Talk:Klein Tools

This article is garbage[edit]

Brizzo22, please stop ruining this article by turning it into a corporate spamfest. if you are in any way associated with the Klein company, you should refrain from editing this page due to conflict of interest. This should go without saying, but here I am, needing to say it.

Also read Wikipedia:Independent sources. This article needs multiple, independent sources. Almost all of the information is from a single source that was released by the company.

Read Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles#Paragraphs as well. Wikipedia isn't a dump for timelines, tabular data, etc. It's for articles, which are written in paragraphs, which have points. They have a purpose and they're about things. This article is a list of useless dates and information, with no indication of why or how any of it is important. For instance, why is it important when Mathias Klein was born? Why does that belong in this article at all? Does the article on United States have George Washington's birthday? Nobody cares.

Nobody cares when Klein celebrated its 100th anniversary. It doesn't matter in an encyclopedic article.

Is it necessary to list every Klein plant? Is there a precedent for this in any other article about a manufacturing company on Wikipedia? Or is this just laundry listing?

"At age 91, Mathias still works every day, but his sons John M. and Joseph A. run day-to-day operations." Unnecessary detail. No one cares.

This entire article makes a mockery of the concept of an encyclopedia article and of the Wikipedia manual of style, as well it should since it was not written with any of those things in mind. You do your company a great disservice by insisting they be represented by such an awful article.

Wikipedia is a not a platform for your PR team. We've removed your bullshit multiple times already. My next step will be trying to get this page deleted entirely if you absolutely insist that it be garbage or nothing at all.

—typhoon (talk) 08:23, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Company History[edit]

Please do not undo the additions that have been posted. All information provided on the company history is accurate. (Brizzo22 (talk) 15:48, 8 February 2010 (UTC))[reply]

It's still really shittily written. 07:45, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

This section appears to be almost completely copied from the subject's own website. — User:ACupOfCoffee @ 20:46, 7 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Distinctive handles"[edit]

Caption on the photo of screwdrivers states this design is "distinctive" however Stanley screwdrivers have had a near identical design (the molded cover is grey not black) for many decades. Batvette (talk) 08:46, 7 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm actually not sure who originated the design, so I removed that bit. It's certainly been widely duplicated, particularly for tools sold as "electrician's" tools (e.g., Greenlee, Southwire, even old Craftsman cushion grips made by Pratt-Read back in the day). --typhoon (talk) 05:14, 20 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Guideline violations and the administrative role of protecting such violations[edit]

Once again, this Wikipedia page is being used as a corporate-sourced vehicle for the advertising, marketing and public relations of Klein Tools. This seems to be a clear and direct violation of Wikipedia guidelines against advocacy and self-promotion. The only section that had previously provided an independent, third-party sourced account of the company's recent manufacturing history was removed by Klein Tools representatives and replaced with a non-independent, company-sourced PR statement that is clearly self-promoting.

I am curious as to why these sorts of violations not only are allowed but are protected by Wikipedia administrators. Indeed, no action was taken by administrators after Klein Tools representatives deleted the "Non-U.S. Manufacturing and U.S. Plant Closings" and replaced it with a sanitized self-promoting "Manufacturing" section. This section is in violation of Wikipedia guidelines and has not been removed. It is regretful that Wikipedia administrators have chosen to ignore this violation for months now.

In any event, I see that this entry has been locked until August 26th. I will rewrite that original section -- Non-U.S. Manufacturing and U.S. Plant Closings -- using more independent, unbiased language and post it on August 26th. Additionally, I wil petition that other sections on this page be deleted for violating the provisions against advocacy, self-promotion, advertising, marketing or public relations.

I hope that Klein Tools will stop violating Wikipedia guidelines and refrain from 1) deleting legitimate entries that use third-party sources, and 2) COI editing of this page. More importantly, I hope that Wikipedia administrators will universally uphold their own guidelines and principles, and not protect violations from corporate sources while selectively enforcing rules for other users.

If administrators are incapable of exercising their role as independent arbiters of Wikipedia guidelines and principles, they need to recuse themselves from exercising that role. In short, Wikipedia administrators should not comport themselves in ways that actively encourage the type of "battleground" environment that Wikipedia itself discourages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Draywaltz (talk • contribs) 14:42, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The article is not a soapbox for your views on the procurement and manufacturing policies of Klein Tools. Others have indeed removed promotional material - but after that was done, two related IPs added what amounts to complaints about offshore procurement that are clearly meant as a complaint against the company, and have threatened disruption to keep it there. Neutrally-worded content is required, not thinly-disguised accusations. The article has been semi-protected due to this repeated disruption, and to force discussion on this talkpage to obtain consensus, as is required by Wikipedia policy. Please propose sourced, neutrally-worded content. Please also read WP:NPOV and WP:EDITWAR - you may not simply revert (or threaten to revert) to have articles reflect your personal point of view. An appropriately-worded discussion of manufacturing practices would be welcome - please propose one with all this in mind. Acroterion (talk) 14:47, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Draywaltz (talk) 15:28, 19 August 2017 (UTC)Response to Acroterion from Draywaltz: The concerns for this Wikipedia page have nothing to do with my "personal point of view" - your use of pronouns here is misplaced, and I have not threatened anything. You have not addressed the COI editing of this page by Klein Tools representatives, which violate Wikipedia guidelines against advocacy, self-promotion, advertising, marketing or public relations. Moreover, you have not provided a rationale for why *you* are protecting such violations. Others have weighed in on this problem since at least 2010. This entire page is corporate sourced through Klein Tools, with no independent (third-party) sourcing. I'm sorry but you are not demonstrating the independent, neutral principles that you require of others by failing to administer this page properly. I respectfully request that you please recuse yourself from administering this page; it is clear from the language you've used above that you are incapable of exercising that role independently in this case. Thank you.[reply]

The article is largely referenced through trade publications - while there are references sourced to the company itself in a manner that is normally acceptable on Wikipedia for uncontroversial facts, the article is by no means "corporate sourced through Klein Tools, with no independent (third-party) sourcing." Such publications tend to be nice to their advertisers, but the article is by no means an advertisement for the company, as it once was. The edits that were proposed by the IPs (which I assume were made by you before you registered your account) might be satisfactory sources of references, but that does not grant license to use the encyclopedia article as a soapbox for criticism. "While Klein Tools proudly highlights their "expansion" of U.S. manufacturing, they have neglected to mention a number of plant closings and automation implementations that cost jobs as a result of transferring operations to Texas, where Klein Tools received a $2.8 million tax subsidy from Texas taxpayers" is inappropriate editorializing. The addendum "Klein Tool representatives have disruptively edited the original section and vandalized it. Again, I will continue to revert this section back to its original for as long as it takes and by whatever means. Klein Tools is using this Wikipedia entry as PR, advertising platform and whitewashing their manufacturing history. This entry is a joke and a disgrace to Wikipedia - disgusting!" is both false and disruptive." "Block my IP address as you may. I can change my IP address at will" is a threat of continued disruption and more than sufficient cause for administrative action.

Stop using Wikipedia as a soapbox. Acroterion (talk) 16:47, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've reviewed the sources cited in the IP's edits. Please note that forums and Amazon reviews are never acceptable sources. At most, the article should note (using the references in the second paragraph) that plants were closed in Illinois and new ones opened in Texas, with incentives offered by Texas, without commentary. Acroterion (talk) 17:06, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Draywaltz (talk) 20:49, 19 August 2017 (UTC) in response to Acroterion:[reply]

You're now dictating content for this page, which is not within your purview. It's one thing to police content that violates Wikipedia rules; it's quite another to tell users what content they should or should not contribute. Again, you continue to demonstrate your lack of independence and objectivity with regard to this page, and I call upon you – again – to remove yourself from the task of administering this particular page.

You clearly have a bias in the narrative that surrounds this company. At the very least, you are taking the content of this page personally, including making false assumptions and accusations as a result. I have not contributed anything to the main page, yet you demand that I "stop using Wikipedia as a soapbox" – what soapbox? As I've already stated, my concern is to prevent anyone from using this page as a soapbox, especially Klein Tools given its present content.

As it stands, the content of this page is embarrassingly skewed, and your response to those who point this out and wish to provide a more balanced account is to protect this imbalanced narrative under the guise of Wikipedia's principles of neutrality and independence. There is far more to the story of Klein Tools and their manufacturing here in the United States and elsewhere than the rosy narrative being portrayed here. Not only are you attempting to block factual, independently sourced information to protect this skewed narrative, but you are now dictating to users what they should or should not submit for this page.

Whatever prerogatives your think you have as an administrator, this certainly cannot be what Wikipedia had in mind in terms of its mission.

Draywaltz (talk) 20:49, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Draywaltz (talk) 21:16, 19 August 2017 (UTC) As a side note: I've been working on my shop today, putting in a new sub panel and re-wiring the entire shop to code. And to accomplish this task, I've been using my Klein Tools insulated screwdrivers (three of them), my Klein Tools wire strippers (awesome), and my Klein Tools high leverage cable cutters (could not do without them). I'm a fan of the tools that Klein Tools makes – they're one of the best.[reply]

Nevertheless, there is more to Klein Tools (good and bad) than simply their great tools and what is being presented here on the Klein Tools Wikipedia page. Telling the story in full, and not ignoring parts of that story because you may or may not like the company, its products or its practices is what objectivity is all about. The need and desire to put out complete, factual information stands on its own – the good, bad and the ugly.Draywaltz (talk) 21:16, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've offered suggestions on how some of the material you want to insert might be incorporated. It's up to you to make it policy-compliant. In no case can you use Wikipedia articles as platforms for personal opinion, using unacceptable sourcing, nor may you threaten disruption to get your way. That is a behavioral issue that administrators are here to regulate. I have no opinion on the company and its move of some production to Texas, and I own some Klein tools that I, too, like. You appear to have strongly negative feelings on that move that have affected your editing. Please set those feelings aside and formulate a neutral discussion of the production shift for the article. Please read WP:NPOV and WP:SOAP, as well as WP:RS, since these appear to be policies that you are unfamiliar with. WP:NOTNEWS is probably worth a read too. Acroterion (talk) 22:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2017[edit]

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

‹ The template Edit semi-protected is being considered for merging. ›

The logo needs to be changed to this picture. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KleinStacked-Official-w-Tagline.png

Note: I am leaving this request open to any uninvolved editor that happens to see this edit request. This is just too many photos for me to process right now. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 19:13, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Partly done: I changed the logo in the infobox to the one you requested. Ups and Downs (↕) 02:41, 22 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Klein Cutlery?[edit]

Does anybody know the deal or the story about how Klein Tools came to produce Klein Cutlery? I just found out they're related today. Breadteam (talk) 08:35, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also having difficulty finding any WP:RS about this. Jmbld (talk) 01:57, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]