Talk:International recognition of the State of Palestine

140

Would be good to compare the list mentioned at:

• Lederer, Edith M. (2024-04-03). "Palestinians seek full UN membership again, but US is almost certain to block it for a second time". AP News.

…to the list at this article. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not 140 of 193 UN members. It's 138 of 193 UN members plus 2 non-UN members (Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Vatican City) Please, correct it. Fernan860 (talk) 15:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 April 2024

Since Barbados has recognised Palestine today, these changes should be made.

Change " As of 4 April 2024, 140[clarification needed] of the 193 United Nations (UN) member states have recognized the State of Palestine." to " As of 19 April 2024, 141 of the 193 United Nations (UN) member states have recognized the State of Palestine."

And Barbados should be removed from the "No diplomatic recognition" table, and added to the "Diplomatic recognitions > UN members states" table with a line inserted like this: 139 Barbados 19 April 2023 Yes CARICOM, OAS

Sources: https://gisbarbados.gov.bb/blog/barbados-officially-recognises-palestine-as-a-state/ https://starcomnetwork.net/blog/2024/04/19/barbados-to-recognize-palestine/ Jlayne001 (talk) 01:33, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Done. Semsûrî (talk) 08:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have recounted the countries, and shouldn't it be "As of 19 April 2024, 139 of the 193 United Nations (UN) member states have recognized the State of Palestine."? The Holy See and SADR aren't even UN members. Underdwarf58 (talk) 13:26, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

See this discussion, some disparity in the sources (pre-Barbados) as to whether it was 139 or 140. Selfstudier (talk) 17:04, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Totally agree. I think the next UN link: https://web.archive.org/web/20180927134802/http://palestineun.org/about-palestine/diplomatic-relations is the best source. It can be seen that in 2018 there were 137 UN States (including Vatican City/Holy See). After the recognition of Colombia, Saint Kitts and Nevis and now, Barbados (which do not appear on that UN list because it is not updated), there are 140 UN States (139 of the 193 full members plus Vatican City/Holy See)

By example, The New York Times says " 138 countries and the Holy See have recognized the State of Palestine." (before Barbados' recognition) (see https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/18/world/middleeast/palestinian-statehood-un-veto.html)

Other sources (before Barbados' recognition): https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-67231803https://www.visualcapitalist.com/recognition-of-palestine-map/ Fernan860 (talk) 20:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, Here it cites Mansour saying "Mansour said these matters are urgent, following a veto by the US on a resolution to accept the State of Palestine as a full member of the United Nations. "When they vote on these resolutions they recognise the rights of the Palestinians, but we are asking them to recognise the State of Palestine as an existing reality.” He said to date, 141 countries have recognised Palestine as an independent state - Barbados has recently announced plans to officially recognise the State of Palestine." Selfstudier (talk) 18:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Mexico recognized Palestine

When I searched "Why Mexico has yet to recognize Palestine," sources pop up saying that Mexico does recognize Palestine. Here's one article: https://jacobin.com/2023/07/mexico-amlo-israel-palestine-embassy-diplomacy . Correditor56 (talk) 05:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

"Recuerda que a pesar de que nuestro país mantiene relaciones diplomáticas con Palestina, no ha reconocido un Estado palestino y sólo se han firmado algunos acuerdos;" - Coordinación de Comunicación Social - INICIO - Senado. 26 July 2021 Sean.hoyland (talk) 05:59, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the recognition confusion re Mexico is more recent than that. It might be that Mansour in the section above is including Mexico in the 141 count, idk. Selfstudier (talk) 10:13, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

As of October 2023, Mexico did not recognize Palestine[2]. Semsûrî (talk) 10:40, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

This piece in the Jacobin contradicts that (btw that Telediario source says "Whether Echeverría Álvarez underestimated or unaware of the power of the Jewish community within the financial sector, in Hollywood and in the media in the United States,.... which is usually considered as an antisemitic trope).

We still need to figure out the 140/141 discrepancy, whether it be Mexico or something else. Selfstudier (talk) 10:56, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Mansour does not explicitly state 141 "UN members" which could mean he includes the Holy See? Jamaica is counted as 140th UN member here[3]. Semsûrî (talk) 11:04, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of discrepancy, there's also some ambiguity surrounding Malta as they are planning on recognizing Palestine (again?).[4] Semsûrî (talk) 11:07, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Some of the confusion may stem from the difference between recognisig a state (recognising its sovereignty) and recognising a government (accepting it as legitimate, i.e., maintaining diplomatic relations). Vide Afghanistan for instance which is recognised as a state by nearly all countries of the world, but its current government is recognised only partially. Not all journalists may understand the difference, either. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:19, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

That's true but if you check the other discussion, there are several RS also using the higher figure. Selfstudier (talk) 11:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I need some help. I edited the Arabic version of this article by adding Mexico with the same references but some user named Mystrixo reverted it by saying to me that "Mexico hasn't officialy recognized Palestine yet. What was said about the matter was from the Palestinian side only". Can anyone please convince him? Underdwarf58 (talk) 06:24, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Needs to be sorted out there, even though the annex to the UN letter includes it (see the section 140/141? below), so there is a case for including it, there is arguably a case for excluding it. It isn't a requirement for Mexico to officially announce it, some countries don't do that but it seems to me that if Mexico has allowed SoP to establish an embassy (so the ambassadors credentials have been accepted) then that is some sort of recognition even if backhanded (see the Jacobin article). Selfstudier (talk) 10:37, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Trinidad & Tobago recognition of Palestine yesterday

List of countries recognizing Palestine should be extended, as of yesterday (May 2 2024) to Trinidad and Tobago, source: https://foreign.gov.tt/resources/news/recognition-by-trinidad-and-tobago-of-the-state-of-palestine/ Aintgotrhythm (talk) 12:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

We should update this article because recently they recognise Palestine as a sovereign state. Qhairun (talk) 12:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

140/141?

This 9 April letter lists 140 countries, including Mexico and the Holy See. The latter is an observer state, so 139 if we include Mexico.

Adding Barbados and Trinidad and Tobago since then gives 141.

Can we agree on this figure? Selfstudier (talk) 11:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Can you recheck the link? It sends me to an error page. Semsûrî (talk) 11:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

OK, cannot go to it directly, you can instead reach it via https://undocs.org/en/A/78/846. Selfstudier (talk) 11:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Well 141 it is. Semsûrî (talk) 12:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Give it a day or two, see if anyone else has anything to add. Selfstudier (talk) 12:17, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

The document should be enough to add Mexico to the list. Semsûrî (talk) 12:27, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@Semsûrî If Mexico is added to the table of countries that recognise Palestine, it must be removed from the table of countries that do not recognise it. Or, am I missing something? — kashmīrī ^TALK 12:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

OK, disregard, you've self reverted now. — kashmīrī ^TALK 12:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Why did you remove the reference that showcased that diplomatic relations existed between Mexico and Palestine? Semsûrî (talk) 12:38, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Can someone fact check whether or not Mexico recognised Palestine as a sovereign state? Qhairun (talk) 13:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Edit warring

@Semsûrî: You've violated the 1RR restriction by making several reverts today:

• [5]
• [6]
• [7]

Please self-revert at the very least to the edit in which I correctly formatted the large table in the "No diplomatic recognition" section. This was quite a lot of time and effort, and your revert only to add Mexico (which was additionally a controversial edit on your part) was quite disruptive. Thanks. — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:46, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Adding Mexico back to the non-recognition list was not deliberate. In one of your edits, you (perhaps accidently) removed the sre.gob.mx from the Diplomatic recognitions-list which was my issue. Can you link to the version you want the non-recognition list to be at? Semsûrî (talk) 17:00, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I might have made a minor mistake, and frankly I don't care that much whether Mexico is in or out at the moment. What I'd like is to get the whole formatting and templates back, like in this version: [8] Thanks! — kashmīrī ^TALK 17:51, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Bahamas as well

https://english.wafa.ps/Pages/Details/143850 Selfstudier (talk) 08:37, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

EU Member States Recognition Initiative May 21st

Perhaps worth mentioning in the non-recognition infoboxes for Ireland, Spain, Malta and Slovenia for now, before adding them to the recognising nations when the announcement is formally made? Culloty82 (talk) 11:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Nah, best to wait until they actually do it. Selfstudier (talk) 11:42, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

This source says Slovenia will do it in June. Selfstudier (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

More info to keep you guys updated

Underdwarf58 (talk) 13:56, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Ireland confirmed: https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-to-officially-recognise-state-of-palestine/a128328868.html Eray08yigit (talk) 22:40, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Spain as well as two unidentified EU member states (most likely not Slovenia yet) are confirmed too.

Underdwarf58 (talk) 00:47, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Norway confirmed: https://www.reuters.com/world/norway-recognise-palestinian-state-nrk-aftenposten-report-2024-05-22/ Eray08yigit (talk) 07:01, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure, here’s the revised text with the primary sources included:

---

I prefer working with primary sources rather than press releases. Could we please change the sources in the article accordingly?

The original press release from the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs: [Norway Recognises Palestine as a State](https://www.regjeringen.no/en/aktuelt/norway-recognises-palestine-as-a-state/id3040194/)

The original press release from the Irish Ministry of Foreign Affairs: [Tánaiste Micheál Martin's Remarks on Palestinian Statehood](https://www.gov.ie/en/speech/7f450-tanaiste-micheal-martins-remarks-on-palestinian-statehood/)

The Spanish Ministry of Foreign Affairs has not yet published anything.

---

Feel free to let me know if you need any further modifications or additional information. 91.25.188.242 (talk) 10:14, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

References

May 10th 2024 UN vote

additional UN rights given by the resolution are noted here. https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/1149596 At this time, I haven't been able to identify the voting record, but imagine that will be available on the UN's website shortly. Gregory5796 (talk) 16:01, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Pic here, just for interest Selfstudier (talk) 16:06, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The votes Selfstudier (talk) 19:04, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I have uploaded an svg file for use later:

File:Palestine UN Membership Bid 2024.svg Underdwarf58 (talk) 04:35, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. There is one small mistake. DR Congo was absent (blue). 91.25.188.242 (talk) 09:19, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Without DR Congo, the number of those who voted in favor would be 142 instead of 143. Underdwarf58 (talk) 11:36, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

@Underdwarf58: DRC indeed was absent during voting[9], yet it's listed as having voted in favour! [10] — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:16, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

I just counted – Al Jazeera made a mistake and incorrectly listed DRC as voting in favour, bringing the number of countries on its list to 144 (!). @Underdwarf58, would you remove DRC from your map please?

BTW, this is just another reminder that we should never treat so-called reliable sources as God. — kashmīrī ^TALK 16:25, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

What do you think about integrating the map into the section "Timeline of Palestine in the United Nations"? 91.25.188.242 (talk) 16:58, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Non EC editors are permitted to make edit requests, is that a request? Selfstudier (talk) 17:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't mind into which category you place it. I am not an editor. It is what it is: a proposal for consideration. 2A02:3035:609:D22B:8092:D87:23EA:EE44 (talk) 17:11, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Equatorial Guinea

Hi @Kashmiri, This document[11] from 2019 indicates diplomatic relations as the Equatorial Guinean ambassador in Cairo is accredited to "Palestine". Perhaps Palestine is absent from your 2021 document because it simply didn't have an ambassador stationed there at the time. Semsûrî (talk) 21:58, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

@Semsûrî, that's interesting. Does Concurrencia denote other countries that the given ambassador is accredited to? Or the given embassy's coverage area e.g. for visa/consular services?

The document I linked, from 2021,[12] lists all the missions accredited to EG, including those outside of the country (in fact, they are the majority given EG's size).

It's a tricky situation. Best would be to email their MFA and enquire I assume. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

From the looks of it, yes. Concurrencia does denote other countries that the given ambassador is accredited to. The previous reference he put that you undid is about the presentation of credentials which does mean that Equatorial Guinea and Palestine maintain formal diplomatic relations. Maybe the document that you linked from 2021 doesn't include Palestine because none of their missions have accredited EG yet. Underdwarf58 (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

References

NORWEGIAN RECOGNITION OF THE STATE OF PALESTINE (22.05.24) Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 May 2024

CHANGE Norway's position from "do not recognize" do "recognize". Per a government press conference at the 22nd of May 2024, at 08:30 (ETC +1), Prime minister Gahr Støre announced the government will formally recognize the state of Palestine, starting on tuesday the 28th of May 2024.

SOURCE: https://www.nrk.no/urix/noreg-anerkjenner-palestina-1.16891635 Argonikon (talk) 06:44, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

They have recognized it but it will take affect on 28 May as the article states. Semsûrî (talk) 06:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Here the Independent saying 143, before the new three recognize officially so that is the 146 we have in the article, I guess, jumping the gun a little bit, but OK. Selfstudier (talk) 10:28, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 May 2024

Hi,

Change map of recognition. Remove Czech Republic from list of state which recognize Palestina as a state.

According to Ministry of Foreign Affairs in the Czech Republic. Czech Republic doesn't recognize Palestine as a state. The map is wrong.

Source: https://mzv.gov.cz/jnp/cz/zahranicni_vztahy/vyrocni_zpravy_a_dokumenty/poskytnute_informace/postoj_cr_drive_csfr_a_cssr_k_uznani.html

Czech: "K uznání palestinského státu ze strany ČR tak prozatím nedošlo" Translation: "So far, there has been no recognition of the Palestinian state by the Czech Republic" Jirik Kolarik (talk) 09:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll add this in the hope that it provides a bit more context and sourcing for the request.

The International Criminal Court case ICC-01/18 "Decision on the ‘Prosecution request pursuant to article 19(3) for a ruling on the Court’s territorial jurisdiction in Palestine’ included Amicus curiae submissions. The Czech Republic provided a submission of observations (ICC-01/18-69 13-03-2020 1/10 NM PT) on 12 March 2020. It provides some clarity on the Czech Republic's position (which is a bit confusing because of history, the fact that they have diplomatic relations with the State of Palestine and numerous sources reporting that Czech Republic has recognized Palestine). The Czech Republic's submission is also discussed in the ICC pre-trial chamber's determination report (ICC-01/18-143 05-02-2021 1/60 EC PT) from 5 February 2021. Sean.hoyland (talk) 10:25, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Interesting. The last document you linked says: 101. The Chamber notes that, in the context of the present proceedings, seven States Parties submitted observations on the Prosecutor’s Request as amici curiae thereby arguing that Palestine cannot be considered a State for the purposes of article 12(2)(a) of the Statute, namely the Czech Republic, Austria, Australia, Hungary, Germany, Brazil and Uganda. However, it should be noted that these States remained silent during the accession process and that none of them challenged Palestine’s accession before the Assembly of State Parties at that time or later. (page 45). That would also mean that of our recognition list, also Brazil, Hungary and Uganda don't recognise Palestine as a state. Do we have any sources about these countries?

Of note, it's amusing how the Czech MFA, in the link provided by the OP, struggles to explain how a non-country can have a diplomatically recognised embassy in Prague. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:09, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

There is a lot of political posturing going on there and trying, rather unsuccessfully, to make use of the distinction between a State and a State Party. Selfstudier (talk) 11:18, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Example, Brazil voted for 67/19 and for the application to join UNESCO (there is also a correlation between governments of the right and what they say compared to when they are run by the left). Selfstudier (talk) 11:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Re Brazil, it seems Lula recognised Palestine in 2010, and while Bolsonaro was pro-Israeli in foreign policy, he doesn't appear to have reversed the decision. Culloty82 (talk) 11:36, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

It all perhaps boils down to the one key feature of sovereignty, viz. freedom to recognise the sovereignty of others at will. This is also, incidentally, something that many Wikipedia editors did not seem to grasp. A sovereign country is free to recognise whomever they wish as its equal (i.e., similarly sovereign), and it's this fact that decides on whether a polity can be called sovereign, rather than its membership in international organisations.

That also means that one government in a country is free to recognise someone's sovereignty, and the next is free to say they don't recognise one (of course, each act comes with administrative and political costs).

How do we approach this on Wiki, when the Czechoslovak government recognised Palestine and one of subsequent governments refused to do that? I don't know. — kashmīrī ^TALK 11:49, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

It's quite unusual for state recognition to be reversed. The Derecognition of States "argues that state derecognition is a highly controversial and unstable practice that has less to do with the unfulfillment of the conditions of statehood by the claimant than with the advancement of the self-interest of the former base state and derecognizing state. The derecognition of states is not a rule; rather, it is an exception in international diplomacy, driven by political expediency and is incompatible with original rationales for granting recognition."

Interestingly, he analyzes Taiwan, Western Sahara, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Kosovo but not Palestine. Selfstudier (talk) 11:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't quite see how you can have derecognition and an embassy at the same time, tbh although they inherited the situation as successor. There must be sources somewhere explaining the position, which seems a bit contradictory. I think we will have to just go by reliable sources and I think that the Czech government is not necessarily a reliable source in this particular case. Selfstudier (talk) 12:30, 22 May 2024 (UTC)