Talk:Massagetae/Archive 1

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Archive 1

More Löyly to Kiuas in Sauna

With other connection to people in Rha (Volga) area, I have found the connection with Mansi and Murdasa people proven linguistically by more than 250 loan words. This particulary with one Murdasa heimo Ersä (Erzja) and one formely un-noticed Mansi heimo which lived between Ersä and Thyssageti (Onougr). Herodotos: Thyssageti are own headed strange heimo who live for hunting. They climb up to the trees and shoot arrows. They have special dogs (Tibetan shepard dogs?) and hunt animals with their horses and their dogs running after them. Near Thyssageti live also Iyrkis who eat fruits of woods.

There have also been described; Murdasa were afraid of Massageti, but this seems to be one of those stories which cannot be taken so seriously.

When Herodotos wrote these describtions of "People behind the Skyytas" the best identification of these peoples are made in Finno Ugrian researchs, because their ancestors lived in the area, between (Dinjeper) Borysthenes and (Urali) Jaik. The Ibn Fadlan desctibtion was made nearly 1.400 years later of Sakaliba which is the favourite by both Slavonic and Türks to claim them as Türks and Slavs. The habit to take baths totally naked, both men and women together and behave naturally totally naked do not fit to neither peoples. Also the habit when man comes too old to hunt, he arranges big celebrations for whole his kin and they drink for good life the man have lived. Then, when he self decides he passes away from this life with the help of his eldest son. This was the general habit of all Siperian heimos and even Ainu people in Hokkaido and Sahalin islands. Sakari Pälsi witnesses such family rhithual pass away (helped with sons big knive without any pains for father), as late as in late 1800s, made by Tshuktshis. Also common habit among the Nenetsi people, who the Türks called Samojedi and later the Russians Samojeds (probaly loan from Türks) saying the name mean them as man eaters (Kannibals) eating their enemies hearts and drink after that.

Ibn Fadlan told also much, much more in his Risala. The Sakaliba had large number of cows and as karge numbers of pigs. Pigs in Musulmanni habit? He describe bath houses (sauna) as well and did the nomands build cellars in their houses? In addition there is at lest one other Risala preserved and it places Sakalibas live west of Volga Bolghars (or where they Volghars?). How can a large people dissapear just like that in 1236 and their both neighbourgs who lived east and west of them just like that survived. Both Udmurts and Murdasa (Mordvins) lived there before the Bolghars arrived and continued to live there to even this day.

Are the Persians blond or red heared and having light white skin? Only Finno Ugrians who lived in that area fullfill these describtions. All had common, the respection to the bear, the king of the forest, and clever as a human. And that this animal, for sure, is. Were there bears living in coneferous forrests in Persia, Central Asian and European steppes. I doubt that.

The only two dog races which are not afraid of bear are Karelian bear dog and Tibetan shepard dog. Or can anyone name more?

Melanklanes and Murdasas used also fur hats and black clothes. Look Mari old tradition to serve their Jomal even today, together with Udmurts the last (pagans) non Christians in Europe. Cheers. Finns and Estonians go to churches to serve Jumala (Christian Lord). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.92.48 (talk) 19:30, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Article title/preferred spelling

I don't know whether "Massagetae" or "Massageteans" is the most predominate spelling of the name of this people among contemporary authors, however, whichever is chosen, the title of the article should match the name given at the beginning of the first sentence. Right now this is not the case. Peter G Werner (talk) 18:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

River name?=

I'm wondering here how Araxes became Jartaxes? Is it correct to think Herodotus was indeed wrong about these two rivers, confusing them which in turn determines where Massagetae/Mazgits/MasgutA located? Araxes /Araz/Aras is the river in Caucasus which flows into the Caspian Sea. It flows from Turkey to Armenia and in Azerbaijan serving as a natural border between Azerbaijan and Iran. As per the Armenian tradition, the river is named after Arast, a great-grandson of the legendary Armenian patriarch Haik.[2] The name was later Hellenized to Araxes. In Turkic Ara/Araliq means distance/separation - the river always served as a separator between North & South Azerbaijan, Caucaisian Albania and Atropatena, Azerbaijan and Iran. Can somebody confirm in Greek Araxes means "fast stream" and is Syr Darya (Jartaxes) really a fast river (Araxes/Araz in Caucasus is fast). Whereas Syr Darya (Jaxartes) is a slow flowing river, from east to west, flowing into the Aral Sea. Why is Araz mistaken for Syr Darya in this interpretation of Heroditus' history?

Based on what was the Wikipedia article Masguts (other word for Greek version Massagetae) removed? It wass till there is Spetember 2006. In the article Araxes is referred to as Oxus (Amudarya!) and gives full evidence masguts/Massagetae were turkic speaking, not Iranic. In that article it transpoired that masguts did reach and stayed in caucasus and are even assosiated with Saucasian Albania (king Sanesan was a Masgut king of Caucasian Albania who tried to convert Massagetae to chtistian faith but then had to change his mind)

Here is from the 1st Book Of Herodotus CLIO (from Turkic World website):

[1.201] When Cyrus had achieved the conquest of the Babylonians, he conceived the desire of bringing the Massagetae under his dominion. Now the Massagetae are said to be a great and warlike nation, dwelling eastward, toward the rising of the sun, beyond the river Araxes, and opposite the Issedonians. By many they are regarded as a Scythian race.

[1.202] As for the Araxes, it is, according to some accounts, larger, according to others smaller than the Ister (Danube). It has islands in it, many of which are said to be equal in size to Lesbos. The men who inhabit them feed during the summer on roots of all kinds, which they dig out of the ground, while they store up the fruits, which they gather from the trees at the fitting season, to serve them as food in the winter-time. Besides the trees whose fruit they gather for this purpose, they have also a tree which bears the strangest produce. When they are met together in companies they throw some of it upon the fire round which they are sitting, and presently, by the mere smell of the fumes which it gives out in burning, they grow drunk, as the Greeks do with wine. More of the fruit is then thrown on the fire, and, their drunkenness increasing, they often jump up and begin to dance and sing. Such is the account which I have heard of this people.

My comment: As per Encyclopedia britannica: "On an island in the Aras stood Artaxata, seat of the Artaxiad kings of Armenia from 180 bc to ad 50. Some have held that the Aras River valley was the legendary Garden of Eden.". Indeed there are islands big anough to hold a king's Throne and fruits of nature are in abundance, river still full of fish.

The river Araxes, like the Gyndes, which Cyrus dispersed into three hundred and sixty channels, has its source in the country of the Matienians. It has forty mouths, whereof all, except one, end in bogs and swamps. These bogs and swamps are said to be inhabited by a race of men who feed on raw fish, and clothe themselves with the skins of seals. The other mouth of the river flows with a clear course into the Caspian Sea.

My comment: Araxes is clearly described here as originating in present day Turkey and flowing into the Caspian Sea. Why and how was it decided it was mistaken for Jaxartes?

[1.203] The Caspian is a sea by itself, having no connection with any other. The sea frequented by the Greeks, that beyond the Pillars of Hercules, which is called the Atlantic, and also the Erythraean, are all one and the same sea. But the Caspian is a distinct sea, lying by itself, in length fifteen days' voyage with a row-boat, in breadth, at the broadest part, eight days' voyage. Along its western shore runs the chain of the Caucasus, the most extensive and loftiest of all mountain-ranges. Many and various are the tribes by which it is inhabited, most of whom live entirely on the wild fruits of the forest. In these forests certain trees are said to grow, from the leaves of which, pounded and mixed with water, the inhabitants make a dye, wherewith they paint upon their clothes the figures of animals; and the figures so impressed never wash out, but last as though they had been inwoven in the cloth from the first, and wear as long as the garment.

[1.204] On the west then, as I have said, the Caspian Sea is bounded by the range of Caucasus. On the cast it is followed by a vast plain, stretching out interminably before the eye, the greater portion of which is possessed by those Massagetae, against whom Cyrus was now so anxious to make an expedition. Many strong motives weighed with him and urged him on - his birth especially, which seemed something more than human, and his good fortune in all his former wars, wherein he had always found that against what country whatsoever he turned his arms, it was impossible for that people to escape.

My comment: at first the reader will read as if Herodotus was writing about the east shore of the Caspian Sea being the vast plain but indeed if you read it as the east of the range of Caucasus (and not the Caspian) then it is too followed by the vast plain which is formed between the greater caucasus and Minor Caucasus. The plain stretches all the way to the caspian and of course in anient times couldbe regarded as vast plain and indeed it's horizons were as far as eyes could see (and beyond!) so this plain could be well situated in present day Azerbaijan. Description realy suits here more than the desert plains of Central Asia.

[1.205] At this time the Massagetae were ruled by a queen, named Tomyris, who at the death of her husband, the late king, had mounted the throne. To her Cyrus sent ambassadors, with instructions to court her on his part, pretending that he wished to take her to wife. Tomyris, however, aware that it was her kingdom, and not herself, that he courted, forbade the men to approach. Cyrus, therefore, finding that he did not advance his designs by this deceit, marched towards the Araxes, and openly displaying his hostile intentions; set to work to construct a bridge on which his army might cross the river, and began building towers upon the boats which were to be used in the passage.

My comment: In Azerbaijan currently live ppl who are turkic by language by most probably iranic by race (language replacement phonomenon). Azerbaijan's present territory was part of Scythia (and the Sounthern Azerbaijan was in Parthia). Also, present day Republic of Azerbaijan almost fully conicides with the ancient kingdom of Caucasian Albanina. As per Strabo, 26 tribes lived here. In Azerbaijan it is believed massagetae were one of the tribes who lived in Caucasian Albania & previously in Southern Azerbaijan, around lake Urmiyeh. from http://www.zerbaijan.com/albania/caucasian-albania.html: <<The area was also inhabited by Sak's (also spelled as Sakas, Sacae, or Shakas), from which the name "Artsakh" means "Land of manly Sak's." They lived in the region already in IV century B.C. The other major people were Massagets (Massagetai, Mazkits). In many scholarly sources both ancient people were referred to as Ishguz's. The Massagetai, who lived all around Caspian Sea, had previously formed their kingdom in South Azerbaijan (Iranian Azerbaijan), around lake Urmiyeh, and ancient Greek historian Herodotus makes a reference to their ruler, Queen Tomris, who personally led her troops against Cyrus II the Great of Persia and killed him in 529 BC. It should be noted that Tomris is a Turkic name, in fact, the name of the she-wolf who according to the myth saved ancient Turks from annihilation. >>

[1.206] While the Persian leader was occupied in these labors, Tomyris sent a herald to him, who said, “King of the Medes, cease to press this enterprise, for thou canst not know if what thou art doing will be of real advantage to thee. Be content to rule in peace thy own kingdom, and bear to see us reign over the countries that are ours to govern. As, however, I know thou wilt not choose to hearken to this counsel, since there is nothing thou less desirest than peace and quietness, come now, if thou art so mightily desirous of meeting the Massagetae in arms, leave thy useless toil of bridge-making; let us retire three days' march from the river bank, and do thou come across with thy soldiers; or, if thou likest better to give us battle on thy side the stream, retire thyself an equal distance.“Cyrus, on this offer, called together the chiefs of the Persians, and laid the matter before them, requesting them to advise him what he should do. All the votes were in favor of his letting Tomyris cross the stream, and giving battle on Persian ground.

My coment: the river is not so big, so can be called a stream which holds true about Araz but not Syr Darya which is much wider. Also, it is this river that could be regarded as a natural separator between Scythia and Parthia. Look at this map of the region as it was in 1 c BChttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png (Tomyris lived around 530 BC). If you see Syr Darya Jatraxes is way above the border between Scythia and Parthia. Also, even in Azerbaijan we have the tradition of women's equality to men. E.g. when Shah Ismail Khatai of safavid dynasty went to war in 1516, his wife dressed like a man and took role of Emperor while her husband were gone. Also, curently Azeri socienty exhibits this equality between men and women and depsite Islamic tradition following the Arab conquest of Azerbaijan in 7c AD, the Azeri woman was the first one liberated from veil/chador and took up positions in politics, arts, medicine etc in 1918. The spirit of this equality whether due to the Turkic tradidion or the Scythian/Massagetae (Iranic) tradition is still alive. Also Azeris being a Turkic speaking ppl carry the legend of Tomris mother wolf who saved her ppl (Kitabi Dede Korqut). From Massagetae Azeris under influence of Turkic tribes arriving here in differrent times constantly (last being Oguz Turks in 11 c AD) may carry this memory of Tomiris intertwined with the Turkic (verbal) folklor which could have simply adopted the story of Tomyris from Massagetae and due to verbal tradition it could easily become hybridised with the Turkic totem of "she wolf". When talking about Scythians and Turkics, it may be difficult to say where one starts and the other ends.

1.210] Thus Cyrus spoke, in the belief that he was plotted against by Darius; but he missed the true meaning of the dream, which was sent by God to forewarn him, that he was to die then and there, and that his kingdom was to fall at last to Darius.

Hystaspes made answer to Cyrus in these words:- “Heaven forbid, sire, that there should be a Persian living who would plot against thee! If such an one there be, may a speedy death overtake him! Thou foundest the Persians a race of slaves, thou hast made them free men: thou foundest them subject to others, thou hast made them lords of all. If a vision has announced that my son is practicing against thee, lo, I resign him into thy hands to deal with as thou wilt.“Hystaspes, when he had thus answered, re-crossed the Araxes and hastened back to Persia, to keep a watch on his son Darius.

[1.215] In their dress and mode of living the Massagetae resemble the Scythians. They fight both on horseback and on foot, neither method is strange to them: they use bows and lances, but their favorite weapon is the battle-axe. Their arms are all either of gold or brass. For their spear-points, and arrow-heads, and for their battle-axes, they make use of brass; for head-gear, belts, and girdles, of gold. So too with the caparison of their horses, they give them breastplates of brass, but employ gold about the reins, the bit, and the cheek-plates. They use neither iron nor silver, having none in their country; but they have brass and gold in abundance.

My comment: It's been always known present day Azerbaijan was settled by Scythians from 8 c BC if not earlier. Massagetae could well be a type of Scythians. As Scythians were vast confederation, it's possible that not all Scythians were Massagetae but Massagetae were type of Scythians. They may have differred from other Scythians in some traditions which may have been either indeginous to them or adopted from neighbouring tribes (Uralic or Turkic, referrign to the previous two commentators here). Whether Scythians and Massagetae were iranic or turkic speaking I will not discuss here but definitely there is no final decision on this. In Transcaucasia or rather in present day Azerbaijan, indeed there always been plenty of gold and copper (brass and bronze are copper alloys) both of which was used extensivelye and later iron was also found.

[1.216] The following are some of their customs; - Each man has but one wife, yet all the wives are held in common; for this is a custom of the Massagetae and not of the Scythians, as the Greeks wrongly say. Human life does not come to its natural close with this people; but when a man grows very old, all his kinsfolk collect together and offer him up in sacrifice; offering at the same time some cattle also. After the sacrifice they boil the flesh and feast on it; and those who thus end their days are reckoned the happiest. If a man dies of disease they do not eat him, but bury him in the ground, bewailing his ill-fortune that he did not come to be sacrificed. They sow no grain, but live on their herds, and on fish, of which there is great plenty in the Araxes. Milk is what they chiefly drink. The only god they worship is the sun, and to him they offer the horse in sacrifice; under the notion of giving to the swiftest of the gods the swiftest of all mortal creatures

As you can see here, the original test shows Araxes - on what basis and who changed it to Jatraxes?

My comment: Was the original text by Herodotus showing Araxes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lookingfortruth1 (talk • contribs) 13:31, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Important Scholars who identified Massagetaeans as "Great Jits or Jats" of Asia

Important Scholars who identified Jat people as Massagetaeans:



  • Sir John Marshall, (Former Director-General of the Archaeological Survey of India) wrote: "These Scythian invaders came principally from the three great tribes of Massagetae (great Jats), Sacaraucae, and Dahae (still exists as a Jat clan of Punjab)[1], whose home at the beginning of the second century B.C. was in the country between the Caspian sea (sea) and the Jaxartes river (Central Asia).[2]



  • Professor Tadeusz Sulimirski wrote: "The evidence of both the ancient authors and the archaeological remains point to a massive migration of Sacian (Sakas) & Massagetae (great Jats) tribes from the Syr Darya Delta (Central Asia) by the middle of the second century B.C. Some of the Syr Darya tribes; they also invaded North India.[3]



  • James Francis Katherinus Hewitt wrote: "Further evidence both of the early history and origin of the race of Jats, or Getae, is given by the customs and geographical position of another tribe of the same stock, called the Massagetae, or great (massa) Getae."[4]



  • Syed Muhammad Latif wrote: "A considerable portion of the routed army of the Scythians settled in the Punjab, and a race of them, called Nomardy, inhabited the country on the west bank of the Indus (river). They are described as a nomadic tribe, living in wooden houses, after the old Scythian fashion, and settling where they found sufficient pasturage. A portion of these settlers, the descendants of Massagetae, were called Getes, from whom sprung the modern Jats."[5]



  • Arnold Joseph Toynbee wrote: "It may not be fantastic to conjecture that the Tuetonic-speaking Goths and Gauts of Scandinavia may have been descended from a fragment of the same Indo-European-speaking tribe as the homonymous Getae and Thyssagetae and Massagetae of the Eurasian Steppe who are represented today by the Jats of the Panjab."[6]



  • Arnold Joseph Toynbee, also wrote: "It had been carried from the Oxus-Jaxartes Basin into the Indus Basin by the Massagetae themselves, together with their tribal name (the Jats), in their Volkerwander- ung in the second century BC"[7]





  • Satya Shrava wrote: "The Jats are none other than the Massagetae (Great Getae) mentioned in Diodorus as an off-spring of the ancient Saka tribe.... a fact now well-known."[12][13]





References:


(1) Dahiya, B.S., Jats: The Ancient Rulers, Sterling Publishers Pvt. Ltd., New Delhi, India, 1980, pp. 23.

(2) Sir John Marshall, (Sir, Hon. Fellow of King's College, Cambridge University, and formerly Director-General of Archaeology in India), A Guide to Taxila, Cambridge University Press, London, 1960, pp. 24.

(3) Professor T. Sulimirski, The Sarmatians, Praeger Publishers, New York, 1970, pp. 113-114.

(4) Hewitt, J. F., The Ruling Races of Prehistoric Times in India, South-Western Asia and Southern Europe, Archibald Constable & Co., London, 1894, pp. 481-487.

(5) Latif, S. M., History of the Panjab, Reprinted by Progressive Books, Lahore, Pakistan, 1984, first published in 1891, pp. 56.

(6) Toynbee, Arnold Joseph (1939). A Study of History. Volume 2. London: Oxford University Press. p. 435.

(7) Royal Institute of International Affairs; Toynbee, Arnold Joseph (1962). A Study of History (2 ed.). Volume 10. Oxford University Press. p. 54.

(8) Rawlinson, George (1873). The sixth great Oriental monarchy: or, The geography, history, & antiquities of Parthia. Longmans, Green, and co. p. 118

(9) Rawlinson, George (1893). The story of Parthia. G. P. Putnam's sons. p. 110.

(10) Rawlinson, George (2007). Parthia. Cosimo, Inc. p. 110. ISBN 160206136X.

(11) Rawlinson, George (2010). The Seven Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World: Or, The History, Geography and Antiquities of Chaldæa, Assyria, Babylon, Media, Persia, Parthia, and Sassanian Or New Persian Empire. Volume 3. Nottingham Society. p. 66.

(12) Shrava, Satya (1981). The Sakas in India (revised ed.). New Delhi: Pranava Prakashan, 1981.

(13) http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

(14) Burton, Richard Francis (Sir) (2008). The Book of the Sword. Cosimo, Inc. p. 90. ISBN 1605204366, 9781605204369.

— 11:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


Viva-la-Truth !! — 13:57, 14 August 2012 (UTC)



Reference:

(15) Rishi, Weer Rajendra (1982). India & Russia: linguistic & cultural affinity. Roma Publications. p. 95.

— 12:41, 19 August 2012 (UTC)



Reference:

(16) Collins, Steven M. (2005). Israel's Tribes Today (illustrated ed.). Book 4 of Lost tribes of Israel, Steven M. Collins.Bible Blessings. ISBN 0972584935, 9780972584937.


Mr. Collins @ Canadian British-Israel Association. — 14:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


(17) Rawlinson, George (2012). The Seven Great Monarchies Of The Ancient Eastern World, Vol 6. (of 7): Parthia The History, Geography, And Antiquities Of Chaldaea, Assyria, Babylon, Media, Persia, Parthia, And Sassanian or New Persian Empire, With Maps and Illustrations. Tredition. ISBN 3847205145, 9783847205142.

— 07:22, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

  • Balbir Singh Dhillon also advocates that the Massagetaeans are none other than the "Great Jits or Jats" of Asia.[18]


Reference:

(18) Dhillon, Balbir Singh (1994). History and study of the Jats: with reference to Sikhs, Scythians, Alans, Sarmatians, Goths, and Jutes (illustrated ed.). Canada: Beta Publishers. ISBN 1895603021, 9781895603026.

— 13:05, 25 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.207.58.5 (talk)

Comments

Criztu, you wrote in the article that in Old Persian 'massa' means 'big'---but has any reference connected this word with the ethnonym Massagetae? Just want to verify the info. Alexander 007 20:32, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

i have to say i read on a site that massa meant big in old iranian, hmm... - Criztu 21:18, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

now, just after googling for Moesians, i've came upon a dialog about Moesi in the Haemus -> Mysi in Anatolia, known as Masa by the hittites http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/ANE/ANE-DIGEST/1999/v1999.n203 -- Criztu 23:07, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Maha/Mah means big and the Indo-Iranian s->h is common. --alidoostzadeh 19:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Exactly, just like the name of the province "Mazenderan" which means "Mas Indra" or great Indra


Indeed Maz is a word of Iranian orgin which means big and Saka means Scythian. The Iranian-root Maz (big, great) is related to its counterparts in the Sanskrit (Maha) and in the Greek (Mega). Babakexorramdin 06:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Read: http://books.google.co.in/books?id=UYkOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA214#v=onepage&q&f=false — 08:00, 24 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.207.60.133 (talk)

The Padma Shri awardee linguist Weer Rajendra Rishi wrote, "In Pahlavi language the word massa means great. In Avesta massa is also used in the sense of greatness. (http://books.google.co.in/books?id=Vns_AAAAMAAJ&q=Massa#search_anchor) — 122.173.210.28 (talk) 02:48, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Reference error

The reference in Procopius to "the Massagetai, whom they now call Huns" is wrong. It should be III.xi.9. III.xi does not even go up to 37. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.153.189 (talk) 03:24, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Iranian?

I doubt that Massagetae is iranian name. You should not forget that Massagetae is how Herodotus described these people, and he was Greek, he adaptated foreign names to his own greek language.

The etnonym Massaget is etymologized in a number of ways. In the traditional historical science prevails the opinion that the Massaget means "Great Gets", there were also suggestions that the Massaget is in Persian "fisheaters" (Pers. masya "fish"). Many are inclined to parse the word Massaget as Mas-sakata or Mas-saka, which means "Great (big) Saka Horde" or "Great Sakas", meaning under the Sakas a Persian-lingual people (Dovatur A.I., 1982, 183).

There are also weighty arguments to count Massagets as Türks.

Anyway even if it could be translated as "Great Gets" what does "get" part means? I.e. what does "get" mean?

The word Massagetae possibly can be reconstructed as *mazakatai, where *maza 'big/small', in Persian maza 'big' while in Latvian maza 'small' and katas 'being' (katas < *kas-tas? 'what's that?', Latvian: kas tas?). The word katas was used to describe unknown beings, like Iranian katas 'a cat' (as it comes from Africa, it was unknown animal for Persians before, when Persians first time saw the cat, they said: «Kas tas?» 'Whats that?', so the cat was called katas), markatas 'monkey', verbatim '(over)sea(s) cat', cf. German Mehr katze, Latvian mērkaķis. So *Mazakatai were most likely 'Big (tall) beings'. Roberts7 15:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

First, the neighbors of the Massagets by the name Horasm (Huarasm "My Suaras"), Tochar (Dag-ar "Mountain People") and their subjects in the confederation by the name Apasiak (Apa-Sak "Senior Sakas"), Attasi (Atty-As "horsed Ases"), Augasi (Awag-As "Capricious Ases"), Derbik (Dar-bek "Decisive, Comradely Beks"), most likely, were Türkic-speaking, therefore some historians link Massagets with the ancestors of the Turkmen.

The composite word Massaget in the Türkic model can be parsed into parts as mas-saga-ta, where the root is Saka, the initial Türkic ethnonym, mas or mach is the Türkic word with the meaning "happiness, matching, similar", -ta is the plural index (-tar/-lar). The Massaget means "Happy Sakas".

But let's leave old "origin of name" discussion for another time. Let us look into cultural and anthropological facts:

Theophan the Byzantian (5 c.) renders Huns as Scythians. He writes: Meanwhile Scyth Attila, son of Omnudiy, brave and proud man, removed his senior brother Vdela, assumed sole authority over Scythians, which also are named Unns, and attacked Thracia (Theophan the Byzantian, 1884, 81). On the other side, he depicts Türks as Massagets: East from Tanaid live Türks, in antiquity called Massagets. Persians in their language call them Kermikhions (Byzantian Historians. SPb., 1861, 492). In this record of Theophan deserves an attention the fact that he knew well both Massagets (one of the Scythian tribes), and Persians. If Scythians-Massagets spoke Persian, he would inevitably note this detail. But Theophan identifies Massagets with Türks, not the Persians.

Strabo said that Massagetae were sky-worshippers ("They regard Helius alone as god, and to him they sacrifice horses") in very familiar manner as modern Buryats, Tuvans & Altaic turks who worship Sky-God "Tenger" (bur.) & "Tura" (tuv.). Strabo also said: "And they consider it the best kind of death when they are old to be chopped up with the flesh of cattle and eaten mixed up with that flesh. But those who die of disease are cast out as impious and worthy only to be eaten by wild beasts."

This is very similar to Issedonians, as described by Herodotus: "[4.26] The Issedonians are said to have the following customs. When a man's father dies, all the near relatives bring sheep to the house; which are sacrificed, and their flesh cut in pieces, while at the same time the dead body undergoes the like treatment. The two sorts of flesh are afterwards mixed together, and the whole is served up at a banquet. The head of the dead man is treated differently: it is stripped bare, cleansed, and set in gold. It then becomes an ornament on which they pride themselves, and is brought out year by year at the great festival which sons keep in honour of their fathers' death, just as the Greeks keep their Genesia. In other respects the Issedonians are reputed to be observers of justice: and it is to be remarked that their women have equal authority with the men. Thus our knowledge extends as far as this nation.

Concerning the fact of gender-equality it should be noted that Volga Bulgars & Oghuz Turks had very same tradition:

Ibn Fadlan: (About Oghuzes) "Their women do not cover from their men and from others of them, and also a woman does not cover anything of her body from anybody of the people. And really, in one of the days we stopped at a man of theirs and sat down, and the wife of this person sat together with us. And, talking to us, she opened her "fardj" and scratched it while we looked at her. Then we closed our faces and said: "My God, Forgive me!" The husband of hers laughed and said to the translator: "Tell them, - we open it in your presence and you see it, and she protects it so, that there is no access to it. It is better, than if she would cover it and (at the same time) would concede it to somebody". They do not know fornication, but if they find out anything about somebody, they break off him in two halves, namely: they pull together an branches of two trees, then tie him to the branches and release both trees, and the one between the unbending (trees) is ripped apart."

Ibn Fadlan: (About Bulgars) "Men and women go down to the river and bathe together naked, do not cover one from another and do not commit adultery in any way and there is no possibility. And who of them committed adultery, whoever he was, for him are staked four thills, his hands and legs are tied to them and he is dissected with an axe from his nape to his hips. And the same way they deal with the woman too. Then each piece of him and her is suspended on a tree. I did not cease to try that women would be covered from men, but that I did not manage to correct. And they kill a thief the same way as they kill a fornicator."

Strabo: "Each man (of Massagetae) marries only one wife..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iliassh (talk • contribs) 09:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

That is what all scholars say today. Also Helius is not the Sky but the Sun, which in Iranian mythology is identified with Mithra, modern Persian word for the Sun is Mehr which also comes from Mithra. Nomads (both Iranian and others) have had similar lifestyle and women were more liberated in nomadic societies since they had a great role to play. One can see that in both Iranian speaking and Turkish speaking nomads of today's Iran. Also the juxtaposition of Huns and Scythians is due to geographical region, but many, even ancient authorities distinguished between Scythians/Alans on one hand and Huns on the other. So Huns and Scythians/Alans were not the same people, and even for example, Ottomans are called Romans in Persian literature. Khwarizm (what you called Horasm) were not Turkic people, there is even linguistic material from the Khwarizmian language and books in that language. [1] and Strabo links the Massagetae with the Khwarizmians. The Chorasmian language is recorded in books and different written material and is a relatively studied language. Several manuscripts and sentences in this language (which is the same area where Massagetae lived) lives no doubt on the nature of the old Chorasmian language. --alidoostzadeh (talk) 12:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I know that Helios is Sun. But what was the difference for a Greek man either it Sun or Sky? they regarded both as generally common. Arabic Bedouin nomad women aren't that "liberated" as Kazakh women in Mongolia & East Turkestan where they still practice nomadic way of life. During winter Nenets women usually spend their time in chums, care about children and toddlers while their husbands are herding reindeers, hunting or fishing. Nomadic Roma people are also very strict about it, men are seen higher than women whose work is to care about children, such thing is more common in Eastern Europe and Russia than Central Europe, where Roma are rather settled settled population. Now this contradicts information that nomadic scythian women fought alongside with men in war and went to hunt.
The juxtaposition of Huns and Scythians seems to be strange, Europeans and especially greeks were already familiar with Persia and some of Central Asia. It's known that Hunns could be the Herodotus's Neuri, and Neuri were known to have affiliation with Scythians. Anyway Why would a Greek confuse a mongoloid, (as western science says, though without any genetic analytical proof) black-haired, low-heighted people with high-stated "indo-iranian" blondes and reds? The whole idea of scythians being blondes and reds can't give enough evidence of their indo-iranism. Take Sami and Suomi (Finns) for example, they're mostly blonde and still they're not iranian. Take Karaim as example, they're descendants of Khazars and yet they're not mongoloids.
You trying to say that Massagetae & Chorasmians were iranians only because scripts in "Chorasmian" language was found there. Though there are no evidences that these language couldn't be an adaptated version of persian (like tajik or pamir languages) or some north-indic language like modern kashmiri. If Chorasmians were really iranian they couldn't "disappear". Tajiks most of their history lived under turkic & muslim rulers and their language hasn't disappeared, same situation in India. There are no such thing as "massive immigration" and if we take that modern-day population is approx. 6,6 billion, at that time it was in 3 times smaller. Could it be so that Chorasmians were so little nation that they eventually "disappeared". Ofcourse if we'll view it from the point of western science that depicts Seljuk Turks as immigrant horde of pillagers we say "yes". But if we'll look sober we'll see that assimmilation by exteriors is rarely found in history. You can't consider people iranian only because of language. Hungarians speak & write in ugric language but it's obvius that they are descendants of turkic magyars. Another good example is Buryat word for ruler spirit hormasta which is strikingly persian still doesn't make them iranians. Kazakh language have tons of persian words and still we're not iranian.
Iranica isn't very accurate:
"Turkish steppe" weren't pagan, Seljuqs were muslims, even non-muslim turks never worshipped different deities like did Mediterraneans or Aztecs. Ibn Fadlan noted that turks took different spirits as their "patrons" but when being faced to difficulties or oppression they looked at the sky and cried "Oh, God!". This is clearly described in Ibn-Fadlan's Risala[2].
Iranica describes turkic peoples as barbarians which is anti-scientifical, since no one shall be viewed as barbarian in fair science.
And still, all notable turkologists admitted that scythians, sakas and sarmats in general consisted of proto-turkic tribes.
Visual culture (metalwork, clothing & etc.) is surely turkic. Toponymy in from Central Asia to Pontic steppe is dominantly turkic. Iranians weren't known for their horsemanship and archery, instead nomads were viewed by parthians as barbarians. Even arabs are better known for their horsemanship than persians or iranians. Clothing is different, iranians & indo-europeans in general never had pointed hats, Pamirian nomads never had pointed hats. But turkic kazakhs and karakalpaks had such clothes. This is obvious fact and it can't be denied.[3],[4] Iliassh (talk)

you are mixing history. the Massa people lived in central asia like 3rd century BC, while the Turkic began to migrate into the central Asia steppes only after the 3rd century AD. now how could the 600 years disappeared? the Massagetae people may not be Iranian speaking peoples, but definetely not Turkic or any other Mongolic peoples. the women fighters are not found on any member of the Mongoloid races originated from the Mongolian plateau, even though the Kazakh women are more "liberated", they have never became warriors! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.73.78.62 (talk) 09:52, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

unsigned: You are mixing everything. First of all, Turkic people are not Mongolic people and they do not originate from Mongolia. Proto-Turkic culture first appeared in Urals. There are many kinds of people among Turkic people because it's not a racial label. Second of all, Turkic people did not migrate to Central Asia after any other people in history. It's their homeland and when Turkic culture arrived Central Asia from the Urals, there were probably no other culture there. Turkic women were warriors even at the start of 20th century. Ancalimonungol (talk) 02:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Are getes also massagatae?

What about getes, are these the same people?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uShGAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA453&dq=jatt+scythia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lZzCUu-9H4WChQf4wICYCg&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCQ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sakayriaz (talk • contribs) 13:38, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

TheSuave's query ?!

TheSuave has made a controversial edit to Indo-Scythians that is being discussed at the respective Article, because of the comments texted in the edit summary. Here's the link -->> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Indo-Scythians&diff=next&oldid=537210405 . And, My Friend, TheSuave, may well, made the same one to this respective Article as well. Well, Friends, while Tadeusz Sulimirski's book, The Sarmatians, is not available in "full preview" at Google Books, but certainly, I have found-out a way, that maybe satisfactory, as well. A website, http://www.jattworld.com/ , has published a book by a Canadian author, in which the work of Tadeusz Sulimirski has been appreciated, and the Quote mentioned in the Reference-script, that TheSuave has declared to have been "corrupted", is mentioned, and can be verified online. So, Please do Yourselves this much favour, and click on the link that follows, to verify it for the sake of civility -->> http://www.jattworld.com/online/library/books/1-are-jats-scythians (the 70th one). Thanks !! ← Abstruce 20:42, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

I have indeed checked out the Sulimirski reference atSenate House (I study at UoL) , and it is safe to say that the bracketed text in said quote is an insertion, most likely from the 'jattworld' website that you have listed. It is likely that whoever added the reference in fact lifted the quote from said 'jattworld' website and proceeded to reference the original Sulimirski book, which does not contain that bracketed text that is attributed to the reference. There are also issues with the 'jattworld' site that you have listed, and I believe it to be a questionable source, as per WP:IRS with an inherent lack of editorial oversight, which throws up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view issues since the site you have listed is well known for attempting to advance a theory of racial separateness of Jatt populations and their surrounding communities. Also, please refrain from capitalizing certain words in your edit summaries, or directing edit summaries at myself to get my attention - it is much more apt to use talk pages for such matters. Thanks,TheSuave 23:32, 10 February 2013 (UTC)


NPOV says describe not take sides om a debate - what is jatt theory of separateness?

Is there a wiki page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sakayriaz (talk • contribs) 13:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Npov check

The suaves query, above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sakayriaz (talk • contribs) 13:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Four queries above, on the tallk page.

Sakayriaz (talk) 12:30, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Are getes also massagatae?

What about getes, are these the same people?

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uShGAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA453&dq=jatt+scythia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lZzCUu-9H4WChQf4wICYCg&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCQ

Sigh

My nan is more Turkic/Mongolian/(insert more hoax here) than the Massagetae were. Stop it and move on, jeez. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:15, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: How this message is related to the current status of this article? Any specific diffs? --Wario-Man (talk) 17:22, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
Well it seems like someone atm is having fun removing the Iranian lede, only to get rightfully reverted. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:29, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Changed to Indo-European

Could I have an explanation why the article lead was changed from, "...an ancient Eastern Iranian nomadic confederation.." to "..were an Indo-European nomadic confederation..."[5]?

Having checked all 5 sources:

  • 1.Karasulas, Antony. Mounted Archers Of The Steppe 600 BC-AD 1300 (Elite). Osprey Publishing, 2004, ISBN 184176809X, p. 7, states the Massagetae spoke an Iranian language, which does not necessarily mean they were Iranic. Which Karasulas goes into detail about how certain other peoples spoke a Turkic language but were not Turkic.(pages 7-8) Also, as far as I could find, Karasulas is a doctoral student at the Australian National University, so I have concerns over his reliability as a source.
  • 2.Wilcox, Peter. Rome's Enemies: Parthians and Sassanids. Osprey Publishing, 1986, ISBN 0-85045-688-6, p. 9, states the Massagetae were an Iranian people, however I can not find anything about Wilcox. Therefore, for me, his reliability as a source is a concern.
  • 3.Gershevitch, Ilya. The Cambridge History of Iran (Volume II). Cambridge University Press, 1985, ISBN 0-521-20091-1, p. 48, states the Massagetae were an Eastern Iranian tribe.
  • 4.Grousset, René. The Empire of the Steppes. Rutgers University Press, 1989, ISBN 0-8135-1304-9, p. 547, fine source, however, the page simply states what Massyagata means in Iranian. Which does not mean they were Iranic.
  • 5.The Cambridge History of Iran: The Median and Achaemenian periods. By Ilya Gershevitch, same source as #3.
So essentially, only the Cambridge source is viable, however if the Wilcox source checks out it would also be a viable source.
The change to "Indo-European" would actually be original research, as opposed to what the Cambridge source states. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:22, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Modern racial perceptual blindfolds prevent people from realizing there is NO distinction of discrete, separable nice-and-tidy sort betwixt the oldest "Germanic" and "Iranian" and "Italo-Celtic" etc. groups BECAUSE ALL THE SAME. So sad. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:B34B:A940:18DB:488A:D530:E944 (talk) 01:46, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
I see where you are coming from - Jordanes, he certainly writes remembering a time when they were basically the same. But modern terminology enables us to be more specific than just Indo European, so why not use Indo Iranian? Surely dialectical differences between the Indo European groups were emerging by around 2000 bc, distinguishing Indo Iranian, long before the Massagetae were historically attested ca. 600 bc? 172.58.217.32 (talk) 15:48, 6 February 2017 (UTC)
I think I agree with 2602:304. The article says we know little about their language.
There was clearly a tendency for ancient Greek/Roman authors to use "Scythian" as a generic term for Central Asian peoples, for ancient Indian authors to turn them all into "Sakas". Both names imply that they spoke an Indo-Aryan language, but that is about all we have. There is the theory (not fact) that the Massagetae were the Saka-haumavarda, but that is even less solid.
I mean even if it can be shown that the Massagetae were speaking an Iranian language at a later point in ther history, it doesn't mean that they were to start with. The links posited to the Getae, Thyssagetae etc may be an artifact of ancient Greeks scholars and their sources having no "ear" for the actual name. Or it could be real – in which case the Massagetae perhaps spoke a language more like Dacian/Thracian. We just don't know.
It's a similar situation with neighbouring, possibly peoples like the Dahae and Yuezhi, both of whom are often classified as Iranian, based on the languages that they last used. But in fact, there signs that the Dahae were linguistically not similar to their Iranian-speaking south-western neighbours in Varkana (Hyrcania), even though there were other ties between them. The Yuezhi speaking Iranian languages by the time they became the Kushans, but when they lived in Gansu and the Tarim, they may have been speaking Tocharian languages – which, strangely enough, were more closely related to Anatolian and Italo-Celtic (as shown the recent work of Don Ringe and others).
Grant | Talk 03:07, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
Neither Dahae, nor Yuezhi are often classified as "Iranian", unlike Massagetae. So your comparison and arguments make no sense. 185.8.62.109 (talk) 07:33, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Massagetae history? Pretty elusive, the only solid dates for a date span are 538 bc when they defeated Cyrus as Herodotus tells us, and 339 bc when Alexander dealt with them in the same vicinity, the Jaxartes. This is subsequent to Indo Iranian and Indo Aryan dialects already being attested, so the other poster claiming Indo Iranian, Germanic and Celtic were all the same, is thinking of a time before 2000 bc. Who says Massagetae were anything other than Indo Iranian? 172.58.217.32 (talk) 03:21, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Stop these original research edits please, sources acknowledge them as Iranians. Basta. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:31, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Massagetae and Mushki

What is in this section now is the very epitome of original research and original wp:SYNTHesis. If the best you can do is "a link to Mushki can be inferred" from joining so-and-so with so-and-so, but you can't name even one scholar who has previously drawn such a link, this does not belong here and will continue to be removed (and always added again by the same editor) 172.58.185.71 (talk) 12:57, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

Massagetae were related to the Yuezhi, not to the Gutians

All this scholars: Alexander Cunningham, James P. Mallory, Victor H. Mair B.S. Dahiya and Edgar Knobloch relate Massagetae to the Yuezhi, not the Gutians. Gutians are related to the Yuezhi, not the Massagetae - Henning.[6] --Българ (talk) 23:42, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

No historical document ever mentioned the names "Massagetae" and "Yuezhi" on the same page until several thousand years afterwards in the 20th century, then of course every 20th century historian makes a pet theory that M=Y, or that M ruled Y, or that Y ruled M. We can mention their pet theories but it is important to stress that they remain pet theories until historical evidence is found actually tying the names Massagetae and Yuezhi together somehow. Alcatel AddixTron (talk) 12:10, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

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Massagetae - Gutians connection or why some editors are editing articles which they don't understand?

Where in the cited books all these authors make connection Massagetae - Gutians? Wishful thinking, insufficient knowledge or disruptive edits? There were attempts to connect part of the Yuezhi tribes to Gutians and this information is not for this article but article Yuezhi. Allmost all authors accept the connection Massagetae - Yuezhi. However Yuezhi were 7 tribes, while Massagetae were 3 tribes. It is accepted that 3 of the Massagetian tribes were part of the Yuezhi confederation. If some of the other 4 tribes can be connected to Gutians is a different story and it is for the article Yuezhi. Dahiya and others connects part of the Yuezhi with Thyssagetae. All this should be explained on the article, I can provide sources. --79.100.1.131 (talk) 15:05, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

mainstream scholars seem to agree that massagetae were part of the Yuezhi confederation: Lozinski (1984); Tolstov (1961) Sulimirsky (1970)[1] + cited books on the article--79.100.1.131 (talk) 18:28, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Massagetae - Gutians connection or why some editors are editing articles which they don't understand?

Where in the cited books all these authors make connection Massagetae - Gutians? Wishful thinking, insufficient knowledge or disruptive edits? There were attempts to connect part of the Yuezhi tribes to Gutians and this information is not for this article but article Yuezhi. Allmost all authors accept the connection Massagetae - Yuezhi. However Yuezhi were 7 tribes, while Massagetae were 3 tribes. It is accepted that 3 of the Massagetian tribes were part of the Yuezhi confederation. If some of the other 4 tribes can be connected to Gutians is a different story and it is for the article Yuezhi. Dahiya and others connects part of the Yuezhi with Thyssagetae. All this should be explained on the article, I can provide sources.

mainstream scholars seem to agree that massagetae were part of the Yuezhi confederation: Lozinski (1984); Tolstov (1961) Sulimirsky (1970)[2]79.100.239.184 (talk) 20:24, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Massagetae = Fish Eaters?

Encyclopedia Iranica says their name likely means "fish eaters" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:1C2:F00:3946:B1C4:E952:351E:C6F5 (talk) 21:01, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Page mergers

I have merged the contents of Orthocorybantians into the Massagetae entry because scholars are in agreement that the Sakā tigraxaudā/Orthokorubantes and the Massagetae were one and the same, and I have merged the contents of Derbices and Apasiacae into the Massagetae entry because both of these tribes were part of the Massagetae and there is not enough information about either of these tribes that they can have non-stub pages of their own.

Some scholars also identify the Dahā/Dahai with the Massagetae, but I have not merged the contents of that page into the Massagetae entry because there is also a significant number of scholars who still don't accept the identification of the Dahā/Dahai with the Massagetae. And I recommend against attempting to merge the contents of these two pages so long as there is not any confirmation that the Dahā/Dahai were indeed identical with the Massagetae. Antiquistik (talk) 16:48, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Merged content from

Antiquistik (talk) 21:19, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

  1. ^ page 201, https://books.google.bg/books?id=jCpncXFzoFgC&pg=PA201&dq=massagetae+yuezhi&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFzM-BkZLaAhXCliwKHUc4AFoQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=massagetae%20yuezhi&f=false
  2. ^ page 201, https://books.google.bg/books?id=jCpncXFzoFgC&pg=PA201&dq=massagetae+yuezhi&hl=bg&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFzM-BkZLaAhXCliwKHUc4AFoQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=massagetae%20yuezhi&f=false
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