Talk:Jaunpuri dialect (Garhwal)

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Requested move 24 September 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:05, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

– The current title is heavy. Besides, people don't necessarily agree with caling there language as dialect of Garhwali. It is recorded separately in PLSI Languages of Uttarakhand as well as in India Language Census. Nik9hil (talk) 18:19, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 19:46, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This might not be uncontroversial as it's asserting a primary topic. I'm assuming you're also proposing moving Jaunpuri to Jaunpuri (disambiguation)? -Kj cheetham (talk) 18:38, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, this is clearly not a primary topic. Nik9hil, do we have any reliable sources that say this is not a dialect, or that its speakers perceive it as a separate language? I don't have the PLSI around now, but I don't recall reading in the little chapter on Jaunpuri anything that substantiates the claim it's a separate language, and the PLSI isn't so reliable that you can take everything on their authority. The only concrete thing I've seen is the SIL sociolinguistic survey cited in our article, which found that Jaunpuri shares 3/4 of its basic vocabulary with neighbouring Garhwali varieties, and that's the sort of number you would expect for dialects, not separate languages. Of course, word counts are not the end all of dialect comparisons, but in the absence of anything else... And as for the census, you're probably referring to the fact that it's got a "mother tongue" category called "Jaunsari/Jaunpuri". As far as I'm able to tell this simply confuses this dialect with the similarly named neighbour Jaunsari. That wouldn't be an oddity you would be completely surprised to see from the census authorities. And anyway, the people themselves apparently identify their language as Garhwali – in the 2011 census returns for Tehri Garhwal, the only subdistricts with meaningful figures under this category is Dhanaulti, and even there that's only 8%, with 89% still giving their language as Garhwali. – Uanfala (talk) 22:47, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ping Uanfala Strong Support Jaunpuri is a Western Pahari language (by Grierson; no one since has refuted that claim & even PLSI agrees with this classification). Garhwali is a Central Pahari language. So enough differences? Let us not even talk about Census here for you in past have simply labelled it as unreliable due to various reasons (Therefore I ain't going to give any explanation for all those figures from Census now). And no, I didn't confuse it with Jaunsari the way Census does or the whatever way you are claiming. As for the primary topic, many people simply search Jaunpuri & get disappointed by seeing raga as result. Maybe change it to Jaunpuri language then? But not this huge title. Nik9hil (talk) 06:13, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nik9hil, do you have a reference for Grierson treating Jaunpuri as a Western Pahari variety? The little I've seen (say, vol.9, pt.4, p. 280) seems to suggest his survey did not cover the area where Jaunpuri is spoken. The current title of the article is long because of the need for disambiguation, as there are two language varieties with the same name, both commonly if not universally referred to as dialects. We don't currently have a separate article about the Jaunpuri dialect of Uttar Pradesh, but it's at least as prominent as the one of Garhwal. – Uanfala (talk) 12:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
For the time being, label the page as Jaunpuri (Garhwal). Let me collect of resources for the same. Nik9hil (talk) 08:05, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The dialect article is not primary. I have cleaned up the disambiguation page. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:26, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Uanfala:, @Nik9hil:. Regarding that clean up, there's a problem you may wish to solve. There was an inappropriate entry with redlink "Jaunpuri dialect (Varanasi), a dialect of Bhojpuri spoken in eastern Uttar Pradesh" I'm happy for that to be restored in due course but at the moment that's not what article Bhojpuri language says. That redlink does not occur at Bhojpuri language and the article doesn't mention "Jaunpuri dialect". I see Uanfala's edit summary on the disambiguation page, but these changes need to be made at the target article to justify a disambiguation page entry. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:33, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Oh, if you'd like to resolve this problem, go ahead. The source I referred to in my edit summary last year, is most likely: ***Grierson, George A. (1903). Linguistic Survey of India. Vol. V, Part 2, Indo-Aryan family. Eastern group. Specimens of the Bihārī and Oriyā languages. Calcutta: Office of the Superintendent of Government Printing, India.
      You can either create an article at Jaunpuri dialect (Varanasi) (or maybe Jaunpuri dialect (Bjojpuri)?) or expand Bhojpuri language#Dialects. I've been meaning to do the latter, but never had the time, and probably won't get around to any time soon. The dialect is most likely transitional to Awadhi though. – Uanfala (talk) 12:38, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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