Talk:Martin Luther/Archive 15

Moving on

With the apology from Drboisclair, and CTSW's removal of himself from the current discussion, perhaps we can now get back to the article and leave this discussion behind? It appears (I could be wrong) that the material in question has been removed, and the person responsible for adding it has apologized. Now let's get this back up to GA. Pastordavid 21:44, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

PD, are there any significant areas missing from the article? I saw that the bigamy scandal was absent, so I added a paragraph. I noticed that one source mentioned the stress of that scandal as having affected Luther's health, so I wondered whether we should have more detail. Also, there was mention on the GA review that a section on anti-Catholicism had been removed. Should that be restored? Is there anything else that's missing? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I would not overplay the bigamy issue, and in mention of it note the political expediancy of Luther's approval of Hesse's second marriage. Further, as I noted in the discussion about it a few months ago, I think the witchcraft issue is a red herring -- Luther's views were the same on that front as the vast majority of his contemporaries (but whether it stays or goes is not a major issue for me).

As for what's missing? The section on Luther's Bible is too small in proportion to the impact that it had. Modern German was shaped by Luther's Bible in a manner analogous to the combined impact of KJV and Shakespeare on the shape of modern English (or better, late victorian English). There should be mention of the Black Cloister of Erfurt, which was an observant (i.e., strict) branch of Augustinianism - shaping Luther's antagonism toward more lax monastic orders and his understanding of the severity of the Law (McGrath's Theology of the Cross is an excellent sourcefor this, although I don't have it in front of me for a citation). Finally, I think the article screams for some mention of Jan Hus, and how the events of 100 years prior shaped the interpretation of the events of the Reformation and the reaction to Luther.

That's all that really stands out to me in a first pass through the article. Pastordavid 22:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I also feel the writing is problematic. It's unencyclopedic, and often reads as though it was written by someone who didn't quite understand it, or as though sentences have been copied and pasted in from other sources, without paying attention to flow or sense. For example: "The Emperor had granted Luther a safe-conduct for his return to Wittenberg. Frederick the Wise, who had arranged for Luther's safe-conduct, arranged for him to be taken into safe custody on his way home by a company of masked horsemen; he was then carried to Wartburg Castle at Eisenach, where he stayed for about a year."

Various problems: the repetition of "safe conduct" or "safe custody" three times in two sentences; that Luther was "carried" to the castle; that he was taken into "safe custody" by a "company of masked horsemen." It has the tone of having been pieced together from elsewhere, but there are no references. Most of the article is written in the same tone. That Luther "affectionately called [his wife] "Katy"." How do we know this? How do we know that everyone didn't call her Katy? And anyway, why does it matter what he called his wife? The whole thing has that homespun flavor to it.

Other paragraphs are impenetrable to anyone who doesn't already know the issues: "Luther, still under the Imperial Ban, was left behind at the Coburg fortress while his elector and colleagues from Wittenberg attended the diet. The Augsburg Confession, a summary of the Lutheran faith authored by Philipp Melanchthon but influenced by Luther,[37] was read aloud to the emperor. It was the first specifically Lutheran confession included in the Book of Concord of 1580, and is regarded as the principal confession of the Lutheran Church." What on earth does it mean? There's no context, no narrative. Reminds me of something out of a school textbook.

The whole article needs to be written in a more scholarly style, from the point of view of secondary sources — "A has argued that Luther intended this or that; B has written that, after establishing X, Luther proceeded to argue that Y. Here is the significance of this or that." As things stand, we have no way of knowing what's accurate, or what's important and what isn't, and the point of our content policies is to make it easy for the general reader to go find the sources and check the accuracy and notability of our material.

I agree with you about the Bible issue. The only two things I remember about Luther from school were his translation of the Bible into the vernacular, and the revolutionary nature of it; and the influence of his work on the Nazis. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I made pretty much the same observation about nine-ten months ago, and said that the whole article needed a rewrite, and I was ripped to shreds and attacked. That is the kind of thing that has been a problem and that cannot be repeated. The article needs a top-to-bottom rewrite, pure and simple. Take a look at the discussion under "Culling Needed" from last August [1]. Just one of many frustrating and fruitless attempts to reduce the hagiographic content of this article.--Mantanmoreland 22:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The other thing I meant to say is that, in sticking too closely to summary style, the article almost entirely lacks narrative flow, staggering from one truncated point to the next. Summary style shouldn't mean that none of the issues are explained properly on this page. The bottom line is that a reader coming to this who knew nothing about Martin Luther wouldn't learn much, because very little is really developed. It's hard to explain a complex issue like Luther's life and influence in simpler terms, but it would be good to try. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:45, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and as long as we're moving on, here's something else to chew over while we're doing so: Why do we need Theology of Martin Luther? Take a look at the talk page and note the comment from Fishal at 01:40, 5 September 2006, about predominance of sources from the Missouri Synod. --Mantanmoreland 22:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The Wiki Jewish Cabal is at it again, using their multiple identifies and fake names to gum up things here again. It's a shame that a handful of fanatics who obviously do not have a life can so badly ruin the integrity of Wikipedia. It is precisely this kind of behavior that makes Wikipedia a well-deserved laughing stock.

I denounce the anti-Semitic hate-speech contained in the post immediately above. Meister Brau 15:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm flattered ... I've never been a part of a Jewish cabal before ...;) Pastordavid 15:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't put too much stock in it. I still remember being accused of being part of a Christian cabal on the Jesus page. Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 16:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

For some info about the "black cloister" of Erfurt, see the section "Reform Movements" in Hermits of St. Augustine - its not that well written (I would guess a copy-paste from the old Catholic Encyclopedia), but it gets the idea across. Pastordavid 15:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Readability

Leaving aside the stickier issues around content disputes, I am doing some re-writing over the next few days - looking to improve the overall readability of the article. I am trying to NOT change the meaning of any statements in the article, and to not change any of the content. If I accidentally do so, please feel free to change it back - my only interest in these revisions is improving the prose. Pastordavid 15:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration between Luther and Cranach

You have seen the portrait of Martin Luther by Cranach which is at the beginning of the article. But there is more to the story than has been reported here. Luther also commisioned Cranach to illustrate a particulary foul criticism of the Pope. I do not have access to primary sources, but here is the information.

Against the Papacy at Rome Founded by the Devil (1545) is said to be one of Luther's most coarse and vehement works he ever produced. Scatological satires of the Pope and Rome accompany it. http://www.online-literature.com/martin-luther/

In the last five or six years of his life, for example, Luther published violent attacks on Catholics, Turks, Jews, and other Protestants. The most notorious of these polemics are his attacks on the Jews, especially his On the Jews and the jews had aids and Their Lies and his On the Ineffable Name and On Christ's Lineage, both of 1543. These treatises contain considerable exegesis of the Old Testament, but this is overshadowed by the pervasive vulgarity of Luther's language and by the incredibly harsh recommendations he offered for the treatment of contemporary Jews. Their synagogues and schools should be burned, their homes destroyed, their books seized, their rabbis forbidden to teach, and their money taken away from them. They should be put to work in the fields or, better yet, expelled from Germany. Even contemporary Protestants were shocked by these writings. Rivaling his anti-Jewish treatises for vulgarity and violence of expression is Against Hanswurst of 1541. Luther outdid even the violence and vulgarity of Against Hanswurst in his 1545 Against the Papacy at Rome, Founded by the Devil. On the heels of these treatises he published a series of scatological and violent woodcuts that, in most graphic terms, suggested how good Christians should treat the papacy. I n these and other treatises, Luther bestialized his opponents, most frequently likening them to pigs or asses, or called them liars, murderers, and hypocrites. They were all minions of the devil. He directed the devil to his ass, he renamed the papal decretals "decraptals" [Drecketalen] and the Farnese pope "Fart-ass" (farlz Esel) and "Her Sodomitical Hellishness Pope Paula 111," and he threw around words for excrement with great abandon. In the woodcuts by Lucas Cranach that Luther commissioned at the end of his life, he had the papal church depicted as being expelled from the anus of an enormous she-devil and suggested, once again in picture, that the pope, cardinals, and bishops should be hung from gallows with their tongues nailed alongside. http://www.ctsfw.edu/library/files/pb/1468

graphic illustration at http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2005/09/is-this-religious-anti-catholicism-you.html

Meister Brau 16:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Why not add a section quoting that? I attempted to do so the greater part of a year ago and was hooted down.--Mantanmoreland 16:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

This is another situation where I would question the relevence. Yes, there were insults hurled from Luther toward Rome. Just as there were in the opposite direction. Indeed, the insult woodcuts from the era are all sort of like this - crude, mean-spirited, etc. If this is a notable fact, I would be more likely to expect it in an article on Cranach than on Luther. Pastordavid 16:41, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It's clearly relevant here, and interesting. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict):::Yes, I was about to say that. In what conceivable way could a work by Martin Luther attacking the pope not be "relevant" to an article on the author of the work? --Mantanmoreland 17:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. The other point is that it brings Luther alive. I've been arguing for a long time that this article makes him sound deadly dull. But someone as revolutionary as Luther must have been a complex, probably difficult, probably courageous and irreverent (i.e. rude and annoying), human being. To present a three-dimensional portrait of him, we need the good and the bad. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Do I understand Pastordavid to suggest that this pamphlet is relevant to an article on the illustrator of the pamphlet (if there is one) but not the author? I thought we were "moving on." We don't seem to be.--Mantanmoreland 17:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I did state that I thought that the woodcuts themselves would be more relevent in an article on Cranach than on Luther. And, I do not see how having discussion is "not moving on." A comment was made, which I responded to. I did not edit war, revert, or respond unncivilly in response to the comment. If it is going to be a roadblock every time there is a difference of opinion, this will not get very far.

I do appreciate the description of possibilities for the article given by SV just above. My concern is that -- while attempting to add color/dimension to the article -- it is very easy to spend more time on rabbit trails that are interesting and colorful, but which focus on trivial and tangential topics rather than the core focus. Pastordavid 18:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

So you're not opposed to adding a section making reference to Against the Papacy at Rome -- or are you? If you are, please state why it is a "rabbit trail" or whatever.--Mantanmoreland 18:54, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

My reason for posting this on the Talk page was first to illustrate that there are some significant works by Luther that are known to the subsidized Luther researchers, but are not even mentioned here. I agree with the point that this reveals some dimensions about Luther that are interesting and lifelike. Not the sanitized version that many generations were provided. Notice that we have two Luther works, "Against Hanswurst" (1541) and "Against the Papacy at Rome, Founded by the Devil" for which there are no known English translations. I do not understand the reasoning for suggesting that this be in the Cranach Wikipedia article but not the one for Luther. Meister Brau 18:34, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

It's not clear that there is an objection outstanding at present. Why not add a section referring to it? If there's something wrong with the section, it can be removed or changed easily enough.--Mantanmoreland 18:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it is more appropriate to post it here for comments...

Recent Trends in Martin Luther Research

In recent years, there has been significant translation and "discovery" of some of Martin Luther’s most controversial works. This has augmented the large body of Luther’s work that was translated and published by various Lutheran Church organizations and their related publishing companies, and presented a more controversial picture of this very prolific writer and complex personality.

An English translation of “On the Jews and Their Lies” [2]was published commercially in 1971, and revealed to many readers a side of Martin Luther that they had not previously known.

Another of Martin Luther’s works was “Vom Schem Hamphoras”[3] which contains graphic “toilet talk” against the Jews that was translated and published independantly as part of “The Jew In Christian Theology” by Gerhard Falk in 1971.

There is no known English translation of “Against the Papacy at Rome Founded by the Devil” (1545), but it has been described as “one of Luther's most coarse and vehement works”. It is said to contain scatological satires of the Pope, along with illustrations [4] by Cranach (who is known for painting Luther’s portrait)[5].

Another of Luther’s works, "Against Hanswurst" (1541) was translated as part of "Luther's Works" and is described as “rivaling his anti-Jewish treatises for vulgarity and violence of expression”[6].

Since some of these works are only now being revealed, and the only English descriptions are often “secondary sources”, this has been a source of some disagreement among researcers as to their relevance. But the trend has been toward translation, publication and review, rather than silent archiving.

Meister Brau 20:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Against Hanswurst was translated in 1966 and is in volume 41 of the 55 volume American Edition of Luther's Works. On the Councils and the Church and On the Roman Papacy, which you mention in this post are also in this volume.--Drboisclair 00:53, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure. I like the neutral tone, and I think it would be good, if appropriated sourced.--Mantanmoreland 21:18, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The first sentences have a bit of WP:OR in them. But the rest is quite good. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:23, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

That is true, but the tone is what appealed to me about it. I think that this kind of objective tone is what is lacking generally in the article. I'd suggest that Meister Brau provide citations, fix the first paragraph and insert it in the article. I imagine the end is a good place for it. --Mantanmoreland 21:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I see Meister has fixed the first paragraph of his proposed section. I think that, as per Jossi, the main thing is to source it. --Mantanmoreland 21:38, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

We should give other editors a chance to comment. Meister Brau 21:48, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Very good. Just the kind of thing that's needed in this article. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Antisemitism section

On the issue of this article improving, I've received a detailed critical analysis of the antisemtism section from an independent Wikipedian, an experienced and respected editor. I'm thefore going to try a copy edit of that section. Basically, his criticism is that the edit warring has led to poor writing (X says, but Y argues, and Z insists ...). He also feels it lacks substance. I can do a fairly quick copy edit, but adding more substance will take longer, as I'm waiting for some reading material to arrive. Anyway, I'll try to make a start. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:31, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I've rewritten it for flow, reduced it by 500 words, added material from Robert Michael, and tried to make it more of an explanatory narrative, rather than just a series of claims. I still have citations to add. If people disagree with it, I'd appreciate comments here rather than reverting. In particular, if anyone feels it's still too long, please suggest here exactly which bits could be cut without losing narrative flow. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

As Sacha Cohen (my favorite Jewish antisemite) would say, "Very nasse!" Kaldari 22:09, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. :-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

The statement "Luther successfully campaigned against the Jews in Saxony, Brandenburg, and Silesia" is suspect. Here is a quote from the preface to On the Jews and their Lies from Luther's Works from Fortress Press:

Fortunately, Luther's proposals did not meet with a widespread response among the authorities. The treatise itself apparently did not have a large sale, as contrasted to his treatise That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew of twenty years before. In no case were his suggestions for the burning of synagogues, the razing of houses, and the seizure of books followed. In Neumark, however, the right of safe-conduct of Jews was withdrawn. The same occurred in Electoral Saxony, where Elector John Frederick revoked certain concessions he had made to the Jews in 1539 (following his earlier repressive edict of 1537). (footnote: Cf. above, p. 61). In so doing, the elector specifically cited Luther’s treatises as having alerted him to the Jews' nefarious designs. Philip of Hesse also introduced new measures prohibiting Jews from engaging in money-lending and requiring them to attend Christian sermons. In Brandenburg, on the other hand, Elector Joachim followed a tolerant policy, and when accusations were made against local Jews, Luther’s old antagonist Agricola (footnote: Cf. above, pp. 102–106) stepped forward to defend them. The immediate effect of Luther’s proposals thus was small; (footnote: for further details, see Lewin, op. cit., pp. 07 ff., and Maurer, op. cit., pp. 416 ff.) it remained for a later century to refine and systematize them and apply them on a massive scale. (Luther's Works vol. 47, page 136: Fortress Press, ©1971).

Specifically, Brandenburg is said to have followed a policy of toleration. I also question whether Luther actually "campaigned," not to mention that the sentence implies that his suggestions were actually followed, which is false. These are just some thoughts. (69.217.62.101 05:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)).

As a longtime journalist, I think the anti-Semitism reference should be farther down in the article, it seems distracting to have it so close to the top given the context of the era. --70.51.185.254 (talk) 04:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Citations

The other problem is that many of the footnotes used a Harvard-style reference (Smith 1990) instead of giving the full details, but the article doesn't have a full references section, so readers can't quickly look up who Smith 1990 is. It also means that if the first citation disappears after an edit, subsequent footnotes relying on it are left hanging. I'm therefore going to go through the citations at some point and give full citations in the notes. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:05, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Very nice work. Meister Brau

Fascinating stuff, Slim. It reads very well. Thank you and the anonymous user for this rewrite. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I like the new section about the recent publications. Thank you, Meister Brau.

In case anyone wonders why I don't have page numbers for the Robert Michaels book I've used as a source in the antisemitism section, I only have a copy of one chapter and the footnotes, and it has no page numbers on it. I've ordered the book and I'll add numbers as soon as it arrives. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 06:09, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I am willing to do some research, if needed. What do we need to get this article back to FA status? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

It was GA status. I think we might need to expand or add any areas that have been downplayed or left out, and make the writing flow better. There's been an overuse of summary style to the point where some of the sections are hard to understand because no context is provided.

Does anyone know what this means exactly? "Luther worked to reintroduce the practice of receiving Holy Communion in both kinds, that is, receiving both the consecrated bread and wine, rather than the practice of denying the wine to lay people." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 15:29, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The Early Christians received under both species, I think, but the teaching of the Catholic Church has always been the Christ is present, whole and entire, under either species. In other words, if you receive one crumb from the host, you have received the blood as well as the body, and if you receive one drop from the chalice, you have received the body as well as the blood, because after the Resurrection, his body and blood can no longer be separated. So, under Catholic teaching, you don't get "more" of Jesus by receiving a bigger host, or by receiving from the chalice as well as under the form of bread. You don't get more graces. But it's a "fuller sign".

A priest, while saying Mass, MUST receive under both forms, as otherwise the sacrifice is considered to be incomplete. But a priest attending Mass said by another priest would normally only receive under one form.

For various reasons, danger of spillage being one, it became uncommon for lay people to receive under both kinds. At the time of the reformation, I think some Protestants argued that you hadn't fully received unless you received under both kinds. The Catholic Church considered this a heresy, and I think after the Council of Trent, communion under one kind became even more firmly emphasised in the Catholic Church as a way of reinforcing the doctrine that Christ was present "whole and entire" under either species. It's now becoming more common for Catholic churches to offer communion under both kinds (at least in the UK). Musical Linguist and/or Str1977 might be able to add to that. ElinorD (talk) 15:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, thank you, Elinor, that's very helpful. What I'm looking for is a way to present this that anyone could understand, and without making the section much longer. I tried to copy edit it last night then realized I didn't have a clue what it was about. :-)

If the body and blood are considered inseparable, why did a priest saying Mass have to receive both forms? And why did the Reformers argue that you hadn't fully received unless you received both? (And why are they called forms, kinds, and species?) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll ask ML and Str to chime in if they're around, in case I ignorantly lapse into heresy :), but I'll have a shot at answering anyway.

The Mass, according to Catholic teaching, is the Sacrifice of Calvary made present, and the priest is offering the sacrifice in persona Christi. Nevertheless, Christ does not die again. ("Christ, rising again from the dead, dieth now no more." Romans, 6,9.) So the way that Calvary is made present (making the Mass trulyl a sacrifice) is that his body is separated from his blood, which occur by the priest consecrating them separately. I think that the priest consuming both species is in some way connected to that, because if the priest doesn't receive Communion, the Mass is incomplete, whereas a lay person can attend Mass without receiving.

The reformers rejected transubstantiation, and, depending on denomination, accepted that Christ was present "in the bread and wine" (not that the bread and wine were changed into the body and blood in such a way that there was no bread or wine left), or that he was present "with the bread and wine" or that he was present "spiritually", etc. Some reformers believed that the bread was changed into the body alone and the wine was changed into the blood alone, so that the people who received under one form were in some sense "deprived" of something.

Regarding species and form and kinds, perhaps ML or Str could weigh in. Some Catholics use those words to avoid a so-called heretical use of the words "bread" and "wine" by themselves, but of course there must be some deeper, original meaning that I'm ignorant of. It's okay to say that someone received "under the form of wine", or "under the appearance of wine", but not to say that they received "the wine". I'm not really sure of the difference between "form" and "species" and "appearance" and "kinds". However, most Protestants wouldn't have problems calling them "bread" and "wine", because they only believe in some kind of spiritual presence.

Hope that helps, but if ML or Str disagree, then I think you'd be better off going by what they say! I'm not quite sure what Lutherans call the two species after consecration, but I'd feel it would be safer for the article to say "the practice of denying the CUP to lay people". ElinorD (talk) 17:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Elinor is right on the mark IMHO.

I do not know where the words "form", "species" etc. come from. But I think they were used to refer to the two gifts of the eucharist because a) bread and wine may imply that they have not been changed, and b) Body and Blood may imply a restriction of the Body to the one gift and the Blood to the other. (On the other hand, when distributing communion, either species is called the Body of Christ and the Blood of Christ respectively.

Receiving under both kinds is the normal way of receiving and of course the two gifts sensualize (if that is a word) one "aspect" more then the other. IMHO, it is not that the Host is so much both body and blood but that whoever receives the host shares in the whole Christ (of course, that is just my own reflection).

Because it is the normal way to receive the priest receives always under both kinds. (And a practical aspect: the Cup is an essential part of the Eucharistic sacrifice. And of course someone has to consume it, either all the congregation or the priest alone.)

In the Eastern Churches, BTW, the faithful receive both kinds together, the Body soaked in the Blood and distributed via a spoon.

As for the restriction of the Cup to priests: the Church's de facto position changed a bit throughout history, depending on the issues of the time: in the 5th century, Pope Gelasius excommunicated anyone who would refuse to receive in the Cup to combat certain ascetic-gnostic heresies that rejected the use of wine. Later on, in the Early Middle Ages Eucharistic piety went along strange paths: many people avoided receiving the Eucharist for fear they wouldn't be worthy - the Church insisted that frequent communion is a good thing, introduced the idea of an obligatory communion once a year (usually at Easter, to this the annual confession goes back). But the notion of unworthiness continued, now specialising on the Cup (as the Blood is often thought as the real saving substance, washing us clean from sin, it was to be somehow "more holy" than the Host, compare all the Blood miracles, Grail literature etc.): they would insist on abstaining from the Cup while receiving the Host. The Church de facto yielded to these practices but insisted that whoever receives under one species receives the whole Christ, not just a part of Him.

This then became the standard practice for centuries, with practical reasons (the danger of spillage) playing a role too. It was only challenged around 1400 by the Hussite movement who saw the restriction of the Cup to the priest as some clerical privilege. Therefore they rejected this and demanded communion "sub utraque forma". The moderate wing of the movement therefore is termed "Utraquists", content with being allowed to receive under both species. The Popes however would allow this only grudingly and used every opportunity to return to the restriction.

The reformation took up the issues of the Hussites and rejecting a special priesthood they had to reject such a restriction as well. In Luther's case, concerns for receiving the whole Christ played a part as well (as Luther fervently believed in the Christ's presence in the gifts not just during communion but continually - a view not shared by Lutherans) - Luther believed that the bread and wine were the Body and Blood of Christ - despite his rejection of transubstantiation - while other Protestants, notably Zwingli and Calvin rejected this, taking it "merely as a symbol". To those, I guess, the "clerical privilege" line was more important.

The Church reacted to many Protestant views by emphasizing the challenged aspects of the faith, e.g. Marian piety, the ordained priesthood, Eucharist piety. However, the restriction of the Cup to the priest was only a very common practice and not in any way unalterable. After Vatican II the trend reversed, generally allowing the faithful to receive under both species, though whether and how far this is actually done differs from country to country and congregation to congregation. But a common thing is to receive under both species on Maundy Thursday (when the Mass especially commemorates the institution of the Eucharist by Christ).

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 08:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

"Form" and "species" come from the Artistotelean metaphysic (especially as interpreted through Aquinas) that was the basis for most medieval sacramental theology. Pastordavid 22:30, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Star Trek and Martin Luther

Please see: "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield". Who's Lokai and who's Bele here? Does it make a difference? Griselinia 08:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I know the show in question but I have no idea what the person above is referring to. Could you perhaps clarify a little? John Carter 18:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Probably not-very-well-executed irony. Bele and Lokai were locked in a lifelong battle to the death because they focused on their differences rather than their commonalities. My remark was made in reference to the back and forth discussions going on here. I'm sure both sides are sincere and have valid points.Griselinia 18:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Luther and anti-semitism

The current section does not give enough context to Luther's views. In the middle ages anti-semitism was widespread and to fairly represent his writings in the setting of the time this needs to be referred to. I am by no means an expert and reading this talk page is enough to scare off anyone from being bold so I'm bringing a link here for discussion to see whether others think it could be of use in balancing the section. [7] The only problem with this is that the section is currently the largest despite having a whole article devoted to the Jews and their lies book. Sophia 15:52, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I would not think that you should be scared to be bold. If you are uncomfortable making these additions, you can always use the talk page and make proposals. I am sure that there should material about this aspect, probably from contemporary Lutheran bodies. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:03, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Also note that that section, takes only but a small percentage of the whole article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I assume you mean the language in italics, which appears to originate from the Internet Medieval Sourcebook at Fordham University [8]. That's certainly a reputable project, and from a fine institution. I certainly don't see a problem with mentioning somewhere in the article a reference to the coarseness of his language, as that would apply to all quotes and not just this section.--Mantanmoreland 16:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your lack of boldness, Sophia, especially with this section. Do you have any sources showing how widespread antisemitism was in the Middle Ages? The point about Luther is that his was the work that was remembered. Bear in mind that we're not talking about the man here; we're talking about the work. It is the work that has survived; it is the work that has been influential. And it is the work that Robert Michael argues acquired the status of scripture in Germany, with Luther becoming the most widely read author of his time, and therefore having a tremendous influence on the development of German antisemitism.

As for the length, there has been an overuse of summary style on this page, to the point where certain sections are hard, if not impossible, to understand for people who don't already know the subject. Therefore, please don't judge any section too long simply because it's longer than the shorter ones.

Mantan, I'd like to see a section on the coarseness of his language, because he's famous for it, and we don't mention it, except in passing in a couple of the other sections. I don't know where to find a good source on it though. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you think the Internet Medieval Sourcebook might be considered a proper source? Lamentably it is not footnoted on the "coarseness" passage.--Mantanmoreland 16:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

It looks okay to me. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I added a paragraph in the final section.--Mantanmoreland 17:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Re the sourcebook -- my concerns were unwarranted. The Internet History Sourcebooks Project, of which the Medieval Sourcebook belongs, is a significant endeavor and has a lengthy article of its own.--Mantanmoreland 17:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Good addtion. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

(edit clash) As I said I'm no expert but on most articles the largest section is usually about the most influential aspects of a subject. The way this article currently reads it looks as if Luther founded Nazism which does not concord with what I know (Wagner is acknowledged as a much bigger influence but look how that section is balanced by the whole). Here are some links from which hopefully a starting point for an NPOV balance can be achieved. [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]. Looking at The Merchant of Venice gives a pretty good idea of a stereotypical Jew according to Middle Age views. As for not being bold - I think some of the comments further up are disgraceful and do nothing to enchance the positive editing atmosphere of Wikipedia. It is heartening to see things moving on but I think the pillorying of long time editors to clear the field will be counter productive to the quality of the article. Steps need to be taken to be able to work constructively wih all - even those who have made errors. No one should feel uncomfortable editing on an article when they approach it in good faith. Sophia 17:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I've had the same concerns as you for many months. Hopefully the air is cleared and we can move forward.--Mantanmoreland 17:41, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

The section doesn't state or imply that he founded Nazism. It says that his work was influential in the development of German antisemitism, and that it provided a convenient foundation for the antisemitism of the Nazis. As for Wagner, he is not acknowledged to be a "much bigger influence," and the sections in his article dealing with Nazism are 845 words long with only six sources, not something that would work here.

As for the "errors," that issue is settled, Sophia, so there's no need to bring it up again. Editing and discussion in the last few days has been the most constructive here for a long time. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:46, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

If I'm wrong about Wagner then so are many others. [15] Sophia 18:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

(restore indent) Interesting article. As a (admittedly lapsed) Catholic but ardent anti-capitalist I must say I appreciate this rigorous take on Luther... however, focusing on his influence on the Nazis seems a bit much. Didn't the Protestant Reformation also, directly and indirectly, lead to the deaths of countless numbers of people, and set conditions allowing for the development of global capitalism, per Weber? I don't think the Nazis were Lutherans, as intriguing as the concept may be, such as the impression the summary leaves... and in any case I don't think you can realistically blame Luther for events which occured centuries later, for which, if you want to point fingers, Nietzsche was a much closer antecedent who probably deserves more blame for the Holocaust even though he was not anti-Semitic. Though modern state capitalism does take on fascist tendencies, which can be said to have originated, ideologically at least, at some far removed point and distant point, with Luther, perhaps the most shocking aspect of Nazi fascism was how ahead of its time it was? (per Adorno, Horkheimer "The Dialectic of Enlightenment.")—ACADEMY LEADER ^FOCUS! 04:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

In keeping what Sophia wrote, the article shouldn't imply that anti-semitism is the main heritage of Luther. It is merely a side-note, albeit a very smelly one.

Luther's view shouldn't be identified with Nazism or made the sole cause, nor should his view be drowned in supposedly anti-semitic Middle Ages (using anti-semitism as a shorthand for judaeophobic, actually there was not anti-semitism in the narrow sense before the 19th century.)

Luther didn't found Nazism anymore than Wagner did. Neither did. Hitler did, of course receiving some ideas from them. However Hitler did not read Luther's book in his formative years.

Shylock is not the medieval stereotype of a Jew because the play is not from the Middle Ages. He is a vice figure known from morality plays like Everyman and also present in other Elizabethan plays, though he looks a bit more human than Barabbas. There were no Jews (officially) in England at the time and the Merchant of Venice does not concern itself with Jews at all but rather with motives of loyalty, friendship, vengeance, grace, law (though the latter two have a connection to theological anti-Judaism).

Academy Leader, the Weber thesis is just that a thesis and cannot be treated as established fact. And the same goes for Adorno's great but nonetheless very speculative and ahistorical book. Capitalism does not equal fascism does not equal Nazism. Luther has nothing to do with the rise of capitalism (not even Weber claims that) and also nothing to do with the rise of Nazism (Fascism anyway happening in another country) apart from his contributions to the omnipotent state and the described element of anti-semitism.

In any case, this shouldn't be a game of "blaming X for the Holocaust" - the blame should remain with those considering, planning and executing the Shoa. (Just as I don't see Rousseau directly blamed for the reign of terror in 1794.) I am not denying that Nietzsche had a profound influence not just on Nazism but on other inhuman developments (Nietzsche apologetics being too vocal recently) - but Nietzsche was just an influential philosopher in his time and/or someone who put into writing (in extreme form) currents present in his society - currently trickling down to a vagabond like Hitler. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 08:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the information probably belongs in a separate article "Origins of Nazi Ideology" or "History of German anti-Semitism," not in a front page biography of Luther. References to his anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic texts I am ok with, making these the basis for inferring that he was responsible for the rise of the Third Reich seems another thing altogether.

On an unrelated note, a friend of mine is a graduate student instructor for an undergraduate history course on the Holocaust. She says one of the most shocking things about teaching the material is how the some of the students will speak admiringly of German military achievements and say, "If only the Nazis weren't anti-Semitic." This is why there is no massive outcry in the US against the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan. Adorno and Horkheimer were right.—ACADEMY LEADER ^FOCUS! 21:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

It belongs there only if it's accurate and only in a NPOV form. Weber's claim about Protestantism and Captitalism does not belong there as it has not bearing on Nazism whatsoever.

Actually I do not understand your shock. If people can admire achievements without any point such as in sports people also can admire achievements in other fields regardless of what the point is, i.e. regardless of what warfare is aiming at. They actual reason for the lack of outcry is that it is not part of their lives. Not that I think that there should be an outcry about Afghanistan, or that those suddenly opposing war in Iraq (I leave out the definitve article, as this is no longer the same war, the first one was clearly won by the US) are in any way intellectually applaudable or courageous. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 15:58, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

This is unrelated, but it is shocking to me that the initial invasion of Poland and later conquest of Europe seemed to get a moral green light from these guys... and girls, actually. When I mentioned how "ahead of their time" the Nazis were I meant how they were able to use the "mass media/propaganda" of their time to capture the imaginations and harness the support of the German people. Everything under the Nazis, even and especially athletics and aesthetics, (and history and historical figures) became questions of party politics in determining the "German character." (See the films of Leni Riefenstahl) Underpinning these were questions of power and efficiency... what Adorno and Horkheimer recognized as the concrete outcome of the "Enlightenment" or of rational thinking as applied on massive industrial scales. This is of course speculative on my part, but I think that the reason Bush has encountered flagging support from the right in the US is for reasons of basic incompetence, that is, failure to execute his agenda in the frighteningly rational and competent way the Germans were able to. Towards nationalism and die-hard party support, the neo-con right in the US could only dream of what the Nazis were able to achieve, but not for a lack of trying, and not because they are sympathizers, but because fascism is the probabilistic natural outcome of rationality as it can be applied on massive national and industrial scales.

Note: My references to Weber, Adorno, Horkheimer were offered in support of my comments re: fascism, and were not suggested as potential references for the subject of this article. The entire legacy of the Protestant Reformation is frankly too big of a subject to be addressed here. —ACADEMY LEADER ^FOCUS! 21:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Some notes, if they would be any help

I long ago gave up editing here because I felt that my edits were not in keeping with the drive for brevity. I don't blame CTS or Drboisclair for that but a red-name slasher who took the article down from over 76kb to about 48kb without even moving anything per summary style. In the process he reduced, for example, a complex section about the response of the papacy which I had worked on (it's difficult material) to almost nothing, and I became discouraged (if you wonder why Miltitz appeared out of the blue it's because the previous mention of him was removed). The worst thing for me was that no one any longer seemed interested in mapping the incremental shifts in Luther's position, which are precisely mappable, if you look carefully (removal of the Leipzig debate, for example, was particularly damaging to the article's narrative, in my opinion).

At the time I gave up I was working on some of the central sections, which are badly written. I know little about Luther, but what I was trying to do was rewrite the word-for-word Schaff into our own words, and to do that I went back and read Schaff and sometimes chose different information to include. If my rough (I emphasize rough) drafts are of any use, they are here: User:Qp10qp/Sandbox (I have checked all the refs unless noted). The two most interesting elements there, for me, are Melanchthon's comment about the way Luther was living, with his mildewed bed, etc. (humanises him), and his attack on the peasants as mad dogs, because the language is of a piece with that he used against the Jews and the witches. On the other hand, his tone in the Invocavit Sermons and in his response to the peasants who petitioned him with the Twelve Articles was mellow and sane, it seems to me. Which makes me wonder if he was bipolar or something.

Anyway, I won't be editing the article, but best of luck to those who do. Don't let it age you too much. qp10qp 18:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Qp10, thanks for your notes, but please come back. You're exactly the kind of editor we need here: a great writer and researcher. Look, folks, this is a great man we're writing about. He was revolutionary in his time, and not only then, but still. The attitude that he promoted — let the people have direct access to knowledge! — is exactly the attitude that Wikipedia is still having to promote hundreds of years later, because until very recently, the loftier-than-thou position that the masses can't be trusted with certain types of information remained firmly in place, and it's really only the Internet that's killing it completely. Martin Luther was one of the first people to question it, taking on arguably the most powerful institution in the world at the time, and succeeding.

We do him no justice by writing in this mealy-mouthed fashion. Let it all come out! The coarse language, the legacy of his antisemitism, and anything else that brings his work alive, that tells us why his legacy is still being argued about. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Wow, maybe you could get Martin Luther designated “the Grandfather of the Internet.” Or maybe “a co-founder of Wikipedia…” Jimbo might take issue with being associated, though, and I don’t know if Luther himself would have approved of “a free scripture that anyone can edit,” but still, yes, “let it all come out!” as it were.—ACADEMY LEADER ^FOCUS! 04:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you're referring to this series of edits by User:Justas Jonas. Justas Jonas's entire Wikipedia career lasted approximately 3 weeks, most of that devoted to slashing material out of the Martin Luther article. I see no reason why his deletions should be kept. Jayjg ^(talk) 19:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Not only that, but I see from his user page that he was a sockpuppet of a banned editor. --Mantanmoreland 19:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh no! I forgot, Justus Jonas was the infamous Ptmcain! Jayjg ^(talk) 19:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Which reminds me that Keesiewonder, who was responsible for making this discovery in the first place, should be invited back to the page.--Mantanmoreland 19:58, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

"Qp10, thanks for your notes, but please come back. You're exactly the kind of editor we need here: a great writer and researcher."

Hey, Qp10m, for what it's worth my fellow Wikipedian, I more than second SlimVirgin's opinion. Please come back! Luther was/is an incredibly dramatic figure, and in many ways (thought I disagree with him on certain theological points) a great soul, whose life and work (regardless of one's opinions of the man) are deserving of the very best editors. Therefore I implore you, hang tight and don't be discouraged. I - and I'm willing to bet not a few others - are rooting for you!

And Slim, if I may say so, what great words of passion and encouragement! It's folks like you (and of course all the wonderful regular editors here: CTS, Drbois, Matan, etc.) that make me proud to be, if only in a feeble sort of way, a part of this marvelous enterprise known as Wikipedia. Delta x 06:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, sir. Flattery will get you everywhere.:)--Mantanmoreland 16:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

There is no such thing as going into too much detail in an article like this one. Anytime someone thinks something needs to be summarized, it would be helpful to hive it off to its own article. Every section in this article ideally, in my opinion, should eventually be a summary of an entire article elsewhere at wikipedia, which in turn can be structured the same way, so that in the end, an entire book's worth of sourced data can exist here in useful sized chunks. Bottom line - don't throw away good stuff, hive it off to its own article. WAS 4.250 15:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

True, but there has been a problem in the past with overuse of summary style, which has made it hard for laypeople and non-Lutherans to understand specific aspects of the article.--Mantanmoreland 16:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Delta. :-) I've restored Qp10qp's material. [16] [17] [18] [19] It's good stuff; makes those sections a lot clearer. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:59, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, Mantanmoreland, you are both welcome. And now it's back to task of purging a ton of junk, which explains why, in this picture of me at my computer, I look somewhat flustered - I am. Just look at that disarray!! But in a week or so all will be, once again, well ordered (at least for a while). :) Delta x 02:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

"Recent Research"

The "recent research" section is a little misleading. Perhaps there are some historians for whom this is their focus, but having just completed my masters a short while ago (and the same is true while working on my bachelor's), I did not find this to be the focus of anyone's "recent research" among church historians and theologians (which is where I would say the majority of Luther research is done). Much more time, energy, and ink is being spent on the so-called "Finnish school" of Luther studies: a group led by Tuomo Mannermaa of the U of Helsinka, which reads Luther through the eyes of Finnish Lutherans' conversations with their Orthodox brothers and sisters (much more emphasis on deification, sanctification, and the ways the great Greek Fathers shaped Luther as much as the Latin Fathers). Some published examples -just to name a few of the better known ones - of this strain of "recent recearch" (in English), include:

• Rob. Jenson and Carl Braatan, eds., Union with Christ: The New Finnish Interpretation of Luther (Eerdmans, 1988).
• Tuomo Mannerma, Christ Present In Faith: Luther's View Of Justification (Augsburg Fortress, 2005).
• Veli-Matti Karkkainen, One with God: Salvation As Deification and Justification (Liturgical Press, 2005)

-- Pastordavid 13:38, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome to add some material about other recent research. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

This is more serious. Until such material is added, this section should be entitled "Recent research on Luther's controversial writings" or something like that. It is not accurate to end the article with a section implying controversy is the direction of contemporary Luther scholarship! Ideally, a bold WikiGenius would give this article some structure, splitting up Luther's Life, Theology/Writings, Impact/Legacy, and Controversies. The Norwegians have managed to create a Featured Article without splitting things up, but if we must dwell on controversy (and of course we must, we are the English Wikipedia), then at least a Wagner-like structure would be more appropriate in my opinion. --Merzul 21:28, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

It's best to avoid forking criticism off onto its own page if at all possible. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I didn't mean forking off any criticism, but simply re-structuring the article. In any case, that was just my speculation as to what would help the article in general, but the immediate concern raised by Pastordavid is that the last section is highly misleading, since it contains an inaccurate assessment of the current direction of Luther research. --Merzul 22:16, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

We don't know that it's an inaccurate assessment. I think there's a very interesting section to be written on the extent to which the churches have controlled or directed the publication of material, the translations, the textbooks, the encyclopedia articles. I know there is material on at least one of their websites that I would regard as straightforwardly inaccurate. The result is that, when we add a section on something controversial, editors turn up saying "that can't be right; we didn't learn about that in school," whereas the problem lies not with the material or the secondary sources, but with the exclusion of that material and those sources from the usual textbooks. The final sermon controversy is a case in point; at least one academic source has written about how the final sermon has been distorted by another scholar.

I don't currently know enough to write about the issue, unfortunately, but I hope it gets included at some point. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The issue isn't that I disagree with this part of the story, but when I do a search for Luther in say the International Journal of Systematic Theology, or the Heythorp Journal, I see a large number of Luther research. Do you feel our "Recent trends in research" section adequately covers what is being published on Luther? I will try to add something about the Finns, but I look at those articles and I hardly understand a single word, so I hope somebody will check the accuracy. --Merzul 18:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Influence

Martin Luther is credited with great influence during his life with regard to religious beliefs and power structures. Is he credited with influencing and changing people's behaviors or beliefs during his life with regard to jews; as opposed to being credited with expressing opinions that reflected the opinions of his time and were later used as an excuse by Nazis to do what they were already going to do? Or does my question presuppose something counterfactual? WAS 4.250 15:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

That's a good point. His impact on subsequent antisemitism is a matter of record, but his impact on the persecution of Jews in his day needs to be addressed.--Mantanmoreland 16:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

There are examples in the section of his influence during his lifetime. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:52, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed: "Luther successfully campaigned against the Jews in Saxony, Brandenburg, and Silesia. Michael writes that the city of Strasbourg was asked by Josel of Rosheim to forbid the sale of Luther's anti-Jewish works; they refused initially, but relented when a Lutheran pastor in Hochfelden argued in a sermon that his parishioners should murder Jews. Luther's influence persisted after his death. Throughout the 1580s, riots saw the expulsion of Jews from several German Lutheran states.[59]"--Mantanmoreland 19:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Material

And the Witnesses Were Silent: The Confessing Church and the Persecution of the Jews by Victoria J. Barnett, Wolfgang Gerlach; University of Nebraska Press, 2000. pp.113-4, ISBN 0-803-22165-7

A third statement, a September 1937 essay by Gerhard Schmidt, illustrates that Confessing Christians who fought to retain the Old Testament did not necessarily hold pro-Jewish attitudes, even theologically. Referring to Luther, Schmidt characterized "the fusion of the Jewish question with the things of the Old Testament" as a "false path": "Exactly at the point where Martin Luther criticizes the insolence and impertinence of contemporary Jews, he commits himself with all his power on behalf of the Old Testament and its character as revelation. . . . He does not reject the Old Testament because of the Jews, but rather the other way around: Because of the Old Testament, he rejects the Jews."

With this text from Luther, Schmidt, a Confessing pastor and contributor to Junge Kirche, sacrificed the Jews in order to save the Old Testament. The Nazi state, he wrote, intended to destroy the Jews in order to liquidate the Old Testament as well. That same year, "the city of Nuremberg presented a copy of the rare edition of Luther's text 'On the Jews and Their Lies,' published in the year 1543 with a frontispiece by Lucas Cranach, to the Gauleiter Julius Streicher in honor of his birthday." 57 The Confessing Church had protested too quietly or not at all and had failed to interfere with state treatment of the Jews. Ironically, the 4 April 1937 issue of Nationalkirche (National church), edited by Thuringian German Christian leaders Leffler and Leutheuser, compared the Confessing Church to Der Stürmer: "They are united in their radical rejection. The one [ Der Stürmer] for anti-Jewish reasons, the other [the Confessing Church] for anti-Christian reasons. Common to both is the anti-Christian attitude, the hostility toward Christ, [who is] the anti-Jew and Liberator of the human soul to God."

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:21, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The Psychopathic God: Adolf Hitler, Robert G. L. Waite; Da Capo Press, 1993, ISBN 0-306-80514-6

pp.117-8

A little known pamphlet apparently written jointly by Hitler and Eckart and published in 1924 is an important source for Hitler's political ideas during these years. Despite its ambitious title, Bolshevism from Moses to Lenin: Dialogue Between Adolf Hitler and Me, there is virtually nothing in the pamphlet about Bolshevism. [...] In the pamphlet, Hitler and Eckart were ambivalent about Martin Luther. They praised him for his anti-Semitism and approved of the synagogue burning he recommended, but they found that in splitting the Christian church Luther increased the power of the Jews. Hitler and Eckart also expressed disappointment with Luther's draconian "solution to the Jewish Problem" (see Chapter 4), which they found much too moderate. The pamphlet calls for "rooting out" the Jews.

pp.248 - A Legacy of Luther

"Side by side with Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner." -- Adolf Hitler

pp. 249-250

Centuries before Hitler, Luther was convinced that the Jews were pernicious parasites who exploited and enslaved honest Germans. While Germans toiled by the sweat of their brow, Jews "stuff themselves, guzzle and sit around the stove . . . fart and roast pears [a proverbial expression for laziness] . . . they fleece us of our money and goods." He had specific ideas for dealing with "this depraved and damned people of the Jews." Luther's program, which Hitler would carry out in every detail, was set forth in 1543:

"First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools. . . . Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. . . . Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such adultery, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. . . . Fourth, I advise that their Rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. . . . Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. . . . Sixth, I advise that . . . all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them. . . . Seventh, . . . Let whosoever can, throw brimstone and pitch upon them, so much the better . . . and if this be not enough, let them be driven like mad dogs out of the land. . . .

It is one of those jarring accidents of chronology that Hitler launched his first pogrom against the Jews, known as Kristallnacht, setting fire to their synagogues and schools, on the night of 9-10 November 1938--on Luther's birthday.

pp.251

Martin Luther was a Christian theologian who made imperishable contributions to the religious life and thought of the Western world-contributions far greater than can be acknowledged here. But there is another legacy pointed to by a thoughtful German, who, writing after Hitler's Holocaust, concluded that "without any question, Lutheranism influenced the political, spiritual and social history of Germany in a way that, after careful consideration of everything, can be described only as fateful. (nb: Waite refers here to Wilhelm Röpke, The Solution to the German Problem, (1946), pp117).

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Wilhelm Röpke quote is pertinent. The fact that he is not a religious scholar, is not relevant. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

This is all very interesting material... for an article on Nazism! The problem with emphasizing this material is mainly one of historical context... Luther was a product of the 16th century. There were already pogroms in Europe before his time... it's not like anti-Semitism originates with Luther, or that the Nazis particularly needed Luther to justify their aims. Hitler probably just expertly capitalized on the fact he was a anti-Semitic German like he did with Wagner and the rest.

For this article, I would really focus on emphasizing Luther within his own time period and on the more or less immediate aftermath of that. Anti-Semitism, bigamy, comments against Catholics and witches: all ok to mention within his own historical context... to go beyond that, however, and basically interpret Luther through the events of the Holocaust, makes the article read like a polemic, which would seem to fall within WP:NPOV#Undue weight (in terms of contextual displacement) and really wouldn't seem to be in the best interest of Wikipedia as a whole.—ACADEMY LEADER ^FOCUS! 06:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Was thinking, also, couldn't this be considered undue weight by emphasizing the POV of Nazis? Not that these are Nazi sources, but content discussing the "Nazi POV" of Luther would definitely seem to qualify as a minority viewpoint, I would hope.—ACADEMY LEADER ^FOCUS! 19:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

That's why we use secondary sources. It's the position of the academic sources that we're citing, not the position of the Nazis. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

About research into Luther from 1900 onwards (from the German WP)

I wonder if anything in here would be of use to us? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:36, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Luthers Theologie wird erst seit Beginn des 19. Jahrhunderts, systematisch erst seit etwa 1900 erforscht. Dabei war ihre Deutung stets eng mit der aktuellen Geschichte des Protestantismus verbunden. Wichtige Vertreter der Lutherforschung und -deutung waren Theodosius Harnack (konfessionelle preußisch-konservative Restauration), Albrecht Ritschl und Wilhelm Herrmann (neukantianischer Individualismus), Karl Holl und Erich Seeberg (Lutherrenaissance), Friedrich Gogarten, Karl Barth (Dialektische Theologie), Rudolf Bultmann, Gerhard Ebeling (existentiale Interpretation), Ernst Wolf, Hans Joachim Iwand (sozialkritisches Luthertum nach 1945).

Wegmarken der Lutherforschung waren die kritische Weimarer Gesamtausgabe, begonnen 1883, eine Fülle zwischen 1900 und 1920 neu aufgefundener Handschriften vor allem des frühen Luther (z.B. Vorlesungen 1509-1518), aber auch des späten Luther (Predigtnachschriften, Disputationsprotokolle 1522-1546), die Gründung der Luthergesellschaft 1917 und nach 1945 zunehmend interkonfessionelle und internationale Lutherkongresse (1956 Aarhus, 1960 Münster/Westfalen u.a.) sowie eine Fülle von Studien zu bestimmten Lebensabschnitten oder Einzelfragen.

Lange Zeit hatte bei den Protestanten die Erforschung der reformatorischen Wende das Übergewicht; dank der neueren Textfunde und interkonfessioneller Forschungsprojekte wurde allmählich das differenzierte und komplexe Verhältnis Luthers zur katholischen Tradition aufgehellt.

Luthers Jugendeinflüsse und Frühschriften hat zuerst der Kirchenhistoriker Otto Scheel erforscht und festgestellt, dass Luther vor seinem Theologiestudium mit keinen häretischen, humanistischen und kirchenkritischen Strömungen seiner Zeit in Berührung kam (Die Entwicklung Luthers bis zum Abschluß der Vorlesung über den Römerbrief, Leipzig 1910; Dokumente zu Luthers Entwicklung (bis 1519), Tübingen 1911).

Der schwedische Psychoanalytiker Erik H. Erikson unternahm 1958 den - in der Fachdiskussion heute weithin als überholt angesehenen - Versuch, Luthers Theologie aus frühkindlichen Deformationen seiner Sexualität und angestauten Schuld- und Hassgefühlen gegenüber seinem Vater zu erklären (Der junge Mann Luther. Eine psychoanalytische und historische Studie).

95 Theses image

There's a great image here of Luther nailing the 95 Theses to the door of the church, thereby triggering the Reformation (insofar as any one act can be said to have triggered it). It'd be good to use this but I can't see where it's from. Does anyone know offhand? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:40, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I searched and searched and could not find the name of the painting, or its location. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

Seems that the image is from a book cover and not from an oil painting, but I am not 100% sure. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I've been searching too; nothing so far, though I see lots of people using it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Problematic sentence

The following is problematic, as it endorsed a certain POV:

"and that the church is a community of believers, rather than a hierarchical structure of clergy against laity"

The church as the community of believer was no new idea and certainly not developed by Luther. In fact it was and is part of Catholic ecclesiology. Also it is not in contrast to a hierarchical structure which furthermore does not pit clergy against laity. This all smacks of Protestant POV. Not surprising maybe but still violating NPOV.

I don't even think that the above description fits Luther's ecclesiology unless it is preceded by a merely: the church being merely the community of believers, but even that doesn't to him justice, given the new idea of an invisible church.

I am not sure what was actually meant in this context but if we need a Lutheran innovation, try for "the priesthood of all believers" as opposed "ordained priesthood", which he indeed abolished.

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 22:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Str, I changed that sentence to: "[The key tenets of his theology were] that the Bible, not the church, is the sole source of religious authority; that grace by means of faith in Jesus as the messiah, a faith unmediated by the church, is the only salvation; and that the church is a priesthood of believers, not a hierarchy of priests and congregants ..." It's sourced to the Hillerbrand article in the Encyclopaedia Britannica. Does that edit alleviate your concerns? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:13, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

That's better but still not quite accurate. Luther distinguished between the visible and the invisible church, the former being merely a human group of believers getting together, and the latter being invisible. A better solution would be to say "that all believers share in a common priesthood without needing a hierarchy ..." or something like that.

There is also a wrong implication at the top: "that the Bible, not the church, is the sole source of religious authority" implies that someone else holds the view that the church is the sole sources of religious authority. But no one does. Luther is the man throwing around "sola" all the time. It should be "that the Bible, apart from the church, is the sole source ..."

Also, the line about "grace by means of face" lacks Luther's insistence that it is "grace alone" by "faith alone" - since the latter is another of the main points of contention it is important to be precise.

Two more things:

1) Making the Bible "accesible to ordinary people" is POV IMHO. He made easier to read it by a joint effort of printing and translation, though he started neither of those. His translation was not the first translation. It also assumes that apart from a vernacular translation the Bible is inaccessible. At best made it more accessible and so it should say "more accessible" (Not delving into the issue of whether this purports the Lutheran dogma of perspicuity of scripture or the possibility that spreading his interpretation might be a wall of a different kind).

2) Why did you change the line about Luther's writings on the Jews being controversial. [20] As much as we discuss it here, Luther is not primarily known for these writings. (And I hope I am beyond the suspicion of being a "Luther apologists".

Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 17:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I tweaked it a bit more. Now it's "The key tenets of Luther's theology — that the Bible is the sole source of religious authority; that grace alone, attainable only by faith in Jesus as the messiah, a faith unmediated by the church, is the only salvation; and that the church is a priesthood of all believers — helped to inspire the Protestant Reformation and change the course of Western civilization."

The controversial thing — it was repeated at the end of the 3rd para and then the start of the next, which seemed untidy. Also, he is known for those writings, perhaps not among people who focus on the theology, but by historians. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I would put it this way:

"The key tenets of Luther's theology — that the Bible is the sole source of religious authority; that grace alone, attainable only by faith in Jesus as the messiah, a faith unmediated by the church, is the only salvation; and all Christians share the priesthood of all believers — helped to inspire the Protestant Reformation and change the course of Western civilization."

IMHO the "also known" overdoes the Jewish issue. It is not what he's primarily known for, not even among historians. But I will let this rest.

What about the "more accessible" bit? Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 19:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Issue resolved (or rested). Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 08:39, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Additions

Please don't lengthen that section any further. It's long enough, and it's fairly balanced at the moment, reflecting what reliable sources say. An economist is not a reliable source regarding Luther's influence in 1930s Germany. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying that Wilhelm Röpke is not a reliable source for the subject of Luther's influence on Nazism? I would argue strongly that he is. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

That sentence, as well as Hitler's view of Luther, closes that section very appropriately. I do not want to edit war about it, so I would appreciate if others can comment. This is the diff ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Why would an economist be a reliable source for that? Also, he's not saying anything the other sources don't say — that Luther was influential, but we know that. As for quoting Hitler, that's the sort of primary-source use we need to stay away from. I edited the section so it was 500 words shorter and relied on secondary scholarly sources (other than Luther himself) who have actually studied this, rather than people just commenting; I think it's best left that way, so we can focus on the rest of the article for a change. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying. Röpke was there at the time, and made that comment at the end of the war. As for Hitler's statement, it simply nails the previous paragraphs in which other opinions of the influence are described. Adding Hitler's own words, moves these opinions from being such, into the realm of fact. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:47, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

jossi, the material is good in one sense, and congratulations for finding it, but I think the point about it being from an economist (rather than a historian) is important, and it does tend to overbalance the section, which was already quite lengthy given the rest of the article, and the complaints that there was too much focus on Luther's writings about Jews. Perhaps it would fit better in the On the Jews and their Lies article. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Slim and Jayjg. He, as reported by another source, only described Luther's position as very important in many regards (not just the Jewish issue) and classifies that influence as "fateful". That's not really any new information. If you want to use it as a reference for what we have, go ahead. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 10:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Also I wonder about the context of the Röpke quote. What was he talking about? Really about the Shoa or primarily about the Shoa? I don't think so. Given the time as "after the Holocaust" implies this but might as well be POV pushing. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 10:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I hear you. I will move the material to a more suitable article. Thanks for the feedback. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

But take care that you only let it say what it says. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 15:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps an entry on Luther's view of the Temporal authority and To What Extent it Should Be Obeyed. "The temporal government has laws which extend no further than to life and property and external affairs on earth, for God cannot and will not permit anyone but himself to rule over the soul. Therefore, where the temporal authority presumes to prescribe laws for the soul, it encroaches upon God's government and only misleads souls and destroys them. We want to make this so clear that everyone will grasp it, and that our fine gentlemen, the princes and bishops, will see what fools they are when they seek to coerce the people with their laws and commandments into believing this or that."

taken from http://www.augustana.edu/Religion/LutherProject/TemporalAuthority/Temporalauthority.HTM

Luther on witchcraft

Found a few very interesting treatises on witchcraft, in which Luther is mentioned quite substantially. Will it be worth my time to develop a bigger section on this subject, than the one we have now? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

It would be preferable to have a decent section on Luther and Islam instead. The Ottoman Empire posed a grave military threat until 1529 and continued to be a force to be reckoned with until 1683. Luther's words and influence on this major political issue on his time would be eminently relevant. Luther's views on witchcraft on the other hand were no different from the common superstitions of his time; what he wrote on the subject was odd remarks here and there, and to the best of my knowledge he never participated in a witch trial or instigated a witch persecution. Dr Zak 03:02, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I'll see what I can find on Luther and Islam. If I do find anything interesting I will post here in talk. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Unclear sentence

I can kind of work out what this means, but I'm not confident about editing it to be clearer. Can someone say more about its meaning? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 17:41, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Luther came to understand justification as entirely the work of God. Against the teaching of his day that the righteous acts of believers are performed in cooperation with God, Luther wrote that Christians receive that righteousness entirely from outside themselves; that righteousness not only comes from Christ, it actually is the righteousness of Christ, imputed to us (rather than infused into us) through faith.

Slim, the two views are basically:

1. God gives grace to man (who receives it by faith in Christ) enabling to do righteous works. God and man cooperate in these works. Man is justified (=made just) by faith and these works, which he wouldn't have been able to do on his own. This view also considers justification as an ongoing process unto perfection.
2. God overlooks man's sins by imputing to him the perfect righteousness of Christ based on man's faith in the salvatory effect of Christ's death on the cross (an effect on the individual himself, not jsut a general effect). Man is justified (=declared just) by faith alone. This view also distinguishes between justification at the beginning, followed by sanctification, which is an ongoing process unto perfection.

The first is the Catholic view, the second the Lutheran/Protestant view.

Terms like "of his day" should be avoided. The paragraph draws an accurate picture. However, the thing Luther opposed here was not just the teaching of his day but had been so for centuries, if you ask me from the beginning. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 17:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, that is very helpful. I think I see, but perhaps not quite. In the above, the Catholic view is that man is made just according to his good acts, not according to his beliefs, and not by grace alone: becoming just is a lifelong process. The Lutheran view is that belief is more important than good acts. If you have faith in Jesus, you are made just by that belief alone, which is sufficient to trigger God's grace, and that is enough.

That is, becoming just is not a process for Lutherans. In the Catholic view, grace is only part of what is needed for salvation; in the Lutheran view, it is the only thing that's needed. Have I got that right? :-( SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:07, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Almost, Slim: faith and grace do play important roles in the Catholic view: all of salvation happens by and through God's grace. And man must accept that grace in faith. The difference on the terminological level is the rejection of the Lutheran "faith alone", on a deeper level it is the definition of justification - infused vs. imputed. The Lutheran view is that a faith in "Jesus died for MY sins" (not just in general) results in you being declared just (even though you are actually just as sinful as before) - this difference is a philosophical: Aristotelian realism (righteousness really exists in itself) vs. Nominalism (anything that God calls its righteous is thereby righteous). ::For a Protestant works are merely fruits of the justification that occured previously by faith alone, whereas for a Catholic, since justification is not restricted to the first instance but encompasses sanctification, works are part and parcel of it together with faith. Of course, in initial justification a Catholic would not see works involved either. Str1977 ^{(smile back)} 19:27, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

"The only thing that's needed" mischaracterizes Luthers position. Luther argues that human deeds are insufficient to earn oneself good standing with God. The article on the Christian doctrine of Original sin has the background for that position of his. Dr Zak 19:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Yeah, that is pretty close. The question that marks the divide is whether or not there is any human element of cooperation in salvation/justification - for which the Lutheran answer is an emphatic no. There is a process when talking about righteousness for Lutherans, but it deals with post-justification and does not contribute to salvation/justification (see Luther's Two Kinds of Righteousness for a delineation between salvific righteousness that is entirely extra nos, and the righteousness which comes after salvation - with which there is cooperation; see the note above about recent research for secondary sources along these lines). Hope that helps, and doesn't just muddy the water. Pastordavid 19:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, that's helpful. I'm getting there ... :-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

"Triggering God's grace" is at least an unfortunate way of putting it and could well be a misunderstanding. Luther argues that God extends his grace to mankind despite everyone being a miserable sinner. Dr Zak 19:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

(<---)I don't know if this helps, but in protestant sunday school we were taught that accepting christ as our lord and savior allowed the holy ghost to enter us and would result in good works and other gifts of the holy ghost ("gifts of the holy ghost" = faith, love, moving mountains, speaking in tongues, etc) as the fruit ("fruits of the spirit") that would provide evidence that the holy ghost was indeed in us. WAS 4.250 21:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Image of Luther

Does anyone know anything about this picture of Luther apart from the little scrap of info given in the caption? I've been digging around online but so far northing's turned up. I found it attached the binding (but separate from the pages themselves) of an old (1922) book. I had to carefully cut it from the binding so it would lie flat (actually size is about 2 1/4 x 3 3/4 in.) while I made a low res. scan of it . The book itself belonged to either my mother or my grandmother - I'm not sure which - both of whom were converts to Catholicism from Methodism (c. 1939) and are now deceased. This is unfortunate since my grandmother in particular was very knowledgeable about art (but heck, she made it to 93; I'm 51 and already starting to creak!!!). :) But I digress. If anyone can offer some clues about this (apparently rare) picture I'd be very appreciative. Thanks. Delta x 20:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I've taken a look around, Delta, but I wasn't able to find anything, sorry. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Indulgences

The indulgence controversy section seems to favor the Lutheran POV, as it defines the indulgence as "merits" and then says these can be bought and sold. The Catholic POV is that Tetzel was not authorized to "sell" indulgences per se, but was preaching about one indulgence which required (among other conditions) almsgiving. People were aware this could be abused, and this is not to say Tetzel is blameless, as he appears to have under-emphased the necessity of being contrite, but he wasn't selling "merits". If Tetzel was trafficking in the paper documentation (like the Pardoner in Canterbury Tales) this needs to be cited, and the distinction between "merits" and a paper certificate clarified. Gimmetrow 01:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The sources say he was selling them. Do you have a source for what you're saying? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:23, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Being "in effect a salesman" is not the same as directly selling merits. There is a distinction between the "merits" and whatever paper certificates may have been bought and sold by various people, and the current text does not make this clear, and the result is to effectively deny the Catholic POV in an article about someone who attacked the RCC. That doesn't strike me as particularly neutral. Gimmetrow 01:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

In RC theology the "merits" (if you wish to use that term) cannot be bought or sold (see Catholic Encyclopedia article on indulgences, for instance), and any indulgence requires "contrition", so cannot be given simply and only by a transfer of money. Some sort of good deed may be required which (in those days) could include alms, abuses of which were a common complaint throughout the middle ages well before Luther. The RC theology as described needs more clarity, as it is misrepresented, and I would think that Catholic sources would be better equipped to explain Catholic theology. I'll leave you to fix the text. Gimmetrow 01:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

We can't go along with the RC POV as though it were fact (and are you sure the RC position was then that indulgences could not be sold, because clearly they were being sold). The distinction between the merit and the piece of paper it is written on seems spurious. The bottom line is that money was changing hands in exchange for offers of forgiveness and heaven; and the EB calls it selling, and the person doing it "in effect a salesman." It was that process — the involvement of money — that was found to be objectionable, and which sparked the Reformation. The peasants whose money was being handed over almost certainly didn't understand the fine distinctions the church was (or is now) making. You seem to want us to imply that the whole thing was a giant misunderstanding. :-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Er, no. This sort of thing existed throughout the middle ages, and it brought the Church a lot of complaints. That's why it was forbidden by the princes in some regions - unless they were getting a cut... Please read the relevant articles on Tetzel and Indulgences in the wikisource Catholic Encyclopedia (it's dated, but it's also online). Those "in the know" would have been offended by the notion that it involved selling forgiveness, despite the appearances of how it worked. Gimmetrow 02:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Gimmetrow, you clearly know more about it than me, so if you can find a way to word it to preserve both POVs, by all means give it a go. I won't revert you again, and I'm sorry I did earlier. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:44, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Luther's 1520 treatise dedicated to Leo X - sent in April not October

There seems to be an error in this paragraph regarding the date on which Luther sent his treatise to Leo.

That fall, Johann Eck proclaimed the bull in Meissen and other towns. Karl von Miltitz, a papal nuncio, attempted to broker a solution, but Luther, who had sent the pope a copy of On the Freedom of a Christian in October, publicly set fire to the the bull and decretals at Wittenberg on December 10, 1520,[35] an act he defended in Why the Pope and his Recent Book are Burned and Assertions Concerning All Articles. [21]

I'll leave it to the regular editors here to make a judgment after examining the following information, which I inadvertently discovered in the works of William Roscoe while searching Google books for this comment of Luther:

“I shall admit of no restraints in interpreting the word of God; for the word of God, which inculcates the liberty of all, must itself be free”

According to Roscoe, Luther sent his treatise on the Freedom of a Christian to Leo not in October of 1520 as indicated in the article, but rather, several months earlier, on April 6th of that same year.

Roscoe insists that this is indeed the correct date and gives as his reasons the following (which I've excerpted from vol. 2, p.470, note 5 of the above work):

• I. The letter in question was prefixed, as the actual dedication to Leo X of the book of Luther, de Libertate Christiana. In this form it appears in the Jena edition of the works of Luther, where it immediately precedes the treatise, and is entitled:

Epistola Lutheri ad Leonem X Rom. Pontificem, Libello de Libertate Christiana Preafixa

The dedicatory words at the close of the letter admit of no doubt that it was published with the book:

"Finally, that I may not present myself empty handed, I bring with me this little treatise, sent forth under your name, as an auspice of peace and hope, etc."

• II.The precise time of the publication of this treatise is marked by the dedicatory letter itself; viz., the 6th April 1520. It preceded, in the order of publication, the treatise, de Captivltate Babylonica; and the latter treatise had made its appearance in the month of August 1520. Sleidan, ii. Seckend. i. Ixxiii.

• III. The Jena edition of the works of Luther was superintended by his particular friends soon after his death, and the greatest care was taken in arranging his writings, in order of time, according to their proper dates. This is repeatedly insisted on, in the preface by Amsdorf, as one of the chief merits of the work:

"For many, not keeping in view the order of time, grossly blunder, when under colour of Luther’s writings they seek to reconcile Christ and Belial."

In this edition the letter appears in its proper place, with the date of the 6th April, and before the bull of Leo X., which is dated the 15th of June.

• IV. Any correspondence between Luther and Leo X. after the issuing the bull must have been well known, and given rise to great observation, as it would have shown the conduct of Luther in a very different light from that in which it now appears, and led to very different conclusions respecting his character.

To have omitted or misplaced it in the Jena edition of the works of Luther, which professes to give a history of the Reformation for the years 1517, 18, 19, 20, and 21, by a regular series of authentic documents, would have been unpardonable. Even Seckendorf himself has not ventured to introduce, or even to mention such letter in his commentaries, at the time when he contends it was written; and only undertakes, in a former part of his work, to raise some doubt on the subject;

"dubitationem quandam infra aperiam"

a doubt which a proper examination would effectually have removed. – from The life and pontificate of Leo the Tenth, vol. 2, (1846), P. 470, NOTES TO CHAPTER XIX, note. 5 (p. 216) - the Internet Archive

With a little digging I was able to discover that, according to the writer of this article on The Case of the Lost Luther Reference, the “Latin Jena edition (published in 1583) [can be found] in the rare book room of Theological Seminary Library, Fort Wayne.”

I checked their catalog and sure enough, there it was, listed as:

“aller Bücher und Schrifften des thewren seligen Mans Doct. Mart. Lutheri,”

which varies only slightly from this version,

Alle Bücher und Schriften des Theuren Seligen Mannes Gottes Dr. M. Luther

With this information it should now be a relatively easy matter to verify Roscoe's information by contacting Concordia and having someone there check the Jena edition. Delta x 01:46, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Luther and Islam

As suggested by Dr Zak, I have been looking for some material for a section on Luther and Islam. This is what I have found so far:

• Mullett, Michael A., Martin Luther, pp.253, Routledge (2004)

Luther's hatred of Duke Henry was both intense and endemic. In 1541, when he had Henry in his sights in the satire, 'Against Hans Worst', he included him, along with the archbishop of Mainz (rhyming 'Heinz/ Mainz'), as on a par with Islam and the Turks in an unholy alliance with the papacy-'all the devils, the Turks, Muhammad, the pope, “Mainz”, “Heinz”, and all evil-doers'. This bracketing of two Catholic rulers with Islam seems extraordinary, in the light of what Luther was to write in the following year in 'Comfort for Women Who Have Had Miscarriages': 'One should not despise a Christian person as if he were a Turk…. He is precious in God's sight…'. Luther's unrelenting harshness towards and contempt for Duke Henry, in particular as the epitome of Catholic counter-aggression against the Reformation, suggests that Luther did not in fact consider him and his ilk to be 'Christian persons' at all.

• Tolan, John V. Saracens: Islam in the Medieval European Imagination, pp.275 Columbia University Press (2002). Referring to Luther's letter dated 27 October 1542, published in Karl Hagenbach, Luther und der Koran vor dem Rate zu Basel, Beiträge zur vaterländischen Geschichte 9 (1870): 291—326

IN 1542, as the armies of Sulayman the Magnificent prepared to invade Hungary, a Swiss publisher named Johann Herbst found himself in jail in Basel. The crime he had committed, along with his accomplice Theodor Buchman, was to publish the Koran in Robert of Ketton's Latin translation of the 1140s, along with Riccoldo da Montecroce's Contra legem Sarracenorum and other medieval polemical works against Islam. The Basel municipal council judged that it was dangerous to publish the “fables and heresies” of the Koran. Help came to the embattled humanists in the form of a letter to the council from none other than Martin Luther himself, who declared his support for the project, saying that there was no better way to injure Muhammad and the Turks than to publish their “lies and fables” for all to see. Earlier the same year Luther himself had completed his German translation of Riccoldo's Contra legem Sarracenorum. When Martin Luther and his contemporaries sought to comprehend Islam and to engage in polemics against it, they turned naturally to translations and texts produced between the twelfth and the early fourteenth centuries.

This text my also contain some useful information, but I have yet to locate a copy: Heinrich von Treitschke, Luther and the German Nation in Germany, France, Russia, and Islam (1915). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Google Books has the full text on-line. [22] Be careful with what theses of his end up ino this article, though, he is known for seeing the world through nationalist spectacles. Dr Zak 17:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I would prefer to provide the sources and allow others with better copyediting skills and better sense for the article as a whole, to add any suitable material to this or other articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:59, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Luther's views on Islam are expressed in the following works:

• On War Against the Turk (1529)
• Heerpredigt wider den Türken (Sermon Against the Turks, 1529)
• Vorwort zu dem Libellus de ritu et moribus Turcorum (Preface to Tract on the Religion and Customs of the Turks, 1530)
• Appeal for Prayer Against the Turks (1541)
• Vorrede zu Theodor Biblianders Koranausgabe (Preface to Theodor Bibliander’s Edition of the Qur’an, 1543)

A good academic overview of Luther's views on Islam can be found in "Martin Luther — Translations of Two Prefaces on Islam" by Sarah Henrich and James L. Boyce. A more pedestrian overview can be found at LutheransOnline.com. Kaldari 18:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone has added a section consisting of two quotes; it has to either be expanded with some analysis from secondary sources or removed. As written, it's unclear e.g. "... the Muslim seeks to ... murder the temporal, disregard for marriage the estate of matrimony" (is there a word missing perhaps?) And the interpretation of the second quote — "His advice in dealing with Islam was that the body of Christ should fight against Islam with Words and that the Emperor should defend his people and land" — doesn't seem to be backed up by the quote itself. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 16:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I've removed this as currently written because the source is a website containing gems such as: "Just as in the days of Noah, so also in Luther's life, people lived as Epicureans and skeptics. As a consequence of their thankless hearts, God was just in punishing Europe. The Muslims were simply God's scourge and schoolmaster, permitted by God to be the servant of the devil, who not only ruins land and people with the sword but also lays waste the Christian faith and our dear Lord Jesus Christ." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Article is Much Better

Congratulations! This article is much better than it was before. It actually is a biography now, rather than a sugar-coated whitewash. I predict that this article will gain the "Good Article" status. SgtSchultz 14:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. :-) SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:37, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

It is loking good from a brief glance but I am not enough of a Luther expert to judge the content. The "anti-semitism" section does seem still too long in comparison to the rest of the material - considering that there is a main article for this. I'm not advocating change however as I know there would be vociferous objections. However the "Timeline of Luther's life" image is too small to see - if there is any value in this being in the article it should at least be big enough to read - should it be deleted or moved and made larger? Sophia 08:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the timeline is too difficult to read. I could barely make out the words.--Mantanmoreland 16:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Internet Medieval Sourcebook

[23] I just switched to the cache version because, according to this page,[24], they had some issue with Sherman the translator. I am wondering if the cached version should also be removed because of this issue. In that case we'll either have to find that information somewhere else or remove the statement. Since it is a quote of the medieval sourcebook (I think) we'll probably just have to remove it or add {{Fact}} for an indefinite period. Any ideas? The Behnam 17:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I tend to think that it has to be removed. It was written by the then-author of the Medieval sourcebook, and the entire page has been taken down because of copyright concerns. I don't believe one can link to its Google cache. --Mantanmoreland 18:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removed that paragraph; hopefully something like it will come out soon. The Behnam 23:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

We could cite the author and the Sourcebook without linking to that page. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:01, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Really? If possible we should do so. I'm just not sure about the nature of the dispute and the introductory text that is being cited. Did the translator put that in? Does the "Internet Medieval Sourcebook" exist outside of the internet such that it can be cited even though it is no longer posted on the internet? The Behnam 00:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Why would the Medieval Sourcebook suddenly take down a page that’s been online for nearly ten years with apparently no complaints? Seems a bit odd. Especially since the Sourcebook is supposed to be “a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts related to medieval and Byzantine history.”

Maybe it's just the result of wanting to keep certain of Luther's writings “hidden with embarrassment.”

Nevertheless, I think it would be a much better and a much healthier thing, if these writings of Luther, which have been so long hidden or ignored, were now allowed to be freely examined and openly discussed. Anyone agree? Delta x 23:22, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as the publisher's motives, it should be noted that they do not allow any of their publications to appear in full on the internet. It is an economic decision that we've been trying to convince them to change for over a decade, with no luck.

It is fair use under US copyright law to quote the work, especially since we are not talking about very much of the work at all. What we would want to do is properly acknowledge the publisher. I'd recommend that approach at the present time.

The long term solution is to find someone willing to translate the thing and put it under a GNU license. The work can then go into Wikisource. For anyone willing to undertake this thankless task, the German text is available in electronic form. --CTSWyneken 23:44, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

In all fairness, I can’t really speak to the publisher’s motives. And didn’t mean to imply that I could with the “hidden with embarrassment” quote. It was just a sort of off-the-cuff remark. Sorry.

And now if I may, please allow me to include here the larger context of the quote, with my emphasis added:

“A SPECIAL EFFORT has been made TO INCLUDE PIECES THAT HAVE PLAYED A ROLE IN LATER POLEMICAL LITERATURE, pieces that have often been cited with triumph by unsympathetic writers or that have often been hidden with embarrassment by friendly writers. There are examples which show to what an extent Luther shared superstitions of his time and was guilty of ‘coarseness’ in speech. It must be admitted that instances of this last kind presented PARTICULAR PROBLEMS IN TRANSLATION, for it has not always been easy to find English equivalents that have precisely the same connotation to modern readers as the German or Latin expressions had to auditors or readers in the sixteenth century. The same is true with respect to the powerful invective which Luther directed against his opponents.” -- Theodore G. Tappert, editor of Luther’s Table Talk, vol. 54, (introduction, p, xxiv).

There is a clearly here a desire on the part of the editors of Luther’s works, to have more of his polemical writings examined. And what is more, it looks like the publishers, who have, at least up till now, been reluctant to “allow any of their publications to appear in full on the internet” are starting to ease those restrictions somewhat. I say this because, as I’ve recently discovered, there are now, in addition to “limited preview” volumes of Luther’s works at Google, a handful of complete volumes online at the Internet archive, presumably with the publisher's permission.

From Google books, [25] To be sure, these "limited preview" books can be very helpful for checking references and such, but they are a far cry indeed from the "full view" versions.

And from the Internet archive. [26]

Maybe CTS, your efforts "to convince them to change" are having some effect after all. Peace. Delta x 10:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Note

"and many people remain unaware of some of Luther's anti-Jewish tirades" [27]

Based upon this finding I have adjusted the lead. It may be undue weight to include so much elaboration upon his criticism of Jews as we do right now. As the information does have its own article already, would it be acceptable that the section on antisemitism be condensed a bit? The Behnam 07:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

About this SlimVirgin edit [28]... I'm not clear on what the rationale is for removing a fact from an RS saying that something is not well-known because, according to you, "it is well known." While I imagine you may fall back on some sources making the claim that it is well-known (assuming they exist), this disagreement doesn't suggest the removal of one view as a solution. I'm hoping for a real response here... The Behnam 07:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Your source is one newspaper article. Against that, we have virtually every scholarly book written on the Holocaust describing Luther's antisemitism and the way his works were used in Nazi Germany. Your sentence also made the lead contradict itself; if the views weren't well-known, his legacy wouldn't be controversial because of them. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 07:50, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

My source (as I used it) addressed awareness of his antisemitism, not the Nazi Germany things. The contradiction would have to be worked out by rewriting some things, but that doesn't mean simply removing a view. I'm not sure how to resolve the apparent disagreement between claims of its notability without censorship of certain views. If my source wasn't an RS I'd be fine leaving it out, but on this I don't see any proper grounds for removal. It is possible that I could find even more sources to bolster the fact; somehow I think that is what you are asking by pointing out that I brought only one newspaper article so far. Does not it matter that this one newspaper is an RS? But I'm more concerned with how the lead should be written to incorporate both views. The Behnam 07:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

If you can find an academic source who talks about his antisemitism not being known, we could reconsider, but it would be a bizarre thing for anyone to argue given how often it's discussed. In fact, I think it's probably the only issue that causes Luther to be discussed at all by academics who aren't Lutheran or Reformation scholars. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't interpret "and many people remain unaware of some of Luther's anti-Jewish tirades" as referring to academics alone. Academics certainly may discuss this but they aren't the majority of "many people." The Behnam 08:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Please understand that I do not wish to harm anyone's intent or feelings. However, IMO since WP is an encyclopedia, our aim is to let people know what they don't know. Obviously, many people wouldn't know most the info that is found in articles. I feel that it is not necessary to include a sentence about the lack of knowledge of the same, whether we have an RS or not. The section detailing the Anti-Semitism of Luther is pretty informative enough. If people do not know, they will know upon reading this article. I guess that's our primary aim... aJCfreak yAk 09:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Accepting Jesus?

Just read the Luther article and was surprised to find the following sentence in the first paragraph of the section on anti-semitism: "Luther's theology centered on the idea of salvation through the acceptance of Jesus as the messiah." There are many ideas out there about what was the center of Luther's theology, but I can not think of a single reputable scholar that has argued that the human act of "acceptance" was in anyway part of Luther's core teachings. One has only to read Luther's Bondade of the Will to know better. It may be that this has already been brought to everyone's attention, but I was not able to find a discussion of this on the present "discussion" page. VDMA 00:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)VDMA

Indeed. For Luther it was not that a believer accepted Jesus but that Jesus accepted the believer. Perhaps someone can rewrite this section. --CTSWyneken 13:13, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I have made a change in wording here. I think that it should be pointed out that Luther is not alone in his desire that people believe in Jesus Christ.--Drboisclair 13:23, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a big Wikipedian (yet) but I thought I'd check in on my earlier comment. Nice to see the response and the amendment. The "it should be pointed out" remark inspires me to make further comment. If Luther's Bondage of the Will is to be in anyway indicative of his core theological principles, then it must be insisted that insofar as it is possible for people to accept Jesus as the Messiah, such acceptance can only be passive rather than active. Yes, many of us (along with Luther) desire people to believe in Jesus Christ. But many of us (Luther included, I would argue) understand that it is not "up to" people to believe; rather, it is the Holy Spirit via Word and Sacrament "who works faith, where and when it pleases God" (AC V). So our desire is simply that Christ be preached, knowing that God's Word will not return empty, but instead do what it sets out to do: namely, justify the ungodly. VDMA 17:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is very badly written. No mention of the subjective genitive and objective genitive regarding the faith of Jesus and the faith in Jesus. Quite honestly, I'm too sick of Wikipedia to try to fix it.66.201.169.49

Your sour remarks highlight (nevertheless) an important question: when writing an encyclopedic article, which info should be included and which should be left for the more robust textbooks? For Luther that's always been a tough question in terms of historiography as well as taxonomy. VDMA 17:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. As a confirmed and practicing Lutheran in the LCMS, Lutheran doctrine does not believe that one must "accept Jesus as their savior" because, as VDMA stated, we cannot in our sinful humanness accept or even want to accept God's word. Lutheran doctrine about salvation can be summed up in one word: predestination. 4-2-08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.195.196.19 (talk) 13:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Final years and death

I thought Luther believed the apocalypse was at hand in his later years. If I am not mistaken, why is it not included? I am going to check some other encyclopedias.

Checking the German version, he did start demanding the burning of heretics more often, and wrote a work works on the jews, anabaptists the pope, accusing them both of being servants of the devil. This is of course not out of line with Luther's belief that everyone not saved was a servant of the devil. He, however, goes against earlier writings and advocates even the harshest measures to eliminate these heresies.

Still, I see nothing on the end being near.

Hi! Welcome to the page! Please set up a user account (they're free and anonymous, if you wish to keep it that way) That way we can build a relationship with you.

On your comment: Luther did comment from time to time that he thought the end was near. This did not rise above a personal gut feeling, but he did comment on it a few times. Because it was not a constant theme with him, however, it gets very little mention in the secondary literature, which is what Wikipedia is dedicated to summarizing.

On the subject of the Jews, see above. The article lacks a section on Luther and Islam and much on his later exchanges on the Pope and the Roman Church. --CTSWyneken 12:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Good Article

This article seems to have approached some stability over the last month or so. If no one objects, I would like to nominate it for listing as a Good Article.Pastordavid 19:54, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess you can go ahead. :) aJCfreak yAk 06:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Someone needs to write a section on the views of Luther on Islam at least, if something as minor as his views on witches is in the article. --CTSWyneken 16:14, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

This statement under Eucharist controversy needs to be fact checked: "According to Luther, agreement in the faith was not necessary prior to entering political alliances." I think the word "not" should be stricken. Zwingli and the Swiss denied the Real Presence and thus were never part of the Smalcald League. (70.224.204.168 04:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)).

GA hold

A fine article on a difficult figure. Kudos to the editors who have braved the waters and produced this page. I have a few concerns that I feel can be easily addressed:

• The lead needs to be a better summary of the article per WP:LEAD (please read this policy carefully). Also, I would suggest leading into a discussion of Luther's theology with the basic events of the Protestant reformation, so that the reader knows why his theology is important.
• There are some citations missing. I have tagged a few more. The entire "Peasant's War" section is also unsourced.

Fixed Peasants' War ones.qp10qp 20:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

• Several of the sections seems quite small - a few sentences only. Could these be integrated into larger sections somehow? The sheer number of sections is a little overwhleming at the moment.
• Any time you mention a source by name in the text of the article, it is a helpful to identify that person for the reader. For example, in the first section, let the reader know who Martin Marty is - give the reader a reason to trust his information and his interpretations.
• Currently, there are too many images in the article. I would limit each section to a picture or two. Also, the arrangment of the images leaves something to be desired aesthetically. The MOS suggests avoiding text sandwiched between two images and that images be alternated left and right rather than stacked up as in the "Anti-semitism" section.
• Some very slight POV concerns:

• After banishing the Zwickau prophets, who abused him as a new pope, he now faced a battle not only against the corrupt and distorted practices of the established Church but against fanatics on his own side who threatened the new order by fomenting social unrest and even violence. - Is there a reason you are labeling these reformers fanatics? Careful diction is crucial here.

It was in the source. But I've removed "fanatics". (That's my lot here. Over to the main editors.) qp10qp 20:52, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Using quotation marks would be fine, too. Awadewit | talk 22:22, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

• At the heart of the debate about Luther's influence is whether it is anachronistic to view his work as a precursor of the racial antisemitism of the National Socialists, when he may simply have been expressing opposition to Judaism as a religion. - I don't think that one can say that Luther was "simply" expressing opposition to a religion. There is nothing simple about such a statement. Also, the statement somehow implies Luther was less prejudiced than the Nazis. Is this the case? It seems to me that it was a different kind of prejudice.
• In the "Anti-semitism" section is not clear what the prevailing views of Luther's influence on anti-semitism are. It would help if the editors identified strains of thought rather than list scholars and their views. For example, "one school of thought, represented by the work of ...., believes that Luther's influence on later anti-semitism was negligible because.... while another school of thought, represented by ...., believes that it had profound implications for German society and history."
• The "Anti-semitism" section focuses quite a bit on early twentieth-century connections, but what about German anti-semitism in the centuries preceding that?

• Modern Luther scholarship has presented a more diverse view of Luther. - "more diverse" than what? you must provide the comparison
• It contains graphic "toilet talk" against the Jews. - Surely we can find a more dignified way to say this?

Other suggestions (these do not have to be implemented for the article to pass):

• What do you think about block quotes rather than boxes? The boxes kind of take over right now, in my view, distracting the reader from the text. Boxes should be used judiciously to emphasize one or two quotes and then they are usually placed to the side of the article.
• It is too bad that readers have to click on the timeline to be able to read it. Is there any way to rectify this? It is a very useful timeline.
• The "Recent trends in research" needs to be expanded. A small description of the various threads of Luther scholarship would seem appropriate here with a more condensed discussion of the translation. I would also be curious to know, for example, what the major differences are between theologians' views and secular scholars' views of Luther.
• Any topic linked in the article does not need to be the in "See also" section. There seems to be a trend toward dispensing with "See also" sections, by the way.

If you have any questions about this review, leave me a note on my talk page. If the editors finish revising this article before the hold week is up, just let me know early. Awadewit | talk 18:22, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I am failing this article, since the seven days have passed and not all of the issues I listed have been addressed yet. Awadewit | talk 17:32, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The goat owned in common dies of starvation.qp10qp 22:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the opening summary on Luther's theology should be reworded. For example: "According to Luther, salvation was attainable only by faith in Jesus as the messiah . . ." First, please capitalize Messiah. Second, the sentence should be reworded because it seems to imply that Luther taught an active righteousness by faith, instead of a passive righteousness by grace through faith. Luther taught that salvation is given to man by grace only through faith alone. In other words, faith is merely the instrument through which we receive salvation, and faith itself is the gift of God by grace. To quote Luther:

"But this most excellent righteousness, the righteousness of faith, which God imputes to us through Christ without works, is neither political nor ceremonial nor legal nor work-righteousness but is quite the opposite; it is a merely passive righteousness, while all the others, listed above, are active. For here we work nothing, render nothing to God; we only receive and permit someone else to work in us, namely, God. Therefore it is appropriate to call the righteousness of faith or Christian righteousness 'passive.'"

(Luther's Works, Vol. 26  : Lectures on Galatians, 1535, Chapters 1-4. Saint Louis : Concordia Publishing House, 1999, c1963 (Luther's Works 26), S. 26:vii-5). I don't think I'm nitpicking because the theology of grace alone and faith alone are the heart of Lutheran Christian theology, and the wording should be carefully correct. (70.224.202.217 03:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)).

Problem with the phrase: "priesthood of all believers"

A sentence in the opening paragraph ("Luther's theology challenged the authority of the papacy by emphasizing the Bible as the sole source of religious authority and the church as a priesthood of all believers.") needs to be revised. Luther never spoke of the "general priesthood" (1 Peter 2:4) as one of "all believers." The characterization of the general priesthood in this way came from Philipp Jakob Spener. This needs to be stated as either the "general priesthood," "the royal priesthood," or the "priesthood of all the baptized." This misunderstanding is common also among Lutheran theologians.--Drboisclair 13:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I have made the change and provided the source of Luther's teaching on the general priesthood.--Drboisclair 15:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Astronomy

See the Talk pages of the Galileo and Copernicus articles, where it is noted that Luther

attacked Copernicus in 1539. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.34.71 (talk) 14:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Luther is said to have been an anti-Copernican in the article

entitled "De Revolutionibus Orbium Coelestium".

Disregard for Epistle of James

I have started studying the religions of the Protestants, and am finding them very interesting, and a valuable intellectual exercise. I was impressed by Luther's opposition to justification by works, and especially by his desire to remove the Epistle of James from the Bible, because of its unfortunate support for "justification by works". I think this really reveals the strength of Luther's feelings, that he wanted to remove that part of the Bible -- shouldn't the subsection about his views on justification mention this? The article on Luther's translation does mention it, although very briefly -- and omits the entire history of the conflict he had about how the Bible should be fixed. Hassid —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 02:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Luther didn't remove the book of James. He felt that good works were important to Christians life. They just aren't vital for salvation. According to Luther, faith alone gets you into Heaven, but God still commands you to do good deeds. If you don't, you still go to heaven, but it's a shame that you didn't spread God's glory. I hope that helps. Emperor001 17:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Boy--I have to say that I agree with BOTH of you. While Luther did not remove the James from the Bible, he did refer to James as the 'Epistle of Straw,' because of its emphasis on good works. If I were smarter, I could point you to a source--but that is what I was told from the Lutheran minister of the last church I belonged to. This man was someone I really respected, and that does sound like soemthing Martin Luther would say--so I'm inclined to believe it. Bill Abendroth 63.225.87.165 (talk) 00:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC) March 22, 2008

Burn

I'm confused. Which decree did Luther publically burn? The one threatening him with excomunication or the one that did excomunicate him? Did he burn both? The various books that I read say different things. Emperor001 17:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Modern Catholic Opinion

Just out of curiosity, if you were to ask someone high up in the Catholic Church like the pope or a cardinal, what would they say about Luther. I know popes from the Middle Ages would call him a heretic, but what is the modern Catholic opinion of him? Emperor001 17:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Emperor001, this Talk page is for improving the main article, not vague chat.

I asked this question because maybe we could include a section in the article about what the modern Catholic opinion of him is. Emperor001 17:26, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

His teachings on the Church, the Eucharist, salvation, etc. are still considered heretical. The (Roman Catholic) Church recognises any baptism which uses the trinitarian formula as long as the person being baptised is doing so for the purpose of witnessing to Christ and thereby entering the Church. Consequently, all Protestants are considered to be "saved" in the same way that any Orthodox or Catholic is "saved" prior to first communion. However, because the Protestants adopt non-traditional views of the Eucharist, they disqualify themselves from fuller communion.

This all sounds a bit rigid, but I assure you it is not meant to be. Their exclusion is not merely on the level of doctrine or edict. Rather, because they do not recognise the Mass as partaking of the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross and the Eucharist as the real (one could say actual) blood and body of Christ, they exclude themselves from the sacrifice. After all, a sacrifice is of no effect if the person sacrificing does not recognise it as such. Therefore, Protestants are seen to go far enough to get through the gates of the City of God but not far enough to actually participate as fully as non-Protestant Christians. Alukasz 21:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

This is not true. While the above statement may be Catholic opinion, Lutherans believe that participating in the Sacrament of Communion is really taking in the blood and the body of Christ. You can research this in Luther's Catechism. For that reason, many Lutherans get offended when called Protestant. Not all Catholic churches deny Lutherans or Protestants the Eucharist. Also, I would edit "Rather because they do not recognize..." Who is/are "they"? Are they Protestants? Are they Lutherans? I suggest, as well, that this paragraph be formatted to show that this is the opinion of the Catholic faith and not fact. The way it is worded says to me that this is fact when it is actually opinion. I started out feeling rather offended and I had to step back and realize that, I believe anyway, you intended to discuss the viewpoint of the Catholic church in regards to the Sacrament of Communion, or the Eucharist, and rather not state this as a hard fact. Nicolamae 02:38, 1 December 2007 (UTC)Nicola

This is really unrelated to the article and 6 weeks old. Ignore this manner of stuff and it goes away. -- SECisek 13:50, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed some Discussion Page vandalism. Rumiton 15:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge in "Treasure House of Merit"

I suggest merging Treasure House of Merit into the section, Martin_Luther#Indulgences_controversy_and_the_start_of_the_Reformation. "Treasure House" is two paragraphs long, controversial, marked as having writing & style issues, the subject of a deletion discussion, mostly redundant with this section of "Martin Luther", and currently linked-to by no other article in all of WP. All these together seem a good argument for merging that article and redirecting to to here. Hult041956 18:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, the "linked-to by no other article" claim is false; Indulgence#Temporal punishment and indulgences links to it. The recent AFD discussion is Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Treasure House of Merit. One thing that seems odd about the suggestion of merging here is that while several move/merge suggestions were made in that discussion, none of them were to merge here. It is also primarily a Roman Catholic topic, not a Protestant topic. I think a merge is likely reasonable, but if one is done the correct place to merge it is Indulgence, not Martin Luther. So I would oppose merging Wikipedia's coverage here. If we aren't going to have a separate article (and since Wikipedia is not paper we certainly could have one), the right place to cover it is in Indulgence or a sub-article thereof, just as the Encyclopedia Britannica does. So I oppose a merge to this article. GRBerry 02:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

You are correct on all counts. I had overlooked (or misunderstood) the link from Indulgence. (It's actually a redirected link, but nonetheless... ) And you're right about it being a Catholic concept. Now, on the merits of Treasure House of Merit: I'm still concerned that it's an almost orphaned, near stub of an article. I understand and support "not paper," but there's "not a dictionary" as well. The article is very nearly just a definition that's currently needed only by Indulgence and Martin Luther. How about a merge of "Treasure House" into "Indulgence" and change the link from "Luther"? If I've inadvertantly reprised an old, settled issue, tell me. I'll yield. Hult041956 17:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

No, you aren't reprising an old settled issue. I was the closer of the AFD, and my close notes that "Merge or move can be discussed in the usual fora", meaning that merge/move was not a settled issue as far as I could see from the AFD. The usual fora for a merge is the talk page of the destination, for a move the talk page of the article. If we both agree (and nobody else chimes in) that merging someplace else is better, we should change the merge proposal and discuss on the talk page of the new destination article. The editors there might have thoughts. GRBerry 18:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Got it. So, close the discussion by consensus here, but then discuss a merge at Talk:Indulgence. Will do. Thank you for being patient with me. I appreciate the help. Hult041956 17:41, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

POV first paragraph

This is totally POV:

Martin Luther (November 10, 1483 – February 18, 1546) was a German monk, theologian, alleged anti-semite and church reformer. He is also considered to be the founder of Protestantism.

and should be modified.--Drboisclair 18:53, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The matter is taken up in the final paragraph.--Drboisclair 19:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem has been solved.--Drboisclair 13:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep, what you wrote made it better. Rumiton 14:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The "founder of Protestantism" should be placed in another place in the article. Protestantism is not an organization nor a theology, it's kind of more like a spontaneous uprising taking a diversity of theological directions. And Luther was not at all any father of uprises, not even Jan Hus of the Hussites in Bohemia 100 years earlier. It's like declaring Vazlaw Havel the father of Dissidentism. Said: Rursus ☻ 16:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Luther did not see himself as a founder of Protestantism. The phenomenon of Protestantism had its beginning at the German Diet of Speyer (1529) when some of the German nobility protested the condemnation of themselves and their beliefs by Charles V and his coreligionists. I will make an emendation that may make this more acceptable.--Drboisclair (talk) 00:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Consubstantiation

Luther actually believed that the body of Christ resided within the bread and wine but did nod become them.--69.51.163.154 (talk) 16:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration

I idly stumbled upon the Wikiproject Lutheranism collaboration a moment ago and, seeing as the topic interested me, I decided to have a go at this month's article. I'm just about to see what I can do with it, but can anyone suggest what improvements could be made? Thanks, ΚαροτΜαν 08:11, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

The general idea is to push this article's quality back up to the level of a Good Article. Anything helpful you find in this regard should be added. Thanks for helping! Awolf002 (talk) 15:56, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Article is Not evenly Balanced

Most of the begining of the article is uneven in information given about both sides, all of luther's mistakes or contraversies are painted in a way that makes them seem alot less worse than they were. For instance, nowhere is it mentioned that many poeple believe Luther aproved pologamy and action against the peasant uprisings simply becuse the german princes needed him to, not for theological reasons but so they could control there country and have someone justify there actions, which is exactly what he did. Not a single point is mentioned about how Martin Luther left a book out of his version of the bible that clearly contradicted his teachings.This is a huge contraversy considering that a fundemental Protestants teaching is that the bible alone tells us what is right and wrong. The point is, if someone knew nothing at all about the subject and read this article. They would finish think luther was definitly right. Is that the definition of objectivty?

For all of the contraversal points a reason for each side has to be given and it should be left to the reader himself to decide which is right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.238.29.33 (talk) 03:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

"Martin Luther left a book out his version of the Bible that clearly contradicted his teachings." Which book are you referring to? I've heard that he called the Epistle of James "an epistle of straw" because of that "faith without works is dead" thing, but he did include it in the appendix. Or are you referring to the Old Testament apocrypha? Arch O. La ^{Grigory Deepdelver} 14:35, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

While I would encourage hearing both sides with the goal of having a NPOV article, what the editor above seems to be suggesting that the article be made POV toward a severely negative view of Luther. As user Archola has stated Luther did include the Epistle of James into his translation of the New Testament. His characterization of Luther's works on the peasants of the Peasants' Revolt (1525) betray a desire to make such a section POV. I would encourage the editor to give all sides but to be sure to have support for his material.--Drboisclair (talk) 00:01, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem with the way no-POV is enforced on this article in particular is this: non-POV is being read as "equal time for all POVs". This is not how things are done in the world --- a serious conference on Extraterrestrial Life would not give equal time to those who claim they've been kidnapped by aliens, simply because they have their views concerning ET life. The demands of those who demand equal time for any and every view are the same as the "alien kidnapping" victims --- nonsense and blather. --Rekleov (talk) 17:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

False balance may be of interest. Rumiton (talk) 02:41, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Peer Review javascript

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Peasant Uprising

Someone should add a link for the Battle of Frankenhausen where it talks about the battle in the article. To give fair warning, I won't be here to defend my comments, so don't expect a response. 71.225.47.199 (talk) 01:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Marthin Luther and transubstantiation

Marthin Luther certaintly did not beleive in transubstantiation —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilbookworm7 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

i agree with the guy that said that Christ should accept the beleiver and not the beleiver accpt Christ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilbookworm7 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. As a cinfirmed and practicing Lutheran, I can say that we do not believe in transubstantiation and neither did Luther. We believe that the Body and Blood are manifested in the sacremental bread and wine once eaten/drank by the communicant. 4-2-08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.195.196.19 (talk) 13:27, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Uh Huh

I don't mean to brag but I cleaned up Vandalism on Martin Luther and I'm a Roman Catholic. Peace to all religions.--Angel David (talk) 02:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)