Talk:Martin Bormann/Archive 1

Circumstances of death

The article states: "It is almost certain he was killed by Soviet troops not long after leaving the bunker."

In the German Wikipedia it is said that Bormann and a fellow could escape from the bunker, but lost their group and commited suicide, exhausted and demoralized.

Both accounts are true... the enWP version has since become much more detailed.Wyss 00:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Clarifying most probable date of death

The scientific method is the only method one can use to affirm an hypothesis. I think that given the hard evidence against the ton of rumors of his sightings that are all shady and unprovable, the most probable date of death was 2 may 1945. The red dirt sounds like fabulations. This is what in written as time of death in the panel with his photo at the top right of the article, but I think it should also appear in the bibliographic section. It's not clear enough. What I mean by that is that the Death and Controversy section doesn't say clearly enough what the most probable date is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.23.69.115 (talk) 01:02, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The remains

His body was found and identified by DNA. He probably committed suicide with a cyanide capsule.

I recall a few years ago reports of analysis of his skull showing that dental surgery had been carried out that was not recorded in his records in Berlin, the jaw line indicated aging and there were traces of foreign soil, suggesting that he had survived in South America for about 15 years and then had his corpse returned to Berlin to cover his tracks. Does anyone know more to say if there's anything substantial to this? Timrollpickering 00:02, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If he was dead why did he need to 'cover his tracks'?

Maybe he had connections and associates in South America who felt the need to maintain the story of his death in Berlin 1945 after his real death - possibly to avoid an investigation reaching them at the time. Timrollpickering 02:01, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well that seems rather implausible to me. They buried his body in Berlin rather than just dump it at sea for example? I think that would be very complicated and easy to to get spotted. They aged it to create the idea that it'd been there for 30 years? And all because they wanted to conceal their involvement in B's nefarious post-war deeds? Humm. Lots of simpler and more effective methods, I think. It sounds like a wild 'ad hoc' theory to explain the presence of the body in Berlin while still maintaining that B had been up to no good in Argentina and thoughout the world.User: Paul Barlow Paul

I'm inclined to agree but recall that in addition to the aging, there were traces of Argentinean soil, whilst the dental work was not on his records - did he stop to go to the dentist while escaping? Whilst not sure myself it does raise questions that aren't easy to answer. Timrollpickering 01:07, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Timrollpickering, T.Roll. Rickroll (Rick replaced by Tim). I don't know but if this is a coincidence... Also, a book called Doppelgängers doesn't sound liable to me. Seems like a book that nourishes fantasy more than logic. This "red clay" seems to be reported by persons who weren't actually in any of the forensic teams. I know it might be important to talk about rumors and controversy but maybe it should be outlined better that the guy who wrote the book is not a scientific? Anonymous 7:45 PM, 3 Jan 2012 Eastern — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.23.69.115 (talk) 00:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

The rumour that Argentinean soil was found with the remains is spurious. There are lots of published rumours, but zero evidence Bormann was alive after 2 May 1945. Wyss 00:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Can somebody justify the recent deletion of a paragraph, described as "redundant"? Unless justified I may revert. PatGallacher 15:11, 2005 Feb 28 (UTC)

Bormann was definatly in South America for a while, my grandfather was chief of station in several latin american countries throughout the cold war. I've interviewed him many times on tape and have written his memoirs and he has confirmed Bormann's life in South America along with a whole lot of other interesting things. I know that sounds kind of insane but it's true, however, I do not know how he died. He could have very well gone back to Berlin later and died there.

mccown1122

These were rumours and they were widely believed (or at least checked out from time to time) by sundry intelligence services. In 1945 Axmann consistantly claimed he saw Bormann's body and the remains were later found and identified. Wyss 00:36, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Bormann was last seen leaving the bunker and trying to get anyone he would meet up with to pull his finger. He finally met up with a Soviet tank crew that obliged him by really pulling his finger.

This article reads like a bundle of conspiracy theories. This paragraph in particular has no references and contains spelling errors -- and frankly, reads rather "wacko":

Since 1998 DNA testing revealed the skull to in fact be Bormann's, the theory that is suggested by the above evidence is that Bormann lived outside of Germany for some time, and that after his death his remains were buried somewhere (presumably near where he had been living). Then, sometime later, as part of a cover-up, his remains were exhumed, altered appropriately (such as the planting of glass shards in the lower jar to mimic the result of having bitten down on a glass cyanide ampule, and then "planted" as evidence, with the intention of them being found in Berlin by "accident," to lend credence to story that Bormann had fallen nearby, in 1945, and that that was where his body was ultimately buried by someone who perhaps didn't recognize him or who did but didn't want it to be found at the time.

People have questioned why Bormann, if he had indeed been buried abroad, would have been exposed directly to the soil as opposed to being in a casket or sarcophagus of some kind. Theorists of this conspiracy suggest that perhaps, during his period of hiding, the plan had existed all along (or was conceived at least at the time of his death) and therefore he was buried locally to allow his body to naturally biodegrade before being exhumed and relocated back to a site in Berlin where it would eventually be found.

Theories as to who perpetrated this crime abound, from the West German government wanting to cover-up his escape to the Mossad wanting to cover-up the fact that they knew his whereabouts but were unable or unwilling to abduct him and bring him to justics as they had with Eichmann to elements of the British government wanting to cover-up the fact that they had helped him escape in order to get access to his vast fortune to the Soviets wanting to cover-up the fact that he had in fact been the deep-cover mole codenamed "Werther."

Come on, people -- this is really stretching things. Pure speculation does not belong in Wikipedia. --Rhombus 15:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I think Gerhardt Boldt's story should be added in after Axmann's recount 72.138.97.220 (talk) 05:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Found in 1972?

Well, I've heard of long shots but really... you have to ask yourself: what is the likelihood that a single body discovered by chance in Berlin in 1972, and ostensibly there since 1945, would be that of Martin Borman?

Of course as soon as one doubts this discovery the tests also go out of the window: they were obviously faked. Which means they do not prove anything. Neither that he took cyanide in 1945 nor that he escaped to South America.

The truth? No-one actually knows what happened to him and as like as not he was killed in the chaos of 1945 Berlin. But the body has not and never will be found.

Case solved.

Next conspiracy? Marcus22 10:37, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

No, not at all. They were finding bodies constantly in the decades following the war. It's not at all surprising famous ones would turn up now and then. The body was positively identified, as was Stempfegger's. Wyss 11:43, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Bormann, who is considered as the "Second Man" to Hitler, is dead. Why would anyone fake the DNA test of his death? He is one of the greatest leaders in Nazi history. They found proof of his death by getting a DNA from an old relative. They also found proof of how he died. The truth is he dead and that's the end of it. Case Closed.

How they died

I read The Bunker and I think Axmann said he assumed that Bormann and Stumfager (sp?) poisoned themselves? BlueShirts 00:21, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Axman thought they had been shot in the back. The Last Days of Hitler by Hugh Trevor-Roper (University of Chicago Press, ISBN 0-226-81224-3) is cited by [1] The Bunker most likely conflates Axman's 1945 account with the 1972 finding of glass shards in Bormann's skull (which indicates he did take cyanide, contrary to Axman's assumption). Wyss 00:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Note: Axman was mistaken, but it was 27 years before either his general account or his mistaken assumption were understood, when Bormann and Stumpfegger's skeletal remains were found during a construction project. They were lying on their backs and he didn't see any wounds in the moonlight, so he assumed they had been shot in the back. Having been with them only minutes before he presumably didn't think of the possibility they had so quickly given up all hope and munched on cyanide caps. Wyss 01:23, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the sentence that Hitler's "hatred of catholics was evidenced by the massive number of them interned in concentration camps". this is simply post-war propaganda design to rehabilitate the German catholic church which as an institution accomodated itself quite comfortably to the regime. Hitler did indeed, as many German nationalists of the era, loath the church regarding it as a treacherously international institution. one need not look any further than Meine kampf for evidence. Still aside from limited attempts to close down parochial schools before the war no serious action was taken against it, while during the war the need to preserve morale militated against any other actions. onthe few occasions when catholic priests were arrested this was due either to anti-nazi statements during sermons, after warnings to cease and desist have been ignored, a "courteousy" not accorded to other dissidents, often with the approval of church hirerches, or much more commonly for non-ideological reasons. Borman at one point did obtain Hitler's permission to begin an anti-religious propaganda campaign over the objections of many gauleiters but was ordered to halt it when public opinion reports indicated that it had provoked consternation. the catholic church was not a nazi priority.

Date of death remains unknown

Was Martin Bormann the top Nazi who was so interested in relocating North American mammals to both central Europe and parts of South America with a similar climate? If not him, who? Raccoons are a pest in Germany now - and beaver in southern South America, Tierra del Fuego(the Argentine part)way. This was an ongoing thing with Germans, a long time before the Nazis and even after World War II. Somebody big in the Nazi party supported this wholeheartedly. Attempts were made to establish passenger pigeons and carolina parakeets in certain parts of eastern Germany in the mid to late 1800s, so this was an ongoing thing. Supposedly all the serious scientific literature about the (extinct) passenger pigeon was found in the hands of the Nazis at the end of World War II. The beaver were supposedly put in South America in 1947, although I think an earlier date is more correct. They would have put trout in as well. Is there anyone the least bit knowledgeable about this? This was basically a very expensive hobby type situation, which did not always turn out properly from a biological basis. I understand Bormann was very interested in this, but am not sure? Somebody important in the Nazi party was interested in this. Who? I think his presence in South America could be correlated with this. 75.35.133.251 01:43, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Added "Cause of Death Disputed"

This may be an inappropriate Wiki-category, but I added "Cause of Death Disputed" to this article--because the exact DATE of his death is disputed. It was added with good intentions. Is there a Wiki-category "Circumstances of death disputed"? Let's discuss this further, if needed. ProfessorPaul 02:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought the DNA test proved that it was Bormann's skull? And Artur Axmann testified he found Bormann and the doctor dead when he ran from a Sovjet patrol. So why is there another date of dead in the article?DTE 08:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

And on that note, if there's evidence that he might have died in 1959, why is it not mentioned in the article except for the introduction? Nyttend 03:17, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

"Children" ?

What's about his "children" ? Are the still - 2007- alive ? Where they live ?

I don't find anything in the German Version of Wikipedia. I hope, somebody can help me on this way.

-- Andrea1984-- 22:17, 23. Juni 2007 (CEST) (German Version) Yes but grandchildren and Greatgrandchildren, they live in Pennsylvania, and no they are not Nazis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.120.97 (talk) 15:00, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Bormann.jpg

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Artur Axmann's account

The whole paragraph appears to relate events that occurred on 1 May 1945, including his discovery of Bormann's body. Yet we say he died on (?) 2 May. Seems to be an inconsistency here. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no inconsistency. Bormann left the bunker shortly before midnight and his death is estimated to have occurred sometime in the first hours of the next day. -- Dissident (Talk) 17:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

contested statement removed

• He developed and administered the Adolf Hitler Endowment Fund of German Industry, a huge fund of voluntary contributions made by successful entrepreneurs. Bormann re-allocated these funds as gifts to almost all of the party leadership. {{Fact|date=November 2007}}

Please do not return this information to the artilce without a citation.--BirgitteSB 17:55, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

German Protestant & atheist?

The tags at the bottom state that he is both a German Protestant and an atheist. These aren't contradictory per se. He could have been a member of a church for political or moral reasons while still not believing in God. However, if that is the case I might recommend a further explanation about his religious views rather than have two tags that appear "at odds." Thanks.

166.82.102.200 (talk) 23:23, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Some time ago there was an atheist tag (on a lot of nazi officials), given all the nazi references to God and the prosecution of the freethinker movement, this seemed unlikely. So I removed the tag and requested a reference before it should be reinstated. However, some guy/troll just kept reinstating the tag without providing any reference, just saying it was well known. A quick google-search gives a lot of pages claiming both things, it'll probably take some effort to sort out what's true and what's just alleged. -ramz- (talk) 10:41, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Hello -ramz-, While your judgment was reasonable and with the information present, understandable. I have several sources attesting to Bormann's lack of faith. I do not call for the tags to be brought back, however, the several of the sources are already listed. Jochen Von Langs "the Secretary" details his hatred of the churches in throughout the book. Also if you would like further sources, I could offer citations and references for the other Nazi officials you edited, if you could post their pages. Thank You Scout of truth (talk) 23:47, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the paragraph,

At the Nuremberg trials, Arthur Seyss-Inquart, the Reich Commissioner for The Netherlands, testified that he had called Bormann to confirm an order to deport the Dutch Jews to Auschwitz, and further testified that Bormann passed along Hitler's orders for the extermination of Jews during the Holocaust. A telephone conversation between Bormann and Heinrich Himmler, who was his main antagonist in the struggle for power within the Nazi elite, was overheard by telephone operators during which Himmler reported to Bormann about the extermination of 40,000 Jews in Poland. Himmler was sharply rebuked for using the word "exterminated" rather than the codeword "resettled," and Bormann ordered the apologetic Himmler never again to report on this by phone but through SS couriers

It is unreferenced and is therefore POV. If you could link it to the page/chapter of the relevant trial records it would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 1968peterbishop (talk • contribs) 10:48, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Date of Death

"Some controversy continued, however. For example, Hugh Thomas' 1995 book Doppelgängers claimed there were forensic inconsistencies suggesting Bormann died later than 1945. When exhumed, Bormann’s skeleton was covered in flecks of red clay, whereas Berlin is a city based on yellow sand. This indicated to some that the body had been re-interred from somewhere with a clay-based soil, such as Paraguay, the Andes mountains or even Russia (as the Gehlen theory surmised)."

I have heard this too, and was under the impression that he escaped and lived in South America and lived past 1945, as the evidence suggests. Were any tests done to determine the date of death? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.28.170.95 (talk) 20:21, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Had Erwin Rommel killed?

According to Heinz Linge ("With Hitler to the End: The Memoir of Hitler's Valet") Bormann had Rommel killed in the aftermath of the July 20 assassination attempt on Hitler because of a grudge resulting from an incident earlier in the war when Rommel refused to let Bormann accompany Hitler to a certain locale during a visit to the front, and that Hitler expressed an interest in having an autopsy done on Rommel's body to make sure he commmitted suicide and hadn't been murdered. Historian932 (talk) 15:17, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

NPOV - Russian spy - Fringe theory?

The section about him potentially being a Russian spy appears based on one source making the claim and then original research being used to provide a "second source". This claim appears to be a fringe theory at best. Active Banana (talk) 17:48, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Infobox image size

The current size

The default size

I believe that the aspect ratio of the infobox image in this article is such that presented at the infobox's default value it is too large, the visual equivalent of SHOUTING. I suggest that the current size is more appropriate. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:25, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Atheist

The source for category:German atheists is here, which is Richard Overy's book The Dictators: Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia. I am unable to get a page number because it is an ebook. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 12:37, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

@Diannaa: According to Bookfinder it was published by Norton in 2006, so there should be meat-world copies around. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:23, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

I don't know the page but the quote is (Redacted) You can view it here

It's readily available online, so there's no need to reproduce it here. — Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 00:53, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I've added sourced text saying, with reasons, that he's a theist. So far as I can see, Overy doesn't say anything about his atheism other than he was an atheist. Doug Weller talk 16:21, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

The editor reverting me was a (surprise!) Apollo the Logician sock - in fact there were four in that little pool. Doug Weller talk 18:13, 24 August 2017 (UTC)

Children

Names and partial dates of birth for the children can be found here. The imformation in the body was copied from de.wiki, where it is unsourced. Info in the infobox also needs citations. Some info on the children can be found in McGovern and von Lang as well. I will work on this later. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:52, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

The Michael Miller book I have cited has information on the children; I will look at it and work on it later, when I have the time. Kierzek (talk) 17:03, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Done. Kierzek (talk) 16:37, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

John Ainsworth Davis' account of Bormann's alleged survival

I reverted this section after looking into the book and cites offered. Frankly, it falls into the WP:fringe conspiracy theory section at best; usually reserved for Hitler. It does not claim to be historical fact or pure fiction from what I read of it; the WP:RS citing is very poor to say the least. I believe it should not be included here; although there are getting to be so many of these types of claims in books these days one could put together an article titled "Nazi Conspiracy theories" I guess. I await input from others herein. Kierzek (talk) 14:37, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

To include it gives undue weight to this fringe theory. I agree that it needs to stay out. -- Diannaa (talk) 17:01, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Considering his remains were positively identified via DNA testing, yeah, I'd say keep it out. HammerFilmFan (talk) 21:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

all dead and still super, so why the Deutche Bank and Argentinian secret services have bak statement in the name of martin bormann occurring even in the 60’s and what about a bank account joint one with Juan peron? does it compute? or does not? well the censor will decide, nevertheless there are documents with martin bormann signatures dating from 60’s try to explain it. good luck — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.146.1.127 (talk) 21:22, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, Anon, it's like this - your tinfoil hat is not turned to the proper signals from the spirit-world. Seriously, stick to RS's and not nonsense.

Martin Bormann religious views

Kierzek About this edit, I don't think that his religious views are redundant in his own article, this should be mentioned. Rupert Loup (talk) 19:01, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

None of the three sources you cite back up your addition very well. Poewe says on page 97 that Bormann may have been favourably inclined towards the ADGB, which is not the same thing as being an outspoken pagan. Paris p.57 does not discuss Bormann's religion at all. Perhaps you got the page number wrong? And Shirer calls Rosenberg (not Bormann) an outspoken pagan on page 240. None of the NSDAP top brass were particularly religious. I think is should stay out. -- Diannaa (talk) 00:21, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree. There is not consensus on your addition shown and the subject matter of the facts: that he was strongly anti-Christian and a leading persecutor of the churches is well cited. It should stay out. Kierzek (talk) 01:02, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Death and life after world War 2.

Martin Bormann was known to escape Germany in 1945. Take the path from Berlin through the underground tunnels throughout Berlin to airport. Landed in Tonder. Later found his way to Spain. Traveled to Argentina on a boat. They had original plans in Argentina but in 1955 or so the leader of Argentina was overtaken and the military dethroned Perone. Nazis fled to Paraguay and Chile. Martin changer his name to Juan Keller and lived the majority of his days left in Osono Chile..when Adolf Eichmann was caught he went on the run again..ended up dying in Ascension Paraguay. Buried in an unmarked grave..dug up later on and reburied in his actual grave spot in Germany. When they apparently went to check the bones the skull had red clay on it..not native to Germany. Found in south America lol OK I'm done now. Adamcram (talk) 02:36, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

The above makes for good story telling on History Channel shows and sells books, but the DNA and bone analysis tell the facts. I don't blame you but the source of the information presented which is not WP:RS. Kierzek (talk) 02:41, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

I seriously doubt you are "done now" - what you are relaying is nothing more than a crank conspiracy theory. 50.111.59.83 (talk) 19:33, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

The body was moved back to Germany. Its documented in secret service files and corroborated on 'hunting hitler' season 2 episode 7. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.99.35.105 (talk) 20:48, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

See my comment above, no reason to repeat myself. Kierzek (talk) 20:59, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

"That evidence is a two-page, 1961 document recovered earlier this year among the archives of ex-dictator Gen. Alfredo Stroessner's secret police, archives popularly dubbed the "horror files." The author of the report, a Polish counterintelligence agent employed by Paraguay's Interior Ministry, wrote that Bormann died in Asuncion of stomach cancer on Feb. 15, 1959, and was secretly buried in an unmarked grave at a cemetery just south of the capital."Chicago Tribune, 1993 https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1993-05-30-9305300273-story.html But, I don't have a horse in the race so won't attempt to edit the main article, though it should be. If this is true (which I have no reason to think that it's not) then the question becomes why do people want to believe the official story, and why was the official story created in the first place? It's no secret that hundreds of Nazis escaped to South America after the war. RRskaReb talk 16:41, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

The bones were conclusively proven to be Bormann's, based on DNA analysis conducted in 1998. This evidence post-dates the Tribune article, which in turn is based on an even older document. I don't think we should include anything on this unproven fringe point of view when we have scientific evidence that contradicts it. — Diannaa (talk) 21:37, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Any old unsubstantiated report is just that. It has been debunked by the scientific evidence and there’s no reason to include it. Kierzek (talk) 23:16, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Please check change of dates

Would someone with access to better sources than I have on Bormann please check the change of dates made in this edit? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:19, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Recent additions

Recent additions are completely unsourced, some appears to be original research or is obviously incorrect, and the prose is not of the high quality we expect in a Good Article. For these reasons, I have removed the addition. The material has now been removed five six times by three different editors. Per the advice at WP:BRD, it's up to the person who wishes to include it to visit the talk page and make a case for their edits rather than edit warring. I invite further discussion here. — Diannaa (talk) 13:46, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

It's important that each statement in the article has a source. How we do this is pretty much each sentence is sourced to a particular reliable source such as a book (along with page numbers) or reliable website. All the books are listed in detail in the bibliography, along with details such as publisher information, ISBN, etc, so that the specific edition of any of the source books can be identified. Your edit doesn't do that.

A second problem is the wording; this article has passed Good Article review, which means the prose is developed to a fairly professional level. Your addition does not have that characteristic. For example spelling errors (Disapperance, werent, betreayed)

Another problem is the content itself; in some instances you appear to be drawing conclusions. For example when you say "He attempted, with success, to do it harm whenever he could, to sow distrust, to prevent necessary measures from being taken to simply gain power himself"; do any of the sources say that, or is it your own conclusion? Here's another example: "Theodore's death had a deeply saddened the young Martin, and he despised his mother for the rest of his life for remarrying the same year." Where did that come from? Is it in one of your source books? If so which one?

You've also removed some of the sourced content and replaced it. Some or all of your addition appears to have been copied from an old version of the page, though I can't determine which version. Definitely something prior to the article being re-written for preparation for its Good Article nomination. But the main problem with your addition is the complete lack of inline citations, which are required, not optional.— Diannaa (talk) 12:19, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Diannaa. The reason why I reverted the additions is because they were uncited to WP:RS sources. There was too much drastic change not to be first discussed on the talk page, especially given this is a GA rated article. The prior text was well vetted, RS cited and better written, with better grammar. Additions also included WP:OR. Kierzek (talk) 12:42, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

An editor has advised me that a lot of the content being repeatedly added is copied from https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/judborma.asp, a copyright webpage. I have performed revision deletion and will block if the problem persists.— Diannaa (talk) 17:18, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Suicide

As far as I know there is no evidence that Bormann committed suicide, so I have removed it from the infobox and categories. Before restoring it, please provide a citation from very reliable source which shows that he did. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:42, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: Fine, I will not make any more edits to it as I wish to edit other things. You may be right, and I don't feel that it is something that I want to debate. Davidgoodheart (talk) 05:50, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm also not terribly interested in debating the question - if you have a source that says he committed suicide, and it's a good one, then the article should reflect what it says. I just haven;t come across anything like that in my own reading. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:25, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

I was wrong. Bormann commited suicide by taking prussic acid. I'm updating the article, infobox and cats. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:10, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

 Done Sorry for my error. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:29, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: I totally forgive you, and please remember the we ALL makes mistakes a lot of the time without ever even realizing it. Davidgoodheart (talk) 08:48, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

First, DNA evidence pertaining to Bormann's skull match with a "family member's tissue" has not ever been factually released by the German government, at any time. The German government provided no verifiable lineage for the 'family member' tested and did not graphically release the 'scientific detail' of the skull-family DNA "match". In effect, the German government did not ever release technical detail of "the match" ..only a fiat edict-decree. In other words, no verifiable scientific basis for a DNA match ever existed, or was ever publicly released by the German government. Second, glass supposedly found in the jaw of the discovered skull was pronounced as fact, *only* *by* *governmental* *decree* ... No photographic evidence, "hard evidence", or for that matter *any scientific evidence* has ever been publicly released or presented by the German government, wrt the glass fragments supposedly found in the jaw. Indeed, it's a government which is as historically suspect now, and then, as it has ever been. Finally there is absolutely no verifiable evidence whatsoever, and ever publicly released, that Martin Bormann committed suicide. We prove here again that history is written by someone who was not there, about something that did not happen. Sorry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montoya44 (talk • contribs) 07:22, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

This is not the History Channel. Dental records, Composite photographs of the skull, overlaid on his photographs, facial reconstruction and later DNA testing, all state otherwise (not controlled by the government). We have to follow the WP:RS sources and not WP:OR. Kierzek (talk) 17:19, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Wrong. This is not RFERL either. The article's so-called "evidence" is not comprehensively referenced or sourced. And "Kierzek" gives no sources either for prima facie allegations. "Kierzek" has no facts to present, only statements based on "accepted" bias indeed based on government edict; not unbiased evidential science. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montoya44 (talk • contribs) 07:27, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

The article is based on what we found in reliable sources that are listed in the article. If you've got some alternative sources that disagree with what's presented in the article, please say what they are, and be specific. For example, if it's a book, give the full title, ISBN, page number, etc. If it's an online source, please provide the url. Thanks,— Diannaa (talk) 14:43, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Nope. Montoya44, you’re the one making unfounded accusations. Everything I’ve stated is RS sourced in the article. I don’t have to restate that here. Kierzek (talk) 16:23, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Kierzek, The Last Days of Hitler: The Legends, the Evidence, the Truth by Anton Joachimsthaler is cited by one minor historian as authoritative, however that is in relation to Hitler, and not Bormann. A perusal of the book (re: Bormann) provides evidence only related to Soviet sources pertaining to Hitler while the Bormann treatment is minimal and anecdotal, and the book is considered marginal at best in some quarters. The other work by Ian Kershaw, To Hell and Back: Europe 1914-1949, simply refers to Joachimsthaler's work on Bormann, and interestingly Kershaw is considered the 'authoritative' word on Joachimsthaler! Neither of these works provide evidence of Bormann's suicide as accepted fact, referenced to a factual authoritative and impartial source. The Independent article is OR we commonly see in the media where one source simply quotes another, and is not an authoritative writing.

As for accepted fact, the fact is that Bormann's dental records were only reconstructed from memory by his dentist, written under duress at the Nuremberg trials. That any court would accept same as evidence, was a bad faith product of the times. The "DNA evidence" pertaining to Bormann was a mitochondrial profile, and a mitochondrial profile may not match a child to a father (as alleged in the Bormann case) since mtDNA is only passed from mother to child. Again, the waters become muddy here: other sources say the German government used a maternal blood test to match the DNA. Which is true? In our present era of ubiquitous online-sourced anecdotal nonsense it is impossible to say. Regarding the woman who supposedly provided a Bormann blood test, her identity and location are kept private, also far more than interesting but beyond scope here. Now, there may be DNA link to the remains found and alleged as Bormann's, but the reported circumstances of that find do not prove he died on a bridge near Lehrter station in April-May of 1945.

The "suicide" is circumstantial, anecdotal, and not conclusive. The search object "Upon autopsy, fragments of glass were found in the jaw" appears as all OR misinformation appears in the media: ubiquitous with no authoritative source given; no photographs or publicly available files provided or found. Apparently the Simon Wiesenthal Centre is the original 'authoritative' source for this glass information; yet when the SWC was contacted in 2010 by this author the SWC refused access to the files it claims to hold. For wikipedia to say that Bormann probably committed suicide on a bridge near Lehrter station is unsubstantiated, and the word 'probably' should be changed to 'allegedly'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montoya44 (talk • contribs) 16:48, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

There's nothing here that we can use, because you haven't cited any sources.— Diannaa (talk) 23:31, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I have to agree with Diannaa that all you’ve written is opinion and surmise at this point. It is OR and what is needed is known RS cites and sources. Kierzek (talk) 13:11, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

references

on the references section of the page, its says Hoss was sentenced in 10 years in prison and was realised in 1928. Not only is the date very wrong but Hoss was in fact sentenced to death by hanging by the polish government in 1947. 2A01:11AF:47E:8000:8404:B845:882C:1A74 (talk) 22:09, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Hoss spent some years in prison for the murder of Walther Kadow in 1923; he was released in 1928. He was later convicted of war crimes for his activities in World War II and was executed in 1947.— Diannaa (talk) 00:05, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Life in Argentina

I watched Mark Felton's youtube series about Martin Bormann and found this which seems to argue that there is proof Bormann was in Argentina post 1945. Is this worth mentioning in the article, or too conspiracy theory? Started the talk section because I don't actually know enough about the history to just edit the page without consultation. OctavoInZa (talk) 07:37, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

That is a fringe theory, debunked by DNA and other evidence. Kierzek (talk) 08:20, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

What DNA? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 15:17, 6 November 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)

DNA from the skull was compared with that from a relative. Here's one of the sources where we found this information: DNA test closes book on mystery of Martin Bormann. The Independent. May 4, 1998. — Diannaa (talk) 15:29, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, Mark Felton's assertion is as follows:

1. Dental evidence shows that dental work occurred between 1945 and 1959 at the time of his alleged death of cancer in Paraguay.

2. The DNA evidence concludes that the correct body was found, but the supposed death in 1945 does not match the location of the body as falsely attested to support that theory.

3. The body was encased in soil from Paraguay where his remains were originally buried.

4. He was sighted in Italy en route to Rome to secure the papers he needed for the sea voyage to South America.

5. Documents provided by South American governments, and other intelligence agencies have since been released that support this theory.

Therefore I suggest that the theory be documented and the evidence against that theory be presented. ~~ Merxa (talk) 11:04, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Historians Joachim Fest, Richard J. Evans and Ian Kershaw note, in agreement with Joachimsthaler, Bormann died in the final days of the war in Berlin in 1945. In more recent times, Bormann has become a main character in the "cottage industry" that has arisen as to Hitler's alleged escape from Berlin to South America. Usually escaping death and justice to Argentina. Fiction, fringe at best. Kierzek (talk) 17:24, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

The cottage industry claims regarding this fringe fiction as you characterise it should be documented on this page. ~~ Merxa (talk) 04:17, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Sources? Letters to the editor can't be used. What does Bormann say? Doug Weller talk 15:51, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I'd be interested in researching this, as you say the key is the sources. I would like to pursue this topic, and welcome others to do so as well. ~~ Merxa (talk) 00:38, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Merxa, the facts he was missing and the subsequent identification of his remains is already covered by reliable sources in this GA rated article. This article is not a conspiracy theory article. Kierzek (talk) 15:24, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Recent changes to the infobox

I have twice reverted recent changes to the infobox by user:망고소녀. The current dates are sourced to Miller, Michael (2006). Leaders of the SS and German Police, Vol. 1. Unfortunately I do not currently have access to that book to check what it says. The material being changed is the date of birth for Gerda Borman and the fact that we are showing Volker Bormann as having died in 1946. Content is sourced to Miller, page 154. @Kierzek:, do you still have that book? it looks like you are the person who added those citations. Diff of Martin Bormann. Thanks, — Diannaa (talk) 22:30, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

Diannaa: I have been out of town. I just got back and saw your ping. I very recently sold that book, so I cannot check it. Sorry. Kierzek (talk) 00:41, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Footnote: I recently re-acquired Miller‘s book (vol. 1) so I can use it once again as needed herein for review and citing. Kierzek (talk) 13:30, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

망고소녀: I don't see how we can change the data without a citation that contradicts what was found in 2014. A statement to "Google it" is not considered adequate sourcing for Wikipedia articles. — Diannaa (talk) 01:08, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

@Diannaa: I found one book, "Hitler's Alpine Headquarters" by James Wilson (I have not read the book, nor know of the author), that states through Google Books preview on page 322 that the couple had 10 children, and "nine survived the Second World War". It lists the children as: Adolf Martin; twins - Ilse & Ehrengard, Irmgard, Rudolf Gerhard, Heinrich Hugo, Eva Ute, Gerda, Fred Hartmut and Volker. It states on that page that Ehrengard died in infancy. I would suggest a review of the book by Lang, Jochen von (1979). "The Secretary. Martin Bormann: The Man Who Manipulated Hitler". New York: Random House. ISBN 978-0-394-50321-9. I read that book some years ago and used it on Wikipedia. I had checked it out of the library. I will see if the local branch still has it. The information needs cross-checking and the other books I reviewed, do not cover it. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 21:09, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I can see the info in Google snippet view in Wilson. I will add that as a citation for your amendments. — Diannaa (talk) 23:57, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to check into this. — Diannaa (talk) 00:06, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

Update - the library does not have the book any longer, but I have ordered a copy of von Lang's book. After it arrives, I will cross check the dates he has for the Bormann children and let you guys know the findings herein. Kierzek (talk) 04:22, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

The dates of birth for the children were originally added to this article and to the German Wikipedia on the same date (October 12, 2006) and by the same IP English wiki; German wiki. No sources were cited, and the list is no longer present on the German Wikipedia. The dates we find in books might actually have been copied from Wikipedia. Volker Koop's 2020 book shows different dates for two of the children, which makes me think he might have done his own research. We might never know for sure which birth dates are correct for the children, but fortunately these dates are not all that important to the big picture. — Diannaa (talk) 10:43, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Diannaa, that is why I want to look at von Lang‘s book because it was written in the late 70s. So there’s no way he obtained the information from Wikipedia or the Internet. Kierzek (talk) 20:17, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

The copy I ordered should be arriving next week. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:32, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

That sounds perfect. Hopefully it has all the birthdates! Thanks, — Diannaa (talk) 22:48, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

The copy I ordered is said to arrive between 24 and 28 April, so next week, as well. Between the two of us, BMK, I am sure the mystery can be solved. As long as the book has the information. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 23:06, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I would like to offer what I have found on this topic. First, I have reviewed the Lang book and, unfortunately, it does not contain any information on the two birth dates that are in dispute. Second, the Max Williams book SS Elite: The Senior Leaders of Hitler's Praetorian Guard, Vol. 1 (2015), which is listed in the Bibliography section of this article, does contain a listing of all the children's birth dates on page 132. It agrees with the birth dates provided on page 154 of the Miller book, which I have also reviewed, with regard to Eva Ute (4 May 1938) and Gerda (4 August 1940). Note that the Wiki article currently assigns Gerda's birth date of 4 August 1940 (cited to Koop) to Eva Ute. I also discovered that Fritz Hartmut, whose birth date is given as 3 April 1942 in both Williams and Miller, appears as 4 March in the article with a citation attributed to Miller. I believe it is reasonable to infer that this was a date transposition error when it was added. Also, the five month period between the birth date for Gerda currently listed in the Wiki article (23 October 1941, cited to Koop) and the known birth date for Fritz Hartmut (3 April 1942) argues against the published Gerda date being correct. One other point of clarification: I found a minor discrepancy between the two sources in the information on Irmgard, which is given as 28 July 1933 by Williams and 25 July 1933 by Miller. I hope the above will prove useful to you in resolving the current dispute though, regrettably, it adds a new (albeit minor) point of contention involving Irmgard. Regards. Historybuff0105 (talk) 17:44, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

@Historybuff0105: Thanks very much for this detailed research. If I am understanding you correctly, this would mean the following dates and citations could be used:

• Martin Adolf Bormann (14 April 1930 – 11 March 2013) (Miller, page 154)
• Ilse Bormann (9 July 1931 – 1958) (Miller, page 154)
• Her twin sister Ehrengard Bormann (9 July 1931 – 1932) (Miller, page 154)
• Irmgard Bormann (born 25 or 28 July 1933) (Miller, page 154; Williams, page 132)
• Rudolf Gerhard Bormann (born 31 August 1934) (Miller, page 154)
• Heinrich Hugo Bormann (born 13 June 1936)] (Miller, page 154)
• Eva Ute Bormann (born 4 May 1938) (Miller, page 154)
• Gerda Bormann (born 4 August 1940) (Miller, page 154)
• Fritz Hartmut Bormann (born 3 April 1942) (Miller, page 154)
• Volker Bormann (18 September 1943 – 1946) (Miller, page 154)

If everyone could please check this over and make sure I haven't copied something wrong or misunderstood, that would be great. Thanks. — Diannaa (talk) 20:34, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

@Diannaa: Yes, I concur with your post, which is an accurate summation of the nearly identical information found in the Miller and Williams books. I reviewed Koop's book online (p. 158) [Koop] and do not see any citations for the dates that he provided. (Incidentally, he provides the 25 July 1933 date for Irmgard, agreeing with Miller, and provides the transposed 4 March date for Fritz Hartmut.) In conclusion, I am comfortable that the data in my research and your summation is the most reliable information currently available and can form the basis for a consensus finding. Thank you. Historybuff0105 (talk) 21:58, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for checking it over. Let's wait a day or two to give the other interested editors an opportunity to assess as well. — Diannaa (talk) 00:01, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

P.S. Miller's book was published in 2006 so it would have been impossible for him to have copied data that was first added to Wikipedia in October of that same year. — Diannaa (talk) 00:30, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Miller's book is highly detailed, and I wish I still had it for this matter to review again, but am glad that Historybuff0105 has it to provide the requested info to compare and confirm what he states. I pulled up page 322 (Google books) of "Hitler's Alpine Headquarters" by James Wilson again. To compare:

• Adolf Martin (14 April 1930) - matches Miller and Lang
• twins Ilse and Ehrengard (9 July 1931) - matches Miller and Lang
  • Ehregard then dying ("infancy")
• Irmgard (25 July 1933) - matches Miller
• Rudolf Gerhard (31 August 1934) - matches Miller & Lang
• Heinrich Hugo (13 June 1936) - matches Miller
• Eva Ute (4 August 1938)
• Gerda (23 October 1940)
• Fred (?) Hartmut (4 March 1942) (could be inverted, but that is just OR)
• Volker (18 Sept. 1943) - matches Miller

Kierzek (talk) 21:57, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

One additional point of clarification. Fritz Hartmut's DOB was (presumably) transposed as 4 March 1942 when originally posted without citation on 19:26 13 October 2006. It was correctly changed to 3 April 1942 with the addition of the Miller citation on 16:36 5 July 2014. There matters stood until it was changed first to 4 March 1942 and then to 3 March 1942 in two edits on 5:37 and 6:25 12 April 2023 without any change to the Miller citation.Historybuff0105 (talk) 13:58, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I think we should go with 3 April 1942 since that agrees with Miller's book. — Diannaa (talk) 14:00, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree. I checked my copy of von Lang's book that I just received and after a quick search can confirm, he does not include a list or mention of all the children, nor all their dates of birth. Only DOB's I see are for Adolf Martin, Rudolf Gerhard (Helmut) and Ilse (Eike). If I missed anything, let me know. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 15:37, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and implemented the discussed changes. Thanks. — Diannaa (talk) 01:12, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Eva Ute Bormann & Gerda Bormann

The book states that eva ute bormann's birth date is may 4, 1938, and gerda bormann's birth date is October 23, 1940. Also, if you search for Martin Bormann's children's birth dates on Google, it shows Eva Ute Bormann and Gerda Bormann's birth dates are straightened out, and in other languages, Wikipedia, Eva Ute Bormann's birth dates are May 4, 1938, and Gerda Bormann's birth dates are October 23, 1940. Can't I edit it as it is? 망고소녀 (talk) 21:07, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

You keeping referring to "the book", but there is more than one potential source, and -- as far as I understand -- they disagree on the dates of birth. The question, I suppose, is which of the sources is most authoritative. Neither Google searches nor other Wikipedias are WP:reliable sources, and cannot be used to support information added to articles.

In any event, continuing to revert to your preferred version is disruptive editing. Please allow discussion here to develop a WP:consensus, and in the meantime, leave the article in its status quo ante state. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:20, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

@망고소녀: Other Wikipedias cannot be considered as reliable sources. See the section immediately above where I mention that the content was originally added to the German and English Wikipedias in 2006 without a source. It was likely copied to other Wikipedias from there. For example: the French Wikipedia has the same list, sourced to page 46 Kershaw's book "The End", content added by an IP in September 2019. There's no such detailed info about the children in that book (I have a copy); in fact the only content about the children is a brief mention on page 21 that he had 10 children, no names or birthdates. Some books may have actually copied the list from Wikipedia. If there's a discrepancy among sources, what we normally do is have a look at all the available sources and decide what to do, whether it's to list what the various sources have to say or to choose one source that consensus says is the most reliable, or even remove the material. There's no rush for us to make a decision.

Repeatedly reverting to your preferred version is called edit warring|, which is not allowed. Please see your talk page for more information about edit warring. — Diannaa (talk) 23:42, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Can't Eva ute Bormann and Gerda Bormann keep their birth dates intact?

I've looked around in Wikipedia in other languages, and Eva Ute Bormann's birth date is May 4, 1938, Gerda Bormann's birth date is October 23, 1940. In other languages, Wikipedia also depends on where it shows the birth dates of eva ute and gerda, and in googling, the birth dates of evaute and gerda are shown exactly, and on other sites. Can't Eva ute Bormann and Gerda Bormann keep their birth dates intact? 망고소녀 (talk) 15:01, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Your questions have already been answered, but I will sum up for you: Other wikipedias are not considered reliable sources, because they are wikis. For example: the French Wikipedia has the same list, added in September 2019 sourced to page 46 Kershaw's book "The End". There's no such detailed info about the children in that book (I have a copy); in fact the only content about the children is a brief mention on page 21 that he had 10 children, no names or birthdates.

"Googling" is not a reliable source, because chances are they copied from Wikipedia, which is not a reliable source. What we are looking for at present is book sources that pre-date the earliest addition to any of the Wikipedias, which seems to be the addition to the English and German Wikipedias, bothe by the same IP, on October 12, 2006. If we can't locate such a source, we will have to have a discussion as to the best way to proceed. — Diannaa (talk) 20:02, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

I have one last question

Can't Evaute and Gerda's birth date be fixed equally as May 4, 1938 and October 23, 1940? Even if you don't have the exact source, if you google it, you see the dates of birth for Evaute and Gerda, and there's no evidence that Evaute was born in 1940, Gerda in 1941. In other languages, Wikipedia says that Eva Ute was born on May 4, 1938, and Gerda on October 23, 1940. Can't we just set the date of birth for Eva Ute and Gerda the same as May 4, 1938, October 23, 1940? 망고소녀 (talk) 01:38, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

• For the very last time, as had been explained to you a number of times, no, we cannot. If you post this again, it will be deleted. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:16, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

AN/I

After today's change of birthdates, against consensus reached here, I have asked on AN/I for 망고소녀 to be partially blocked from Martin Bormann. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:53, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this editor seems to have become obsessed with this article and in particular, wanting their specific changes be made as to the personal life section. Kierzek (talk) 08:08, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

They have now been blocked from this article by BorgQueen, which is for the best. Since an IP that geolocates to where they're from has been making the same edits with the same rationales and the same grammar mistakes in the same edit summaries, but is not the editor in question apparently, and they're very insistent about that, ECP or the like may be required. Ping me if anyone wants my support on that request to admins. — Trey Maturin™ 17:39, 30 April 2023 (UTC)