Talk:Michael Everson/Archive 2
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Explorations leading to the choice: 葉密豪 Yè Mìháo
| Readings of Michael Everson's name in Han characters | |
| Name | 葉密豪 |
| Tang | *Iɛp Myit Hou |
| Mandarin | Yè Mìháo |
| Cantonese | Yihp Maht-hòuh |
| Taiwanese | Ia̍p Bi̍t-hô |
| Hakka | Yap8 Met8-hau2 |
| Korean | Yeop Milho (엽밀호) |
| Vietnamese | Diệp Mật Hào |
| Japanese | Hano Mitsugō |
What about 傅埋刻 Fù Máikè: the grandmaster of arcane types? 傅 (Fù) is an established surname. – Kaihsu 21:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- Hm. Interesting. Āi Fúsēn is just "Everson" and there are many of those (well, not so many, but some). You're suggesting going back to "familyname" + "Michael" which seems friendly enough. In 傅埋刻 Fù Máikè, the Máikè has different tones from the standard "Michael", Màikè. Is this a problem? For that matter, what about 符埋刻 Fú Máikè? I have not much sense for tone and don't know whether these sound felicitous or not. Evertype 21:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- I just reminded myself, after some web searches, that 符 (Fú) is also a surname, but not as populous. The tones are inconsequential in transliteration from English unless the result happens to map to something particularly non-felicitous. 符埋刻 is not particularly felicitous, but projects an image of someone steeped in studies and diligent ... for me at least. – Kaihsu 20:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- "符埋刻" in Taiwanese is "Hû Bâi-khek", I think. "傅埋刻" = "Pò͘ Bâi-khek". I have checked this dictionary. – Kaihsu 17:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- I just reminded myself, after some web searches, that 符 (Fú) is also a surname, but not as populous. The tones are inconsequential in transliteration from English unless the result happens to map to something particularly non-felicitous. 符埋刻 is not particularly felicitous, but projects an image of someone steeped in studies and diligent ... for me at least. – Kaihsu 20:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
I got so far as 葉文和, "leaf, script, harmony": "he who harmonizes the scripts that are myriad as leaves". Mandarin "Yè Wénhé"; Cantonese "Yip ManhoManwo" (about as close as one can get to the English in terms of pronunciation); Taiwanese "Ia̍p Bûn-hô"; Japanese "Hano Monka" or "Hano Bunka" (or written 葉ノ文和, hinting at Manyogana; latter (better) reading also hinting at 文化, culture); Korean 엽문화 "Yeop Munhwa" (better) or 섭문화 "Seop Munhwa" (hinting at 문화, "culture"). Simplified 叶文和; 17 strokes: very simple to write (the character for my surname alone is 17 strokes!). There are people actually with this name (try web search). Look up the characters at [1]. – Kaihsu 21:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- This is certainly a way to enjoy using a Chinese dictionary. Candidate surnames are 孫 Sūn, 埃 Āi, 符 Fú, and 葉 Yè. I'm thinking about non-English versions of "Michael". What about 密豪 Mìháo, a bit like Irish Mícheál? Evertype 21:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
- Interesting. Google shows a Lambert Schmithausen who has something to do with Sanskrit philosophical terminology; his name is written 史密豪生 Shìmìháoshēng. Evertype 22:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Andrew West said to me today: "I like 葉 Yè for Everson and 密豪 Mìháo for Mícheál. 葉密豪 Yè Mìháo sounds very good to me, and it's unique according to Google." That's good news... One question I do still have is the on about the identity of the Simplified character for Yè. Evertype 09:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- In a follow-up e-mail he says: "Mìháo 密豪 is the same in simplified and traditional. Yè 葉 has the ugly simplification to 叶, but if you don't like it then just keep the traditional form even in simplified Chinese -- you can do that with Unicode :-) and it's OK to ignore simplification rules for family names where the simplification simplifies to a different character (as in this case)." Evertype 09:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
| Former candidates for Michael Everson's name in Chinese | ||||
| Pinyin | Simplified | Traditional | "Meaning" | Comment |
| Sūn Mìháo | 孙密豪 | 孫密豪 | grandson secret bold | 孙/孫 sūn means 'grandson', not unlike "Everson", surname of Sun Yatsen and Sunzi; 密 mì is 'secret' as in 密码 mìmǎ 'cipher, cipher code, secret code', and 豪 háo 'bold' contains the pig-radical 豕 shǐ, an echo of eofor, ever 'boar'. |
| Fú Mìháo | 符密豪 | 符密豪 | symbol secret bold | 符 means 'symbol' and is used in compounds: fúhào 符号 'symbol, mark'; biāodiān fúhào 标点符号 'punctuation mark'; fúhé 符合 'accord with, conform to' (nice for a standardizer); fúzhòu 符咒 'Daoist charm'; 密 mì is 'secret, and 豪 háo is 'bold. |
| Fù Mìháo | 傅密豪 | 傅密豪 | teacher secret bold | 傅 is a surname denoting 'teacher'; 密 mì is 'secret, and 豪 háo is 'bold. |
| Āifúsēn | 埃符森 | 埃符森 | Egypt symbol forest | The Egypt character 埃 refers to dust fines; 土 'earth' is the radical. 埃及 āijí is 'Egypt' per se.; 符 fú is 'symbol' as noted above, and 森 sēn is a tree rising above the forest, indicating rich growth or abundance. Another reading: Dusty Sign-forest. Standard for Efferson, Everson, and Evertson. |
| Āiwénsēn | 埃文森 | 埃文森 | Egypt script forest | The Egypt character 埃 refers to dust fines; 土 'earth' is the radical. 埃及 āijí is 'Egypt' per se.; 文 wén is 'writing' of course, and 森 sēn is a tree rising above the forest, indicating rich growth or abundance. Another reading: Dusty Word-forest. Standard for Eavenson, Evanson, and Evenson. |
| Sūn Màikè | 孙迈克 | 孫邁克 | grandson step able | one standard for "Michael" |
| Sūn Màikè | 孙麦克 | 孫麥克 | grandson wheat able | mài substituted, cf. 麦克凤 màikèfēng 'microphone', 'mike' |
| Sūn Màikè | 孙麦刻 | 孫麥刻 | grandson wheat carve | kè substituted, cf. 刻字 kèzì 'carve characters on a seal' |
| Sūn Máikè | 孙埋刻 | 孫埋刻 | grandson cover carve | tone changed to mái, cf. 埋头苦干 máitóu kǔgàn 'to quietly immerse onself in hard work' |
When it was thought the name might be "Āi Wénsēn" or "Āi Fúsēn"
- The name Āi Wénsēn 埃文森 has been thought suitable. The name was drawn up in consultation with Dr Lu Qin (the chair of the IRG), and others at the January 2005 ISO/IEC JTC1/SC2/WG2 meeting in Xiamen. We rejected all of the Sūn Màikè choices in favour of a rather more appropriate name! Evertype
- I've just learned that Āiwénsēn is a standard transliteration for the names Eavenson, Evanson, and Evenson in Chinese, so I suppose it isn't suitable after all. (I learned it from this rather comprehensive page.) So I'm going to have to think about this some more. Evertype 20:30, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
- That same site gives Āifúsēn 埃弗森 as a standard transliteration for the names Efferson, Everson, and Evertson. Apparently, fú 弗 was used at least in Korea and Japan as a sight-character equivalent to the dollar sign $; it has a Kun reading doru which would suggest dollar to me; the Korean reading is bul 불. I wouldn't think a currency character appropriate for my name at all; and fú 弗 also means 'not, negative', also infelicitous, in my view.
- If fú is essential, there is a good one in 符 which means 'symbol' and is used in compounds: fúhào 符号 'symbol, mark'; biāodiān fúhào 标点符号 'punctuation mark'; fúhé 符合 'accord with, conform to' (nice for a standardizer); fúzhòu 符咒 'Daoist charm'. That's not so bad. Evertype 17:40, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
- That same site gives Āifúsēn 埃弗森 as a standard transliteration for the names Efferson, Everson, and Evertson. Apparently, fú 弗 was used at least in Korea and Japan as a sight-character equivalent to the dollar sign $; it has a Kun reading doru which would suggest dollar to me; the Korean reading is bul 불. I wouldn't think a currency character appropriate for my name at all; and fú 弗 also means 'not, negative', also infelicitous, in my view.
- I've just learned that Āiwénsēn is a standard transliteration for the names Eavenson, Evanson, and Evenson in Chinese, so I suppose it isn't suitable after all. (I learned it from this rather comprehensive page.) So I'm going to have to think about this some more. Evertype 20:30, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
When it was thought the name might be "Sūn Màikè"
- The name Sūn Màikè 孙迈克 (Traditional 孫邁克) has been thought suitable. Màikè is a standard rendering of Michael and Sūn is a family name (see Sun Tzu 孫子 (Sūnzǐ) where the Traditional, not the Simplified, character is given) which means 'grandson' – a bit like "Ever-son" I suppose, in meaning and a little bit in sound – though "ever" is more distinctive in my name than "son". Before you enshrine this forever in the Chinese Wikipedia, perhaps there could be some discussion of this?. Evertype 19:18, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)
- 'Michael' is from Hebrew Micha-el (מיכאל), 'Who is like God?'. In literary Chinese, this may be rendered 何神 (Hé Shén), and in turn Taiwanese (to which Everson has made a contribution) hô-sîn, which is a minimal pair with hô·-sîn, fly, which is all the more curious as Michael is the name of an archangel, and if he is not careful he can end up being Beelzebub. (By the way, the biblical Taiwanese transliteration for 'Michael' is Bí-ka-le̍k; but that is boring.) As for Everson, how about 永子 (Yǒngzǐ)?, but maybe 孫 is better after all. So I suggest 孫何神 (Pinyin: Sūn Héshén). -- Kaihsu 21:47, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)
- By the way, the character I have rendered above as a middle dot in hô·-sîn should actually be U+0358, which Everson helped to get into the Unicode standard. So he has enabled his minimal-pair counterpart to be expressed correctly. -- Kaihsu 22:00, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)
- Although 孙迈克 ("Michael Sun") is reasonably descriptive, the combination seems to lack "authority" (some say, stuffiness). On the plus side it projects friendliness. My 2 cents. A-giau 02:56, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- So far I don't detect consensus. Evertype 19:43, 2004 Aug 21 (UTC)
- It is your name, Michael, so you can make a decision. One option is not to adopt a name in another language/script. -- Kaihsu 12:33, 2004 Aug 22 (UTC)
- Just leave it up to Michael, may be. People need time to decide a good name for himself as well as his family. :-D -- Tomchiukc 09:59, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- I'm very interested in the question, of course. Let's consider my first name first. I see the humour, cleverness, and subtlety in 孙何神 (Traditional 孫何神) Sūn Héshén. Back-translations through the Hebrew! But I don't know how I'd feel answering to "Héshén". ("Hey! Seán!") But I'm wondering if other substitutions could be made. What about 迈刻 (Traditional 邁刻) Màikè? I guess this would mean 'engraved stride' (cf. 刻版 kèbàn 'to cut blocks for printing', 刻字 kèzì 'carve characters on a seal'); I like the "engraving" kè much better than the "gram" kè. And to continue the substitution, a different mài would seem sensible; what about 麦刻 (Traditional 麥刻) Màikè? I guess this would mean 'engraved wheat' (but cf. the use of 'wheat' phonetically in 麦克凤 màikèfēng 'microphone', 'mike'); that seems the best of the Màikè choices, to me. And a big question for me... is it permissible to change the tone? If so, how about 埋刻 (Traditional 埋刻) Máikè? I guess this would mean 'hidden engraving' which reminds me of writing system analysis (cf. 埋头苦干 máitóu kǔgàn 'to quietly immerse onself in hard work'). But these thoughts are just me playing with the dictionary. What do you think? Evertype 19:51, 2004 Oct 8 (UTC)
- Actually, it would be pronounced "huh, shun". "hey seán" would be written more like "hei shan". As for "maitou"... that allows for some pretty colourful plays on words.
- Let me try to put it in a tabular format (fun with Wiki HTML). The questions are: (1) Is it OK to substitute different characters for mài and kè? (2) Is it OK to change the tone to mái? (3) Are these names "good" with regard to "authority/stuffiness", "friendliness", authenticity, etc.? Evertype 20:35, 1 February 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, it would be pronounced "huh, shun". "hey seán" would be written more like "hei shan". As for "maitou"... that allows for some pretty colourful plays on words.
- I'm very interested in the question, of course. Let's consider my first name first. I see the humour, cleverness, and subtlety in 孙何神 (Traditional 孫何神) Sūn Héshén. Back-translations through the Hebrew! But I don't know how I'd feel answering to "Héshén". ("Hey! Seán!") But I'm wondering if other substitutions could be made. What about 迈刻 (Traditional 邁刻) Màikè? I guess this would mean 'engraved stride' (cf. 刻版 kèbàn 'to cut blocks for printing', 刻字 kèzì 'carve characters on a seal'); I like the "engraving" kè much better than the "gram" kè. And to continue the substitution, a different mài would seem sensible; what about 麦刻 (Traditional 麥刻) Màikè? I guess this would mean 'engraved wheat' (but cf. the use of 'wheat' phonetically in 麦克凤 màikèfēng 'microphone', 'mike'); that seems the best of the Màikè choices, to me. And a big question for me... is it permissible to change the tone? If so, how about 埋刻 (Traditional 埋刻) Máikè? I guess this would mean 'hidden engraving' which reminds me of writing system analysis (cf. 埋头苦干 máitóu kǔgàn 'to quietly immerse onself in hard work'). But these thoughts are just me playing with the dictionary. What do you think? Evertype 19:51, 2004 Oct 8 (UTC)
- Just leave it up to Michael, may be. People need time to decide a good name for himself as well as his family. :-D -- Tomchiukc 09:59, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- It is your name, Michael, so you can make a decision. One option is not to adopt a name in another language/script. -- Kaihsu 12:33, 2004 Aug 22 (UTC)
- So far I don't detect consensus. Evertype 19:43, 2004 Aug 21 (UTC)
- Although 孙迈克 ("Michael Sun") is reasonably descriptive, the combination seems to lack "authority" (some say, stuffiness). On the plus side it projects friendliness. My 2 cents. A-giau 02:56, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- By the way, the character I have rendered above as a middle dot in hô·-sîn should actually be U+0358, which Everson helped to get into the Unicode standard. So he has enabled his minimal-pair counterpart to be expressed correctly. -- Kaihsu 22:00, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)
- 'Michael' is from Hebrew Micha-el (מיכאל), 'Who is like God?'. In literary Chinese, this may be rendered 何神 (Hé Shén), and in turn Taiwanese (to which Everson has made a contribution) hô-sîn, which is a minimal pair with hô·-sîn, fly, which is all the more curious as Michael is the name of an archangel, and if he is not careful he can end up being Beelzebub. (By the way, the biblical Taiwanese transliteration for 'Michael' is Bí-ka-le̍k; but that is boring.) As for Everson, how about 永子 (Yǒngzǐ)?, but maybe 孫 is better after all. So I suggest 孫何神 (Pinyin: Sūn Héshén). -- Kaihsu 21:47, 2004 Aug 15 (UTC)