Talk:Klagenfurt

Slovenian Name

OK, i accept that there should be the slovenian name of Klagenfurt in the german Wikipedia (because of the slovenian minority), but you don't need it in the english Wiki, because there are already two languages (German and English of course), and you don't need a third one, especially when is not in the official language of the country 80.121.113.16 20:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining yourself. I agree up to a point, as Slovenian is not an official language. I would personally move it further down the article, away from the intro paragraph. --Asterion^talk 20:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I have rephrased the intro, to make it clear it is not an official name for the town. Regards, --Asterion^talk 20:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The original comment seems strange: if Celovec belongs in the German Wikipedia because of the Slovenian minority, doesn't it belong in the English Wikipedia for precisely the same reason? In any event, for some clarification of why Klagenfurt is also Celovec, see Carinthian Plebiscite. Both names have provenance and both names belong in the English Wikipedia (the Wikipedia entry for Celovec redirects to Klagenfurt). In reference to the word "official" as used above, I'm not sure that the comments are accurate, but I'm also not sure that they are inaccurate. 24.178.228.14 (talk) 01:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

And of course Haiders servants, have problems with Slovenian minority again:) Klagenfurt is officialy known as Celovec. In all Slovenian documents regarding Austria, and Klagenfurt, name Celovec is used. You dont need to erase history of Celovec, which was of course Slovenian, until you forged voting results in 10.10.1920 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.149.23.15 (talk) 15:01, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

There are also German Documents for Bratislava where it is called Pressburg, there are documents about Ljubljana in which it is called Laibach... You don't have a point in your argumentation. As you said, the inhabitants of Klagenfurt have voted for Austria (and the Votes were NOT forged - and if they were, now its too late to argue about that) ad against slovenia. And about your "Haider servant"-comment: I really hated Jörg Haider and don't like his followers or any other nationalsocialistic scumbag either, so don't set anyone who just want a correct wiki-entry on a level with such guys if you don't know better! 80.121.91.145 (talk) 15:33, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

What is also interesting is that only Slovene and Bosnian name this city as Celovec. Someone would expect that at least South Slavic languages will use Slavic name for the city, but not. For instance, Croatian uses German name in Latin, Serbian uses both in Cyrillic (Клагенфурт and Целовец), Russian uses German in Cyrillic (Клагенфурт) - but also mentions name in "Bavarian dialect" Klångfurt ~ and Slovene (Целовец). --xJaM (talk) 15:35, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Celovec

There is a number of statements on this page and elsewhere which are definitely not helpful and need clarifying or rectifying.

(i). Of course, since Klagenfurt is called Celovec by the Slovene speaking ethnic group in Carinthia and by the Slovenes in neighbouring Slovenia, stating the name is definitely justified in an English language encyclopedia (= "Circle of education"!). One could, for the sake of completing that "circle", also add the form used in the language of the neighbouring Italian province of Friuli, which is Clanfurt in Furlan, and perhaps even mention as "historic" that in the past occasionally Celowiec occurred in Polish sources.

(ii.) The referendum of Oct. 10, 1920 did NOT include Klagenfurt, which was in "Zone B". Since the majority in "Zone A" had already voted in favour of Austria, there was no referendum in Zone B. The Allied Commission had indeed made some minor changes in the formalities, which were considered irregularities by the SHS side, but these changes did not at all concern the voting. Speaking of "forged voting results" as user 82.149.23.15 does is sheer spiteful nonsense.

(iii.) Although the city's name is, at least in part, a translation from the local Slovene, Klagenfurt, built by German princes in an uninhabited swampy area, was never a Slovene speaking city, yet it was a place to which many Slovenes even from south of the Karawanken/Karavanke mountains went for education at the university-like College of Science of the Carinthian Estates, and later to the Lyceum run by the Jesuits. The fact that Prešer(e)n, the Slovene national poet, worked in a Government office in Klagenfurt did not make the city a Slovene city either.

(iv.) Klagenfurt lies no longer in a mixed-language area, although it borders several mixed-language villages to the south such as Ludmannsdorf-Bilčov. However, Klagenfurt is NOT one of the, I believe, 91 towns, villages, hamlets that officially have a German and a Slovene name. This number is unfairly small as, in each case, it is based upon a local 25 %-Slovene population, but nobody has ever seriously considered including Klagenfurt with its Slovene share of 1.9% according to the 2001 census (Statistik Austria). Of course, providing the capital city of a state where an indigenous ethnic group has longer lived than the majority with an official name in their language would be generous, but Wikipedia strives to be an objective and neutral encyclopedia presenting the facts as they are, doesn'it?

(Kosler's Map - which you may well enlarge!)

(v.)If a user somewhere mentions maps where only the Slovene name Celovec appears - well, the very first such map was by Peter Kosler, in Slovene spelling Peter Kozler, a Slavophile ethnic German from German speaking Gottschee County in Carniola, who in 1848, during the Spring of Nations, produced a fanciful (and obviously provocative) map of the "Slovene lands", a map which was confiscated and for which he even went to prison. This was certainly not fair, but certainly not proof of an "official" capacity of the names on the map, either. And the next all-Slovene atlas was ATLANT for which Matej Cipale invented thousands of Slovene sounding names. Does Veliko morje make the Pacific a Slovene ocean, Gornje jezero, the Lake Superior, a Slovene lake, Modro gorovje, the Blue Mountains in Australia, Slovene mountains, Devin (German Magdeburg) or Jakin (Italian Ancona) Slovene cities???

(vi.) The fact that Slovene documents and maps use only Slovene names does not, of course, make foreign places automatically Slovene. Slovenian Slovenes always speak - and write - of Dunaj (where now more Slovenes live than in Celovec), and Slovene travel agencies promote trips to Carigrad. Carinthian Slovenes, on the other hand, would not know where such a trip might take them. For Non-Slovenes: Dunaj is Vienna, Carigrad is Istanbul/Constantinople.

(vii.) And this example of Carigrad may help to understand why in countries that are not in the immediate neighbourhood of Carinthia only the German name of its capital city is known. In the past Klagenfurt was quite an insignificant place which was hardly talked or written about. If ever such a minor place appears in the media it is so under its official name - and in our case that is "Klagenfurt". Sorry, but international media do NOT generally go by Slovene sources!
@ xJaM: I doubt that Celovec is actually part of Bosnian usage. My father, who was born in Vrbanja near the Bosnian capital of Banjaluka, had never come across it. I should think the term was put in WP by one of the Bosnians having found refuge in Austria: in 1961 there were 2750 people from Bosnia-Hercegowina living in Klagenfurt, 60% more than the number of people speaking Slovene (1722)! (Statistik Austria).

The use of a place name depends on the familiarity with the place itself. In Carinthia Slovenia's capital is generally known as Laibach. Many Germans, however, no longer identify Laibach with Ljubljana, because nowadays far away Ljubljana is much in the news, whereas previous Laibach was much less interesting and talked about. Decades ago I met many Britishers who had learned about a city Aix-la Chapelle, and then there was the Coal and Steel Union and much talk about one Aachen. They had no idea that the two were one and the same. Now it's always Aachen. As a boy I learned of Ragusa, but now hardly anyone would remember that once famous name since everybody goes to Dubrovnik. Ask any non-Italian about Capodistria. Capowhat? Koper is in the news! Only the largest or permanently popular places have retained their foreign or former names: Naples, Florence, Venice, Cologne, Munich. But Fiume, Agram,Ratisbon, Reval, Wilna, or Bathurst in Gambia, Salisbury in Rhodesia?

I should suggest that all present and previous names, native and foreign, of a place or country find their proper place in a WP article, but, as in this case, in brackets and with a qualification wherever necessary. Yet, wherever two official names in different languages exist, both names should be placed in equal size in the title of the article. --Marschner (talk) 20:15, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Icon Group International

You should note that Icon Group International published automatically generated books which are not reliable sources. The data from the two books in the Literature section is probably correct, but it would be better to reference the original source where it comes from, perhaps some government report. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:00, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Wow - thank you for the link to this phenomenal Prof. Parker! Concerning reliability - well, WP isn't a reliable source anyway, I'm afraid. Or is it?--Marschner (talk) 23:18, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Recent conflict

Is Slovene language official in the province?

It's spoken in the province. That deserves the name a mention. Your mass editions to placenames in the name of guidelines (and they are just that) cannot be done en masse without consensus in special cases. For instance for placenames in multilingual countries or area's. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 03:53, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

2A02:2430:3:2500:0:0:B807:3DA0, please see my reaction on mu talkpage. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 04:01, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Just a remind. Consensus should incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Some important naming conventions which the article's lead violates (WP:LEAD#General guidelines and WP:LEAD#Separate section usage): Once a Names or Etymology section or paragraph is created, the alternative English or foreign names should not be moved back to the first line. As an exception, a local official name different from a widely accepted English name should be retained in the lead. (Foreign language: Local name; known also by several alternative names)".' If the case is exceptional, common sense may be applied to ignore all rules. Please discuss to decide whether this is an exceptional case.2A02:2430:3:2500:0:0:B807:3DA0 (talk) 04:00, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The pronunciation is listed as /ˈklaːɡn̩ˌfʊʁt am ˈvœʁtɐˌzeː/. As a non-native speaker I would pronounce it /ˈklaːɡn̩ˌfʊɐt am ˈvœɐtɐˌzeː/ with all three instances of ⟨r⟩ realised as /ɐ/ since they are all in syllable codas. That's how I'd also expect a German to pronounce it. Austrian German isn't that different as to produce /ʁ/ here, is it? Pronouncing that sound in a coda takes considerable effort. Hairy Dude (talk) 01:22, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

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