Talk:List of public art in Cardiff

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Untitled[edit]

Great to see this list, I hadn't found it and was in the process of creating something similar myself! I've taken the liberty of expanding the lede and the description of the boundaries of Cardiff city centre. I've also added an additional link to this article from the 'Culture and recreation' section of the Cardiff article. Sionk (talk) 23:13, 30 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't there still a statue of Gareth Edwards, the legendary scrum-half, in the St. David's Centre? I thought of this because another rugby-related statue has been unveiled in Cardiff Bay this week: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/welsh-anthony-cardiff-great-britain-wigan-b2378245.html - presumably that should be added to the entry too. AlfredAndAlbert (talk) 14:12, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the Rugby Codebreakers statue. I guess the Gareth Edwards statue is in a privately owned and managed shopping mall, so isn't strictly 'public'. Sionk (talk) 20:56, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

MISSING SCULPTURES - Cathays Park[edit]

There are a lot of sculptures missing, most notably the large group on the east wing of City Hall / Villa Cardiff : I have been debating how to get a good photo of this for some years because in true Cardiffian Councillian style the artistic heritage of the city is celebrated by having a lampost planted in front of it and lots of buddleia is now destroying all of these statues anyway so kiss goodbye I guess to any claims we had to heritage etc I think that the sculptures inside the old Glamorgan County Hall on the walls of the council chamber are worth a visit but difficult to view, and do not forget the monuments in the peace garden nor the crypt in the Temple of Peace etc lots to look for ! DaiSaw (talk) 06:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you'd need to find some sort of record of them, before adding them to this list article. Without going to the library I don't know whether any sculptures on the east side of City Hall are mentioned in the John Newman book, for example. As for sculptures inside the Glamorgan Building - isn't that owned by Cardiff University therefore no longer public? Sionk (talk) 12:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hepworth outside Cardiff University School of Music[edit]

There seems to be confusion about the name of the bronze Hepworth sculpture outside the University School of Music. The article gave the name as a British Interlocking Forms, but the reference was broken. A webpage from the School of Music gives the name as Walk In. This name was familiar from when I was at the university in the 1970s. Another Cardiff University page has Three Obliques (Walk In). I also found a page at the Public Monuments and Sculpture Association with the name British Interlocking Forms. (References are in the article.)

I have put the three alternative names, but perhaps we should give priority to the University sites. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:02, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have found what appears to be a definitive source. I will edit the entry accordingly. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:28, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This sculpture (not the building) is a Grade II listed building. How should I show this? Other tables in this article have a Designation or a Notes column, but the Cathays Park table does not. It would be good to have a consistent table format, ideally the same as equivalent articles for other cities. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The best template for this would be {{Public art row with long notes}}, though there is a proposal at the moment to merge this with {{Public art row}} here. ({{Public art row}} doesn't have the |architect= parameter that would be useful for this list.) It would be best to wait for the merger to happen before adding it to this article. I have also proposed a bot to add the resulting template to all public art lists here. All this is likely to take quite some time, unfortunately. Ham (talk) 19:14, 14 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Grecian Woman on Prince of Wales (ex-)Theatre[edit]

The St Mary Street façade

Judging by the iconography this is probably the Greek goddess Hebe. She is wearing a sleeveless dress and carrying a cup and a jug. Do a Google image search on "Hebe statue" to see that this is a very common form. Is this sufficient for us to name the status Hebe, or Classical Greek Woman (probably Hebe)?

We currently give the date as c. 1920. The theatre interior was remodelled in 1920, which may have led to this date, but it seems that the St Mary Street entrance, and so this statue, are earlier. I guess the 1910s. Probably all we can safely say is it is between 1878 when the original theatre was built, and 1920 when the interior was remodelled. I propose we say c.1878-1920.

See "Prince of Wales (Cardiff)". The Theatres Trust. Retrieved 25 May 2014. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:54, 25 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It would certainly be very useful to add a citation from the Theatre Trust webpages, however the PMSA already makes a 'best guess' at c.1920 so I don't think it's our job to draw our own counter-conclusions. "Grecian Woman" seems a perfectly fine description, I don't see any justification myself in adding our own research and conjecture. Sionk (talk) 09:53, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The Buildings of Wales has the following: "later [i.e. than 1878] narrow entrance bay, surmounted by a Grecian female between giant Doric columns. This must belong with the internal redecoration of 1920 by Willmott & Smith." (Glamorgan, p. 214.) I can see why 1920 might seem an unlikely date at first, but there's a kind of driness and stripped-down severity about the façade which suggests to me that this could be later than Edwardian; I've added a thumbnail to this discussion for reference. As for the identification, I agree with Sionk that we need a source, but there's nothing to stop someone from writing to the PMSA to ask them to consider whether they should change their entry on the work. Ham (talk) 20:33, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that we should not add Hebe. However, I am fairly confident of this identification. It was worth raising this on the Talk page in case a citable reference can be found or procured.
The date of the sculpture is a different case. Here we have sources that conflict. One of our roles as editors is to judge which which source to prefer, based among other things on the reputation of the source and on any uncertainty indicated in the source.
All three sources appear to be dependable, but the Theatres Trust should probably have precedence as it is a National Advisory Public Body established by Act of Parliament.
The PSMA is uncertain about the date of the St Mary Street entrance of the theatre, and thereby about the date of the sculpture.

The interior was remodelled in 1920 and the new entrance block, in the form of a Classical temple front, was probably added at this time.

The Buildings of Wales is also equivocal. This must belong with the internal redecoration of 1920 implies that the author has reached this conclusion based on imperfect or missing evidence. One of these sources may derive from the other.
Whereas the Theatres Trust says:

Opened as the New Theatre Royal. [in 1878] [...] Later entrance now around the corner in St Mary Street, (adjacent to the Philharmonic Hall) where one bay of the shop buildings [...] was rebuilt in Greek Revival style - giant columns in-antis above the ground floor linked by a triangular pediment, open below and having a square headed niche containing a statue.

The auditorium was reconstructed in 1920 in the same distinctive Greek style.

The sequence described by the Theatres Trust is clear:
  1. Original building (1878)
  2. St Mary Street entrance build in Greek Revival style (date unknown, between 1878 and 1920)
  3. Interior remodelled in Greek Revival style (1920)
So one source says probably 1920, another reaches the same conclusion, and the third, much more definite and at least as reliable, says before 1920.
That leaves what to put in the article. I favour 1878–1920.
We should also ensure that the table sorts correctly by date. This is currently broken. We can make it sort on 1899 (half-way between 1878 and 1920) by using {{sort|1899|1878-1920}}
All this analysis may seen over-the-top for a single entry in a table. However, I am think of writing an article on this building - I visited it yesterday and took some photographs. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:06, 26 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent that an article is being written about this building. I don't know that the Theatres Trust's entry is "much more definite" on the dating issue, given that it doesn't suggest any date at all, not even tentatively as do the PMSA and Newman; I'd even say that the phrasing is ambiguous enough to allow for the possibility that the interior and the classicist façade were designed together, but only the auditorium is documented as dating from 1920. A list of "Events" further down the Theatres Trust's page mentions no alterations made between 1878 and the auditorium's refit in 1920, and none afterwards till the theatre closed, so there's no record for the building of the newer façade. It seems that "imperfect or missing evidence" is all any of us have to go on in this case, and it's only conjecture to insert a building campaign where there's no evidence for one. I still think "c. 1920" allows for an appropriate amount of wiggle room – yes, it could be earlier – and is backed up by two sources, whereas the Theatres Trust piece as I read it actually avoids the question of dating. Ham (talk) 07:06, 28 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point, and I accept that there is no consensus for changing the date. The matter could be clarified by a contemporary report - do you know if any Cardiff-based newspapers for the period have been indexed, or are available online? Verbcatcher (talk) 16:11, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
My planned article on this theatre is on hold until I can consult a copy of The Theatres and Performance Buildings of South Wales by Rob Firman, which I hope has useful material. Unfortunately my local library doesn't have a copy. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:19, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have today written an article on the Prince of Wales Theatre, Cardiff. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:37, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tables sorted by date[edit]

I have fixed several of the date entries to ensure that the tables sort correctly by date, using template:sort.

Where an artwork was completed in several stages I have made it sort on the date of the earliest work. Where I interpreted dates as an estimated range I have sorted on the middle year of the range, so that 1996-6 sorts between 1994 and 1996. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:44, 29 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

National Museum[edit]

I have added pictures of the four large sculptures on the western (Museum Avenue) pediment of the building.

Two these were previously listed as one group, Mining and Shipping. They are separate sculptures. I have added a new reference that confirms their names, and that they are by Clapperton.

The other two sculptures are at the northern end of the west wing. Newman indicates that this part of the museum was built by T. Alwyn Lloyd and Gordon in 1962-65. I have called them 'Agriculture' and 'Slate Quarrying', based on their content and on the overall sculptural plan of the pediment sculptures. I don't have the sculptor's name.

Should we indicate the position of the sculptures on the building? How? West, east and south sides? Or Museum Avenue, Gorsedd Gardens and Park Place? Or clockwise starting at the north-west corner? Should they be added to a new section in National Museum Cardiff, or should we create a new article just for them? Verbcatcher (talk) 01:14, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Victorian Web gives different names for two of the sculptures on the eastern pediment (Park Place): The Genius of Painting and The Genius of Literature or History. This site appears authoritative, but this is probably not sufficient to merit our changing the names.
The Cathays Park table is uncomfortably large. Should we separate out the National Museum sculptures, and maybe other groups such as the City Hall and Alexanrda Gardens?
Thanks for giving this so much attention. Nothing wrong with subsections in my opinion. I don't mind how the locations of the architectural sculpture are described; I do have a preference for chronological order, though. (I don't like the alphabetical order in the City centre section.)
As for identifying the 1960s sculptures, I remember seeing in my university library (years ago) an issue of Amgueddfa, the Museum's magazine, with a feature on that wing from when it was newly built. Whether it named the sculptor, etc., I don't remember, but it must have been pretty in-depth to make such an impression on me. Presumably that would have been from 1965. The Museum's own library might be the next port of call for this. Ham (talk) 06:40, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Old Library[edit]

I have taken photos of about 25 sculptures on the Old Library in The Hayes. I don't have the titles or the sculptors' names. We could get dates from when the building was built. Should I add these? Should they be in the City Centre table or in a new table? Verbcatcher (talk) 01:46, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Public art in Cardiff Bay[edit]

I don't know much about this piece of public art in Cardiff Bay ...but I feel it should go in the article. SethWhales talk 19:35, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Depends if anyone knows what it is really. The photo is 7 years old, so maybe it was a temporary thing to fill a gap? The ladder suggests is has some sort of utilitarian purpose. I don't recognise the location from the limited visible background info. Sionk (talk) 19:54, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The specified camera location puts it in what is now Roald Dahl Plas, near the Water Tower sculpture. This is confirmed by the Geograph page. It's certainly not there now, and I think this list should be restricted to what is currently installed. However, I don't think the picture can have been taken at the specified location and date. The photograph is dated 2007, but phase one of the Wales Millennium Centre was opened in 2004, at which time I think Roald Dahl Plas was in more-or-less its current form. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:12, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The location on the Geograph map is clearly wrong, I think it must be the generic coordinates for "Cardiff Bay". Sionk (talk) 21:42, 3 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

PMSA links need updating[edit]

Hallo, I was looking into Michael Rizzello and found that the link to his Statue of DLG was a dead link. I found the new link to be http://pmsa.cch.kcl.ac.uk/pmsa-database/11647/ (instead of http://pmsa.cch.kcl.ac.uk/AH/CARDIFF036.htm ). I suspect this means that there are a large number of dead links in this list, and it doesn't look as if there's an easy way to map from old to new. A nice little project for someone! PamD 11:08, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've updated the Cardiff Public Art Register urls. Sionk (talk) 15:01, 25 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Boots dragon in Queen Street[edit]

User:Seth Whales has added the dragon on Boots in Queen Street (thank you), but without a date. I am trying to get a date for it. I remember it being there from a long time ago. I think it was originally a mosaic which was replaced by a painting of the same design. waymarking.com says it dates from before 1972. cardiffians.co.uk has a picture dated 1985 that shows the painting (not then a mosaic). Dic Mortimer[1] days that the building dates from 1961 and mentions the dragon. Mortimer does not explicitly say that the dragon dates from 1961, but I think it probably does. Unfortunately, I have not found much to cite. Mortimer's book gives an earliest date of 1961 and waymarking.com gives 'before 1972', but I don't think we should cite waymarking.com. Verbcatcher (talk) 23:32, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Mortimer, Dic (15 June 2016). A-Z of Cardiff: Places-People-History. Amberley Publishing Limited. p. 75. ISBN 978-1-4456-5661-8.

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