Talk:Karaite Judaism/Archive 3

Karaites and the Holocaust

There is a discussion of this issue and some references here: http://www.karaite-korner.org/holocaust.htm Kmorrow (talk) 15:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

a thought

In the article it is stated: "When interpreting scripture Karaites strive to adhere to the p'shat (plain meaning) of the text. This is in contrast to Rabbinical Judiasm, which employs the methods of p'shat, remez, drash, and sod." I think it would be informative and helpful if someone would add English meanings for remez, drash, and sod. I myself have no idea what they mean. Cheers.

As a result of this note, I see definitions have been added in. I'm not sure this is actually the best approach. In light of that, I've started a little article idea at User:TShilo12/Peirush, to cover this stuff (in its current state it's more sandbox or sand-in-the-eye material than even stubworthy). I don't think it's appropriate to cover it in Karaite Judaism, and the Judaism article itself is getting rather large. That said, I'm not really sure what to call the article even if it were just a stub. I'm thinking Jewish exegesis or Exegesis in Judaism perhaps. Anyone willing to help out? Tomer ^TALK 21:28, May 6, 2005 (UTC)

Karaite Judaism and Mysticism

I think improvement may be made if there were a section added on the Karaite views of mysticism and the methods of philosophical speculation which have been employed in the past and present. For instance, the Rabbinites have developed the Kabbalah based on their encounters with emanationist philosophy. Has there been any parallel in the Karaite fold or, perhaps, have certain Karaites adopted Kabbalistic practice?

Yogensha 01:32, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If you're qualified to add such a section, please do so! Kol hakavod, -t Tomer ^TALK 07:55, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

I don't have the experience or knowledge of Karaite Judaism to do so. I meant that knowledgeable Karaim would do well to add such a section, or at least provide a simple explanation on the Karaite position. Yogensha 11:49, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Karaite Judaism rejects the authority of any post-Biblical litterature, such as Talmud, the New testament or Sefer Zohar as human creations. Discussion and study of the scriptures are a natural part of Judaism, but no rabbinical text may be elevated on the same level or above the Torah and Tanach text. Kabbalah is based on mystical speculation on the Torah text and according to the Karaite Jewish view it is non-Biblical and thus automatically rejected.

More Information on Karaite Halakha and Practices

I think this article would be drastically improved if anyone could add relevant information concerning some of the more important Karaite practices and observances which aren't explicitly mentioned in the material we have today, by the World Karaite Movement or this article. First and foremost, I have been unable to find any information on a traditional Karaite Siddur, and the sections at which they are to make their prostrations. I have also been unable to find any traditional blessings, though I've heard them mentioned by Karaites in some of their books on the topic. For instance, in "An Introduction to Karaite Judaism," by the al-Qirqisani foundation, many blessings over such things as tzitzit are mentioned, but no source is provided for them. They seem to be adapted from the Rabbinic customs, actually. Kiddush and Havdala is also mentioned by them, but nothing on how they are performed or where more information can be found on it. Explanations or illustrations of a coherent system of Halakha is not to be found, though I have seen it mentioned in various places. Clarification on these matters by Karaites or those knowledgeable about the practice would be very helpful. [They reference their siddur which contains these prayers. If I had an email address for you I would be happy to send you a Karaite Kiddush and Havdalah service]--Yogensha

Whoever wrote that they would send me the Karaite Kiddush and Havdalah services, my email address is ivrit@NOMAILmissvalley.comNOMAIL

Yogensha 17:32, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

• I have a copy of the American Siddur, which is basically an abbrieviated version of the siddur used in Israel. Once I get home, I'll see about writing some information about it. Their Shabbat Siddur is much different than traditional (Rabbinic) Shabbat siddurim, I don't think any of it has been borrowed from the Rabbinic siddur. However, I'll read through it again and see if I notice any similarities.--Josiah 19:57, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

• • Also, while many of the materials from the Al-Qirqisani foundation are helpful, I'd take them with a grain of salt. "Hakham Qanai" is not recongized by any of the Karaite Hakhamim in Israel, in fact, when I had inquired R. Dabah of Jerusalem he told me that Avraham Qanai had not been in contact with them since the 80's, and had not heard that Avraham Qanai was a Hakham or Rabbi.--Josiah 20:00, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

• {Note from Eliezer ben Efraim haKohen "EbEhK": The Karaite Jews of America "KJA" has a shabbat siddur that sets forth the various prostrations. This is described in much more detail in co-author Hakham Yosef Pesah's book "An Introduction to Karaite Judaism: History, Theology, Custom & Practice."

• ["EbEhK" note: This is incorrect. In the Karaite Prayerbook Edited by Nehemia Gordon in consultation with R' Moshe Dabah based on the 1870 Firkovich Edition - The blessing translated in english states:Blessed be you YHWH our God, King of the universe, who has sanctified with his commandments to don four corners with tzitzit, Amen. " This mitzvot cannot be found in TaNaKh word for word but the Chumash's actual words seem close enough: See Bemidbar (Numbers) 15.38)

[Note by EbEhK "An Introduction to Karaite Judaism: History, Practice, Theology and Custom" is co-authored by Hakham Yosef Pessah see page 239. I therefore find the discussion regarding Mr. Qanai as being rendered moot, not to mention Lashon Harah.]

There is a huge difference between mentioning that a person is being dishonest and spreading Lashon Hara. If a Messianic was pretending that he had recieved schmica from Yeshiva University, and had not, would it be Lashon Hara to mention that he hadn't? I think not.--Josiah 04:27, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

I am convinced Avraham Qanai is honest because I've also heard, from another individual, the same information on his Wikipedia biography that describes how he became Hakham. This information still needs to be referenced. I would appreciate if anyone can guide me in the direction of the external link, because I'm trying to verify it with a source Wikipedia would consider reputable. --AFriedman (talk) 21:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't confuse "Internet Karaites" with other Karaites

Yogensha,

I think you may be confusing "Internet Karaites" with Karaites who live in Karaite communities, attend synagogue services, etc. in your additions to this article. Since the Golden Age of Karaism, and especially since the Arab persecutions after 1948 and the Lavon Affair, most Karaites have been somewhat supsicous of outsiders, with good reason. Until this past year, the ruling body of Karaites in Israel, called the UKJ - "Universal Karaite Judaism" would not even consider conversions. This is because for a long time Egyptian Karaites would not perform conversions. In fact, there are still a very small amount of Karaites who suspect Nehemiah Gordon of being a Rabbinic spy. (Mr. Gordon told me this himself one time). Right now, the UKJ is deciding on how to do conversions for non-Jews. Since the known history of Karaism, virtually all "converts" to Karaite Judaism have been from Rabbinic Judaism.--Josiah 19:54, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)

Yoshiah,

That may very well be the case, having gained most of my information online. I am quite thankful, and in fact relieved, that these "Internet Karaites," as you said, do not represent any sort of traditional approach to Karaite Judaism. I am very interested in learning more about traditional Karaite Judaism, though I'm afraid that I haven't the means to do it. Which resources would you recommend in my studies on the matter?

Also, this has introduced a bit of confusion. The Karaite Korner website, which was recommended in this article, states that "conversion" is done simply by circumcision, pledging allegiance to Israel, and living by the Torah. I am fairly certain that this is not the traditional approach to the matter, as you have stated that converts have not been taken until recently. Would it then be impossible to be a Karaite away from a Karaite community? Where may I find more authentic information on this matter?

Thanks again.

Gentleman: I don't appreciate the prejorative use of the term "Internet Karaites". All Karaites that I am aware of currently express favorable attitudes towards conversion. I am referring now to UKJ's r. Marzouk's letter favorable to conversion. Additionally, KJA's Hakham has a favorable position towards conversion, and the World Karaite Movement's Hakham Meir Rekhavi is developing on online course relating to conversion. I am one of two Jewish Karaite families living in the Greater New York area, - i.e. New York City, Long Island, & Westchester. I have raised my 11 year old son to be a Karaite. Should I not follow my conscious because the nearest Karaite Schul is 3,000 miles away in Daly City, California? I don't think so. Is this the teaching of our father Abraham? Where would we be today? [User: Eliezer ben Efraim HaKohen]

Yogensha

Some of what you have read may reflect on traditional Karaite thinking. What resources have you read so far? While the comments by the author are not always helpful, the Karaite Anthology book is a great source to start with Karaite and Ananite writings.

Let me reword what I said about conversion. Historically, virtually all of Karaite Judaism's "converts" were previously Orthodox Jews. During the past few centuries, as Karaism has been in a decline, some Karaites wouldn't allow conversions of non-Jews at all. (Though this is in contradiction with earlier Karaite writings) Since Israel's founding, the UKJ has been invovled with any official recognition of conversions, and until last fall, would not recognize any. Due to the efforts of Nehemia Gordon and the WKM, this is changing, and the UKJ is working on the way they will officially do conversions, especially since aliyah would be made by most of the converts.

Nehemia's article was correct - that is what the basic requirements are in Karaism. However, because conversions of non-Jews have not happened in ages, and the fact that aliyah will be an issue about recognizing conversions, it is easier said than done. Your questions would probably be better asked to a Karaite Hakham. Nehemiah Gordon, in paticular, would be best to ask about these issues, since he is the driving force behind progress in many of them.--Josiah 08:01, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

---

A particular issue that I had trouble with when I was studying this stuff a year ago was the Israel thing. How do they define "Israel", is it the government presently in the Middle-East (whose' presence and formation is highly questionable), or is it what it appears to be in the Tanakh (A covenant).

In this case I fear I have to agree with both the Liberal and Orthodox Jews, whatever the Nation of Israel is now, it does not appear to resemble anything Moses, H'Neviim and especially H'Shem Himself had in mind (unless it turns socialist and undergoes serious reforms within the Knesset to purge itself of the racists and corporate influences, then it may be an improvement, sadly, their is much chance of that happening there as over here).

69.248.43.27 06:01, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

That's nice. What does it have to do with the article? Wikipedia is not a discussion forum. This is a page for discussing the Karaite Judaism article, not for discussion of individuals' views of the State of Israel. Let's stick to the subject. Tomer^talk 11:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

When did Karaism start?

I noticed that the page does not indicate the time of the origin of Karaism, or whether or not this information is even available. All I can discern from the article is that the movement goes back to at least the 10th or 11th century.

According to the Karaite point of view, the Karaites are preserving (keeping) the old Torah way in the same way that 'Bnei Israel' kept all the time without any stop. That's make them start about 3500 years ago, when the Torah was given. --Neria 06:50, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The issue of the origins of Karaism could potentially have it's own article. It is complicated and hotly debated, and often centers around Anan ben David. Some claim that he founded Karaism, yet Arab historical records mention the Karaites before his lifetime, and after his lifetime mention the Karaites and the Ananites (the followers of Anan ben David) as two seperate groups. A small splathering of the issue is covered on the Anan ben David page. For now, it is probably best that the issue of Karaism's beggingings be avoided.--Josiah 08:08, Jan 10, 2005 (UTC)

If we define Karaism as a Jewish school of thought which believes that the only divine books containing Jewish law can be found in the TaNaKh, then it is clear that Karaism started before the name was attached to it. Clearly, King David was a Karaite. Making the most important speech of his life to his son Solomon who is about to attain the kingship of Israel, David said: "...keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in His ways, to keep His statutes, and His commandments, and His ordinances, and His testimonies, according to that which is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself." Melakhim Aleph [Kings 1] 2:3. David, though, wouldn't have thought of calling himself a Karaite because there were no SECTS of Judaism in his day to speak of. User:Eliezer ben Efraim HaKohen

You are welcome to your theological views, however one must maintain NPOV on wikipedia. On a sidenote, much of the Tanakh hadn't been written in King David's time...--Josiah 04:24, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

External links

the websites in question are from exchristians who are not affiliated with any *real* karaites anymore. Can you explain? --Neria 09:25, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The websites in question are run by 2 persons in Arkansas who once kept regular internet contact with the World Karaite Movement, and for a few years were associated with it. However, they have left it after criticisms of beliefs they carried from Christianity which had no biblical support, such as the Christian Apostle Paul's thoughts on "the spirit of the law". They are no longer affiliated with any Karaites, but they have retained the name. They are neither familiar with the works of the Karaite Hakhamim of the past, nor able to speak Hebrew.--Josiah 21:06, Feb 12, 2005 (UTC)

This should probably be described in the article itself, rather than just being deleted. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:48, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Why?--Josiah 00:00, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

Because the NPOV policy demands that these kinds of controversies be described, giving the positions of both sides, rather than eliminated. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:59, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say that I don't agree with Josiah... Yet. May be I don't know enough.

Nehemia G. is the head of the WKM, right? If he has no connection with them, how come that he is with them on the pictures they show on thier sites from Sukkot?

What exactly they carried from Christianity, which had no biblical support. Can you add more info?

Anyway, I think it is important to write about those guys... Don't you think so? --Neria 08:45, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I think so. You don't have to support what they say, but they should at least be described in a NPOV way. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:03, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

An e-mail that I get:

PalTalk Shabbat Reminder

Join us on Erev Shabbat (called Friday night Feb 18, 2005 on your calendar)

YahChannah Wolf will present "What Will You Do When I Am Gone?"

Please invite others whom you feel may benefit from these Study Meetings!

This invitation is to all. We are learning much in these meetings.

http://karaites-usa.org

http://www.karaite-korner.org

http://qumran.com

Meeting Schedule

1. PalTalk Sessions (If you do not have PalTalk, go to http://paltalk.com to download, it is a free program)

PalTalk meetings are held by Qumran Bet each beginning of Shabbat (Friday night) at 8:00 P.M. Central. We may be found under category: Religious Group: AmYHWH. For more information e-mail yahchannah@karaites-usa.org We are making no claims to being a part of WKM. We are under the auspices of Karaites-USA and Qumran Bet Community. We appreciate the sharing of the WKM

Karaite Korner

http://www.karaite-korner.org/

"Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,

Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,

With the statutes and judgments.

Malechi4:4

Don't it prove that they are associated with the WKM and the Karaite-Koner? --Neria 19:10, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I was told otherwise by another Karaite I know. However, to be sure, I will email Nehemia Gordon--Josiah 02:57, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

[Eleizer ben Efraim HaKohen replies: Is the above the kind of discussion that brings credit to the Karaite community to the rest of the world? Is this the image that Karaites seek to project? I think not. There is enough Lashon Harah spread by Rabbinates about ourselves...we don't need to create this kind of conversation about ourselves in public. ]

• Wikipedia doesn't exist to bring credit to the communities of any type. Its goal is to produce unbiased articles by mass cooperation with thousands of users. Your input is welcome, but it is the majority which (in the end) decides. You are welcome to join the discussion and offer your arguments in the conversation that I, Jayjg, and Neria have been having. (btw, neither I nor Jayjg are Karaites)--Josiah 04:21, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

I have looked into the information I had been passed along and I was grossly misinformed about the situation, I am sorry for any confusion this has caused.--Josiah 21:33, Feb 26, 2005 (UTC)

The main reason?

"These actions were intended to convince the Russian Czar that they could not have killed Jesus, which was an underlying reason for the anti-semitic laws."

Now, we all live in the real world, don't we? What sort of analysis, please pardon me, might this be? --VKokielov 06:30, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Josiah insisted on this text, and I wasn't able to convince him otherwise. It still looks like original research to me. Jayjg ^(talk) 16:25, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Jayjg, I don't have the citations before me, but the original reason for the tsarist oppression of Jews was related to the charge of deicide. From what I've read, however, it was because of a desire to avoid the excessive taxes charged against Jews (for being Jews) as well as the oppressive conscription policies of the tsarist régimes, that led the Qara'i communities to try to seek exemptions from the tsars. They did not claim, however, to not be Jews, they claimed to be real Jews, which they clarified as "not followers of the Rabbanim", whom the Russians identified as leaders of the Jews. Because the Qara'im denounced the rabanim as reprobates, and in accordance with their agenda, identified the rabanim as those who led the Jews in inciting the rabble to clamor for the execution of Jesus (despite the fact that it appears that it was the Tzedoqim, not the Prushim who were leading the clamor), they won the pity (for being "the righteous" among such a reprobate people) and consequently won exemption from the oppression levied against their fellow Jews. As a result of this, understandably, the Rabbanite Jews held them in utter disdain, not only for their beliefs as qara'im any longer, but worse, for their willingness to sell their brother into bondage in order to benefit themselves, a mistrust and hatred which was only deepened by the actions of many prominent Qara'i leaders in Lita during the Sho'a. Tomer ^TALK 04:05, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

But...there's a difference between a reason and a justification. --VKokielov 05:35, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No argument here, but your point has no relevance to the article... Tomer ^TALK 07:54, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you should fix the article, then. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:10, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I still don't have the sources before me. when I do, I'll take that up, if no one else has done so. What little free time I have for right now I'd like to use fleshing out the Judæo-Persian languages articles...just as soon as I finish figuring out my taxes and get prepped for shabat.  :-p Tomer ^TALK 19:59, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Nazarene Karaites

I removed the following section, entitled "Nazarene Karaites" from the article:

===Nazarene Karaites===

Originally a 1st century sect of Judaism, the Nazarenes have reemerged after a 2,000 year hiatus as a sect of modern Karaism. The modern Nazarene Karaite movement (AKA Qaryanic Movement) began in 2004. A Southern Baptist by the name of Ya'qub had been involved in the Messianic Jewish movement in 2003, but had become disturbed by the prevalence of Jewish Rabbinism within the movement. After reading about Karaism and perusing the writings of well-known and respected Karaite Nehemia Gordon, Ya'qub began speaking out against the Oral Torah and ultimately left the Messianic Jewish movement. He also criticized Southern Baptists for being too "Gentile," and claimed that Protestantism was "plagued by ignorance." His ties to Southern Baptists, however, did not disolve. After converting to Karaism, Ya'qub paved the way for the rebirth of early Nazarene Judaism in the form of a modern Karaite sect, Nazarene Karaism (AKA Qaryanism). Qaryans, as they call themselves in English, emphasize Aramaic over Hebrew on the basis that Aramaic was the language spoken by Yshua', whom they consider to be the most influential Kariate in History and the founder of Nazarene Karaism. After extensive study of Syriac Aramaic, Ya'qub undertook a project of simplifying and modernizing the Syriac Aramaic language. He dubbed the result Qaryanic, and it was adopted for use within Qaryanic worship.

I'm not sure this information belongs in the Karaite Judaism article. If this section, as written, is factually correct (note that the anonymous author of all of this information provides no source material) it appears to be much more relevant in Messianic Judaism or Nazarene#Modern_movements. What's here sounds rather POV (and rather like original research), but perhaps that's just me. I recommend that this section not be included here, but rather, if there's any value to it, in its own article or in one of the two articles I've already mentioned. This stuff sounds eerily like the "Nazarene Judaism" stuff that caused a minor uproar at Talk:Nazarene a month or so ago... Tomer ^TALK 21:09, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)

Dear user who originally wrote the abovementioned content and who has now at least twice tried to delete it from this talk page: Please leave it here. It's not likely to make its way back into the article, but leaving this discussion here does nothing to detract from the article, and may help in guaranteeing the integrity of the article in the future. Tomer ^TALK 06:24, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

Christianity has nothing to do with Karaism. Most Karaites would be offended at even the slightest suggestion that the Messianic movement has anything to do with their beliefs - I think Isaac Troki's polemic Chizzuk Emunah should be proof enough of that.--Josiah 03:31, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Removing French Karaite Chatgroup link

I removed

• Karaite community in France

from the External links for a variety of reasons:

(1) The group's main page info is in French almost exclusively, eventhough it says it's a bilingual group.

(2) It's a Yahoo! group which contains no reliable information. While I consider this to be sufficient reason to delete the link, I realize others don't, and to prove I'm not just on a crusade against Yahoo! chat groups, please read (3)

(3) The information on the group's page clearly states that the Qara'im are inheritors of the Judaism of the Bnei Tzadoq (a made-up group), which it then goes on to clearly associate with the Tzeduqim (Sadducees), with which the Qara'im most certainly are not associated, and from which their ideology is most certainly not descended. In fact, to call the Qara'im Tzeduqim is an erroneous slur flung against them by their Rabbanite opponents, in part as a way of cursing them with extinction (since the Tzeduqim had been wiped out for over 700 years by the time the arguments between the Rabbanites and the Qara'im came to the fore).

Ordinarily I wouldn't take such pains to explain my rationale for deleting such an unreliable link, but since it took the anon who inserted it several attempts to "get it right", I wouldn't be even mildly surprised if it shows up again...and I thoroughly intend to delete it again if it does. Tomer ^TALK 17:09, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)

Hi Tomer,

What about putting in http://talmidisme.over-blog.com in the link list (nothing that it is in French)? Seems like it's also a (maybe the same?) Karaite group in France of Crimean origin but it's quite a detailed website with history, practice and Torah commentary.

Looks good. Tomer ^TALK 17:34, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Karaylar and Karaites

I noticed that the entry for the Karaylar redirects to Karaite Judaism. Perhaps it should point to the Crimean Karaim instead. If I remember correctly, I believe the Karaim are not actually Karaites in religion; they revere Muhammad and Jesus as Prophets, and they disavow themselves being Jews. This had led to much confusion regarding the topic of Karaites, especially with regard to the Holocaust. This new redirect could clarify a few ambiguities.

Yogensha 01:11, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

The idea that Avraham Firkovitch was charged to go to the Tsarist government to free the Karaim from tax laws is an lie. I notice there are no references which can prove this statement either.

In this Wiki article, this section makes it appear as if Avraham Firkovich invented the claim that Karaim were not Jews specifically for ethno-economics. This is rather misleading. The following is a letter of the Turkish Karaites to the Chief Rabbi of Turkey, 1886.

We, Israelites, called Bene-Mikra, and living in the quarter of Haskeuy, owe the right to live in a ghetto of the said suburb to the mercy of the Imperial Government. Thanks to the unceasing efforts of the Medjlis (Consistory) and the progress of the century, our present position, compared with that of former times, has been considerably improved; our children go to Jewish schools, we visit the Jews and eat of their unleavened bread, and they, on their side also eat of ours. In a word, we live on good terms, as becomes the subjects of His Majesty, the Sultan, and particularly to us, who are certainly children of Israel, since we observe the Law of Moses. Now a man has appeared named Solomon Camhi who, ignoring the principles of true Judaism, is endeavoring to excite the people in every way by his writings. Lately, with an interested aim, he has excommunicated all those persons who had eaten unleavened bread which was manufactured by machinery. However, that does not concern us. This is the point which touches us more closely. For some time past, we have noticed that the old hatred of the Jews against us has been suddenly rekindled; once more we are insulted and ill-treated, and we are beaten in the streets. We have just learnt that this revival of the anger of the mob is due to the various slanders against us to be found in an absurd pamphlet of the said rabbi, entitled Melechet-Shelomo. In this work it is stated that the Karaites being purely and simply animals, not only is it forbidden to teach them the Law, but it is permissible to kill them. We therefore demand that justice should be done, and that the culprit should be punished. We address our appeal to Rab Jakir and to the Rabbinical tribunals. If we do not obtain satisfaction, we shall be obliged to make a complaint to the Government against the author of this criminal book.- Haskeuy 22nd Kislev 5627 (30th Nov. 1866). Signed: Afeda Cohen, Ishak Sadik, Eliahu Cohen, Emanuel Japhet, Ishak Kerimi, Menahem Japhe, Judah Ben-Goubi, Samuel Japhet, David Ferouz, Haim Cohen, Judah Japhet, Berachah Ben Goubi.

According to the translation given in Essai sutr l'Histoire des Israelites,by M. Franco, p. 171. THE KARAITES IN EUROPEAN TURKEY* CONTRIBUTIONS TO THEIR HISTORY BASED CHIEFLY ON UNPUBLISHED DOCUMENTS By ABRAHAM DANON, Paris; The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Series, Vol. 15, No. 3 (Jan., 1925), pp. 357-358

What strikes me oddly concerning this letter, is the way the Karaites in 1866 Turkey referred to themselves as opposed the the Rabbinites. The karaites referred to themselves as "we Israelites, called Bene-Mikra"; "we are certainly Israelites"; and then juxtopose their being Israelites to the Rabbinites being "Jews". For instance "For some time past, we have noticed that the old hatred of the Jews against us has been suddenly rekindled".

This was written in 1866, and this was after the time that Avraham Firkovich returned from Jerusalem 1830-35. He remained in Constantinople for two years as a teacher of the Karaites in Turkey. It was in Firkovich's later years that he was concerned with proving the Karaites were not Judean. I am wondering whether Firkovich influenced the Turkish Karaites, or if they might have influenced him. It was the Karaites of Crimea who made the claim that the Karaites of Crimea were not Jews but Israelites who were exiled to those lands in the days of Sennacherib:

On 8 June, 1795, Tsarina Catherine the Great accepted a petition from a Crimean Karaite delegation requesting that they be exempted from any legislation affecting the Jews. They claimed that their ancestors had been living in the Crimea since the sixth century B.C.E., when King Sennacherib of Assyria brought them to that region after conquering the Kingdom of Israel. They also argued that their ancestors were not in Palestine when the Jews crucified Jesus. This theological argument was accepted, and the Karaites were permitted to purchase land and were exempt from paying the double tax imposed upon the Russian Jewish community. Simon M . Dubnow,History of the Jews in Russia and Poland(PhiladelphiaP, a., 1916),I , 318; The Fate of the Crimean Jewish Communities: Ashkenazim, Krimchaks and Karaites, Warren Green, Jewish Social Studies, Vol. 46, No. 2 (Spring, 1984), pp. 170-171, INdiana University Press

This event would have happened when Firkovich was about 10. This means he was not the originator of the concept that the Karaites were Israelites and not Jews. As Warren Green explains there were two groups of "Karaites"; the Krimchak's who were Rabbinic Jews, and the Karaites who were not.

" Both of these groups had resided in the Crimea for many centuries and had culturally assimilated into the Muslim Tatar population. Both groups had adopted the Tatar language for everyday use. The Karaites spoke Karaim and the Krimchaks spoke Jagatai which were both traditionally written with Hebrew characters. Through intermarriage with the native populations, these two "mosaic" groups developed distinct Turkic-Mongolian physical features. The two groups, however, differed in one area - religion. The Krimchaks were adherents to the Rabbinic tradition of Judaism and not as some scholars mistakenly contend, either "Islamized Jews" or a "tribe long separated from the mainbody of Jewry."' The Karaites, on the other hand, were Old Testament Fundamentalists who had thrown off the yoke of Rabbinic authority in the eighth century." Fate of the Crimean Jewish COmmunities: Ashkenazic, Krimchaks, and Karaites, Jewish Social Studies, Vol. 46, No. 2 (Spring, 1984), pp. 171-172 Indiana University Press

I find myself wondering if there were not two distinct groups of Karaites in the Crimea. Those who considered themselves Jews, and those who considered themselves Israelites, much like the Samaritans. It seems a bit extreme to think there were some Karaites who were motivated solely by ethno-economic freedom as is the common claim.

According to the Wiki article(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krimchak), prior to the 19th century (1800's) the Krimchak's called themselves Bene Yisrael. I believe this to be the result of the similarities of the Karaim and Krimchak, who had the same culture basically. In reality, it was the Krimchak who claimed to be Jews, while it was the position of the Karaims to have been Bene Yisrael according to every historical document I can find.

Looking at the Wiki article on the Karaim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Karaites), they propose that Hakham Avraham Firkovich was the motivating force behind the Karaim separation from Judaism; however, according to the historical record, this separation accured long before Firkovich, and when he was 10 it was recognized by the Tsarist government of Russia. This recognition saved the Karaim during the Holocuast, as they were considered to be distinct from the Jews.

"On 5 December 1941, Ohlendorf decided to temporarily exempt the Karaites and the Krimchaks from registering as Jews until a further investigation could be undertaken. He then sent a letter to Berlin requesting information concerning the policy that should be adopted in dealing with these two groups. German documentation reveals that as early as 22 November 1941, inquiries were made concerning the safety of the Crimean Karaite community. In a letter addressed to Alfred Rosenberg, head of the Ostministerium fur die Besetzen Ostgebiete (the Ministry of the Eastern Occupied Territories), a request was made by Sheraya Szapszal, the Hakham (spiritual leader) of the Polish Karaite community that the Reichsstelle fur Sippenforschung exemption be recognized by the German authorities in Southern Russia." (Fate of the Crimean Jewish Community: Ashkenazic, Krimchak, ad Karaim, Warren Green, p.172)

"In another document mention of the Krimchak and Karaite settlements in the Crimea can be found. This report, dated 15 December 1941, was entitled Vorldufige Angaben uber die Krim ("Preliminary Statements Concerning the Crimea") and was prepared by researchers from the Reichskommissariat fur der Festigung deutscher Volkstum (Reichscommission for the Strengthening of the German People). The report explained that the Krimchaks were Jews who spoke the Tatar language and had intermarried with the native populations. This assimilation was apparent from the relatively high percentage of Asiatic features found among the Krimchaks. The authors of the report considered the Karaites to be distinctly different from the Jewish Krimchaks. Their uniqueness as a non-Jewish group was recognized by the tsars who granted them many rights and privileges."(Fate of the Crimean Jewish Community: Ashkenazic, Krimchak, ad Karaim, Warren Green, p.172)

At any rate, the current article is misleading, as Firkovich set out to prove a claim already to have been made and upheld by the Tsarist regime. He proved this via Ibne Zikaron, which documented the gravestones, indicating the Karaim called themselves Bene Israel from ancient times. The authenticity of his book may be disputed, however, the point is, he did not make the claim, nor was he the main force behind it.

Just food for thought Yaaqov ben Yisrael — Preceding unsigned comment added by YaaqovYisrael (talk • contribs) 14:36, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

History section

I think the History of Karaism section could be much improved with only a little work. Unfortunately, I'm too much of a non-expert to do it. In particular, when was "The Golden Age of Karaism"? Also, since we're talking about history here, maybe the section could be placed in chronological order? — Nowhither 23:15, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

ORIGINS

This article desrerately needs a better history section, which should cover the origins of Karaism. Whoever undertakes this should remember the basic journalistic rule: who, what, where, when, and why should go in the lead. Explication should follow. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Adam Holland (talk • contribs) .

Yoseif Yaron

FYI, someone started an article for Yoseif Yaron. It's in the list of dead-end pages and I don't know enough about the subject to know whether the article should be deleted or kept. The list of dead-end pages is a dangerous place for an article to be so someone might want to fix it up and integrate it into the rest of Wikipedia before someone deletes it. —Wknight94 (talk) 21:45, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• Since Google search showed a good number of references to Yoseif Yaron and his books I've done some basic wikification of the article and removed it from the dead end list. However it could certainly use some help from someone with real knowledge or Karaite Judaism. Thanks! Cje 09:32, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Some Confusing Wording

In the listing part of the Karaites and the Mishnah section, I really couldn't figure out what the first number meant (well, I could get the gist of it, but it was still pretty oddly worded). Same thing with number three-- at least to me. I'm not at all familiar with Karaite Judaism so I wouldn't go in and reword it to convey the meaning simply enough myself, but if someone else can, I think that would be good. Unless it's just me being dumb and confused (which I wouldn't rule out).

Karaites and Reform?

Is there ANYTHING to substantiate this connection? Seeing as Reform Judaism is a purely rabbinic movement, and given their liberal tendencies, I would be hard-pressed to believe that Karaites, especially those with a fundamentalist streak, would affiliate themselves with the URJ. Perhaps there is a link to prove this point? --OneTopJob6 03:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Reform Judaism's "liberal" tendancies prevent would prevent religous Karaites as affiliating with them, unless the Karaites in question were not very religous and carried those same "liberal" tendancies. -JD

Incorrect Numbers

There are some incorrect numbers here. This page claims that Karaism only reached a height of 10% of world jewry, however during the "Golden Age of Karaism" 40% of world Jewry were Karaites. Durings those days Jewry was not united, and there were many sects. Karaite Sage Ya'acov Al-Kirkisani wrote a brief history of some of these sects. See also http://www.jewfaq.org/movement.htm where the 40% figure is mentioned. http://www.eajc.org/publish_gen_e.php?rowid=100 gives the number as 30-40%. Today there are approximately 30,000 Karaites. Figures range as high as 50,000. This overall population number is not mentioned, and should be. --JD

Also, the introduction section says there are 100 Karaite families living in Istanbul currently, while the section on Karaite Judaism today says there are 50 individual Karaites living in Istanbul currently. Clearly one of these is wrong.

1911 EB

The 1911 Britannica article on Karaites is located here: http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Qaraites

Could be of use... zafiroblue05 | Talk 03:46, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Status

Does anyone think it would be helpful to add a section on the status of Rabbinic Jews in the view of the Karaite law: are they Jews or not (since they follow matrilineal descent)? Also, this could discuss the status of Karaite Jews (not people born as Rabbinic Jews who now practice Karaite Judaism but traditional Karaite communities, obviously) in Rabbinic halakha. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by NYCJosh (talk • contribs) 22:45, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Go for it, just keep WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:CITE and WP:RS in mind. Tomer^talk 23:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Semantics in Header

I'm not sure the description "denomination of Judaism" is quite accurate. Karaites claim to follow the true Judaism, while mainstream Judaism recognizes Karaites as a breakaway sect, rather than as a denomination along the lines of Conservative, Chassidic, etc. Thoughts? -- Chabuk ^{[ T • C ]} 20:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

• The use of the word "denomination" regarding any group of Jews is problematic. As far as I'm aware, Conservative and Reform Jews don't regard themselves as "denominations", but call themselves "movements". Tomer^talk 23:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Chabuk in that I have never heard the term denomination used to refer to the Karaites. I have have only heard the word sect used, with "denomination" reserved for Conservative, Reform, Orthodox, etc. I would argue that "sect" is also more correct, because the other groups mentioned all claim to derive their philosophies from ideas expressed in the Oral Law (e.g. Tikkun Olam), whereas Karaite Judaism makes a more fundamental break. As for "denomination" being problematic, why? It doesn't have any offensive connotations. nadav 09:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I was about to change demonination to sect when I found the this hidded comment there: "please see the discussion, 'sect' seems to be incorrect". I didn't find anything in the archived talk page or this page about this issue. Does anyone know where it is? nadav 09:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC) And anyways, the linked-to page Jewish denominations does indeed call Karaite Judaism a sect of Judaism. nadav 11:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Changed it after asking the editor. nadav 05:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Changed it BACK. Sect sounds as a bad thing. --Neria 14:04, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not a denomination; a breakaway sect.--Redaktor 17:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

This is an Orthodox Judaism POV! from my ponit of view the Orthodox is a breakaway sect.

As I said, Sect sounds as a bad thing. and we don't wan't to be NPOV, right?

You can call it movement, you can call it branch, but not a sect. --Neria 20:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Why do you think sect is bad? According the article, the word only had a negative connotation for Christian religions a long time ago. But in other religions there is no problem. It's the accepted word for referring to Shiites and Sunnis as well as several Indian religions. There is no pejorative meaning. For the Karaites, it is also the accepted word. Note that they even refer to themselves that way (see [1]). nadav 22:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

It will be OK if we call all the jewish denominations "sects". If you try to call just the "karaite judaism" sect - you are wrong, because you become NPOV.

About the web page of the KJA, I am sure it is a mistake. An by the way they call all the jewish denominations "sects". - If you won't do it - It become NPOV.

As a karaite, I know it is insulting. As the writer of the Hebrew article on he:יהדות קראית, I now that some jews use this word in order to say that the karaite are: "breakaway sect" (as one said here). this is NPOV, as it will be [NPOV]] if I'll write that "'Karaism is the original form of Judaism as prescribed by God in the Torah" [2].

Please don't try to use a word that karaites don't call themselves by it.

And even if "The word sect has no modern negative connotation in non-Christian religions", It will be better to use one word for all the jewish branches, a word that don't remind the the negative connotation in Christian religions. As I said You can call it movement or you can call it branch.

Pleasr don't start an edit war.--Neria 06:31, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Movement is much better. I glad you found a compromise. Shmuliko 05:56, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Why not call it a stream of Judaism. There are many other streams like orthodox, reform, conservative, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fillesy (talk • contribs) 18:43, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Problems and merits of the article, so far

This Karaism article is obviously off to a great start, and shows promise for being a very good, informative article. I don't see many problems/edit wars ensuing. The main issues are its lack of organization in some places, its lack of length and attention to detail on some issues, and the total absence of citations. Obviously for anyone that fluently reads Hebrew that version is a great template to go off of; it is a featured article. Noogster 02:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Chayim Tchernowitz (Rav Tzair) in his Toldeot Ha-Posekim writes that specific statements in Maimonides and the Sheiltos were expressly written to counteract Kariate views. Thus most of the discusions in Sheiltos involve Rabbinic laws that the Karaites denied and Maimonides emphasised the biblical source for rabbinic practices that the Karaites argued against. Perhaps this can be a beginning to a section on Rabbinic response to Karaism.Wolf2191 02:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Please Add Alternate Spelling

in my attempt to find an article on karaites, i had three alternate methods of spelling 'karaite' without any direction to this article (that I found it at all was pure luck). if I can suggest; Karite, Carite, Qa'Rite, Karrite and any others so that may be directed to this page when put to into search engine, thank you. Axedmt 04:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Karite usually refers to shea butter, an additive in beauty products. I added a disambiguation notice at the top. I made Carite into a redirect for now, but it will eventually require a disambiguation page since Carite is also the name of various people, places in Puerto Rico, and a Venezuelan song. Karrite is a trademark, so I hesitate to make that a redirect. Qa'Rite looks like an unlikely spelling, but if you insist, I'll make that a redirect as well. nadav 04:50, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

New article

From the JPost. Tomer^talk 08:02, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

This article has some factual errors. As a participant in the ceremony, I should know what happened there.

The converts swore to take on the G-d of Israel and the people of Israel nothing was sworn to as "fealty" Karaite Judaism. Thus the converts joined the jewish people. In addition, there were 4 remarriage ceremonies conducted after the conversion.

Yochanan —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.109.86.17 (talk) 23:44, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

POV

This article is about karaite jews, not the always arguaging rabbinics.It is OK to write about the diffs, but critics should be in a different section. - I think - user:tothaa

Reverting vandalisms

I was going to revert the edits of User:Travisl91 (Diff), which seem vandally, but frankly the previous version I'd be reverting to seems a little hincky too, in the wording, as if words have been deleted. Perhaps someone more familiar with the article could go over that? Ford MF 22:41, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Karaköy

The claim that the name of Karaköy (a neighbourhood on the European side of Istanbul) derives from that of the Karaites seems extremely dubious to me. In Turkish, Karaköy's meaning (like those of most Istanbul neighbourhoods) is perfectly transparent: it means 'black village'. Q·L·1968 ☿ 22:27, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I vote it be put back on the front page. "Perfectly transparent" 'black village' maybe. Karaköy could mean 'black village' in Turkish much as in Karadeniz means Black Sea. Knowledge of the Turkish language without local history would likewise incorrectly lead someone to believe that "Taksim" was perfectly transparent in its meaning as 'my taxi'. "Karakoy" refer to the 'village of the Kara(ites)' and would corespond to the Constantinople location described by Benjamin of Tudela's 12th century epic account of Jews in the Near East. The tanners are described as oppressing the Jews and pouring their dirty (kara?) discarded tanning water in their district which would make for a Turkish play on words. (Tudela's work in English,London, 1907, page 24) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.219.4.81 (talk) 20:46, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Just noting that the 12th century account referred to above very much predates the Ottoman period.Jemiljan (talk) 06:43, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Edits by 24.57.60.200s

An anonymous ip editor diff added a long essay arguing that the oral law is a fiction and other related ideas. As the talk pages are to talk about the article itself, not the subject of the article, I have removed it. If anyone would like to respond to the poster comments I recommend finding a forum more conducive to that discussion - Wikipedia is not the place. Jon513 (talk) 16:08, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Apparent Vandalism

An anonymous user has edited the page to have a large text linked section header (with no actual content) that redirects to the artlcle"Rabbinic Judaism", directly above the "Rabbinic opinions" section. As this serves no apparent purpose, I'm going to assume it's vandalism. I'll delete it manually, since this user's previous intermediate edits seem to not allow a simple "undo". If this was a valid edit, please provide the reasoning on this talk page, or the link will remain deleted. Kaelus (talk) 06:59, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Hello, and thank you for paying attention. If you look carefully at the history of the page you'll see that this same anonymous user had already replaced legit links that were previously on the page with this same type of "modern Orthodox propaganda/vandalism." You can return to the previous version of the page as last edited by me. If you're not able to restore those legitimate wiklinks I had already restored once before, I will do it again. Regards,

warshy^talk 16:07, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Not To Be Confused With

Karate Judaism: Developed in medieval Iraq, refined in Japan and designed to be used against Rabbanite Jews when their obvious departures from the text called for a bit of martial arts. HAIIYAH!!!

Spinach Monster (talk) 06:09, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

AFriedman (talk) 02:37, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

High importance?

Perhaps one level below the importance of the largest branches, Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. As the only non-Pharisee branch of Judaism, Karaite Judaism may have preserved more of the diversity of Second-Temple era Judaism than all the other branches combined. In addition, a significant number of Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist Jews probably hold Karaite-like beliefs about the relative importance of the Torah and the Mishnah. What are your thoughts? --AFriedman (talk) 17:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Yisrael Ivri Kehilla

Hi, I've noticed that recently, a number of links have been added to the websites of a group called "Yisrael Ivri Kehilla" that claims to follow "Hasmonean" Judaism. Some of these links have been deleted. Who is this group? How did it originate? Where is it based? How large is its membership? What is their claim to being Karaite? Their claim that it is SO easy to become a Karaite rabbi makes me skeptical. From what I know about Karaites, their religious leaders are not called "rabbis" but are called "hakham" and even if becoming a Hakham doesn't require a degree, it would certainly require extensive studying of Hebrew, Tanakh and other topics. --AFriedman (talk) 01:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Hello AFriedman,

I know you from some exchanges at the Spinoza page, I believe, correct? In any case, you are absolutely right in your comments and in the questions you pose. This page needs serious historical work and serious historical adjusting. The reason is that there is historical Karaism, which is the subject that interests me, and there are some actual internet groups or sites claiming this historical mantle to their specific contemporary ideological and religious agenda. In my historical research about historical Karaism I don't mix current religious or ideological views. This page needs a separation between anything that rifghfully belongs to historical Karaism, and anything else, that may relate to some contemporary "karaite" groups claiming to be continuing this important historical tradition in the present, if that is at all possible.

The jumble and hodge-podge of ideas is clear but very hard to straighten out, in my view. But that is why, in the meantime, I don't even relate to the parts of the page that may relate to "contemporary" religious "Karaism," such as "Who is a Jew," or "Karaite [religious] conversion," or other such topics. Also the external links that crop up here are so weird and outlandish that I don't even care. Why get into discussions with these pseudo-Karaite internet "groups?" Who cares? Let them put whatever garbage they want in the external links section of the page, as long as they don't mess with the historical true core of material the page contains? Just some initial thoughts. Regards, --warshy^talk 17:11, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Hello Warshy,

Good to see your comment. I believe we've discussed this page before. Even if you personally find earlier periods of Karaite history more interesting, the movement has certainly survived continuously into the present day. The newer groups that claim to be Karaites have varying degrees of connection to the historical Karaites, from the U.S. synagogue founded largely by the Egyptian Karaite immigrant community to perhaps Yisrael Ivri Kehilla. On the one hand, there doesn't seem to be any clear way to distinguish who is a Karaite and who is not, especially since Karaites claim that the decisions of their central religious authorities are non-binding and interpretation is ultimately up to the individual. My impression is that the fundamental principles of Karaism would allow openness to interpretations that are very different from how Karaism was practiced historically. (In full disclosure, this one of the things that fascinates me about Karaism.) On the other hand, just as we don't want the Judaism page to have links about Messianic Judaism despite the debate over Who is a Jew?, we also don't want this page to have links to groups that are *too* far removed from how Karaism was defined historically. Reform Judaism operates on a not-dissimilar premise of individual choice, but unlike Karaite Judaism in most parts of the world, it is a large religious movement with a well-organized governing body that has the authority to clearly define what it means to be a Rabbi, for example. As a suggestion, perhaps we could require Yisrael Ivri Kehilla and these other groups to establish WP:Notability or WP:Verifiability as being Karaite before we include their links, or be acknowledged as Karaite by a notably Karaite source? --AFriedman (talk) 17:37, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you and I, for one, am totally behind your efforts to demand some sort of verifiability for far off "religious claims" (such as for example the "Karaite Conversion" rules that are on the page right now), or "'Rabbi' certification." I have a simple but sincere question, however, to begin with: what or who would consist of a "notably Karaite source" in your judgement? Thanks, --warshy^talk 20:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, we could start by looking at Wikipedia itself. This is not a perfect solution. For example, synagogues are notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles (although people still fight to keep these articles) but the article about the synagogue I mentioned may not have been added. However, the synagogue is mentioned as a notable attraction in the article about Daly City, California. People who have been converted at this synagogue and Jews who have taken the Karaite Jewish University course (KJU is run largely by the same people as the synagogue) are also legitimate Karaites. I consider the "Karaite Conversion" information legitimate, because the people are converted through KJU with their conversion approved by the Mo'eset Hakhamim in Israel. However, the only Google hits for Yisrael Ivri Kehilla were its own pages, which makes me wonder if it is what it appears to be. Would the people at Yisrael Ivri Kehilla even have a recognizable claim to being Jewish? If someone from Yisrael Ivri Kehilla or elsewhere could clarify what it is and who is involved with it, that would be helpful. --AFriedman (talk) 23:08, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying where you're coming from. I will read all the material you point to above more carefully now. Yes, another good source would be the article about Karaites in the Hebrew Wikipedia, which I wanted to translate material from there and incorporate here. But this is a long term project for the future, maybe. I haven't reviewed the latest version of the section on Karaite Conversion lately, and I now it has been tweaked lately. Last I reviewed it there were no glaring outlandish propositions, so I relented. The section about "Who is a Jew" I know has been tampered a lot with lately, but I haven't had time to review it. Initially, though the subject matter is not really germane to Karaism, there were some interesting ideas in the section, but it was hard to pinpoint where it is coming from, and what is the political and ideological agenda behind these edits. In any case, it is good to know that someone else with genuine interests in the accuracy of the material included in this wikipedia article is also checking the sources of claims that are rather randomly added every now and then. Regards, --warshy^talk 23:57, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Karaite conversion section and others

"Who is a Jew" seems to have more or less the typical Karaite opinion, even though references aren't cited. That type of viewpoint was held by the historical Karaites and is still a majority Karaite opinion today. So I'm not too concerned about it. Getting materials over here from the Hebrew Wikipedia would be a very good thing to do. There's also a nice section in the French Wikipedia about the position of women in Karaism (much higher than in other branches of traditional Judaism because of Karaism's egalitarian spirit). BTW, I'm also wondering if you're interested in editing the main Judaism article to bring it up to GA or FA status. That article has been assessed as one of the 1,000 most important in the encyclopedia, by both the "Vital Articles" and the "Core Topics" teams. --AFriedman (talk) 03:06, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer, AFriedman. Right now I am busy enough just trying to bring the Karaism subject in Wikipedia up to acceptable historical research standards. Of course, the whole issue of historical Karaism still lack a lot of standard historical research, but this would be already beyond the scope of Wikipedia itself. Right now I have trouble enough just getting my arms around the whole subject of Karaism. Even though my historical research started with Judaism, the issue is too large for me, with the amount of time I have right now to devote to the subject, all in a strict voluntary schedule, of course. So I will focus my efforts on Karaism and on Spinoza and on 17th century messianism, and on 17th century sugar trade, for the time being... Just the amount of stuff about Karaism just within Wikipedia I still have to catch up with is mind boggling enough... Regards, --warshy^talk 16:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

By the way: did you know that all the apparently random historical subjects I mentioned above are all really inter-related through a central figure in the history of Karaism? I am referring to Isaac b. Abraham of Troki, of course, and his Karaite thought masterpiece "Hizzuk Emunah," whose page I have created here and linked to the main Karaism article. Regards, --warshy^talk 17:04, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

No, I did not notice that all the historical subjects you pointed out are related to Isaac b. Abraham of Troki, until you mentioned it. Isaac b. Abraham was awesome and so is Hezouk Emunah. I don't understand the relationship between his book, Spinoza, the 17th c. sugar trade and 17th century messianism (another one of my favorite periods in Jewish history because of Shabbetai Tsvi). Could you please clarify? --AFriedman (talk) 17:48, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

I guess I should say there are above two separate chain-links that are inter-related as they converge into a very important, nay central, geographical location in Jewish history, namely Amsterdam in the 17th century. The link between Spinoza and Isaac b. Abraham's Karaite work goes through the Remonstrants in Leiden, which were connected to the early Unitarians in Eastern Europe, through whom he must have gotten hold of a copy of the "Hizzuk Emunah." I have come to conclude that much of what Spinoza says in the "Theologico-Political Treatise" he was able to say thanks to the widespread knowledge and acceptance of the "Hizzuk Emunah" 'Deistic' arguments among the European intelligentsia of the time, which he was addressing in Latin. But this is an original research and theory that still has to be better developed and argued, before it can become visible to the common eye in Wikipedia format. You can check for example the existing Wikipedia links between Spinoza's one time alleged "teacher," Menasseh ben Israel, and the planned publishing of the "Hizzuk Emunah" in his famous printing press in Amsterdam.

The link between 17th century colonial sugar trade, and 17th century Western European messianism and its most visible manifestation in the Shabtai Tsvi phenomenon, goes through the brothers Abraham and Isaac Pereyra, Portuguese sugar merchants and entrepreneurs operating also out of Amsterdam in the same period. But all this, as I said, is just a condensed, rather telegraphic and maybe even pretty opaque synopsis of entangling threads which I am still trying to weave into a more appreciable and intelligible tapestry in text format. --warshy^talk 19:51, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I still don't understand the relationship between these things. Are you trying to publish this work professionally? If not, and if you'd like to put it on the wiki, I suggest Wikibooks or Wikiversity. I'm quite active on the latter. Wherever you send it, I'm very interested in the topic and I'd like to see it. To me, it also sounds like it would be a wonderful external link in this article. --AFriedman (talk) 18:24, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

I am still working on it, especially the second connection (Amsterdam colonial sugar trade and 17th century messianism). When I have something that could be publishable I will look into your two suggestions above, which I am not really familiar with. There is so much to learn just on the technical wiki side, not to mention the historical subject matter itself; and, alas, the day is so short on time available to work on these issues... Thank you for your interest. Regards, --warshy^talk 23:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, it's a fascinating subject. I don't have very much more to say about it and best of luck with the research! --AFriedman (talk) 03:55, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

This section makes a number of rather interesting assertions as if written by a Karaite attempting to convert someone to their perspective. It makes the assertion that the Tanakh indicates patrilineal as the determining factor of Jewishness for non-converts, yet does not address how the Karaites view Lev 24:10 or Ezra 10:2-3. This section is not simply propaganda, it's incomplete! Geofferic (talk) 03:24, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Pronouncing the Name

The article says:

Traditional Karaites view the pronunciation of God’s name to be blasphemous, and adhere to the rabbinic tradition of substituting “Adonai”, while coming across YHWH while reading. Karaites mostly coming from a rabbinical background, as well as the majority of converts to Karaite Judaism, do not consider it a prohibition to pronounce the Name, some viewing it as a mitzvah (commandment) to do so.

This is confusing. If traditional Karaites adhere to the rabbinic tradition of not pronouncing the Name, why would those from a rabbinic background view it as a mitzvah?Pedantrician (talk) 00:54, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

This section is confusing, and at first read, it sounded partly historically inaccurate. After reading it a second time I realized the paragraph is talking about modern Kara'ite groups. The "traditional" Kara'ites referred to are those modern Kara'ites that are predominately from the Cairo area (a group which have adopted a few Rabbinic practices). The other Kara'ites referred to in the paragraph (those converts from a rabbinic background as well as non-rabbinic converts) are modern Kara'ites who have come into Kara'ism, but have adopted "historical" Kara'ite beliefs. I put "historical" in quotes here because historical (pre-modern era) Kara'ites were also split into those who did not pronounce the name (the minority group, although not small in numbers) and those who did pronounce the name (the majority group). The ben-Asher family of Masoretes (part of the Karaite division of Judaism) are thought to maybe be of the non-pronouncing Kara'ites. In modern Kara'ism, the "Cairo group" (mostly now living in Isra'el and California [?]) is the main group who have a majority in not pronouncing the name. It appears this section mostly ignores Kara'ites who are not either kind of converts, but still pronounce the name as per the old historical majority. This section should be rewritten to clarify what is meant and add historical stance as well. Might do later, but will be busy the next week or so, so I am hoping someone will get to it before me. — al-Shimoni (talk) 02:51, 1 January 2011 (UTC) (original version 02:48, 1 January 2011 (UTC))

Why "Karaite Judaism" and not "Karaism"?

Why is this article called "Karaite Judaism" and not "Karaism", which is the more common name? - Lisa (talk - contribs) 00:47, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

As long as a search for "Karaism" or "Karaites" redirects here, which I haven't checked yet, it is all the same. I for one like "Karaite Judaism" better, but it is not a material issue. warshy^talk 12:08, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

It redirects fine, and the title says "Karaite Judaism" or "Karaism" so everything should be OK. warshy^talk 12:10, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Karaite Organizations

Shalom all, we (Malkut Yehudah) have come to the conclusion we are "not" Karaites, our origin is Jewish. Karaite, Karaim or Qaraim root word is; “kara,” which means; “reader.” The name Kara-n (Quran or Koran) means the “Reading” or the “Book of the Qaraims”. The original Karaites were Muslim and used the Quran (Koran), Tehudah (The original New Testaments) then the Jewish Tanakh.

The founder of Islam and author of The Quran was Muhammad ibn Abdullah, and the modern Karaite theology, doctrines, writings and Siddurs are from the 9th and 10th centuries CE, and was written in Babylonia, as a Muslim faith, promoting Isa/ Yasu (Jesus) as their prophet.

Karaites teachings are Samaritan in origin; Isa/ Yasu (Jesus) was a Samaritan, see; http://www.judean.org/page8.html - Jesus of Samaria), and represents a different priestly lineage than from King Solomon’s High Priest Zadok (Sadducees).

In the past few years there has been a lot of new Karaite organizations that claim to be “Jewish Karaites,” but they are Muslims evangelizing Jews and Christians into the Muslim faith. Even though many of these Karaite sites claim not to be Muslim nor Christian, Karaites and Karaism is a Muslim faith. Don’t be deceived into their Muslim faith. Muslims uses Karaite and Karaism as the first step to convert Jews and Christians into Islam.

The Jewish Karaites claim to use the Tanakh only, but they quickly introduce their new converts to 9th and 10th century Muslim doctrine and Siddurs. Then they begin to encourage the study of the Talmuds, then Tehudah, then Quran, and before they know it, they have been tricked into being a Muslim.

If you convert to Karaite or Karaism you are a; “Muslim.”

And the Israeli government and the Jewish population in Israel, do not consider Karaites as being Jewish. Don’t be naïve; Karaites are Muslims. And if you aliyah to Israel as a Karaite you may find yourself in the West Bank with your fellow Muslims.

The numbers of Karaites in Israel and worldwide are greatly exaggerated. The small recent Karaite activity is due to the world wide web. Shalom Abivry, 8/15/2011

You seem to be rather uninformed about Karaism as the description you give for Karaism has no connection to Karaism. Perhaps you ran into someone or a group of people who claimed to be Karaites, but if the were as you describe above, then those people were not Karaites. — al-Shimoni (talk) 22:58, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Undid Removal of Nehemiah Gordon by 24.239.183.202

I'm not sure what reason IP 24.239.183.202 had for removing Nehemiah Gordon — considering both his prominence as a representative of the Karaite community, written works by him, and that he is referenced in the body of the article — but I undid the removal. On top of that, I think NG is the only Karaite who currently does speaking tours internationally. If IP 24.239.183.202 has a good reason, feel free to let us know before making a somewhat baffling move as that. :) — al-Shimoni (talk) 03:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

A very 'POV' section

Under the subheading "Crimean and Lithuanian Karites" is found a reference to "Szapszalian nonsense". While his doctrines seem nonsensical to me (whose opinion in the matter, as a Gentile, is of extremely little value), I don't think that this wording is either objective or adherent to WP:NPOV, however I would prefer it be edited by someone with both extensive knowledge of the topic and the light, deft touch which I generally lack. 75.200.47.122 (talk) 18:07, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually just corrected that a few minutes ago before reviewing the talk section. I, however, made an error in my edit-explanation saying "extremely NPOV" — the N should not have been there. The part you quoted looked like vandalism to me, but either way, it was POV and didn't really fit in the sentence, so I removed it. Also, earlier in the same sentence, I replaced "Karaites" with "Qaraylar" as that is whom that part of the sentence is referring (I'm not sure if that 'error' is related to the "Szapszalian nonsense" (possible) vandalism, but...). — al-Shimoni (talk) 10:02, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Hello al-Shimoni, and welcome to editing on this page/subject (Karaism). I see that you have been contributing here since January of this year, but only today I had some time to look at your overall contributions here. I think, from what I see so far, that you can be very helpful in cleaning up the basic "mess" that this page currently is. This is because you seem to have a good grasp on the current status and developments of Karaism today. This is an area I don't know much about. In general, my interest here is only the historical aspects of Karaism, not on present day/current issues. But I think one way to avoid the "mess" that currently exists is to try and separate as much as possible historical matters from present day/current matters. By historical matters I am referring to historical Karaism, or Karaism as it was before the establishment of the State of Israel. Historical for me would really mean Karaism before the beginning of the 20th century and the beginning of Jewish nationalism or Zionism (around 1881 approximately). I don't know if you concur with my ad hoc definitions of 'historical' above, but I would be curious to know, however you define it, if you in general agree that historical matters should be very clearly separated on this page from present day/current 'political' matters.

Again, welcome, and thank you for all your positive contributions so far to improving this "mess" of an article/page. warshy^talk 18:44, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Last August I did a reorganization of the "See Also" section (which was quite "mess" at that time), I think that may have been my first edit to this article since I created this account. If I made any other edits before that — which I don't recall doing at this moment — it would have been before creating a Wiki account as well as being several years ago.

I would say, at the moment, that I agree that "historical" Karaism would be before the State of Israel and the movement that lead to its creation, but I think I also see that between that time and perhaps forty years ago has been a sort of transition into "modern" Karaite Judaism (not the same as historical, but still some vestiges of it as the world slowly changed into the electronic/information age). Perhaps a "quasi-modern" Karaite Judaism?

I try to keep up to date on what is going on in modern Karaism, but do have an interest in historical Karaism and other groups of the past 3000 (?) years. Anything I can help to contribute I will try to do so. — al-Shimoni (talk) 08:01, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Prominent???

I am humbly inclined to disagree and say that Melech ben Ya`aqov (a math teacher and computer/web programmer, among others) is not (currently) a prominent Kara'ite individual. As far as I know, he is chiefly known for his website (Karaite Insights) which is still a minor website within the present-day Kara'ite world, as well as being editor (owner, too???) of a minor Jewish newsletter. Additionally, there may be a bit of self-promotion as the IP address of the person who added him appears to serve an area near ben-Yaˁaqov's neighborhood. — al-Shimoni (talk) 11:44, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Mr. ben-Yaʿaqob, (I'm assuming — so I could very well be making an arse of myself at the moment — that it is you who added your name to the list based on both the style of wording and the geo-location of the IP you are using), what do you mean by "independent and somewhat controversial Karaite" (my emphasis)? At the moment, ignoring the "independent" word, I can think of more well-known modern-day Karaʾites (Devorah Gordon, Ivan Lombarbe, Isaac Kight, Abraham Massuda, Mordecai Avraham Alfandari, and others) who are still not really prominent enough to include in the list your name is found. Other than articles written by ben-Yaʿaqov on ben-Yaʿaqov websites, I don't see where the title "author" comes into play as I don't see any books registered/published under your name. Additionally, I think the inclusion on Melech ben-Yaʿaqov in the list violates a few of the Notability guidelines. I don't hold anything against ben-Yaʿaqov, I'm just calling into question his current qualification of inclusion (whilst we exclude others such as those mentioned above) in hopes that there may be justification that I have missed. — al-Shimoni (talk) 16:38, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Undid Wholesale Removal of Prominent Karaites

I undid a removal of a large chuck of the see-also section, mainly focused on the modern prominent Karaites. I don't see a reason to remove that huge chuck as was done by the IP-address-only user (possibly located in Brooklyn, according to the IP). The same user, in February, removed Nehemiah Gordon from this same section, so — if I might speculate — the user may have an issue with NG and this second attempt may have been to hide the editor's focus on NG (???). Either way, I didn't see a reason to remove such a huge chunk.
  However, I think the modern prominent Karaites can be trimmed down a bit. At the moment, I would say all individuals marked in red — except, maybe, Moshe Yosef Firrouz — should be moved to the List of Karaite Jews articles (if they are not prominent enough to have a Wiki article on them, they are perhaps not as prominent as indicated here). Those in blue (yes, including NG), along with Moshe Yosef Firrouz, I would say should — for now — remain in the list.
  As for Refik Halit Karay, in the historical section, I can't find much of any indication that he was Karaite, other than his last name may indicate Crimean Karaim ancestry. The citation request for him has been up for a while, and I think it may be time to drop the axe on him.
  Are there any objections? — al-Shimoni (talk) 10:57, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

No objections, al-Shimoni. Thanks for explaining here. All your suggestions make sense to me, so I'd say go ahead. Best regards, warshy^talk 12:57, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Made the changes, and also added other missing material to the List of Karaite Jews page, as well as an overhaul/reogranization of the the page with dates added. I might add dates onto this page, as well, if I get remotivated (took me an hour or more to make the last edits to both due to researching extra details). — al-Shimoni (talk) 01:18, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

"Karaite Directory" Website???

Noticed the Karaite Directory (KD) website after Warshy moved it to the bottom of the list and annotated the edit as a Muslim site. Was just looking over the 1 page website. Not sure what to make of it. It begins by making claims that Karaite Judaism is a Islamic movement (it is not, of course) and attacks Karaite Judaism. Then the "KD" website promotes a website/organization which claims to be the opposite of its description of what Karaite Judaism is by describing itself as being similar to what Karaite Judaism is in reality (rejection of Orah Law and post Temple writing, rejection of Christianity and rejection of Islaam). Then — confusingly — it then proceeds to list Karaite websites (which appears to follow the Wikipedia Karaite article's organization, but it isn't a straight cut-and-paste shown by the misspelling of several words and names, as well as including several websites/blogs not currently listed in the Wiki article).

I'm guessing this person may be confusing Karaites (Qaraˀiym) with the Kharijites (Ḫawārīj). Although they look kind of similarish in English spelling, when you bring them back to Hebrew and Arabic respectively, you can see the names are in no way related. Although, if the creator of the website is the same as the creator of Malkut Yahudah (which the KD website promotes) I'm not sure how he could confuse them since — from what I understand — he is a former Karaite. This "KD" website is rather peculiar/odd.

Should this website even be listed here? Although the website listing is longer on the one page of that website, I don't see any other added value to listing it, and also stress that its preamble is more-or-less anti-Karaite propaganda. The website/group the "KD" promotes as the alternative to Karaite Judaism (Malkut Yahudah) is not Karaite, and is actively anti-Karaite for its self promotion (I've seen spam promoting the Malkut Yahudah website). If it is to be removed, I think I'll abstain from being the one to remove it considering my current question(s) concerning it in this talk section. — al-Shimoni (talk) 22:46, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Hello al-Shimoni,

What is a Karaite today for me is a mystery, probably more mysterious than what is a Jew today. But I really don't care about Karaism or any religion as it is today. My interest in both Karaism and Judaism as sects or religions is simply historical. I have said already that I don't really care for the sections here that deal with today's trends and possible realities. The external links section where this spurios link, as you show, was added, is not really an important section of the article in terms of its encyclopedic knowledge, since it does not contain any such knowledge. That is why is simply moved the seemingly spurious site to the bottom of the list with the annotation you noticed, and did not simply remove it alltogether. I had already replied to the poster on this page that WP is not really the site for his weird propaganda, but he has now deleted that conversation, where I also showed he does not appear to know proper Hebrew. I think the link should definitely be removed, as your more in depth review show, and if you don't get to it, I will remove it myself a little later. Regards, warshy^talk 13:16, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Hello Al and Warshy, We improved our Karaite Directory, it is the only Karaite Directory that includes "all" Karaites sects, both ancient and modern. There are many Karaite organizations that do connect themselves to Islam as; The Isawiyya Israelite Mosque of Qaraims, Reformed Karaites and many others, which are not included in the Wiki directory. Wiki patrons should have the right to be fully informed of all Karaite sects. Karaite Directory is inclusive of all Karaites. Abivry 8/18/11 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abivry (talk • contribs) 13:45, 18 August 2011 (UTC) Hello Al and Warshy, The KD also has a directory includes best authorities of Karaites and Karaism, as Daniel Frank of Harvard University, Lenord Nemoy of Yale, and the links to Islamic Philosophy who present the Islamic perspective of Karaism, etc... that are not in Wiki directory, let Wiki readers be fully informed. Abivry 8/18/11 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abivry (talk • contribs) 14:06, 18 August 2011 (UTC) Then, Wiki only has three Karaite blogs/ Groups, KD has over thirty and growing. Abivry 8/18/11

I am not going to bother to check for the time being. Leonard Nemoy, as far as I know is a retired "Vulcan from outer space," not a Harvard sholar... This all sounds very weird as concerns historical Karaism, as far as I know it. And I have studied the historical subject quite a bit. But OK. As far as I am concerned the link itself, in the section and in the spot where it is now, can remain there, for the time being, until some other editor with more time and more knowledge and/or interest the subject (current "supposed" self-defined Karaite "sects?") can clean the section up according to WP guidelines. warshy^talk 15:49, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

LOL. Abivry, I think you mean Leon Nemoy (1901-1997). He was a Russian/American scholar whose primary focus was on the historical Karaites, but he also published under other topics, as well. Probably his best known work is "Karaite Anthology" in which he published English translations of old Karaite writings. I, too, will probably delay before revisiting the KD site (maybe give you more time to do extra updates). — al-Shimoni (talk) 22:00, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Massive edits with no discussion

Hello al-Shimoni. I saw you've started undoing these massive edits (some also apparently rather "rogue" or unsophisticated in terms of grammar and syntax) recently introduced by a new anonymous editor that signed in only yesterday to suddenly introduce all these massive edits (74.215.225.248). It looks like pretty religiously and ideologically driven stuff. I have no time now to review them one by one and revert the bad grammar or simply polemical stuff. I believe they should all be completely reverted, as you seem to be doing, and any new editings this editor wants to introduce must be first proposed here, diecussed here, and only then transferred to the main page. Massive changes like these cannot be made in this unprofessional, poor manner, in my view. warshy^talk 21:58, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

I've tried to look at them as good intentioned yet poorly executed edits, and thus have tried to look at each edit and fix them rather than just pull them all out wholesale. Parts that are useful information missing from the article I've tried to incorporate more appropriately. Anything blatantly POV I've tried to either neutralize then incorporate or just drop altogether. He seemed to repeat a lot of information already stated, and threw in a lot of information that just wasn't necessary (often with POV phrasing). A lot of what he wrote didn't make my cut. I think it took me an hour and half to go over most of his edits (before I ran out of time), I had to finish reviewing his edits today. I think I got most of them; if I missed anything...

When I started reviewing his edits and making changes, I noticed the article's lede seems fairly long. Can we move some of the information from the lede down into the main body of the article?

Another thing I noticed when reviewing the changes in the ṣiṣit section was that if I removed his edits, there wouldn't be much left in that section, and that just rewriting what he wrote to fit within what was there (before his edits) seemed a bit overcomplicated. In the end, I decided to rewrite the whole section and tried to include the issues the IP editor had addressed. If you get a chance to review it, I'd appreciate any changes or suggestion of changes. I do know it needs more — and better — citations. — al-Shimoni (talk) 22:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for all your work on this. It was really quite a bit of work you had to do. Regarding the length of the lede, I agree. If you get to it, you can move down whatever you feel would be better not there. I will try to review the ṣiṣit section soon. Thanks a lot again. warshy^talk 11:31, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

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the meaning of this name?

i am an Azeri, the phrase "KARAITE" means "the black gaurds" or "black watchers" or even can mean "a lot of watchers" in Azeri turkic, how ever latest historical studies suggest if our people should have been of Khazars, while the name Azerbaijan is actually the Arabic version of the original name "HAZAR Bayligi" which means the Khazar kingdom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.164.121.148 (talk) 22:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC)