter eradication of every Jew (as defined the Nuremberg Laws), without possibility of escape. At the Wansee conference it was decided in one breath (and in one statistical table) to kill one hundred Jews in Albania...

the deportation of Jews from Albania to Bergen-Belsen (map 230) [in page 193.-a detailed map of how the Jews from Albania reached Germany]

There is also an interested map in p. 244, about Albania says ca. 200 Jews were murdered (between 1939-1945).

(p. 217) In resolution adopted at the Nazis' 1942 Wansee Conference, at which the bureaucratic arrangements were made for the Final Solution, not a single Jewish community was left out, not even the 200 Jews living in Albania.

  • History of the HolocaustEric Joseph Epstein, Philip Rosen. confirms the deportation from Albania to Bergen-Belsen: p. 5, "several Albanian Jews were deported to Bergen-Belsen"

I'm sure there are many other books that confirm Ruches' sentence. Suppose the primary source that Ruches mentions (Albania's Wiedergeburt, Vienna 1942, obviously a pro-Nazi work about occupied Albania), is hard to find today. To sum up: There was a 'Nuremberg Law' (Nuremberg Laws were proclamations that were used as an excuse for the persecution and subsequently deportation of Jew communities -breaching bureaucratic procedures- issued in several occupied countries) issue in Albania, according to the Wansee Conference in 1942. 200 (probably this equals 'less than 100 families') Jews were departed from Albania to Bergen-Belsen.

The only point I can not confirm about Ruches is that the departed Jews were only from 'Vlore'. As per Aegis 'one sided accusations' (to sum up: he forgets to mention that the one that accused Ruches of being 'interesting but highly pro-Greek' is repeatedetely accused by being 'clearly pro-Albanian' [[10]], [[11]], [[12]], [[13]]-suppose in that way Vickers and Petiffer are much more unreliable , 'paradoxically' they summarize Ruche's section about NE Lib. Front 1942-1944 [[14]], [[15]]), I have repeatedetely answered in Talk:Northern Epirus Liberation Front.

My personal opinion about Ruches is that he is anti-soviet in some sentences (it's a book printed in US in 60's), but there is not a single uncomfirmed fact (he is one of the authors that adopts the Albanian-Illyrian continuity scenario, moreover provides citations, bibliography etc.). No discrepancies at all, he is comfirmed by a number of authors and institutions anyway (anyone who needs something about Ruches', i'm ready to provide it, he is verifiable in googlebooks).

I strongly believe that the above mentioned authors and institutions are 'rs'.Alexikoua (talk) 05:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, all the interesting bits in these sources are not accessible to me in Google books, so I'll have to ask you to document more fully what they say. Please note that, from what I can gather from your quotes, all the sources that mention the Wannsee conference seem to be only saying that Albania was included on a list of intended targets, not whether those deportations were actually carried out (The Wannsee info is of course interesting and should be included in some form, but it's a different issue). Source 1 only speaks of "financial hardship and official discrimination", not of deportations. That leaves us with the material from the Routledge Atlas of the Holocaust and from Epstein's Dictionary of the Holocaust, certainly good sources, so if you can please provide more information of what it says, I'd be grateful. In any case, if we have these sources, we don't need third-rate material like Ruches. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The 2 sources: Routledge Atlas of the Holocaust&Epstein, claim that the deportation did happen, Routledge, I've added info (pages, quotes -as much as I could find-) above. On Routledge:there is the specific route that Albanian Jews followed (map 230) from Albania to Bergen-Belsen. In the same book, page: 244, map: 317 "Jews muderdered between 1 September and 8 May 1945: An estimate" it says Albania: 200. I still wonder why Aegis counter-proposes R. Elsie here, provided that he rejects him in Talk:Ali Pasha.Alexikoua (talk) 08:42, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for a bit more context of what these sources say. Could you please oblige? (And don't you tell me you can't get the details on Google books: this is not a topic one can write on the basis of google. If you can't get the whole thing online with complete context, go to a library before you come here.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I talk about googlebooks because I can prove my claims here, writing about something I can't prove online doesn;t make sense. Personally speaking, I'm spending half my days in liberaries (not because of wiki). There is a sequence: 'Wallsee conference-Nuremberg Law-deportation of ca. 200 Albanian-Jews to Bergen-Belsen'. The 2 books mentioned don't give detailed description about the departed Albanian-Jews, are dealing with the holocaust in general. (suppose this doesn't mean they give wrong information).

Some other stuff that confirm Albanian-Jews deportation (according Wannsee Conference decisions) to c.c.:

To sum up, there are testimonies (routledge) that comfirm the fact (the deportation) by a number of 'rs' institutes, but not detailed descriptions (these 2 works are based on a general basis according to the holocaust). Suppose the fact is clear based on wp:rsAlexikoua (talk) 11:45, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Sequence 'Wallsee conference–Nuremberg Law'?? Are you still talking of "Nuremberg Laws" as a generic term? There's no such thing; there were the Nuremberg Laws, and you ought to know they were a lot earlier than Wannsee. For Ruches to use the term so loosely is irresponsible enough (and should in and of itself be enough to stamp his book as second-rate), but at least he used scare quotes; please don't water the terminology down even further. – As for the Routledge atlas, all the maps I have seen appear to give fairly precise datings and context information, so if there are maps dealing with the Albanian case, I'd like to hear a bit more about what they say. Same for the Dictionary of the Holocaust; it apparently does provide some more detailed information, so please provide it. – Other than that, okay, we have now heard that a number of sources name a figure of 200 victims. We still haven't established what actually happened on the ground though. Without the "when", "where" and "by whom" this is all not very useful yet. Remember that this whole fracas started when you insisted on including a claim that the deportations from Vlorë happened with substantial collaborationist participation of some local forces. So, who did what and when? (From the page sequence in the Routledge Atlas, I gather that most of the events would be in mid-1944 (i.e. after the German takeover from the Italians, presumably). Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:49, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

MIsinterpreting book's snippet views and historical sources[edit]

  • Unless there is bad luck,(google.books shows different pages in different countries) I can see nothing confirming Ruches version in any of your posted links.
  • If Ruches use a reference of 1942, than you should know that Albania was under Italian rule, so Ruches of course is misinterpreting a German plan for Jews extermination (planned in the Wansee Conference 1942 in Germany) with what actually happened in Albania (page 179 Routledge atlas "The Jews of Albania had survived unmolested under Italian rule"). That this was a german plan for extermination of every jew in Europe that is no doubt "In resolution adopted at the Nazis' 1942 Wansee Conference, at which the bureaucratic arrangements were made for the Final Solution, not a single Jewish community was left out, not even the 200 Jews living in Albania." From Herzl to Rabin: the changing image of Zionism by Amnon Rubinstein Holmes & Meier, 2000 page 217, but to use the german plan as a prove that happened (while reality in this case contradicts him and none speaks of Jews from Vora being deprted, moereover under Italian rule 1939-1943) that is called misinterpretation. That's the risk what happened when you use snippet views of books, trying to reach your own conclusions from extrapolated sentences. I made you some questions above
   * Date in which the Nuremberg Law was proclaimed by collaborationist?
   * Date in which these families were expelled?
   * The country in which those families were expelled?(very curious about it?)

And you still didn't answer. Now let's suppose that Ruches reference is a book of 1942 right? Than it should have happened in 1942 don't you think? Surprisingly you don't see any sources (I mean anyone except Ruches) to support that has been a deportation of Jews from Albania in 1942(?!) The only case of Jews deportation related not to Albania but to Greater Albania (created by Italians and Germans including Cham region and Kosovo) was that of 1944 from Pristina concentration camp of Jews being arrested in Kosovo. Please don't base your work on snippet views anymore (moreover if they say nothing like in this case) Aigest (talk) 07:24, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rubinstein [[16]] is quite clear that it happened in 1942 (when Albania was with personal Union with Italy). Actually noone says that Fascist Italy opposed anti-semitism. As for your questions Routledge Atlas gives the answers (Wannsee conference, you can see the map with the excact route ending in Belsen-Bergen).Alexikoua (talk) 09:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stop mixing up things. As I said, the plans of the Wannsee conference are one thing; what happened on the ground is another. And Aigest may have a point: if "Albania", in 1942-44, from the perspective of the Germans, covered more than the present country, we need to be careful about the geographical scope of any statement sourced to contemporary documents. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:59, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the Wannsee conference was the one point, the other was that the deportation of 200 Jewish Albanian did happen [[17]], [[18]] according to one perspective.Alexikoua (talk) 11:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are messing things up Alex, the website references you are bringing talk about death toll in general, not about deportation at all. They could not be used to support Ruches at all. Since this article is about the Jews in Albania I took the liberty to cite parts of the well known historian Bernd Fischer article, (Fischer actually has also published the well known book Albania at war, 1939-1945 by Bernd Jürgen Fischer Edition illustrated Publisher C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1999 ISBN 1850655316, 9781850655312) in the book The case for Kosova: passage to independence by Anna Di Lellio Publisher Anthem Press, 2006 ISBN 1843312298, 9781843312291 The article is called "Is it true that Albanians collaborated with Nazi Germany during World War II? Page 70-76 Bernd Fischer:

Herman Neubacher, German Foreign Minister Joachim von Ribbentrop's special representative for Southeast Europe, employed some political skill in placing heavy emphasis on the nationalist card that did much to inform German-Albanian relations...Rather than the usual formula of appointing a military governor, the Germa left relations with the Albanians to the German ambassador in Tirana, who proclaimed Albania's independence, along with "relative" neutrality and "relative" sovereignty... Recognizing that the Italian occupation had made fascism unpopular, Neubacher refused to allow the Germans to construct any fascist organizations. The local press was virtually free from censorship and was permitted to publish Allied communiques. Neubacher refused to allow the recruitment of forced labor, at least from pre-war "old" Albania. He initially was even successful in resisting SS attempts to set up an Albanian SS division, arguing that such a military contingent was incompatible with an "independent" Albania. The Germans under Neubacher refrained, for the most part, from the hunting and reporting of Jews.The Germans also encouraged their first puppet prime minister to initiate a massive program of economic modernization....The albanologist Margaret Hasluck, who at time was advising the British in Cairo, proclaimed that "the lines of government policy would meet with our warm approval if we were not at war with the country whose armed forces now occupy Albania" ...Although Herman Neuchbaher initially succeeded in convincing Berlin that an indigenous SS division was incompatible with the notion of Albanian independence, by early 1944, as the Germans and their puppets became increasingly desperate, SS chief Heinrich Himmler received personal approval from Hitler for the creation of an SS division in Albania, with a mandate to protect ethnic Albania. The division was ultimately formed and took part in Kosova's most shameful episode during the war-the arrest and deportation of 281 Jews. But it never became a significant force..... Perhaps the most noted achievement of the Albanians during the war-the saving of hundred of Jews-can be described as passive resistance and non-cooperation, although these courageous acts often put Albanians at significant personal risk. This risk was increased after September 1944 when the German civil administration was replaced by the SS that actively pursued Jews throughout Albania. Religious tolerance in the west is often gauged in our time by the treatment of the Jews. While others in the Balkans-and obviously in the rest of Europe-institutionalized discrimination, participated passively or often enthusiastically in some of the most horrific crimes against humanity in relation to Jews, Albanians opened their country and often their homes to not only Albanian Jews but to foreign Jews as well, motivated in part by a strong tradition of hospitality as well as an attitude of religious tolerance. The result of this attitude and often personal sacrifice was that fully one hundred per cent of the Jews from "old" Albania were saved. It is estimated that even 60 per cent of the Jews from Kosova were saved, a remarkable achievement when seen in the light of regional comparison. In Yugoslavia, excluding Kosova, the rate of survival for Jews was a mere 18-28 per cent and in Greece no more than 14-22 per cent survived. Because Albania became known as a haven, there were perhaps eight times as many Jews in the country at the end of the was as there had been at the beginning-a remarkable development certainly unrivaled in the Balkans and in Europe as a whole.

How about including it in the article Alex? Aigest (talk) 14:57, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jews in Holocaust[edit]

History: (cur | prev) 06:02, 28 June 2010 Kits2 (talk | contribs) (5,595 bytes) (Jewish pop gain in WWII changed from a few hundred to over a thousand, also ONLY German occupied country to have a Jewish pop gain) (undo)

THEN (cur | prev) 23:32, 30 June 2010 Schrandit (talk | contribs) (5,585 bytes) (Undid revision 370545034 by Kits2 (talk) I'm pretty sure Albania was occupied by Italy) (undo)

Anyone who does not know that Albania was occupied by the Germans after Fascist Italy collapsed should not be rewriting Albanian Holocaust history.

And all reliable sources agree that Jewish pop in Albania after German surrender was over a thousand.

And if you disagree that Albania was the only country occupied by Germany with a Jewish population gain, name the country and provide a decent source for Jewish pop figures. 154.20.149.96 (talk) 06:39, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know much about Albania, our article on the subject says that Albania was a de jure independent Kingdom that co-operated with the Axis from 43-44 suggesting that it wasn't really occupied by Germany. But like I said, this is a corner of history I don't know that much about, if you've got something else I'm all ears. - Schrandit (talk) 09:43, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

>>Germany occupied Albania in September 1943, dropping paratroopers into Tirana before the Albanian guerrillas could take the capital, and the German army soon drove the guerrillas into the hills and to the south. Berlin subsequently announced it would recognize the independence of a neutral Albania and organized an Albanian government, police, and military<< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Resistance_of_World_War_II i.e. there was a period when the germans occupied the country before a puppet regime was put into place ... Many sources ignore the existence of a puppet Albanian government after the occupation e.g. >>Mussolini was overthrown in July 1943, and Italy formally withdrew from Albania in September. Seven German divisions took over the occupation from their Italian allies, however. Four of the divisions, totalling over 40,000 troops, began a winter offensive in November 1943 against the NLA in southern Albania...<< http://countrystudies.us/albania/151.htm

And there is still the question of why the article has been reverted to suggest a Jewish pop gain of a few hundred rather than over a thousand 154.20.149.96 (talk) 23:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for getting back. The current source that we have say that around 1,800 Jews fled into Albania. If you know of a better source with a different number please let us know. - Schrandit (talk) 01:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

YES >> around 1,800 Jews fled into Albania<< so WHY does wikipedia state: >Albania did end up with a few hundred more Jews than it had at the beginning of the war[3< ??

My suggested revision -- Please explain what is wrong with it:

>>Albania was only country occupied by the Nazis that had a significantly larger Jewish population in 1945 than in 1939. About two hundred native Jews and over a thousand refugees were provided with false documents, hidden when necessary, and generally treated as honored guests in a country whose population was roughly 60% Muslim.<<

And the footnote: >>Shoah Research Center;– Albania http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%205725.pdf The Jews of Albania during the Zogist and Second World War Periods: http://www.heimat.de/home/illyria/i.php3?s=e&p=2004_01_09_fisher_jews_in_albania and see also Norman H. Gershman's book Besa: Muslims Who Saved Jews in World War II -- for reviews etc http://www.amazon.com/Besa-Muslims-Saved-Jews-World/dp/0815609345 (all consulted 24 June 2010)<< Kits2 (talk) 18:29, 6 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ruches[edit]

Entered a "full quotation needed". This is snippet abuse. Saying that the jews were expelled from Vlore is incorrect. [19]. user:Alexikoua might have that book. --Sulmues (talk) 01:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think a quotation is somewhere up here on this page. It was removed because the wording was so vague it turned out to be useless. Re-reading the debate from last year, I come to the conclusion the Ruches claim must go out. The Ruches book, given its obvious propagandistic slant, is of dubious reliability at best. His account of this alleged incident is so vague and unspecific it leaves more questions open than it answers. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that something did happen in Vlorë: when? who was locally in charge? (Italians, Germans, local Albanian forces?) What was that alleged "Nuremberg Law" thing he mentions? What happened to the victims? All efforts at substantiating these claims from other sources, as documented above, led to lots of waffle but nothing concrete. As long as there are no more substantial sources to confirm this, it is useless for us. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:16, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further rewrite needed[edit]

I did some rewriting of the WWII section today, but now I checked also the source links given above to the yadvashem.org page [20] and the Fischer article [21], and it appears they have more detailed, and partly conflicting information. Most importantly, it appears that indeed the 400 who were sent to Belsen were from Kosovo, not Albania proper (Kosovo was officially part of Albania at the time, so it's understandable they would be counted as "Albanian" in some sources, but conditions in Kosovo and in "old" Albania were apparently markedly different). There are some other details too were Fischer and Yadvashem.org appear to agree with each other but diverge from the Routledge dictionary. This needs more rewriting. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

P.S.: the correct reference for the Fischer paper is: Fischer, Bernd J. (2007). "The Jews of Albania during the Zogist period and the Second World War". In Pettifer, James; Nazarko, Mentor (eds.). Strengthening religious tolerance for a secure civil society in Albania and the southern Balkans. Amsterdam: IOS. p. 95–101.. [22] is a mirrored version on some website. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:45, 8 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Albert Einstein[edit]

1900-1939

The assertion that "Albert Einstein took refuge in Albania for a few days in 1935 before continuing his journey to America with an Albanian passport" cannot be true, as he left Britain for the United States in 1933 and never returned to Europe. In March 1933 Einstein returned from a six month teaching assignment in Pasadena, United States, and being unable to return to Germany he stayed for short periods in Belgium and England, then emigrated to the United States in October 1933 (Albrecht Fölsing, Albert Einstein, pp. 659-678) He travelled as a Swiss citizen.[23] Esterson (talk) 14:00, 17 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sabbatai Zevi[edit]

There are many sources which say that Zevi was exiled in Albania (that he has been part of the history of jews in Albania). [1][2][3][4][5][6] In fact ,at that time Ulcinj or Ulqin wasn't part of Montenegro.However,I can give you many other references that say that Zevi was in Albania so he was part of the history of Jews in Albania.He wasn't born in Albania,but note that the Jews aren't native to Albania.Zevi lived a part of his life in Albania,so it is part of notable Jews in Albania.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:22, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As my edit summary should make clear, I am not contesting that Zevi was there. To be included in the "Notable Jews" section, however, his notability would have to have some relevance to his short exile in Ulcinj. This is not the case. He was not preaching there or working there, but was exiled there for three years and died there (at which time he had converted to islam). That is not notable. It is fine that his stay is mentioned in the History section, but he has nothing to do in the Notable Jews section.
As for your last edits, the content is fine, but you should be careful not to quote the source too closely, since it could cause concern about copyright violation. Also, your reference should give bibliographical information about the source you use (author, title etc.), not just a Google book search. Finally, it would be fine if you took some time to learn punctuation rules (use space after and not before comma and full stop). --T*U (talk) 09:49, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://books.google.al/books?id=ohTXJeMICaoC&pg=PA18&dq=number+of+jews+in+albania&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDgQ6AEwBWoVChMI6oz1kZzpxgIVgusUCh20LQxe#v=onepage&q=number%20of%20jews%20in%20albania&f=false
  2. ^ https://books.google.al/books?id=Mh6TdSlOqNAC&pg=PA71&dq=sabbatai+zevi+in+albania&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAGoVChMIzJfasaLpxgIVibwUCh2Ubw5K#v=onepage&q=sabbatai%20zevi%20in%20albania&f=false
  3. ^ https://books.google.al/books?id=7XkzdlMKTcgC&pg=PA200&dq=sabbatai+zevi+in+albania&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAWoVChMIzJfasaLpxgIVibwUCh2Ubw5K#v=onepage&q=sabbatai%20zevi%20in%20albania&f=false
  4. ^ https://books.google.al/books?id=dwICJoLCfhQC&pg=PT9&dq=sabbatai+zevi+in+albania&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBGoVChMIzJfasaLpxgIVibwUCh2Ubw5K#v=onepage&q=sabbatai%20zevi%20in%20albania&f=false
  5. ^ https://books.google.al/books?id=3qUvAQAAIAAJ&q=sabbatai+zevi+in+albania&dq=sabbatai+zevi+in+albania&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDkQ6AEwBWoVChMIzJfasaLpxgIVibwUCh2Ubw5K
  6. ^ https://books.google.al/books?id=o6TaBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA72&dq=sabbatai+zevi+in+albania&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCWoVChMIzJfasaLpxgIVibwUCh2Ubw5K#v=onepage&q=sabbatai%20zevi%20in%20albania&f=false

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Jews out of Albania proper[edit]

It appears that the fate of the Jews of the Albanian Kingdom (1943–44) should become part of this article, even if they lived outside Albania proper (in modern terms).Alexikoua (talk) 18:17, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:03, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notable Albanian Jews[edit]

Aleks Buda, an Albanian Jewish historian, should be added to the notable persons list. He was among the more important Albanian historians of the 20th century, and was of Jewish descent. 76.69.117.29 (talk) 02:38, 8 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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