Talk:Kartikeya/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Gita, Theological relevance

I have not yet added the stanzas in Gita that i quote in the article. consider that as a "TO DO". Also i dont know how to add "notes" and "references" - just added the content alone now. The corresponding refernces and appropriate stanzas from the Gita have to be mentioned here. --Arun bit 00:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


Images moved

New Murugan images added to the page. The raja raviverma's image in the front was not clear, and the Murugan face was not clearly shown. Hence, I moved to the inner part of the article and put a more clearer image of Murugan in the front.

Balajiviswanathan

I think they might remove your images some time later using a bot if they feel it is not compatible with this copyright stuff :(. --Arun bit 07:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Merger

As per the brief discussion here , should Skanda (which is just a stub) be merged into the Murugan article ? Abecedare 01:03, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

This is a tricky question as he has many regional names. I have not looked closely at how the pages crosslink now, but it seems to me some sort of review is needed overall. Skanda or Kartikeya are the names used most often in Puranic sources, I think, but I would time to do some reference checking. One of the theories about these names is that they reflect a process of gradually assimilation of multiple regional deities into one overarching figure as part of a process of historical assimilation of broader geographical areas. I have at least one reference book just on varieties of his forms and can check that. I request that we not act too hastily until we have a good sense of what's going on with the variations. The specific answer to the question of merging Skanda into Murugan is that I would not support it. If anything the Murugan article should be merged with either Skanda or Kartikeya, but I expect that will meet with resistance due to regional issues. Note that the article is almost completely unsourced. It is in need of a complete rewrite. Currently I cannot help here much because of limited time. Buddhipriya 02:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Just to be clear: are you saying that the two articles should not be merged, or that they should be merged but under the Skanda name ?
In my (real-life) experience I have seen the name Murugan used much more often than Skanda, and therefore I proposed that Skanda be merged into Murugan and not the other way around; but it is quite possible that my personal impression is incorrect. So perhaps we can look up some sources for contemporary usage and let other editors weigh in. Anyway, there is no urgency in this matter and we can easily wait for 5-7 days (or even longer if needed!) and see what opinions are voiced and if a consensus develops. Regards. Abecedare 02:31, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure yet if the articles should be merged. I think probably yes, but the issue is that you are really dealing with a composite deity here, and the age strata of the materials and regional variations are the key. I have two books which cover this deity in some detail. One is titled Karttikeya: The Son of Shiva (by Shakti M. Gupta) and the other is titled Ganesha-Karttikeya (by Ashish Khokar and S. Saraswati). I believe those names reflect the oldest traditional name for one variant of the deity. In Puranic times, the Skanda Purana is well-known and I am not sure about use of the other names in Puranic literature. In modern times, the regional deity Murgan has been assimilated and worship of the other forms has died down in the north. If you try to rename the Murugan article you may encounter a great deal of regional resistance. On the other hand, people who want to know about the stories of the other deities are unlikely to search for them under Murugan, and it can be argued that Murugan is a distinct form. Another comparison might be to Rudra and Shiva. Are they the same? Age strata suggest not, at least in the sense that Shiva evolved so much from Rudra that you almost need two articles on them, as is the case now. So to be honest I am not sure what to do. Personally I think of Murugan as a regional form and was surprised to find that there is no article explaining the older variants. Buddhipriya 02:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Having done a bit more research I now lean against merging the articles. The following references suggest to me that the best approach would be to have two separate articles, one for the older form using either Skanda or Kartikeya as the primary name (I lean toward Skanda, but either would probably do), and a second article for the regional deity Murugan who later was identifed with Skanda. This would be consistent with the two articles for Rudra and Shiva where a similar age stratification of materials is present.
  • Shakti Gupta directly addresses the naming problem in the Preface to her book Karttikeya: The Son of Shiva, which is a detailed study of this deity. She writes: "The names and epithets of Karttikeya are many. They also differ from area to area. For instance, the deity is popular in South India by the name Subrahmanya and Murugan, and by the name Khandoba in Maharashtra, while in North India it is more popular by the name Skanda, Kumara, or Karttikeya. I have tried to use the popular name of the deity -- popular in a particular area while I am writing about its cult in that area, and also the name under which it is mentioned in a particular text." (Gupta, Preface.) Gupta handles Murugan via a chapter on his cult in particular, treating him as a regional deity. (Gupta, pp. 12-15). Gupta gives similar handling in a different chapter to Khandoba, who is worshipped in Maharashtra (Gupta, pp. 52-56)
  • I checked the indexes of a few general sources to see how name variants were being used in indexes. Here are some results. In the index to volume one (covering earliest sources, Vedas, Epics, Puranas, and Tantras) Maurice Winternitz History of Indian Literature lists the name Skanda 3 times, with a separate listing for the Skanda Purana, while Kartikkeya is mentioned twice, and Murugan is not listed. (Volume 2 of Winternitz is devoted to Buddhist and Jain sources only, so is not obviously relevant to this.) In Stella Kramrisch's The Presence of Śiva there is a glossary of names, and the primary name cited is Skanda, with a note that an alternate name is Kartikeya; the name Murugan is not in the Kramrisch glossary. In the index to Gavin Flood's An Introduction to Hinduism the name Skanda appears six times, Kartikeya is not listed, and Murukan (Murugan) is listed four times. Flood distinguishes between these dieties as follows: "The South Indian god Murugan, the young man identified with the god of war, Skanda." (Flood, p. 29.) He further remarks on this saying that "indigenous Tamil deities became identified and absorbed into Aryan, vedic deities....the important deity Murukan, with Siva's son, Skanda, the god of war." (Flood, p. 129). The fact that Murukan was an independent deity in south India who later became identified with Skanda is confirmed by Axel Michaels, p. 252, Hinduism: Past and Present. The Glossary for C. Narasimhan's The Mahabharata gives Skanda as the primary entry, and a listing for Kartikeya saying simply that "it is another name for Skanda' (pp. 224, 230); the name Murugan is not listed.
  • A name check done for purposes of how to refer to this deity in the Ganesha article is repeated here to keep the thread available for review. "One way to quickly quantify relevance to Ganesha is to check the indexes for some of the standard works on Ganesha. In Brown the name Murugan appears once, Kartika twice, and Skanda four times. Thapan's index lists Murugan once, Kartikeya 8 times, including an extended discussion of him in relation to Ganesha that covers three pages, and Skanda is mentioned 12 times, including two extended sections on his relation with Ganesha that cover a total of 8 pages. Thapan notes other name variants in passing such as Kumara and others. Courtright's index mentions Murugan twice, Kartikeya once (and refers the reader to the main listing for Skanda), and Skanda is listed in the index five times, with extended material covering nine pages. Courtright lists the Skanda Purana four times, with detailed discussions covering 4 pages. In Grimes Murugan is not mentioned in the index, Kartikeya is mentioned seven times, and Skanda is not mentioned, but the Skanda Purana is mentioned twice in the index. Buddhipriya 06:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


  • What should be the criteria for the first name? Should it be historical name, the earliest based on evidence? Should it be the popular name that most people relate to "now" (as in present)?? Should it be based on the content available on a wiki page??? - --Arun bit 07:29, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be no particular convention for naming mythological characters, I guess the problem of multiple names in mythology never occurred to anyone. I think the article ought to be what people relate to in the present if it's a deity who's still worshipped. --The Raven's Apprentice(Profile|PokéNav|Trainer Card) 14:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

This should be called Kaumaram

Kaumaram was one of the established sects of Hinduism. It was one of the Shanmathas along with Saivam, Vaishnavam, Saktham, Ganaptyam, and Souryam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanmata

http://www.kaumaram.com/articles/kaumaram_e.html

The site in Tamil is devoted to Murugan.

Sankarrukku 18:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Sankar Viswanathan

Clean up of article

I have done some cleaning up by merging sections and rearrangement. Inappropriate links have been removed. --Sankarrukku 01:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Please merge if possible

Please merge some or all of the following content. It was created at Sendhilkumar, but appears to refer to the same Hindu god, so I made that page a redirect. I don't know enough about the subject to determine what material (if any) is worth merging in. This is not my material, Kessavsendhil created it.

Former article begins here---

Sendhil kumar/ kumaran is the name of Tamil god Muruga/Saravanan. In Hindu there is an habit of naming one person with several names. Same applied to Lord muruga, when he appeared in his most beautiful form. Also said that he was beautiful after possessing the saffron mark over his forehead. Red(saffron) on a young boy's forehead - Sendhura , kumaran ---- thus derives Sendhil kumaran.

some of his creations are found in the following links.

http://kessavsendhil.phpnet.us/

ALSO, Please include information about Skandha Shashti Kavacham, Skandha Guru Kavacham, the meanings of these or at least a link from where the user could trace these. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.43.32.86 (talk) 17:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC) Former article ends here---

Fourohfour 18:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Literature on Lord Murugan

We should try to include links to articles that could provide details & meaning of various literature available in praise of Lord Murugan - especially the Skandha Sashti Kavacham & Skandha Guru Kavacham. The former uses Thamizh of a very specific period and it would be difficult to comprehend the meaning completely for any 'current-Tamil' speaking person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.43.32.86 (talk) 17:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

New Article

I have recentyl created an article entitled Kartikay. Kartikay is a distinct deity and is not identical to Murugan. I would like to see if the community feels it welcome to merge Kartikay content on this page with the Kartikay article Emishi (talk) 17:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge Kartikay

Kartikay is an alternative spelling of Kartikkeya, identified with Murugan. --Redtigerxyz (talk) 10:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Kartikay

Kartikay is a definately distinct deity. Murugan is a Tamil deity. Kartikay is a more widely revered deity. See hhtp://www.sanatansociety.org. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.13.67.194 (talk) 10:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

On proposal to merge with Murugan

  • Comment Concerning the merge proposal, I think it needs to be confirmed that they are infact one in the same with no varying perspective on each naming/personality. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 05:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Strictly speaking, they are not the same. Murugan is a chthonic deity of the South, assimilated to (i.e. "identified with") Karttikeya[*] who is part of the Skanda/Kumara legends in various Puranas (themselves the result of prior assimilations); just as, say, Venkateshwara was assimilated to Vishnu. Over time, there was cross-over and mixing of separate legends, but there is no hope of sorting this out without reliable sources. [*](enough of this "Kartikay" nonsense -- who came up with that?) rudra (talk) 09:14, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Skanda, Murugan and Karttikeya can be three different personalities. For example, on page 148 of Gavin Flood's Introdution to Hinduism, he states that, "Within the developing Hindu traditions we can see the process of Brahamanization or Sanskritization, whereby the great brahmanical traditions of vedic social values, vedic ritual forms and Sanskrit learning absorbs local popular traditions of ritual and ideology. We have seen this, for exapmle, in the cult of Vithoba who becomes identified with Vishnu and of Murugan who becomes identified with Skanda." Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 14:42, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Call for reorganization of the content

I think the content for this page was worked out by different people at different times. Some of the content is repeated or redundant. We need to organize them into a coherent flow of sub headings. Any suggestions on how we can reorganize the content? We need to have a natural flow of the contect and also make sure we dont unknowingly get emotional in this article's content --Arun bit 07:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

-Yes. The content though exhaustive, really makes readers feel exhausted by its disorganised presentation.I suggest that the topics be categorised in an order and then the data be assigned accordingly -like; 1.An intro about Lord Murugan (a brief about His position, popularity) 2.His Birth and early life(regions and temples) 3.Slaying of demon(place,the war,aftermath) 4.His wedding to Valli and Deivayanai 5.Illustrations in regional and religious scriptures 6.Saints devoted to Lord Murugan 7.Scared texts and literatures 8.Other temples of prominence 9.Links 10.Advice to other contributors on how to add information.

I request readers to kindly suggest any changes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avinashsashee (talk • contribs) 08:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Kartik

Murugan is widely worshipped as "Kartik" (কার্তিক) in Bengal. I think this needs to be highlighted. -Trinanjon Basu (talk) 10:56, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

THIRUMURUKAATRUPPADAI

The worship of Murugan is older than this text. Nakkeeran the author of this poem was a Brahmin.

This article tries to portray Murugan as an exclusive Tamil God. This is not true. Murugan is worshiped throughout India under different names. Skanda Purana is one of the well known Puranas. Kumara Sambhva by Kalidasa is one of the well known poems of Sanskrit literature. Sankarrukku (talk) 02:00, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I've read the entire article. I came to it looking for a brief statement of why Murugan was worshiped. I didn't find it.Instead I found an overwhelming, for me, collection of details about Murugan. Sort of like ten pages of details about the earth's moon, but leaving out, the moon is an object in the sky which goes around the earth. The first two paragraph of the article illustrate my point, giving me many details, but not the overview I was looking for.----

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Mixed Identity

It must be noted that Murugan worshipped by Tamils belongs to native Dravidian Tamil pantheon and not Vedism.This idol later absorbed into Sanskrit ritual after Sanskrit/Vedic Hinduism gain influence in medieval Tamil country.Kartikeya which is worshipped in other parts of India might be a totally a different idol or Murugan might be absorbed as Kartikeya into Vedic Hinduism same like Shiva,Durga,Indra and Kali which were initially Dravidian tribal god later assimilated as Aryan/Vedic gods.This article can be split into 2 different articles,there must be no question regarding Dravidian/Tamil identity of this idol same like Rama who was portrayed as Aryan Khastriyas.It is also noted that the method use to worship Muruga is still based on Ancient Dravidian religion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajendra Prasath Arumon (talk • contribs) 16:15, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Number of Arms

How many arms and hands does Murugan have. I count 8 on the image accompanying this article. As he has 6 heads you would expect 12. 94.211.162.42 (talk) 09:26, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Please update Murugan is the god of Tamils and tamil language.He was celebrated in all tamil ancient literatures.Till date Murugan is the most celebrated and worshipped among tamils. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Padmanaban.nitthwl (talk • contribs) 09:23, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Tamil God

Please update Murugan is the god of Tamils and tamil language.He was celebrated in all tamil ancient literatures.Till date Murugan is the most celebrated and worshipped among tamils. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Padmanaban.nitthwl (talk • contribs) 09:25, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

File:Murugan by Raja Ravi Varma.jpg to appear as POTD

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Murugan by Raja Ravi Varma.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on June 3, 2013. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2013-06-03. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:43, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Murugan
Murugan, also known as Kartikeya, is the Hindu war god, worshiped particularly by Tamil Hindus. Murugan has a peacock as a mount and is often depicted with six heads and twelve arms holding a variety of weapons. His consorts, pictured here, are Valli and Deivayanai.Painting: Raja Ravi Varma
Archive – More featured pictures...

Move to Murugan

Karthik.raman 08:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC): Why is the article Murukan and not Murugan. The most commonly used spelling is Murugan (just google and compare the hits for Muruga(n) vs. Muruka(n)). I opine that this article be moved to Murugan.

Yes, I too wonder why this article is titled Murukan. As far as I know, Murugan is derived from Tamil word Murugu (முருகு), which means beauty. Murukan (முருக்கன்) could mean something different. Murugan is also the standard pronunciation and popular spelling. -srini 15:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Murukan is முருகன் in tamil and not முருக்கன் (Murukkan). I guess the creator of the page named it 'Murukan' because 'ka' and 'ga' are written in Tamil using the same letter (க).Raghav Sharman (talk) 08:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Raghav Sharman

Why use a regional name for pan indian deity

It is well known that the hindu deity mentioned in this article is a pan indian deity.why are we using a regional name like Murugan.when probably the most popular pan indian name for him is Kartikeya.views of other editors on this issue would be appreciated. Pernoctator (talk) 12:10, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I was wondering about that too. Hinduism comes from the people who wrote Sanskrit, an IE language, so why would the article about a Hindu deity be title by the name he bears in a Dravidian language? What is truly the most common name for this character? --Svartalf (talk) 11:53, 9 December 2012 (UTC)


I have a few points to make: 1. It hasn't been established that Hinduism came to Dravidians from Aryans. Among the worshippers of this Deity, the majority calls him Murugan (this can be inferred from this article, given the knowledge about the spread of Hinduism east of India due to the action of Tamil Kings). 2. It hasn't been established that Sanskrit is older than Tamil, so it is possible that the word 'Murugan' is older than 'Karttikeya'. 3.'Karttikeya' was a name given to him because he was first spotted and cared for by six women representing 'Krttika', the Pleiades. Names like this are not the real names of people. This can be inferred from Sanskrit Literature. Here are a few examples to support this: kunti -> kaunteya (This can refer to any son of (actually anyone "from") any woman named Kunti. In Mahabharata, Kunti had 6 sons, whose original names were Arjuna, Bheema, Yudhishthira, Nakula, Sahadeva and Karna.) kuru -> kaurava (Can refer to any descendant of Kuru; in specific it refers to the 101 sons of Dhrtarashtra) daksha -> dAkshAyinee (Goddess Sati is called so because she was Daksha's daughter.) drupada -> draupadi (KrsnA was called so because she was Drupada's daughter) 'Murugan' is thus more genuine as the name of the God than 'Karttikeya' is. Raghav Sharman (talk) 09:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Aryan and Dravidian are not racial terms,and Sanskrit has been established as oldest surviving language..moreover aryans and Dravidians(linguistic groups) racially belong to Mediterranean branch of Caucasoids.deities akin to murugan are mentioned in Vedas and the indus valley,so regional name as well as sanskrit name must be used.

I come from Goa(which is normally equated with Catholicism though Hindus are majority) were Kartikeya is worshiped as Dandapaani and Vairaagi dev... the deity is not only of tamil origin,war gods like murugan were once worshiped all over India.. restricting him to Tamil Nadu is like saying Shiva is a north Indian God. Moreover the tamil name murugan is also an adjective,what about that? So are other words for for Gods,eg Shiva,is also an adjective.Nijgoykar (talk)

You said "Aryan and Dravidian are not racial terms,and Sanskrit has been established as oldest surviving language". Please provide citations for the same. Neither Wikipedia nor any external link provided in Wikipedia (to the best of my knowledge) supports this claim. About names of Gods, it depends on how you trace the root - Since Vedic Sanskrit is a complex and tricky language, it is possible to have nouns that can be traced to different roots which when retraced lead to adjectives. 'Shiva' is also a noun. 'Shivoaham', for example, uses 'Shiva' as a noun (शिवॊऽहम् is split as शिवः अहम् in visarga sandhi-vichchhedam). If you look at any Sanskrit scripture, be it a Purana or Itihasa, it won't give the real name of any person as " of <person/people> " (i have provided examples of words of this format above), which is what is meant by words like Kartikeya. 'Shiva' can't be expressed in this form, which is why there shouldn't be any problem in accepting 'Shiva' as a noun when there is a problem in accepting 'Kartikeya' as a noun. Shiva, Kartikeya, etc. are Hindu Gods; they are restricted by religion and not by language. Raghav Sharman (talk) 18:43, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 13:15, 3 July 2014 (UTC)


Murugan → Kartikeya – Murugan is popular epithet of the god, but is restricted to Tamils. Kartikeya is pan-Hindu deity, while Murugan is his regional Tamil name, not used by other Hindus. So, the article should to be moved to Kartikeya, which is also used by Tamils. Redtigerxyz Talk 11:47, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

  • Support move to a more common and widely used name. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 03:27, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Lead image

The article had the File:Murugan by Raja Ravi Varma.jpg, a FP in English wikipedia, as the lead since 2011. As per the criteria, it was a community WP:CONSENSUS that it "Adds significant encyclopedic value to an article". The FP significantly evaluates the EV. The MOS:LEADIMAGE should be a representative image. File:Murugan by Raja Ravi Varma.jpg is by Raja Ravi Varma, who is known for his accurate representations of Hindu iconography and the image captures the most important elements of Kartikeya's iconography: the six heads, twelve arms, peacock, spear etc, which is described in ancient scriptures like the Skanda Purana, the Mahabharata as well as the Tamil Kanda Puranam. File:A collage of Kartikeya Skanda Murugan Subramaniyam images.jpg: The collage has so small images that the iconography is not visible in either of the 3 images. Without a consensus to remove File:Murugan by Raja Ravi Varma.jpg and replace it with a collage, we should not overrule a community consensus. --Redtigerxyz Talk 16:04, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Redtigerxyz: That community consensus applies in wikimedia, but not in wikipedia. Sister projects have different guidelines and contexts. The problem with that lead image is that it is misleading and violates NPOV guideline. In a majority of historic representations across South and Southeast Asia, the iconography of Kartikeya / Skanda has one face, not six. NPOV is a core wikipedia policy. The FP guidelines of wikimedia do not exempt wikipedia's NPOV. There is no such community consensus in wikipedia to exempt NPOV, just because people voted a particular image as an FP in an image competition or otherwise at wikimedia, to the best of my knowledge. Do you have a reliable source for your "accuracy-iconography" claims with respect to Raja Ravi Varma in general, or for Kartikeya? You seem to be mistaken, or that is not the general consensus that I am aware of. But, if you have an RS for that claim, I would review it and get back to you. I have no objection to showing the FP image in the main article where the 6-face version is discussed. But the lead image should be NPOV or what represents the spirit of the WP:LEAD guidelines. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:55, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
As a compromise, how about using the Batu Caves image in the lead, and moving the six head FP to the section where that iconography is discussed or mentioned? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 19:51, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
Ms Sarah Welch, This is a English Wikipedia FP also. I am okay with the second proposal.--Redtigerxyz Talk 05:40, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Requested to Move to "Murugan"

I wonder why the article Murugan is move to here. Murugan is the most popular name of this deity and it is widely used by Hindus. Here I would like to highlight why it is appropriate to move this article to the original article Murugan.
1. His six most important shrines in India (Arupadaiveedu temples) named by Murugan (not by Kartikeya) temple and all are located in Tamil Nadu.
2. Almost all other important shrines outside India, also called by Murugan temple, not by Kartikeya temples.
3. Most of the followers are referring this deity as Murugan in Sri Lanka, Mauritius, Malaysia, Singapore, Canada and Reunion Iceland.

Also, this Kartikeya article is always referring as Murugan in almost all the places.
So are we going to change all this reference or based on Wikipedia's guidelines in naming an article WP:COMMONNAME, are we going to change this article Kartikeya to Murugan??

Can we move this article Kartikeya to Murugan?

Shayanthan Kanaganayagham (talk) 16:48, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Oppose Though Kartikeya is a very important in Tamil culture, where he is known popularly (common name) as Murugan and has a cult following in Tamil people and Tamil diaspora in Sri Lanka, Mauritius, Malaysia, Singapore, Canada and Reunion Iceland; Kartikeya is not a regional Tamil god; but a pan-Hindu god. The name Murugan is never used by other Hindus, however "Kartikeya" (his WP:COMMONNAME in all Hindus) is used by all Hindus, including Tamils. --Redtigerxyz Talk 13:18, 16 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Pro The standard name "Murugan" is not only used by Tamils but also by other Hindus in Malaysia, Singapore, Mauritius, Reunion and other countries. "Kartikeya" is not more common than "Murugan" or "Skanda".Vatasura (talk) 03:11, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
"other Hindus in Malaysia, Singapore, Mauritius, Reunion" are Tamils. They are the Tamil diaspora. --Redtigerxyz Talk 07:09, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Redigerxyz - Is Sanskrit accepted by all Indians? Then why Sanskrit is spoken by less than 20,000 people in world. Tamil is Spoken by 8 crore plus people. Sanskrit Chauvinism is happening in Muruga Page as well as Shiva page (etymology).

"Tamils are not the only Hindus there, there are many other ethnic groups who worship Lord Murugan. "Batumalai Sri Muruga Perumal Kovil" (Batu cave) is the best example.--Vatasura (talk) 03:10, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
"The first mention of the god is present in a tamil text Tolkappiyam, where he is referred to as Murugan or Seyyon. This article must therefore be renamed to Murugan going by the History".Indianphysicist (talk) 18:58, 3 September 2015‎ (UTC).

Murugan is the most popular name of this deity.[1] Was the name changed, just because it is a Tamil name? What is wrong with a Tamil name, when Murugan is oft referred as "Tamil Kadavul" (meaning "God of Tamils") and is worshiped primarily in areas with Tamil Influences?--Vatasura (talk) 00:30, 22 March 2016 (UTC).

Yes all your documents aree correct. Name should be moved to Murugan. Karthikeyan should redirect to Murugan. Sanskrit is entirely spoken by 20,000 people in world. Whereas Tamil is spoken by 7.5 crore people. And they search for this by the page Murugan and not Karthikeyan. There is Tamil identity demolish going everywhere in wikipedia. Wikipedia is used as a Sanskrit marketing platform. --Kavitha Swaminathan (talk) 21:24, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 21 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved TonyBallioni (talk) 03:29, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Kartikeya → Murugan – In the previous move request, the reason given for moving the article is that Kartikeya is a pan-Indian name, while Murugan is not. This is not a valid rationale for moving, we should look tof the global usage of the name rather than Indian usage, which wasn't proven with sources. Google ngram shows that the name Murugan is more common.Tertiary sources like Britannica use Murugan and also treat Murugan and Kartikeya as 2 deities who merged together in history. The previous move rationale was more like WP:IDONTLIKEIT rather than a true rationale. 86.97.131.126 (talk) 13:22, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Oppose : As per sources 1(Shiva purana) 2, Kartikeya is the name given to him at his birth and also Kartikeya is the most prominent name which is widlely and commonly used all over India including South India. Majority of the sources 123 clearly identified him as Kartikeya and gave his other names as Skanda, Murugan and Subrahmanya. As per sources Murugan is the name regional to only Tamil Nadu and parts where Tamil population is more. The same God is called by Subrahmanya in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and even in parts of Tamil Nadu. I doubt whether decision needs to be taken based on Googles Ngrams results, based on the fact that Murugan is most common boy name given in Tamil Nadu and When I searched google books, majority of books have authors and persons named as Murugan. I beileve saying Both Katikeya and Murugan as different deities is just a claim, as Majority of the articles say as both are one and same. We can have a separate discussion on this if needed.agasthyathepirate(talk) 04:42, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
None of those sources qualify WP:RS. The Shiva Purana is written in Sanskrit and would obviously use the Sanskrit term Kartikeya. It is also a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE. Stop treating the deity as a person. Hinduism is a religion with many texts contradicting each other, so don't consider the Shiva Purana to be correct, other legends and folklore worship him as Murugan. We should be looking to the global usage, not the usage of Indian Hindus, where Murugan is more common. Even Kartikeya is a common Indian Hindu name. If ngram is hard to believe, search for Kartikeya Hindu in GBooks- 6,340 results. Search for Murugan Hindu- 10,700 results. Majority of articles do not consider them to be the same, he is considered to be a merger of 2 deities. Consider the fact that Kartikeya is celibate while Murugan has 2 wifes-Devasena or Devayani and Valli. Also, this and this aren't vandalism. See Britannica. 31.215.192.128 (talk) 13:51, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi, It doesn't matter if the Name is of Sanskrit origin or Tamil Origin. Majority of the articles and books had used the name Kartikeya(Not only Shiva purana) and that shows it is mostly used name. And moreover, I believe a given name by birth will not change with Language :) . You can challenge the sources quoted by me if you feel that they are not valid. No one is treating deity as a person here, my point is to say that Googles Ngram results are not valid source to take decision. You Saying this is not a vandal edit shows your biased nature towards Tamil. agasthyathepirate(talk) 05:16, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Majority of articles and books do not use the name Kartikeya. If ngram is unreliable, see the other link which shows Murugan is more commonly used to refer to the deity. See WP:HISTRS, newspapers and primary sources are not WP:RS. What I mean is that you are constantly referring to a birth, when the deity is supposed to be mythological. Shiva Purana states his name from birth to be Kartikeya, while there are other sources in Tamil (primary) that state his name from birth is Murugan and that he was born to Korravai (not Parvati), again leading to the argument that Murugan and Kartikeya (Skanda, Kumara etc.) are 2 deities. There is no need to dismiss what one text says. Even so, WP:COMMONNAME applies, Murugan is used by academics and journals more than Kartikeya. I am not from Tamil Nadu, Telangana for that matter, thanks for the kind remark. It is not a vandal edit, you should label it as a good faith edit. The Britannica article stands as evidence to that edit. 31.215.192.128 (talk) 08:48, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Hi, I am not only saying it as a name given at birth, but also stated with cited sources that Kartikeya is the commonly used Name than any of his other names. I guess you are confused, both of your statements are quite opposite. In one statement you are saying Murugan is the common name than Kartikeya and in other you are saying both are different deities. It would be better if you are clear with your point whether you are saying that Murugan and Kartikeya are same? or Different? deties and then request for moving or separating article.agasthyathepirate(talk) 10:38, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
You can't cite sources for proving common names, those sources just happen to use the name Kartikeya. I have also shown plenty of sources above which use the name Murugan. Please drop the birth name argument, it is getting us nowhere and we are going around in circles. This article uses a lot of sources that describe Murugan's temples and iconographies, etc (The sources explicitly mention it as Murugan). The article Kartikeya seemed to cover both Murugan and Kartikeya's aspects together in one. Out of these 2 terms, Murugan is more common on a global level. That's why I asked for this article to be moved to Murugan. However, I did a bit of background research myself (see below section) and found that the 2 deities vary in depictions (peacock and vel), consorts (celibate and Devasena (Devayani)/Valli) parents (Shiva + Parvati and Korravai alone), killing (Tarakasura and Surapadma), etc. 31.215.192.128 (talk) 10:59, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment: The Google Ngram is useful, but one which can lead to misleading results. Please note that Murugan is a common human name (see this too). Ngram does not separate Murugan (deity) from Murugan (scholar). Always interpret Ngram data with care. True, Britannica uses Murugan title. But then, Encyclopedia of Ancient Deities by Routledge uses Kartikeya title; while Encyclopedia of Hinduism by Routledge uses Subramanya title; while Illustrated Encyclopedia of Hinduism by Rosen uses Karttikeya title instead! All of these are edited by professors. It would be best to read the comments and reasoning in previous RfCs above and in archive on this. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:40, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Per Redtigerxyz's note below. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

Murugan should be a separate article

While the name Muruguan is used as one of the synonyms for the deity along with Kartikeya, in ancient times and some places today Murugan is a Tamil war deity, distinct from Kartikeya with different parental lineage. For example, Britannica has a separate article on Murugan and Skanda, which clearly shows a distinction between the 2 deities (You know how Britannica is miserly over the number of articles usually). Merriam Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions also states the fact that Murugan and Kartikeya are distinct from each other. @Ms Sarah Welch: Since you primarily edit topics around religions including Hinduism, what do you think of this? Should the article be spilt or moved? 31.215.192.128 (talk) 09:10, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

See my comment above. Yes Britannica indeed splits the coverage, but its Murugan article is tiny and Skanda (Alternative Titles: Kārttikeya, Kumāra, Subrahmaṇya) longer. It says, "He was later identified in part with the North Indian war god Skanda", which is not same as "clearly shows a distinction". Our challenge with two articles is the WP:CFORK issues, which we must avoid per wikipedia policies. @Redtigerxyz: your thoughts? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:40, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
Murugan is no more the son of Korravai of the Sangam; he has become the son of Shiva and Parvati and has incorporated the legends of Kartikeya. The peacock, the six heads, the common epithets like Subrahmnaya, Kumara, Skanda, Kartikeya are common features. Considering the review of literature by Ms Sarah Welch and current status of the deity, in my opinion this article should not be split. Splitting for example for Kataragama deviyo, the Sri Lankan, Hindu-Buddhist version of Skanda-Murugan is fine as the identity of the deity has changed and has Buddhist facets to it. I fear WP:CFORK issues on splitting Murugan; also there will be article linking battles on many articles - which article Murugan or Kartikeya be linked. Redtigerxyz Talk 12:31, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
+1, Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:41, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Split to Murugan

@Redtigerxyz and Ms Sarah Welch: One user is going hysterical over splitting this article, it's not me, I am the IP above, sorry for the late response, by that time the discussion had closed. I have provided solutions to the problems raised above. The article could be spilt by avoiding WP:FORK issues, anything Britannica can do, we can do too. Murugan in the context should refer to the ancient Tamil war deity, not the current Murugan which is used as a synonym for Kartikeya after the historical merge. To get what I am actually intending to say, I will take the example of Rudra - Shiva, while Rudra in present times is associated with Shiva, he may have been a distinct deity in the past time. Another example will be of Heracles and Hercules, the latter is often associated with the former. The ancient deity is distinct from Kartikeya, before a major merger of the 2 deities occurred, scholars have a general consensus that Murugan originated first and later merged with North god traits. At all times, Kartikeya should be the article linked to unless we are referring to the ancient Tamil deity, for example - "The Hindu deity Kartikeya is identified in part with Murugan, an ancient Tamil war god," here, Murugan should be linked. Info should be specific, without stepping into the Kartikeya details, ie.

  • Murugan was an ancient agamic Tamil war deity worshipped in Sangam age.
  • Murugan was the son of the war goddess Korravai.
  • Murugan was depicted as a red colored deity with a Vel.
  • Tamil literature involving Murugan.
  • Devayani (Devasena) and Valli - Wives of Murugan
  • Battles with local asura Surapadman, who too was later absorbed as Tarakasur's brother.
  • Historical absorption of Murugan into Skanda/Kartikeya
  • Murugan in popular culture.

None of these above information is covered in Kartikeya article except for 2 sentences somewhere in Etymology, I guess. All this content, sourced using reliable sources, would be large enough to warrant an article. Tl;Dr- The ancient deity isn't the same as the modern term used synonymously for Kartikeya, leading to confusion. What do you guys think now? 2.51.17.85 (talk) 17:04, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

2.51.17.85: Welcome back. A better approach may be to first expand the "In Tamil Literature" section and the "Theology:South India" section. Redtigerxyz and others have made some compelling arguments on all this, so I must meditate on what you add in light of those arguments and whether Murugan (ancient) WP:SPINOFF might be justified. For now, please consider starting by carefully expanding and improving this article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:14, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Consort/ wife

Hi all, I would suggest to use the word consorts instead of wives in the last paragraph of the Legends Section. --Luminarywordsmith (talk) 09:49, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Request to challenge this article (the article shows wrong information)

Why is this article is referring to the search made for MURUGAN? as murugan is the popular name and not karthikeya then WHY people who searches for murugan are redirected here? i found most of the names are wrongly used here, as the wife of lord murugan is "DEIVANAI" not DEVASENA, and there is no evidence for the name devasena. the weapon of murugan is only VEL, no-where in any temple he is seen with bow and arrow. and very important thing to notice is lord murugan was born to shiva for the reason to kill "SURAPADMAN" not TARAKASUR, because tarakasuran is younger brother of surapadman. Everything in this article is showing the influence of sanskrit, starting with the names of the persons to the literature shown here. I think the author, or the person who has privilege to this article is trying to show the sanskrit patriotism. Lord murugan is worshipped predominently among the TAMIL people's and they all only know the common name MURUGAN and not karthikeya, infact the name karthikeya itself shows the sanskrit patriotism verywell (it is karthikeyan not karthikeya). only in north he is known as karthikeya. the story which is told here is never know to any people, i don't know from where they got this story. as per the understanding Lord murugan is born from the third eye of shivan. most important thing to notice is nowhere there is any reference of the important form of worshiping murugan by singing "kandha sasti kavasam". Is it because it was written in tamil? this article clearly shows that it was written/edited by Sanskrit Chauvinist. Either this article should be removed or it should be challenged. I beleive wikipedia is responsible for providing correct information to the people and not this!!!!!!

Certainly. I support the statement above. First This article never represent Lord Murugan and the pictures of Lord Murugan to be removed and article shall be retained as Karthikeya.

You cannot commonize the Gods of different races as such. Lord Murugan is not worshiped by North Indians and so as Karthikeya not worshiped in South. The name Karthikeya is not even one of the Six mainforms of Lord Murugan. So how come you can tell Lord Murugan is Karthikeya. Secondly as said in the above, The Bow and Arrow represent only "Rama" of Ramayana and the Weapon of Lord Murugan is only "Vel". He is God of Kurinji(land of mountains), People of Kurinji used only "Vel" for hunting. Bow and Arrow is the weapon of "mullai" land people i.e. Forests. So God represent Forest is Mayon, different from Murugan. Refer. "Poetic Attributes of the Landscapes" in the wiki page [landscape] You can find the locations of all Six Temples are in [Nadu]. So Karthikeyan is not related to Lord Murugan. Better to have separate pages for Lord Murugan & Karthikeyan. Whoever wants to write about Lord Murugan & Karthikeyan in the respective pages. Then you will find the difference of these both.

In Shinto gods of Japanese, Ōyamatsumi[[2]] is god of Mountains and War same as Lord Murugan. Whether you can tell Ōyamatsumi & Lord Murugan are one and same?? MMSSRohin (talk) 06:04, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Legends

With reference to the book The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Hinduism: N-Z By James G. Lochtefeld Please reconfirm the author's perspective on hinduism and his choice of words which may sound demeaning and offensive to certain cultures. The original author of the book has termed as the "union" of Shiva & Parvati as making love. The author of this wikipedia has chosen his/her words to describe union as "sex". Both authors may sound offensive to the worshippers.

  • James G. Lochtefeld (2002). The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Hinduism: N-Z. The Rosen Publishing Group. ISBN 978-0-8239-3180-4. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

--Luminarywordsmith (talk) 17:53, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

I would also like the team to review this comment on the origin of the name

https://www.quora.com/Why-was-Lord-Kartikeya-named-Skanda-What-is-the-meaning-of-Skanda-in-Sanskrit

--Luminarywordsmith (talk) 18:19, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Jain deity Naigamesa

The text states "According to Asko Parpola, the Jain deity Naigamesa, who is also referred to as Hari-Naigamesin, is depicted in early Jain texts as riding the peacock and as the leader of the divine army, both symbols of Kartikeya". I have not seen that (please see [https://www.google.com/search?q=Hari-Naigamesin&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS743US745&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi3i9GPsrndAhWq6oMKHf7gCSkQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1105&bih=685 Hari-Naigamesin images]. The god is shown with the head of a deer. See Naigamesha. Malaiya (talk) 01:59, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Naming convention

The primary name for the deity is Murugan and the deity is mainly worshipped by Tamils around the globe. The name Kartikeya mentioned here do not represent the way the deity is worshipped in reality and it seems Pan-Indian identity politics is showing its ugly face here again and even the name Kartikeya is mentioned although the cited reference is with the original Murugan name. Apart from that, the deity has its origin even in pre-sangam age era where he was worshipped even before the vedic based hinduism enters the Tamil region, as such the naming convention does not justifies the reality, for arguments regarding the worship outside Tamil area, it is largely insignificant to the extend of changing the primary name of the deity.--Karthikan Pillai (talk) 04:56, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Tamil God listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Tamil God. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Abote2 (talk) 10:16, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Please add Ghati Subramanya as a famous temple in Karnataka. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghati_Subramanya Kvvpash (talk) 04:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 09:01, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

kRtikA -> kArtikeya

kArtikeya is a vRddhi of kRtika

Examples of vRddhis in saMskRta

kunti -> kaunteya
rAdhA -> rAdheya
Rta -> Arta
veda -> vaidika
purANa -> paurANika

Page name change from Kartikeya to Muruga for discussion

Supporting changing the name of the page back to Muruga (or murugan) - yet still have the other names and redirects such as Kartikeya, Subramanya etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.44.166 (talk) 13:49, 6 August 2020 (UTC)


The page original name earlier was Muruga, a tamil word. This was mischievously changed to sanskrit word kartikeya. Sanskrit is promoted by a group of chauvnist people. They are fudging most wikipedia pages related to India, Indian gods and Culture. wikipedia. Here are the facts to change name back to muruga

1) Tamil speaker are 69,026,881 and sanskrit speakers are 24,821 in India alone 2) In google trends kartikeya is almost zero compared to muruga which is searched very highly 3) Check references mentioned in main article. Mostly temple name itself is named as Murugan temple, followed by kandha, subramania swam temples etc. Nowhere it is mentioned as kartikeya temple.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Kavitha Swaminathan (talk • contribs) 19:07, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Where was Murugan born? What are the sources for Murugan's history, family background, etc? How many scriptures refer to Shiva's son as Murugan? Nittawinoda (talk) 19:53, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Tamil god name is murugan , if Wikipedia should change the title to murugan Tamil1986 (talk) 05:58, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:06, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 1 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: (non-admin closure) NOT MOVED User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 00:09, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

There is a lot of text, but no registered editors have been convinced by the arguments presented by the nominator. There are at least 5 names in somewhat common use for this deity, with various linguistic and cultural distinctions that are not explained in the article. I recommend editors who personally prefer a different name focus on improving that content first. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 00:09, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Kartikeya → Murugan – Murugan is the common name for this Tamil deity. Britannica has it titled as Murugan and not Kartikeya, Kartikeya does not even find a mention in the same Britannica article, that mentions Skanda as the alternate name of Murugan, I belive Britannica has got it right and Wikipedia should do the same. Searching for Murugan on Google gave Seven times more results than the number of results for Kartikeya. In literature also Murugan is more common than Kartikeya. Temples of this deity around the world (Malaysia, USA etc) are known as Murugan temple. Following Wikipedia's WP:COMMONNAME policy this should be renamed to Murugan. Venkat TL (talk) 12:55, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

  • Comment. Various localities in India have their own names in their own language and their own traditions to what is considered roughly the same deity; we shouldn't privilege the Tamil language term without a good reason. Also, Britannica isn't what Wikipedia takes its cues from, but if we did, "Kartikeya" is actually at https://www.britannica.com/topic/Skanda "Skanda" there, which Britannica considers separate from the Murugan article. In other words, this might be an argument for a split, but not to move the current article. Is there non-Britannica evidence that "Murugan" is more common in English? SnowFire (talk) 17:23, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
    • The Google hits of the term Murugan is seven times than that of Kartikeya. That is enough argument to rename the page. Venkat TL (talk) 17:42, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
      • Murugan (surname) is a common last name, and to my knowledge that isn't true of Kartikeya, so I don't know if this says much about the term for the god. It certainly seems possible that many/most of those Murugan hits are about people with that name rather than the god. SnowFire (talk) 18:54, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
        • I hope you are aware that Muhammad is also a common surname. Did that stop Wikipedia? Venkat TL (talk) 18:57, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
        • SnowFire, I forgot to point out that you are wrong on last name, because Kartikeya is a common last name as well. see Kartikeya Gummakonda, Kartikeya Sharma and many more that you can find by searching on Wikipedia. --Venkat TL (talk) 06:52, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
          • I guess we're not getting anywhere with this, so will upgrade to oppose if you can't offer a better reason why Murugan is more common. Muhammad is totally off-topic here. My point was simply that the raw GHits on "Murugan" cover both websites/articles talking about people with the last name as well as websites/articles talking about the god, which inflates the views compared to "Kartikeya" (presumably mostly the god). I'm willing to change my vote if you can show the god, specifically, is usually referred to as Murugan, but you need a better source than a simple google test for the reasons I just described. SnowFire (talk) 19:20, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
    Britannica has an article titled Skanda and not Kartikeya, that also speaks volumes. Venkat TL (talk) 05:38, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
          • Where is your reason that Kartikeya is more common. I have already given good reasons and you failed to rebut them, threw a couple of strawman's and then claimed not good enough. You can use any metric, You will always find Murugan to be the more popular word for this deity. Venkat TL (talk) 06:13, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Where are these "good reasons"? I'm not currently opposed to a move but you need to provide proof that Murugan is more common than both the other alternatives and so far all you've done is cited raw Google hits, which has been explained is not a good metric as it includes everything else called Murugan too. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 21:12, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
  • I have said in the opening statement. Check Murugan on Google it gave Seven times more results than the number of results for Kartikeya. Why dont you do your own due diligence and check which is the more popular title. Or why Wikipedia should keep this article on the less popular title. This deity is popular among people who call him Murugan. Those who call him Kartikeya rarely worship him. Venkat TL (talk) 05:54, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Ngrams chart showing the comparative prevalence of the names 'Murugan' and 'Kartikeya' in Google books between 1980 and 2019
"Check Google on Murugan" – as multiple people have already explained, Google hits aren't a useful metric here.
"Why dont [sic] you do your own due diligence" – Because you're the one who has opened the RM, not me
"A comparison of actual usage of the two names in books" – OK, now we're getting somewhere, but you'll still be picking up hits for authors and people called Murugan. A better search would be Murugan+god vs Kartikeya+god or Murugan+deity vs Kartikeya+deity, which show a pretty even usage for both names. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 10:51, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Murugan temple vs Kartikeya temple in Google books
"... but you'll still be picking up hits for authors and people called Murugan.". Indeed, but that is also the case for people named Kartikeya, where people named Kartikeya will be included in the results. See my comment above about people named Kartikeya. So Murugan is the common name despite considering all these exceptions.
Your searches with god and deity did not get us anywhere, but here is the query for Murugan temple, Kartikeya temple and it shows similar trends like the one above, confirming the case for a rename to Murugan. Venkat TL (talk) 11:22, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
    • I also support to change this name to Muruga. Most people in Kerala and Karnataka also refer to this deity as Murugan. Here is a refernce to Tamil literature which says about 108 names to Lord Murugan which includes shanmuka, karthikega, etc.

https://nriol.com/indianparents/lord-muruga.asp https://aanmeegam.co.in/blogs/lyrics/108-murugar-names-tamil/ If possible include this aswell in the article.

Even In Malaysia, Singapore, Sri Lanka and elsewhere, Murugan is very prominently known. Even pictures, names of places, everything is known by Murugan. It is better to put both tamil and sanskrit over lead in first line to avoid confusion. I think this is better option. 157.49.173.199 (talk) 13:16, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

My point-wise responses comments were reverted as "deface" [4]. I am reproducing the same as below:
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lord Skanda's marital status

Many people debate whether Skanda was a bachelor or a married God. The Mahabharata says that the daughter of Indra and Shachi, Devasena married Skanda. Kanda Puranam (The Tamil version of Skanda Purana) says that Skanda married Valli. But some believe that he is a bachelor. Can someone solve this debate? 59.92.137.83 (talk) 09:53, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

This is not a debate club. Please read WP:NOTFORUM. Wikipedia article only reports what is published in reliable source. If there are conflicting reports both are included. Venkat TL (talk) 12:45, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Proposal to address Kartikeya as Murugan

I'm proposing a new guideline for any editors of this article where Kartikeya should be addressed as Murugan. Lord Murugan also known by thousands of other names is the primary the Saiva Hindu deity of Tamils. For Tamils he is Tamil kadavul Murugan meaning God of Tamil people. He is worshiped by almost all Tamil Hindus all over the world. All his major Temples (Aru Padaiveedu) that has historical significance is located in Tamil Nadu. No other community in this world rever him as much as Tamils do. Tamils build Temples for him, many number of Tamils publish poems and Hymns (Thiruppugal and other poems) in Tamil language for him, and Tamils have a unique way of celebrating him which includes, Kavadi Attam, Pal Kudam(Milk pot), Ther (Temple chariot) Festivals dedicated to him, Pathayathirai (spiritual walks made by Tamil devotees for Lord Muruga) etc. He has mentions in Sangam Literature, and he has extensive list of poems and hymns only written in Tamil language by a Tamil. Now compare this to North India (Kartikeya), their contribution to his worship and literature is negligible.

I do respect the North Indian version of Kartikeya. And I support any information about him that is historically from North India (including West Bengal, Nepal etc) can be addressed as Kartikeya. And anything else apart from that should be addressed as Murugan. This is because of immense contribution of Tamils for their primary deity Lord Muruga. Compared to what we (Tamils) have done for Murugan (Including our unique way or worship, building Murugan Temples all over the world, and poems and hymns about him in Tamil literature) the Non Tamil speaking people's worship and contribution is negligible.

Remember he not a North Indian God and anything about Hinduism does not automatically mean it is part of India or North India. India is a very modern term and only existed since 1947. The are more devotees who ardently worship him as Muruga than Kartikeya. As he is ardently and primarily worshiped by Tamil community it is only fair and respectful to address him primarily as Murugan in this article if not for anything but for the deep devotion tamils show for him. Muruganadimai (talk) 19:55, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

  • Strong oppose. Nothing presented here gives any indication of things changing since the requested move, and the username indicates a likely lack of neutrality in this matter. —C.Fred (talk) 19:57, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
    I have not requested to Move the page (which was an earlier request by Venkat) my request is to address him primary Murugan in the article than Kartikeya. My username does not have to say anything about my Neutrality. And your logic is regarding that is so dumb. Please put a valuable points on why you " Strongly oppose". What are the contributions of North Indian worship for Kartikeya as Murugan? Any new temples built for him under the Name of Kartikeya around the world? How many poems and hymns in praise of Kartikeya or Murugan written by North Indians or Non Tamils?
    Compare all these with what we Tamils have done for Lord Murugan and then put your unbiased opinion.
    I reject your opinions on the previous comment. And you strong opposition does not have a weightful counter argument. Muruganadimai (talk) 20:14, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
      • Thank you for declaring your conflict of interest with this subject. —C.Fred (talk) 20:16, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
        I have not declared any conflict of interest here. All i said is your assumption about my username is dumb. I have given enough information on why the page should be addressed as Murugan than Kartikeya which primarily relates to immense contribution of Tamils.
        Your reason for rejection is nothing but biased and baseless. You have put no counter arguments to why the page should be primarily addressed as Kartikeya instead of Murugan. All i can see your pure arrogance and no valid and meaningful counter arguments. I don't know how you got qualified as a moderator. Muruganadimai (talk) 20:25, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
        @Muruganadimai: You used the phrase "we Tamils", which indicates a bias at the least and likely a connection to the subject. If you would prefer, I can go to WP:ANI to get an uninvolved admin to look at your statements, your personal attacks, and your canvassing in this matter. —C.Fred (talk) 20:32, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
        I don't believe in saying "we Tamils" is baised. I'm putting an argument with so many valid points and read my first proposal/comment (Like all the things Tamils do for Lord Murugan and compare that with what North Indians have done for him) and your counter argument has nothing and is baseless. Build a strong counter argument that outweighs mine rather than just simply opposing based on your assumptions. Muruganadimai (talk) 20:41, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
        The Manual of Style is clear that in most cases, the title of the article is also the name that should be used for the subject throughout the article. I'm not seeing why this article warrants an exception. —C.Fred (talk) 20:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
        This article warrants an exemptions because the contributions of Tamils to the protagonist of this page, Lord Murugan. In fact, I did not ask for the changing Title of url to Murugan at this time. All i want is it should be addressed primarily as Murugan including the first word in the first paragraph(lead). This is nothing but a respect for contributions of Tamils for Lord Murugan. Tamils are the one who primarily worship him. He is know to the rest of the world through Tamils. From Sangam Literature to Thirupugal composed by Arunagirinathar (a poet in Vijayanagara Era) and perest day literary works for Murugan by tamils are in Tamil Language and Tamils primarily address him as Murugan than any other name. Take all the works (literary works) and forms of worships for Murugan/ Kartikeya the majority of them are my Tamils and in Tamil language for who the tamil people as their beloved Tamil god: Murugan.
        I wish you will be a unbiased moderator. Look through my arguments and see if you can agree. If you don't agree then put why you strongly oppose with a valid counter arguments. Muruganadimai (talk) 20:56, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
        @Muruganadimal: As Redtigerxyz stated in the last requested move, "Kartikeya is a pan-Indian (subcontinent) deity. The name is used from Nepal in the North to Tamil country in the South. Murugan is an exclusive Tamil name." By that same logic, it makes the most sense to use a consistent name rather than switching name according the context and confusing the reader. —C.Fred (talk) 21:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
        Murugan is a world deity than a Pan-India deity. He has temple built all across the world by Tamils where is addressed primarily as Murugan. Redtigerxyz argument has so many weakness. One, he is a World deity and not just a pan-india deity. He has dedicated temples all over the world including Temples in Australia, North America, Europe, South East Asia and Africa and there he is addressed as Murugan. The number of temples dedicated for him is in Tamil Nadu, a tamil majority land where his is addressed as Murugan)
        User, Redtigerxyz premise was based on the significant hindu population of the North compared to South. But Murugan (or what you call as Kartikeya) is mostly worshiped Tamil people (this is evident from the number of literary works, dedicated temples that were built for him and the unique way of worship Tamils offer to murugan including Kavadi Attam, Pal Kudam (Milk in a pot), Pathayatra (spritiual walk) etc.) The North Indian people does not worship him (by means of building new temples dedicated to him, writing literary works such as poem and hymns for him etc) enough to consider or warrant him as pan- india and be stated here in the name they recognize. Yes, he a deity in North India but he is not primary and his popularity is more among Tamil people than North Indians.
        Thus this page should be primarily addressed as Murugan. Please not i did not ask to remove Kartikeya from entire page. I propose Murugan to be the lead name of the Article and common name to be used in the Article in place of the name Kartikeya.
        Consistency can still be maintained if the name is switched. This page does deserve an exemption and should be addressed as Murugan. Muruganadimai (talk) 21:28, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
        And also, In Nepal (according to what you consider pan-india) he is worshiped as Kumar and not Kartikeya. So that argument fails right there. Muruganadimai (talk) 21:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
        The legend says that Lord Murugan has thousands of names including Kartikeya, Saravana, Shanmuga, Kumara, kandha etc. Out of this the most widely used by his primary followers which is significantly than the North is Murugan. So the lead name of this page should be Murugan and and the murgan should be the common (instead of Kartikeya) throughout article from here on.
        Construct a valid counter argument for all the good points i have given. If not please agree to support the motion to change the name and provide an exception for the article. Muruganadimai (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
        The legend says that Lord Murugan has thousands of names including Kartikeya, Saravana, Shanmuga, Kumara, kandha etc. Out of this the most widely used by his primary followers which is significantly than the North is Murugan. So the lead name of this page should be Murugan and and the murgan should be the common (instead of Kartikeya) throughout article from here on.
        Construct a valid counter argument for all the good points i have given. If not please agree to support the motion to change the name and provide an exception for the article. Muruganadimai (talk) 21:44, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
  • That is not how things work. Also, there is a world outside Tamilnadu. The common name is Kartikeya, and he should be referred as such. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:10, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
    Yes, there is a world outside Tamil nadu and that's why so many temples in Europe, North America, South East Asia, Australia, Africa where he is refreeded as Murugan than Kartikeya. Even in Nepal he referred as Kumar and not Kartikeya. Except Kanda Puranam, what North Indian literary works address him as Kartikeya? What Non-Tamil poems and hymns were written by non tamils that call him Kartikeya? How many temples of worship that is dedicated to this deity was built by Non Tamils under the name of Kartikeya? What form of unique worship you have to call it or warrant it as the "common name" for this deity in this world? You gotta agree with me that Tamils contribution to Lord Muruga is more that what North Indians have done for same god they call as Kartikeya. He is not even a primary deity there. His popularity is clearly with Tamils and vast majority of his followers are Tamils and they primarily address him as Muruga. So yes the name Muruga is common than Kartikeya. And your the common name Kartikeya argument failed.
    Give me legends, poems, hymns that were written by those in the North that could outweigh the number of poems and hymns that was Tamils have written for Murugan. Where is Murugan six main Adobe? So definitely Tamil Nadu is his primary world, right? The history of Lord Murugan is with Tamil people you cannot erase that history. Those who call him Kartikeya in the North India would have more associations with him if he was their primary deity. He certainly a primary deity and most of his followers are Tamils who address him and commonly called as Murugan. So is my argument to address him as Murugan than Kartikeya in this wikipedia article about the same deity. Muruganadimai (talk) 22:48, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
        • It Abode not adobe (typo) If you didn't know all his six main Abodes are in Tamil Nadu. Muruganadimai (talk) 23:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
    It is not about who did what, or who has contributed more. It is about the most used name. Kindly read WP:COMMONNAME. —usernamekiran (talk) 23:27, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
    What is the basis of your assumption that Kartikeya is the common name for this deity? You don't have a valid argument backed with evidence to state Kartikeya is the common name. How do you come to conclusion that Kartikeya is the common name?
    Conversely, my argument backs that Muruga is the most common name throughout the world for this deity and this premise is backed by all the works that is done by his majority of the followers. When majority of his main followers (who are only Tamil Hindus) address him as Murugan then how can Kartikeya be the common name? Anything about Hinduism does not automatically become India's.
    When you look for the basis for a common name you should look for evidence such as literary works (poems, hymns, literature like Sangam) places of worship among other things. My argument that Murugan is the common name is backed by so many evidence. But yours and those who oppose this motion have no valid arguments backed by evidence. Muruganadimai (talk) 23:42, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
I totally support this argument made by Venkat TL (talk) on 5 October 2021 (UTC)
"Where is your reason that Kartikeya is more common. I have already given good reasons and you failed to rebut them, threw a couple of strawman's and then claimed not good enough. You can use any metric, You will always find Murugan to be the more popular word for this deity. Venkat TL (talk) 06:13, 5 October 2021 (UTC)"
Those who oppose this motion does not have a valid argument backed by strong evidence. Inserting Kartikeya in every sentence of this article is nothing but a propaganda by those who want to keep everything about Hinduism to the North India and Hindi speaking population. The concept of India came into existence only after 1947 and historically the deity Lord Murugan is associated with the then Tamilakam (lands ruled by Tamil Kings like Chola, Pandya etc). The legend about Muruga goes back to Sangam Era literature which is one of the oldest in this world. Except Kanda Puranam North Indians doesn't have sufficient literature that backs the worship of Kartikeya as much as Tamils do it Lord Murugan.
Any devotee of Lord Murugan loves all of those thousands of name this deity has got. No devotee opposite existence of his name as Kartikeya and I do not oppose as well. But a page like wikipedia needs the correct version of the most common way how this deity is called all over the world. And how do you conclude the most comment is debate here.
To arrive at a conclusion:
• you look at the evidence of all the historic literatures (Sangam Literatures, Thirupugal) how the sages, gurus and poets such as Agastya, Arunagirinathar, Arumuka Navalar to name a few) referred this god (which is as Murugan) and you look at the temples and its scriptures.
• You look at his major followers who worship him. How could you find his major followers? You looks at the new temples that is dedicated to him gets build all over the world. (which are tamils)
• You look at the major festivals of this deity like Skanda Shasti, Thaipusam etc. Who are the devotees who celebrate this festival? (Mostly tamil hindu people) What is special about this festivals?
Where is the main temples dedicated located for this deity located? It's predonmently in Tamil Nadu. In fact, Tamil Nadu has more temples dedicated to Lord Murugan as the primary deity than the entire rest of India combined. Temples all over the world refer to him as Murugan. How come the so called pan-India deity have more temples than the entire rest of india combined?
To conclude:
It is not true that "Kartikeya is common name" and those you blindly support it does not have enough evidence that outweigh the strong arguments with valid and significant evidence that is presented by those who support that Murugan is the common name. This entire page should be renamed as Murugan as it violates the WP:COMMONNAME policy. At least for now the lead names and the common name of this article should be addressed as Murugan. Muruganadimai (talk) 00:58, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose
    • Regarding argument that Kartikeya - Murugan is most popular and worshipped in Tamil Nadu so the exclusively Tamil name should be used; then should Ganesha be renamed Ganapati because he is the most popular god in Maharashatra than rest of world?? Like Ganesha, Kartikeya is a pan-Hindu deity. Kartikeya-Skanda was a significant deity in the North till around the 5th century BCE to the 6th century, but his worship declined as the principal deity. However, he is still worshipped as a secondary deity in Shiva/Devi/Ganesha temples.
    • "Compared to what we (Tamils) have done for Murugan (Including our unique way or worship, building Murugan Temples all over the world, and poems and hymns about him in Tamil literature) the Non Tamil speaking people's worship and contribution is negligible." This seems as WP:POV pushing. Odisha worships him in pandals on Kartik puja (Kartik poornima), so does Bengal. On Kartik poornima, Marathi women can worship him, which is generally prohibited considering the belief that he is regarded as a bachelor. Kartikeya is also worshipped in Durga Puja.
    • Review of Indian subcontinent/Hindu-related languages; even though Kartikeya is the most popular name in the North, it is used as an epithet in the South. Murugan from Tamil nadu is not used outside the Tamil belt.
      • Assamese, Balinese, Bhojpuri, Bengali, Gujrati, Hindi, Marathi, Maithili, Nepali, Newari, Odia, Sanskrit wikipedia calls Kartikeya/Kartik.
      • Malayalam, Kannada wikipedia calls him Subrahmaniyan.
      • Telugu - Shanmukha
      • Tamil wikipedia calls him Murugan.
  • The users demanding a change in name are welcome to use WP:RM and WP:RFC for the same, rather than indulging WP:Personal attacks.--Redtigerxyz Talk 10:40, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
Not only should the article refer to this god as Murugan, the article also needs to be renamed. In the previous threads and the archived threads, I had made lot of efforts in discussing and trying to explain the mistake and the problem. Some of the existing editors think Murugan is not the popular name they are basing this flawed opinion on cherry picked examples. @Muruganadimai may be getting passionate in his comments but his points are absolutely correct. The talk page archive is full of editors asking for a change but some experienced editors are stonewalling all their voices to keep the article at the wrong page name. It is very unfortunate and wrong for Wikipedia. Venkat TL (talk) 15:10, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

While I am sympathetic to the page being renamed Murugan, I don't see it happening. Wikipedia has this obsolete rule about favouring the original name of the page during conflicts of interest, and the page was, unfortunately, originally titled Kartikeya. A Tamilian should have created this page, but the fact that they didn't means these are the consequences. It is also a valid point that post-assimilation, Murugan has achieved a pan-Hindu identity, and is unlikely to be predominantly be addressed by his true name outside Tamil Nadu. You might also see that Jesus Christ is not referred to by his native Aramaic name on his English Wikipedia title. Chronikhiles (talk) 04:38, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

What is the process to restart the discussion and stop this redirect. very unfortunate that "Murugan" doesn't deserve a wiki page Muthu14 (talk) 13:48, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
Muthu14 create a section named Murugan, Move all the content and reference that are about Murugan into that section. build it up. Similarly create a section of Karthikey eventually it can be split using WP:SPINOFF rule. Venkat TL (talk) 13:52, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
This spinoff was followed to create the Murugan section however. Problem with creating Murugan as a sub-section is that Kerala, Karnataka calls Subrahmanya are claimed as "Murugan" temples, not Kartikeya. Is this WP:POV-pushing?? Kataragama has elements of Skanda, Murugan though a Buddhist temple. References talking of a synthetic Kartikeya-Murugan-Skanda is conviniently come in Murugan section. Revert the POV section for better flow in earlier version of the article.Redtigerxyz Talk 11:21, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
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