Talk:List of people from Lucerne

Claudio Castagniolo

Again, he (see Talk:Lucerne#Claudio Castagnoli]]) is not from Lucerne. His birth place undoubtly is Weggis e.g. (please consult the authorities, if you like: +41 41 208 83 56). Weggis however indeed belongs to the canton of Lucerne, often abreviated as Lucerne (if the context is clear).

If sombody writes "Weggis, Luzern (Switzerland)", then Luzern means here unambigously the canton (state) and not the municipality and city!

The given link, which should prove that he is from Lucerne, is a third-hand source at best, and eventually is nothing else than an "abbreviation" with a loss of significant information. This is an error in lost of translation, or better, in lost of better understanding by an US-american third-hand source!

If you are born in Newark, then many will like to call it NYC. But even if you are born right next to the Hudson, it still stays Newark (in a even different state) and not NYC. The same is with Weggis and Luzern.

And there is no evidence that CC ever lived in Lucerne or had any other relation to Lucerne.

So CC has to be removed from this list. -- ZH8000 (talk) 23:29, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for that information. Where sources are in conflict we usually mention both, however in this case, your explanation sounds rational, so we can add that information to the article, but in a way that we are not introducing original research, or making Wikipedia claim that other sources are wrong - such as this one used in our article on Claudio Castagniolo in which he says: "The city I was born and I grew up in is called Lucerne ... Lucerne is a beautiful town in the middle of Switzerland. It is surrounded by mountains, like the Rigi and the Pilatus and lays by the Vierwaldstätter See (See means lake)." We can do this either in a footnote, or as part of the main body. Putting it in the main body would be giving the information undue weight, as this is merely a list of people who are associated with Lucerne, with their dates and their notability, so a footnote is the more appropriate, as with George_Harrison's middle name. But before we do we need to consider the value of this additional information, the potential confusion by readers who are expecting that Claudio Castagniolo was born in Lucerne, and should perhaps bring it up on Talk:Cesaro (wrestler) so those working on that article are aware of the issue. What we can't do is "correct" or deny the information because it is so widespread, but we can make readers aware that some sources say something different.

That all sounds rather complicated, but what I am saying is that what you say sounds plausible, so what we need to do now is to consider the best way forward. As a first step I will let others know this discussion is taking place. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 15:58, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

I'll note that ZH8000 offers a lot of biting commentary, some bordering on BLP violations, but no actual sources to back up his claims. Complicating matters further, "place of birth" is rather irrelevant in Swiss affairs (I'll note that there's no hospital in Weggis either). If ZH8000 means to say that Castagniolo's place of origin is Weggis, that may well be true, and relevant to Swiss people, but not for this discussion here. Though I'd appreciate clarity of what he means, as well as supporting sources. MLauba ^(Talk) 16:31, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

As MLauba points out, place of birth is not what is recorded on legal documents, the Bürgergemeinde is. You might have a "citizenship" in a place that you only have a family connection to, and in which you may not have been born or currently reside.Tobyc75 (talk) 17:21, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

It seems, from the above comments and from what Castagniolo himself has said, that he was born and brought up in Lucerne, but in Swiss law (the Bürgergemeinde) he is registered to the village where his family are from, which is likely where the reference to Weggis in Swiss sources come from. As the majority of sources say that Castagniolo is from Lucerne, and the argument that he is actually from Weggis, while plausible to non-Swiss, turns out to be less than plausible when closer facts are looked into, I think it is best to just leave things as they are. I don't think this is worth a footnote in this article, though it may be worth considering for the article on Claudio Castagniolo. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 17:39, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't think genickbruch.com is any more of a firm authority than the other sources. And while wikipedia is of course not a reference, I'll note that the German article, where a lot more editors understand the nuance between place of origin and place of birth, also point to Lucerne. If I were to venture a guess, he was physically born in Lucerne, his place of origin is Weggis, and the only discrepancy in sources comes from the genickbruch.com website which doesn't distinguish between both (most likely because pro wrestlers from Switzerland are a rarity).

This is all idle speculation, though. The majority of sources claim Lucerne as place of birth, so using the argument "he wasn't born there" to try and remove him from the list of people from Lucerne is a non-starter. The real discussion should be on whether being one of the few or even only Swiss-born Wrestlers in the WWE qualifies someone to be on a list of noted people from either place. And while it is the relevant question to ask, I don't have a strong opinion on this.

I'll simply call out that while WWE wrestling is, as the OP states, not a very popular sport here, the EN wikipedia page for Lucerne isn't a page by the Swiss for the Swiss. It's a page on an English encyclopedia for a global audience about a well-known Swiss town, and to at least some of our readership, a wrestler born there may be more remarkable than Siegfried Wagner or Petermann von Gundoldingen. MLauba ^(Talk) 22:13, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

• @ZH8000, SilkTork, and MLauba: I find it hard to argue for Weggis given that Claudio himself said "The city I was born and I grew up in is called Lucerne". But, I have searched the Web and found both a source for Weggis [1] and a source for Lucerne (unstated if city or canton) [2]. I suggest a simple note on any relevant page noting sources have described both Lucerne and Weggis. And of course he's notable enough to remain on the page. In the era of the Internet, far more people worldwide know him than Oswald Myconius. There's around 139,000 videos of "Antonio Cesaro" on YouTube for posterity. starship.paint ~ KO 10:28, 17 April 2017 (UTC)