Talk:List of largest peaceful gatherings/Archive 4

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Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2016

This year, 30 million pilgrims have ventured onto Daesh territory to enact an allegiance which stands beyond all matters of religious denominations, ethnicities and political affiliations. For the love of one man, one Imam: Hussain ibn Ali, Custodian to Islam’s tradition. (On 21st of November 2016)

Source: https://www.rt.com/op-edge/367563-walking-freedom-iraq-rises-united/ Sagittarian2002 (talk) 04:41, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Teh event lasts 40 days, and the source says that 30 million people participated This year. Meters (talk) 04:56, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2016

Sir Plz add the Huge gathering of this year at the time of arbaeen which is about 30 million people in a single day gather at a sing place https://www.rt.com/op-edge/367563-walking-freedom-iraq-rises-united/ Imranhusain (talk) 08:51, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

 Not done - as explained above - Arjayay (talk) 10:20, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Duplicated article?

So there is a mother article that was created. List of largest human gatherings on earth, which is pretty much the same statistics. However, this article does not specifically state that these gatherings are peaceful, just largest the largest gatherings. Anyways, just thought that this should be brought to attention.--ZiaLater (talk) 09:44, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

It redirects here now. No need to worry, but thanks for making us aware. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:31, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2016

Hi Admin Let see this is Ashura 12-10-2016 in which more than 30 million people gather at one place in one day so plz add this to list http://www.jkmonitor.org/index.php/religion/17987-over-30-million-observe-ashura-in-karbala Imranhusain (talk) 15:34, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: The disclaimer for that site shows that it is more of a blog than a reliable source. http://www.jkmonitor.org/index.php/disclaimer Meters (talk) 22:11, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 November 2016

 Not done Wordpress is not a reliable source - Arjayay (talk) 09:03, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Numbers cited for Arba'een

According to this page, over 30 million people attended the Arbaeen in Karbala, Iraq, in 2016. I seriously question this figure. This is a religious festival which is significant primarily for Shi'ite Muslims, who number about 300 million worldwide. Iraq itself only has a population of about 38 million. This means that for this figure to be true, about 10% of all Sh'ites will have attended this meeting, which, by the way, is located in a wartorn country. Karbala itself is near territory held by Daesh. Despite all that, the numbers have been growing every year, and were "only" 10 million in 2007.

Let's not even think about the logistics of having 30 million travel into a country for only one day. Mecca annually receives "only" about 2 million people for the Hajj, which it is only able to do due to the sophisticated infrastrure it has in place to prepare for large numbers, and even then there are often disasters stemming from people control.

It is believable for the Arba'een to involve many millions of people, but 30 million is far too much. The sources for the figures provided all come from less-reputable sources such as the Huffingtonpost, the IB Times, or religious organizations, which themselves give wildly different numbers (one says 40 million!). They generally do not support these numbers, but when they do, they generally come from government organizations which use them to demonstrate the country is winning against Daesh.

Oh, and besides all that, the Wikipedia page for Karbala barely mentions the event, and when it does, it never cites a figure greater than 2 million.

I am going to be putting a 'citation needed' tag on every entry for this event. It's possible that the massive figures cited refer to celebrants worldwide, but if that's the case we need to specify. In any case, I think it might be a good idea to delete all entries for this event on this page. theBOBbobato (talk) 17:04, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Addendum: After leafing through the histories of edits of this page, I think most of the events cited above about 5 million are bunk. About three years ago there were barely any such events, but now we're overwhelmed by them - and nearly all of them are religious festivals in either India or Iraq, with a handful in other places such as Nigeria, Iran, or the Philippines. All the entries for Western countries are less than 5 million; there are barely any entries for Indian or Iraqi events below 5 million; in fact, the smallest event claimed to take place in Iraq "only" hosted 2.5 million people.
Not to mention that there has been incredible fluctuation in these events over the past few years - huge, record-breaking events keep on appearing and disappearing. Reliably sourced, firmly attested events of such size do not simply disappear like that.theBOBbobato (talk) 17:29, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Citation needed I removed these tags and replaced them with the "unreliable source" tag. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:31, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

Frankly, there is no way of ascertaining the veracity of these claims (not just for Arba'een, but also for other events such as the Kumbh Mela). The media outlets usually report these numbers based on estimates provided by the organizers, who have a vested interest in inflating them. The news reports from The Telegraph, The Times of India etc. are acceptable as citations, but we should attribute these numbers to the original source. For example, "According to the country's Transport Minister...", "Based on an estimate by the festival organizers..." etc. utcursch | talk 21:16, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Perhaps we can reorganize the article? I think it might be a good idea to sort the records according to purpose and location, and keep the recurring events such as the Arba'een in their own section. We ought to also to convert it to a table which provides a box which states clearly which sources are providing the figures cited. That should allow readers to get a much clearer picture.theBOBbobato (talk) 16:39, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
You ideas sound very Bob, but I think we need to verify the reliability and accuracy of the claims for Arba'een and the other recurring events first. It is highly implausible that a country of 38 million people had 44 million people crammed into a single gathering, but numbers of around 20 million could be possible. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:50, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
I agree that we ought to verify if possible, but I'm tending to be more cautious now because I'm not sure there are many alternate sources - a skim Google search shows that most articles available online do go by the government sources, which are probably inaccurate. So I feel like our choice is between just removing these events or commenting on the sources.
Since there does seem to have been a lot of edit-warring over the past few years, a table would also be a good change since it would be introduce more rigor, and make it more difficult to edit the article.theBOBbobato (talk) 17:03, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

- I've removed all of them, the numbers are just ridiculous. Makes me question our quality control that they were here in the first place. Carl Fredrik 💌 📧 16:45, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

For those who want to see exactly what was removed it is in these edits . Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:24, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Women's March on Washington

Women's March on Washington is likely a candidate for this page now. Victor Grigas (talk) 02:08, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

@Victorgrigas: I would have to confirm from the reliable sources but this page only lists gatherings with at least a million people, however the page for the march currently states that only half a million people gathered. Even if you factored in the number of people at the inauguration and included it as a "peaceful gathering" it would only be 750000 - 1100000. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:03, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
The event was not localized, but simultaneous and distributed, is an event being centralized a necessity? Sources like VOX say it "may have been" one of the largest marches in US history: http://www.vox.com/2017/1/22/14350808/womens-marches-largest-demonstration-us-history-map Victor Grigas (talk) 01:27, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
We have always only allowed only incidents that occurred in one place in the past, but I do not see why. This edit by an IP removed that caveat and I am not inclined to restore it. In fact I have added another event that I removed earlier here. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 04:28, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
I undid the IP removal, as the number of people participating in an event does not mean the number of people who are gathered. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 13:17, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Hm, how many people celebrate Christmas each year? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 22:26, 15 February 2017 (UTC).

Bias

Tens of Kumbh Mela entries were removed from article although all reputable sources call it the world's largest gathering, such as Encyclopedia Britannica, news agencies like Reuters, magazines like TIME etc.

The reason given is because Kumbh figure is "estimates provided by the organisers" and "most articles available online do go by the government sources".

  • Now the estimates given by organisers is 30 million for Kumbh Mela's main day [1] (120 million for the entire festival)
  • Guinness Book of World Records say that it was attended by 80-100 million people
  • Let's accept that this both organisers and Guinness Book are exaggerating. But even the most conservative estimate is by independent researchers from Harvard. Based on cell towers and phones they have estimated that the peak day of Kumbh Mela had 25 million people (61 million for the entire event). This is conservative estimate because India is a poor country, and not everyone has cell phones. Even today, there is one cellphone for entire family in many villages... many don't have any cell phones at all.

So even with such a conservative estimate Kumbh Mela should be there on the list, not just for 2013 but at least 25 entries for the last century.

Now before 2013, there were not independence validations of Kumbh crowd. So let's accept that all such entries should be removed as they are based or organisers and govt/police authorities. But bigger question is if you don't consider organisers and authorities reliable, ... WHY ISN'T THE SAME RULE BEING APPLIED TO Western Countries and Christian gatherings?

  • Pope Francis Mass in Rizal Park. Source is Vatican spokesperson Fr. Federico Lombardi
  • Santo Niño de Cebú (Child Jesus of Cebu). Source is Chief Inspector Wildemar Tiu, Waterfront Police Station chief and overall commander for the procession
  • Circus Maximus, Rome - [2] - "Gli organizzatori esultano: "Siamo in tre milioni" (The organizers exult: "We are three million"). Article says police dispute the figures as only 700,000.
  • Socialist rally in Rome in 2003 - Source is wsws.org - "according to the organizers, more than three million people flooded the streets"
  • Pope Francis World Youth Day Mass- Source is [3] - "The Vatican said* more than 3 million people were on hand for the Mass, based on information from World Youth Day organizers and local authorities
  • Boston Red Sox victory - Source is [4] - "A police spokeswoman put Saturday's crowd at 3.2 million."
  • Annual feast of the Black Nazarene - Source is [5] - "MPD District Director Senior Supt. Roberto Rosales said the crowd had swelled to 2.6 million."
  • If all these are fine, then why are estimates from Indian police/govt and Kumbh Mela organizers not fine? Even if Kumbh Mela organisers exaggerate the figure 10 fold, and even if you restrict this list to SINGLE PLACE SINGLE DAY event, Kumbh Mela on main day (Mauni Amavasya) should have many entries in this list for many years. See this BBC article - 2007 Ardh Kumbh Mela (which is not as big as the full Kumbh Mela) had 18 million visitors on a SINGLE DAY. Eve if this number is exaggerated 10 fold... even then with 1.8 million visitors, 2007 Ardh Kumbh Mela will be on the list.

You don't have problem with events which happened on DIFFERENT DAYS.

  • "An estimated 3.16 million people made the annual Hajj to Mecca, Saudi Arabia in 2012". Source for figure is govt of Saudi Arabia and it is a SIX-DAY event.
  • If this is fine, why not mention multi-day figure for Kumbh Mela?? (most conservative is Harvard researchers figure of 61 million, Guinness says 80-100 million and organisers say 120 million)

You don't have problem with events that happened in DIFFERENT CITIES in the Western world..

  • Protest against Dilma Rousseff. According to citation, Police estimates from more than 150 cities show 3 million protestors. The citation itself says that police estimates of previous protests have proved to be exaggerated.
  • Women's march which took place in DIFFERENT cities and technically NOT AT SAME TIME (because of timezone differences). Citation says - "An estimated 60,000 people marched in Atlanta. 250,000 are marching in Chicago. There are estimates of 250,000 people in Boston, and 200,000 more in Denver. In New York, the estimate ranges from 200,000-500,000. City officials estimate that 500,000 people participated in the main march in Washington, DC. In Los Angeles, the estimate is anywhere from 200,000-750,000." The article links to this document mainitained by two professors whose sources include Tweets, Facebook posts and unverified "eyewitness counts" submitted through Google docs forms and e-mails.
  • If this is fine why not entry about tens of millions celebrating Holi in different cities but at the same time?

You don't have problem with Guinness book citation when it's for Western world

  • Rod Steward concert in Brazil. Source is Guinness but the link is not viewable to general public - nobody asking for verification
  • But Guinness book citation for Kumbh Mela is being doubted with verification needed although the link is publicly viewable!

You don't have problem with other entries for which the citations mention no SOURCE AT ALL.

  • England Queen's coronation in 1953 - Source is BBC article which has no source for these numbers.
  • Pope's Funeral - Source is BBC article, which has no source for these nummbers
  • How is having no source at all better than govt / oragnizer estimates as sources? And if BBC is accepted as citation for less populous western countries, why do you doubt BBC when it reports numbers about India which has 1 BILLION people?

Some don't even have citaions. Eg. Jean-Michel Jarre concert in Moscow.

Even during colonial times, British authories wrote that Kumbh Mela was attended by millions. Now India has 1 billion population, so why is it hard to imagine that 10+ million people can attend a popular festival? Look at [Kumbh Mela crowds

If you are removing Kumbh Mela entries, why don't you remove all other entries too which are government sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.91.20.108 (talk) 19:34, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Arbaeen and Ashoura

Just saw that many enteries pertaining to Arbaeen and Ashoura event are removed.

I am of the view if the enteries are exagrated with numbers like 20 million etc. but even there are cautious estimates available worldwide. Instead of erasing the entries the estimates can be revised.

As far as question about the infrastructure and logistics of traveler is concerned, as raised by one of the commenter, it would be a much better way to get full coverage from media and journalists and those who estimate.

even much better way is to reach there as observer. people travel on foot for hundreds of kilometers, people came by air, by buses, by cars from various countries and cities.

At Haj rituals are defined and that's why a quota is allocated for every year's attendees. whereas for Ashura dn Arbaeen a person has just to be present there.

in short there are a lot of ways which make an independent person incline towards a better estimate for Arbaeen and Ashoura which would be , I am sure, will be in top list of highest number of gatherings even with lowest possible estimates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.2.153.26 (talk) 06:17, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

The entries have been removed per WP:EXTRAORDINARY. If the entries are exaggerated you must provide a source of these cautious estimates that suggest they had at least one million people gathered together. The infrastructure and logistics are irrelevant as like the Kumbh Mela dispute they merely suggest visitors in a day or a time period, and not how many people are gathered. Just because Haj has reliable estimates it does not mean that we can accept estimates for Ashura or Arbaeen, except if they were booked together in package deals that was reliably sourced. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:14, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Adding Oktoberfest

The inclusion was previously discussed before, but I think a few points were missing in the argument, so I'd like to bring back the question of adding Oktoberfest to the list. Again, it's a 6 million people gathering. The reason given against was that events listed have to be in one place at one time (opposed to this 16 to 18 days event) and without fighting. As of today, I don't see anything in the article indicating that the list is about events in one place or on a single day. I'm not necessarily opposed with such a rule but then it should be written somewhere, perhaps I missed it. And about the fighting, Oktoberfest isn't designed to bring fight and violence, according to the article the security is considerably improving over time, and I think it'll be utopian to think of such a crowd being completely peaceful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freayd (talk • contribs) 20:15, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

@Freayd: The article is about gatherings not event, which is why they have have to be in one place. Gatherings can take place in multiple days, such as with New Years celebrations, but this not likely in most events. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:24, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Removing Chicago Cubs World Series Parade

The Chicago Cubs 2016 World Series celebration and parade has widely been reported to have been attended by 5 million people, often called an "official estimate", or estimated by "city officials". There isn't one official source from the City of Chicago that explains their reasoning behind this estimate. However, there are three separate posts on various websites that use common crowd counting techniques that all come up with an estimate closer to 1 million, a fifth of the "official estimate". Without anything backing up the original estimate other than that number being spread far and wide, as is expected thanks to social media, that number has no business being included in this article as it is purely fantasy without any fact. Iamjamieq (talk) 18:37, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

@Iamjamieq: The first source [6] states By Chicago's Office of Emergency Management and Communication's count, an estimated 5 million people lined the 6-mile parade route and gathered at the rally in Grant Park. -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:19, 31 July 2017 (UTC)
@Emir of Wikipedia: That is an unsourced quote. If the city made an official estimate, then where is that document? The only thing that can be found on the City's website was this https://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/oem/provdrs/emerg_mang/news/2016/november/cubs-world-series-victory-parade-and-rally-a-success-.html which makes zero mention of attendance. The 5 million claim is a fantasy that has spread thanks to social media. It is not a fact that can be backed up by any actual data. Wikipedia is not a site for fantasy numbers. It is a site for facts. -- User:Iamjamieq (talk) 19:27, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

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Maha Kumbh Mela on 10 February 2013

This January 2017 version says An estimated 30 million people bathed at the Triveni Sangam in Allahabad, India for the Maha Kumbh Mela on 10 February 2013 and it has three sources, but it is removed in the current version. What was the reason for removal? Pahlevun (talk) 18:25, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Two sources were tagged as being possibly unreliable. The other one just says 30 million bathed in one day, not that they were all gathered at one time. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:44, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks ror reply. I found this Reuters piece that calls it "the world’s largest temporary gathering of people". Pahlevun (talk) 20:03, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
Add it but only with that source not the ones from the January 2017 version. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:53, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

50 million in 2017?

The figure includes "14 million Iranians", which contradicts with the 2.3 million reported by the Iranian government. Pahlevun (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

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Criteria: Multi-day events?

Is this list meant to cover multi-day events? There are several inconsistencies here. E.g. the 60-80 million attendance for the Haridwar Kumbh Mela is definitely not for a single day (the next entry -- Allahabad Kumbh Mela) is for a single day -- the multi-day figure for this event would be ~120 million. Aalmi Ijtema Aurangabad is also a 3-day event. Also, the lead image -- File:Annual human migration world map.svg -- shows Chunyun, which is neither a single-day, nor a single-place event. utcursch | talk 00:28, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

This list could technically cover multi-day events however is not about the number of event attendees whether at a day or multiple but in a location at a single point in time. Please help fix inconsistencies. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:59, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
This seems like a great thing to add to the intro paragraph of the article. I think this would help people add in the correct information and standardize the type of event and number of participants.TheStranger616 (talk) 19:09, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
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