Talk:Incarceration in the United States/Archive 2

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Intro is not NPOV

The intro to this article is non-NPOV, and reads like a position pamphlet for anti-incarceration activist groups. It is far from neutral, and does not meet Wikipedia standards for an important article like this. Here are some examples:

"state and local spending on incarceration has grown three times as much as spending on public education"

This is clearly a biased comparison. In the US, spending on public education is politically popular: even in Texas, traditionally a "red" state, 47% said the state spent too little on education, while just 10% said it spent too much (source). There's no more connection between prisons and education than any other budget item, so the purpose of this comparison is clearly to make prisons "look bad". A better comparison would be to government spending as a whole, or to overall US economic growth.

"The Vera Institute of Justice reported in 2015 that jails throughout the United States have become warehouses for the poor"

Vera is, as they proudly say on their website, an anti-incarceration activism group. They shouldn't be uncritically quoted, and especially not in an article intro. "Warehouses" is also a pejorative term, not a factual one. A better statement would be, given an appropriate source, "X% of people in American jails are confined because they are too poor to post bail, for an average of Y days" (or some such thing).

"Rehabilitation programs for offenders can be more cost effective than prison"

"Can be" is an extremely weak statement. A random person "can" win the lottery, but they almost certainly won't. If there's support in reliable sources for a stronger statement, eg. "The scientific consensus is that X rehabilitation program is Y% cheaper than prison, and reduces crime rates by Z%", that should be used instead. If not, this should be dropped as too vague.

"According to the Brennan Center for Justice, falling crime rates cannot be ascribed to mass incarceration"

The Brennan Center is, as it says on its own Wikipedia page, another left-wing activist group. "Mass incarceration" is another pejorative term. If reliable sources support a factual statement of this type, eg. "Scientific research shows that there is no link between the X% drop in rates crime from 1995 to 2015, and the increase in the prison population", that should be used instead. If not, this should be dropped as non-NPOV.

"Total U.S. incarceration by year"

This graph does not adjust for population, which increased by a factor of 3 between 1920 and 2015. Therefore, it makes the increase in incarceration look much more dramatic than it really is. It should be replaced with the graph immediately below it, which does properly adjust for population.

"the carceral state in the United States" (in the disambig)

"Carceral state" is another pejorative term, coined in 2015 by Ta-Nehisi Coates to advocate against prisons. It shouldn't be used in an intro, and certainly not in a disambiguation blurb (!), any more than American Civil War should start with 'This article is about the War of Northern Aggression. For the ... '.

Since the intro is the most visible part of the article, I've added an NPOV tag until these issues are fixed.

69.181.100.93 (talk) 21:46, 6 October 2017 (UTC)

Yet nearly all of those lines you quoted came from mainstream media reports (i.e., The New York Times, The Guardian, The Washington Post, etc) on incarceration in the US, and in cases involving studies from policy think tanks proper attribution is given so as not to be in Wikipedia's voice (e.g., "According to the Brennan Center for Justice..."). These are good sources for Wikipedia, and certainly qualify as WP:RS. If anything, the lede can be shortened by moving everything past the first paragraph to an "overview" section before the history section. Other than that, I don't see any consensus forming to remove the materials you object to for the aforementioned reasons. And btw, the term "carceral state" was used by professor Marie Gottschalk in her 2014 academic study Caught: The Prison State and the Lockdown of American Politics (Princeton University Press, 2014), so how did Ta-Nehisi Coates coin the term in 2015?--C.J. Griffin (talk) 22:35, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
The relatively high incarceration rates are extremely significant to the topic. If you have sources defending the system then please provide them and we can determine their weight in the literature. NPOV by the way does not mean that we are even-handed with every topic, but that we reflect facts and views according to their coverage in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 01:29, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

Removal of Solzhenitsyn as unauthoritative source

I'm sure much can be argued about Solzhenitsyn and The Gulag Archipelago, but something that can't is its lack of historiographical value. Altho I don't really doubt that "[t]he Soviet Union's incarceration rates from 1934 to 1953 were historically the world's highest for a modern age country", this book has no validity on that statement as it's a fictional memoir, and even if it wasn't, its claims about the prison population of the Gulag -- among other things -- have been debunked long ago regardless. In fact, it feels like it was namedropped on the article for the sake of publicity, which is corroborated by the extraneous mention of the author's Nobel award.

Still, rather than just edit it away, I figured I should best argue this here beforehand, seeing as political issues often cause friction even in Wikipedia.

2804:7F0:E085:FF5:E5E7:DB2C:217A:F087 (talk) 23:58, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Bold Merge of old Mass incarceration page

This is clearly the better maintained article, and that article was overwhelmingly focused on the United States. I moved some content from Mass_incarceration, to Incarceration_of_women_in_the_United_States but moved most of the content here. Shushugah (talk) 16:42, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I see an edit war occurred. I took great care during the merge to incorporate all content possible during the merge. This is an incredibly important issue, and Mass Incarceration is a good name, but the article simply reflected US issues and would benefit from the combined efforts of this and that article. If there are specific things in old Mass Incarceration page that I missed, PLEASE add them here. Shushugah (talk) 17:49, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Possible citations for how parental incarceration affects children

Cochran, J. C., Siennick, S. E., & Mears, D. P. (2018). Social exclusion and parental incarceration impacts on adolescents' networks and school engagement. Journal of Marriage and Family, 80, 478-498. doi:10.1111/jomf.12464


Foster, H., & Hagan, J. (2009). The mass incarceration of parents in america: Issues of race/ethnicity, collateral damage to children, and prisoner reentry. The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, 623, 179-194. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.libproxy.sdsu.edu/stable/40375895</ref>


Foster, H., & Hagan, J. (2015). Maternal and paternal imprisonment and children's social exclusion in young adulthood. Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, 105(2), 387-429. Retrieved from http://libproxy.sdsu.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.libproxy.sdsu.edu/docview/1879971340?accountid=13758


Geller, A., Cooper, C. E., Garfinkel, I., Schwartz-Soicher, O., & Mincy, R. B. (2012). Beyond absenteeism: Father incarceration and child development. Demography, 49(1), 49-76. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.libproxy.sdsu.edu/stable/41408219


Geller, A., Garfinkel, I., Cooper, C. E., & Mincy, R. B. (2009). Parental incarceration and child well‐being: Implications for urban families. Social Science Quarterly, 90, 1186-1202. doi:10.1111/j.1540-6237.2009.00653.x


Hagan, J., & Foster, H. (2012). Children of the american prison generation: Student and school spillover effects of incarcerating mothers. Law & Society Review, 46(1), 37-69. Retrieved from http://libproxy.sdsu.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.libproxy.sdsu.edu/docview/1331093976?accountid=13758


Kjellstrand, J. M., & Eddy, J. M. (2011). Mediators of the effect of parental incarceration on adolescent externalizing behaviors. Journal of Community Psychology, 39, 551-565. doi:10.1002/jcop.20451


Murray, J., & Farrington, D. P. (2005). Parental imprisonment: Effects on boys’ antisocial behaviour and delinquency through the life‐course. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 46, 1269-1278. doi:10.1111/j.1469-7610.2005.01433.x


Murray, J., & Farrington, D. P. (2008). Parental imprisonment: Long-lasting effects on boys' internalizing problems through the life course. Development and Psychopathology, 20(1), 273-290. doi:http://dx.doi.org.libproxy.sdsu.edu/10.1017/S0954579408000138


Rralnas (talk) 02:21, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Rralnas, this is a comprehensive list! Is there a specific claim or fact that you would like to insert? I would be happy to help, however I can Shushugah (talk) 13:19, 31 July 2018 (UTC)


Hi, Shushugah. Here is what I am thinking of adding to the effects of incarceration section. I want to pull out the info about the effects of parental incarceration on children and create its own subsection. Any feedback you have will be helpful.
Effects of parental incarceration on children
More than 2.7 million children in the United States have an incarcerated parent[1]. For every mother that is incarcerated in the United States there are about another ten people (children, grandparents, community, etc.) that are directly affected.[234] The effects of a parent’s incarceration on their children have been found as early as three years old[2]. Having an incarcerated parent affects children in "separation experiences and associated risks".[235] In a recent study, approximately 75% of the children reported symptoms including "depression, difficulty sleeping, concentration problems, and flashbacks about their mothers' crimes or arrests".[236] Studies have also shown other associated risks such as displaying more aggressive behavior[3] and less likelihood of graduating college[4]. Moreover, children with an incarcerated parent have been found to establish social networks with peers who had “slightly lower GPAs and [...] who engaged in more lying, skipping school, and fighting”[5].
The main way to mitigate the long term consequences of parental incarceration is graduating college[6]. Although graduating college has been shown to be a mediator, it is something that children simultaneously tend not to accomplish as a by-product of their parent’s incarceration[7].
Rralnas (talk) 03:12, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Cochran, J. C., Siennick, S. E., & Mears, D. P. (2018). Social exclusion and parental incarceration impacts on adolescents' networks and school engagement. Journal of Marriage and Family, 80, 478-498. doi:10.1111/jomf.12464
  2. ^ Geller, A., Garfinkel, I., Cooper, C. E., & Mincy, R. B. (2009). Parental incarceration and child well‐being: Implications for urban families. Social Science Quarterly, 90, 1186-1202. doi:10.1111/j.1540-6237.2009.00653.x
  3. ^ Geller, A., Cooper, C. E., Garfinkel, I., Schwartz-Soicher, O., & Mincy, R. B. (2012). Beyond absenteeism: Father incarceration and child development. Demography, 49(1), 49-76. Retrieved from http://www.jstor.org.libproxy.sdsu.edu/stable/41408219
  4. ^ Hagan, J., & Foster, H. (2012). Children of the american prison generation: Student and school spillover effects of incarcerating mothers. Law & Society Review, 46(1), 37-69. Retrieved from http://libproxy.sdsu.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.libproxy.sdsu.edu/docview/1331093976?accountid=13758
  5. ^ Cochran, J. C., Siennick, S. E., & Mears, D. P. (2018). Social exclusion and parental incarceration impacts on adolescents' networks and school engagement. Journal of Marriage and Family, 80, 478-498. doi:10.1111/jomf.12464
  6. ^ Foster, H., & Hagan, J. (2015). Maternal and paternal imprisonment and children's social exclusion in young adulthood. Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, 105(2), 387-429. Retrieved from http://libproxy.sdsu.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.libproxy.sdsu.edu/docview/1879971340?accountid=13758
  7. ^ Hagan, J., & Foster, H. (2012). Children of the american prison generation: Student and school spillover effects of incarcerating mothers. Law & Society Review, 46(1), 37-69. Retrieved from http://libproxy.sdsu.edu/login?url=https://search-proquest-com.libproxy.sdsu.edu/docview/1331093976?accountid=13758

Failed verification for Steve Levitt claim

In the "Overview" section the article says, "Conversely, Steven Levitt showed in a 2004 paper that at least 58% of the violent crime drop in the 1990s was due to incarceration."

I tried reading the paper pointed to by the inline citation, but I only found the following from the paper: "Using an estimate of the elasticity of crime with respect to punishment of .30 for homicide and violent crime and .20 for property crime, the increase in incarceration over the 1990s can account for a reduction in crime of approximately 12 percent for the first two categories and 8 percent for property crime, or about one-third of the observed decline in crime."

There's quite a big difference between "at least 58%" and "about one-third". I even tried searching the article for "58" and couldn't see where the 58% number came from, though I assume good faith. I'm going to tag the sentence with "Failed verification" for now, and maybe fix the claim later unless someone can explain to me where the 58% number comes from. Devinplatt (talk) 07:33, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

My suggested revision would be "Conversely, Steven Levitt estimated in a 2004 paper that about one-third of the violent crime drop in the 1990s was due to incarceration." Devinplatt (talk) 07:37, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Plans to expand effects of parental incarceration on children section

Hello all! I am an undergraduate student and as part of a Wiki Education assignment, I am developing plans to significantly expand the effects of parental incarceration on children article. I urge you to read the proposal in my sandbox. In it, I have identified three main components that will give Wikipedia users a better understanding of the situation children have to face when their parent(s) have been arrested. I would like to discuss the ways health and behavioral symptoms arise as a result of the early traumatic event, as well as what protections and measures are in place to preserve the parent-child relationship during separation. Both of those sections serve as background knowledge for my third section, existing law and public and social policy interventions (proven and unproven) that could improve the difficulties the children face.

I welcome constructive criticism and any discussion regarding my plans. Sgorantla (talk) 18:58, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

To me, that subject seems like one of international scope, as evidenced by one of your references ("An international human rights perspective"), so I question not whether the material should be added but whether it should be added to this U.S.-specific article. Arllaw (talk) 17:47, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Arllaw, thank you for your feedback. While I understand your point of the global nature of this issue, I would like for it to be in this US-specific article because the majority of the research I have compiled is specific to the US. For example, I intend to add a policy solutions section, and the policies referenced are strictly within the US. I would be happy to remove the international reference. I hope to hear from you. Sgorantla (talk) 02:43, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Great article and overall a topic that I feel like becomes ignored quickly since often the focus is on the person being incarcerated. I was shocked to read the statistic that one woman being incarcerated affects 10 people in her life. I really enjoyed how you broke down the policies by the four steps of incarceration, I think that was helpful than focusing on more general policies. I also like how you highlighted policies in different states, do you have any examples of policies implemented at the state level that have made it to other states/national? My main comments on this article are the neutrality of your submission, some content I'd like to see added, and it's placement in the section. I do enjoy your contribution but at times it reads more like an essay than a Wikipedia article. I feel like it would be good to go through and find claims without citations and hopefully connect it to a source/Author who made those claims. The one in particular I'm concerned about is when you use the words 'non-serious' to describe crimes. For content. I'd love to see more on children's criminal behavior and long-term life outcomes. Finally, for structure, it would be interesting to see if this could fit better under Social Effects, since it's very specific in it's own main header in this section. Overall, great contribution and glad you are bringing this topic to light! Wickersong (talk) 01:29, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi Sgorantla. I don't have any constructive criticisms right now, but I think you did a nice job and it's terrific that your class is contributing to Wikipedia. Thanks for adding to the sum of human knowledge! Devinplatt (talk) 05:53, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Peer Review

This is such an interesting topic and definitely an important aspect of incarceration! This article is very well written and I think you chose some great sources to use. I mentioned this several times in the peer review grading rubric, but I really love the way you used the four stages of arresting someone to guide the way you wrote about policy solutions. Maybe consider making those four stages their own separate subsections? I also think there are some sentences/phrases that could be re-worded so they are a little clearer and more impartial. It may be hard to find this, but pictures of the parent-friendly prison facilities would also be really interesting. Overall, this is a great article! Aminawilliams (talk) 03:51, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:20, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Cut and paste "Policy solutions" from "Effects"

It's its own thing. Maybe integrate with "Proposed solutions"? My browser is too feeble for such movement, need a hand. InedibleHulk (talk) 18:59, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Tone and Evidence

Citation The opening paragraph providing the fact, prison system "costs the United States 80 billion dollars a year"Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). lacks a citation. This figure is also not brought up again in the "Costs" section of the article. This creates a discrepancy and confusion. Clarifying where this figure came and what it is based on will add clarity. Additionally, I found the social effects section distracting. The information given regarding the cost of incarceration, the criticism o the US prison system, and the effects to unemployment to be answered in the subsequent sub-sections. Thus aggregating these details to their subsequent section could make information less repetitive and easier to follow.

Tone

In the prison population section stating "At the beginning of 2008, more than 1 in 100 adults in the United States were in prison or jail"Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page). does not carry an impartial tone. While interesting fact, it is distracting as the opening point of a paragraph. Perhaps breaking up ideas into the different subgroups of "who" makes up the prison population can make this section easier to follow. For example, expressing juvenile and jail/prison population numbers in a more direct manner in order to reflect the policy on neutrality. Cggmendez (talk) 08:15, 7 February 2019 (UTC)cggmendez

Though the article is very thorough and provides plenty of data, it also succumbs to conjecture in many instances. It is also rife with (mostly minors, but a few major) typographical errors. Sheldknight76 (talk) 11:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

It also needs more citations for its claims and some data points. Sheldknight76 (talk) 11:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Additional resources

WhisperToMe (talk) 01:21, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

LGBT v. LGBTQ

@Caitlin5326: Sadly, I feel a need to revert your changes of LGBT to LGBTQ, because they are not supported by the links and citations. Wikipedia asks us to write from a neutral point of view, citing credible sources. If you have other references that identify Q with LGBT, then a mention of that could be appropriate.

Thanks for your support of Wikipedia. DavidMCEddy (talk) 03:40, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

delete ref to Gun Violence in America?

@C.J. Griffin: Thanks for your contributions to this article.

Is there a reason you removed:

from the Books section?

Thanks, DavidMCEddy (talk) 00:22, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

A book on gun violence didn't seem to me to be relevant to the article. I was going to place it in alphabetical order along with another book that was added recently, but figured it might be better in an article on gun violence in the US and not incarceration. I haven't read the book. If it does indeed discuss incarceration at length then by all means it should be restored.--C.J. Griffin (talk) 00:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

New article about healthcare?

Hi all, I noticed that there was a health section in this article, but I feel like it could be more comprehensive (e.g. talking about the actual healthcare in the prison system and how it differs between different genders, and how it could impact people after they get out of prison). Because of this, I'm thinking of creating a new article to support this. If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to check out my user page, where I have started compiling sources for this! Angelalin79 (talk) 02:55, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

I am actually going to move my information over to prison healthcare. Feel free to check it out in the future! Angelalin79 (talk) 02:40, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

possible vandalism

@Sassysoso: Can you please help me understand your edits of 2021-04-10T08:48:21:

  • Why did you add "si" as a prefix for "{{Use mdy dates|date=May 2020}}" in "si{{Use mdy dates|date=May 2020}}"? It looks like either an inadvertent typo or blatant vandalism to me. I'm reverting it.
  • Do you have a reference for your addition, "Many African American's, Hispanic American's, Sicilians American's and other non-White Americans were harshly effected by this"? This seems likely to me from what I know of history. However, this entire paragraph could use a reference, especially the claim that, "At this time there was an increase in crime": There is substantive documentation that the increase in incarcerations between 1975 and 2000 were driven by changes in the editorial policies of the mainstream media to focus on the police blotter. The result is the US is among the the world's largest jailers if not the largest, with people of color and poor people being the primary victims. See United States incarceration rate#Editorial policies of major media.

DavidMCEddy (talk) 12:12, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

My edit was not vandalism but an accidental typo I am so sorry for the inconvenience. I was referring to the increase in crack down on the Mafia in this period which was particularly Sicilian American. I hope all is well thank you!
Sassysoso (talk) 12:24, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for having added a reference. DavidMCEddy (talk) 12:56, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Text copied from another article

@Diannaa: Thanks for clarifying that the new section on "Role of the media" was copied (actually with some edits) United States incarceration rate.

What's the proper way to annotate such copying?

FYI, I remember having seen something discussing such copying, but I don't remember where I saw it. AND if my memory is correct, it said that a primary original author of material copied like that didn't need to worry about rules regarding plagiarism. If you check, I think you can confirm that I added the section on "Editorial policies of major media" to the article you cited on United States incarceration rate (and I did so before this current article included this incarceration rate plot).

FYI2: I've actually updated that plot of the incarceration rate. See File:U.S. incarceration rate since 1925.svg. I have not included it in this article, because I felt I'd need to check to make sure the update didn't conflict with something in the description, and I have so far not found the time to do that. Of course, I'd be happy if someone else, who knows this article better than I do, did that.

FYI3: I'm currently developing an irregular series of documentary interviews on Wikiversity:Category:Media reform to improve democracy. The first episode was produced Feb. 23. The second is scheduled for April 29. I hope to follow that with an interview of some leading expert on the media and incarcerations, but I haven't contacted anyone yet on that. So much to do, so little time.

Thanks again. DavidMCEddy (talk) 17:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

The place where you heard the rule about copying within Wikipedia is on your own talk page, here and here. It's true that if you are copying your own prose, attribution is technically not required. The volume of copyright reports to be checked each day precludes me from reviewing the edit history of each such case to see who added the content, so occasionally people get irrelevant notices. But I didn't notify you this time - I simply added the attribution and left it at that.— Diannaa (talk) 17:34, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
The Persistence of Memory. Thanks again, DavidMCEddy (talk) 18:22, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Constipation

@Bigbob2300: If you want to be taken seriously in changing "infrastructure" to "infrastructure, and constipation", you need to provide a reference: If this is NOT vandalism, please provide a reference.

Otherwise, you can get a reputation for Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. If you only do it a few times, it's not a problem. If someone notices a patter, your account can be blocked at least temporarily. DavidMCEddy (talk) 23:50, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

We should also add foster care and poverty and homelessness due to many kids in foster care end up in jail and homeless later on.(64.63.171.234 (talk) 18:48, 31 October 2021 (UTC))

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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Wiki Education assignment: Global Poverty and Practice

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Mass Incarceration and it’s Effects

Mass incarceration is a phenomena that has long had a presence in the United States. Although many are affected by mass incarceration, the group that is most severely affected is the African American population. Many policies that lead to this mass incarceration were initiated by President Nixon during the tough on crime era, which was part of the “war on drugs” in the United States. Although these laws were against crimes that anybody could commit, government law enforcement agencies chose to focus the enforcement of these laws in areas with high African American populations, and target African Americans in general. Due to this racism fueled focus on arresting African Americans, particularly young African American males for these types of crime, the idea and fact of mass incarceration of African Americans was created.

The result of this mass incarceration was even more damaging. Members of the general public outside of the prison system detach themselves from prisoners, looking at themselves as law-abiding citizens and the individuals inside of the prisons as criminals, or monsters. Due to the prisons being filled up with African Americans, this led the general public to draw conclusions that since the majority of the prisoners are African Americans, this can only mean that the majority of African Americans are criminals.

This ideology founded on racial profiling of African Americans only reinforced racism in America further. Not only was the general public affected by now viewing many African Americans as criminals, new generations of police officers also target African Americans due to the false belief that they are more likely to be criminals, all founded by the mass incarceration of African Americans. Mass incarceration and the results of mass incarceration have proved the government's ability to be racist within the standard of the law and profit from oppression. 192.112.253.19 (talk) 18:06, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

As it says at the top of the talk page: "this is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Incarceration in the United States article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject." Refer to Wikipedia:SOAPBOX and Wikipedia:NOTFORUM. You may only express your opinions if it is directly related to the improvement of Wikipedia. Otherwise, it may be subject to removal. Untitled.docx (she/her) 🗩 02:49, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2023 and 19 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Macybartlett (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Smg02.

— Assignment last updated by Ozioma00 (talk) 21:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

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