Talk:Noah's Ark/Archive 14

Robert Moore

I have a question please. Is the article by Robert Moore, who is not a researcher, a sufficiently qualitative source to validate a general claim like "There is no scientific evidence that Noah's Ark existed as it is described in the Bible"?

Thanks to the respondents. Theshumai (talk) 21:09, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Theshumai, Moore's work is published in a scientific journal, so I would say that makes it a reliable source. We could find many more sources if need be. The point is: even if the ark existed, it has clearly not been found. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:39, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

And in addition, what do you mean Moore is not a researcher? The article is very extensive, the result of much research, and Moore is reporting the findings of his studies. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Google Maps

Has anyone looked at Mount Ararat on Google Maps recently? There is a major shape visible on the South East slope that needs investigation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.206.176.154 (talk) 07:18, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not an investigative service I'm afraid. You'll have to find a real world body to look into that. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 09:07, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

BCE and CE vs BC and AD

Although it is an interesting academic exercise, BCE is still not the measure for dates used by the majority of people using the Julian calendar. The article and all other articles should respect the original BC and AD references and changes made should be seen as vandalism.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Deanerasmus2006 (talk • contribs)

@Deanerasmus2006: See our guide on era styles at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers#Era_style. In general, styles should stay consistent and should not be changed arbitrarily. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:00, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Very Minor Punctuation Mistake

"Research shows a literal Noah's Ark could not be practical,." The comma needs removing. I'd do it myself if the page weren't locked. 173.215.118.193 (talk) 16:31, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done Theroadislong (talk) 16:34, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Babylonian Great Flood

I included my summary of a book by Irving Finkel (2014) in the section about the Ark's geometry. This adds a second paragraph to what had been just one. Irving Finkel was already cited in this article twice, this change brings his total to three. I think this contribution should be included for those who are interested in the variety of ancient texts that are relevant to what is surely among mankind's oldest and most widely shared stories. I am a fan of the author but in no way affiliated with him or the British Museum. I also decided to capitalize the section headings in a few places. Thus, 'Ark's Geometry' instead of 'Ark's geometry' and 'Mesopotamian Precursors' instead of 'Mesopotamian precursors'. Maybe not everyone would agree with this new capitalization, but it looked better to me so I did itHimkdm (talk) 07:17, 14 February 2021 (UTC).

Thanks for your contribution. WP convention never capitalizes the second word in a section heading. I see it has been reverted already--Akrasia25 (talk) 15:29, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

"No geologic evidence of a biblical global flood"

This comment refers to problems with the following quotes:

In the historicity section: "While research shows a literal Noah's Ark could not be practical,[3] nor is there geologic evidence of a biblical global flood,[45] commentators throughout history have made attempts to demonstrate the Ark's existence."

Correspondingly in the intro: "There is no scientific evidence that Noah's Ark existed as it is described in the Bible,[3] nor is there evidence in the geologic record for the biblical global flood.[4]"

And similar comments in the Noah's Flood Genesis and Genesis flood narrative. The problem lies not in the historicity of the ark, but rather in the historicity of the flood. The claim that there is no historical candidate is plain wrong.

There's plenty of floods that most Flood myths could accurately have represented, to take a massive example, anything of similar size to the Zanclean Flood would make a good candidate, of course the Zanclean Flood is too old to survive in myth form, but I'm illustrating that a flood doesn't need to be actually global to realistically be a candidate for Noah's flood. Of course such a candidate flood would not be global as the myth claims, but to such a historical author, the area covering the mediterranean sea would be their world.--TZubiri (talk) 07:58, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

A more recent example and best candidate for inspiring Noah's flood is the possible Black Sea deluge, dated around 5000 BCE, situated near the mediterranean, and through a strait mechanism similar to the Zanclean Flood, it has been proposed as such a candidate, see following references:

1- Black Sea deluge hypothesis

"As proposed, the Early Holocene Black Sea flood scenario describes events that would have profoundly affected prehistoric settlement in eastern Europe and adjacent parts of Asia and possibly was the basis of oral history concerning Noah's flood.[3] Some archaeologists support this theory as an explanation for the lack of Neolithic sites in northern Turkey.[4][5][6] In 2003, Ryan and coauthors revised the dating of the early Holocene Noah's flood to 8400 14C years BP (possibly around 8800 calendar years BP).[7]"

2- An article from the guardian about archeological discoveries 3 years after reference 3 in the above quote: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2000/sep/14/internationalnews.archaeology

Of course there are criticisms of this theory, but these sources are stronger than the one present that claims lack of evidence. Furthermore the focus on a global flood is just glaringly obvious, I'm aware that some fringe groups like young earth creationists might propose a literal interpretation of the events in the myth, but this discussion is pretty much dead and settled. The edit I will make will thus leave these comments unaltered, but add a separate discussion about non-global historical candidates for such a flood.--TZubiri (talk) 22:48, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

The Ark and its Flood are, of course, related. But this article is about the Ark, and concentrates on that; its mentions of the Flood are, and should be, merely summary in nature. It is not the job of this article to go deep into the Flood itself. The lead, which itself is summary in nature already says "There is also no evidence of a global flood...", which carefully and specifically includes the qualifier "global", thus leaving open the probability that some other sort of real flood (i.e. non-global) probably underlies the story. I think everything you want about these ideas is already present in the "Historicity" section of this article. More detail would more naturally belong the Flood article rather than this Ark article. Feline Hymnic (talk) 10:41, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Flat no. Firstly, I, as many, searched for Noah's Ark, not noah's flood or Genesis flood narrative. This is one of those cases where a merge would be appropriate, but it is how it is. Second, the Flood article does not have this problem, so I have not raised the issue there. Thirdly, the flood article links back to this page. So, this is a very relevant place to discuss this issue.--TZubiri (talk) 19:50, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

The quote says "No geologic evidence of a biblical global flood" Not "No evidence of a large flood in the middle east" Therefor the quote is not wrong. You're arguing against a quote that you made up yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.120.207.143 (talk) 20:06, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

A Feasibility Study

I included a sentence regarding the feasibility studies which aim to answer the Ark's place in archeological history. Cited review's of John Woodmorappe's paper published in Inst. for Creation Research, 1996 and an article from the Creation/Evolution Journal from the National Center for Science Education. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Socialwebaaronlee (talk • contribs) 06:23, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

untrue

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

there is an enormous amount of proof that there was a global flood. recorded in history with many nations! 47.51.16.173 (talk) 22:18, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

and.... there is geological proof.... back by Geologist 47.51.16.173 (talk) 22:19, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Then please link a reliable source that says as such. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 23:17, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, the so-called scientific method doesn't regard any evidence we bring as reliable, becuase it contradicts the so-called scientific knowledge. There is plenty of evidence indeed, but they are blind enough to not accept that a global flood did indeed wipe out the old Earth. Sorry, dude, changing their minds is not possible as Wikipedia only gets misinformation about Noah's flood from the so-called scientists. Conta Sla 2 (talk) 18:56, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@MPants at work: Can you please provide the policy or guideline that prompted you to close this discussion? Thanks. Thinker78 (talk) 00:36, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Thinker78, WP:TPG, WP:FORUM, WP:SOAPBOX, take your pick. They all apply. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:29, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for replying, User:MPants at work Although the editor seems to have certain point of view and it looks like the thread may be a duplicate of a comment shortly above, I still am concerned about the closing of this discussion. It appears to have elements about the editing process of the article, which in my opinion should be discussed further (for example, editor says no evidence other than the scientific method is treated as reliable, to which I think there needs to be a proper response). I'm not a big fan of censoring talk pages, or closing discussions, but rather I am of the opinion that discussions should be let flow freely, as much as possible. In this situation, a kind reminder to the editors involved that there is another thread discussing the issue above would be called for.--Thinker78 (talk) 17:41, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Thinker78, Thank you for dragging this thread out. It's exactly what we needed from a thread in which a random IP and an editor both vent their spleens about WP's policies and make hollow claims about evidence they seem to have conveniently forgotten to include.

And yes, that preceding sentence was entirely sarcastic. You may also note that sharing your opinions on our talk page guidelines is, itself not an appropriate subject of discussion for this page. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:45, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

MPants Thanks for your input. The reason I chose to write here instead of telling you in your talk page is for the editors involved to be aware of the workings behind the closing of the discussion, so they don't think it was just a haphazard exercise of censorship on a whim just because you don't agree with their point of view. I believe in transparency and we should strive to be as professional as possible in our decisions when editing and enforcing rules, policies and guidelines. Too many people believe Wikipedia is biased and prone to censorship and when I can I try to show that's not always the case. Kind regards, Thinker78 (talk) 19:22, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

How many kilometres travelled Noah ark in ocean

How many kilometres travelled Noah ark in ocean 2401:4900:4FF5:772A:860E:EA9C:58E5:CCAB (talk) 14:39, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

None. If you read the second paragraph in the lead, you will see that the story is almost certainly fiction. Looking for precise figures from it is a pointless activity. HiLo48 (talk) 22:18, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Mesopotamian models

There are problems with this claim

So then it’s been proposed that the biblical story is a copy or based from the Sumerian one. But, what about the stories from other parts of the world? The Hawaiian myth, for example, already existed when Christian missionaries arrived in Hawaii in late 18thcentury CE! So when and how did the Hawaiian copy the story from the Sumerian?

In the Hawaiian group, there are several legends of the flood. One legend relates that in the time of Nuu, or Nana-nuu the flood came upon the earth and destroyed all living beings.

Nuu, by command of his god, built a large vessel with a house on top of it, which was called the royal vessel, in which he and his family, consisting of his wife, Lilinoe, his 3 sons and their wives, were saved. When the flood subsided, the 3 gods (Kane, Ku, and Lono) entered the vessel of Nuu, and told him to go out.

He did so, and found himself on the top of Mauna Kea (the highest mountain on the island of Hawaii). He named a cave there after his wife and it remains there to this day. Another version of the legend says that Nuu landed and dwelt in Kahiki-honua-kele, a large and extensive country. Nuu left the vessel in the evening of the day and took with him a pig, coconuts, and awa (some kind of juice) as an offering to the god Kane.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.164.84.136 (talk) 08:01, 21 January 2022 (UTC) 

The prevalence of such are discussed at Flood myth. If you have a reliable source about the Hawaii flood myth, its probably best discussed there. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 17:48, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

The Hawaiian stories are probably totally independent of the Sumerian story. The Hawaiian stories are not consistent, but do any of them include him preserving all the different types of animals etc? Hawaii is very volcanic and very seismically active, so its quite possible that these stories reflect actual events where an individual island or bay was hit by a tsunami, such as what happened in the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami. These Hawaiian stories are perhaps therefore equivalent to the Black Sea deluge hypothesis. Wdford (talk) 20:39, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

No storys or legends are completly consistent so thats a weak argument its like saying difrent storys about the same event are talking about diffrent events but there is no way of knowing that or to come to such an conclusion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.164.84.136 (talk) 13:34, 22 January 2022 (UTC) Even in islam you will find inconsistinces versus the jewish torah one — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.164.84.136 (talk) 12:56, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Forgot to add this

A Banks Islands flood story tells of a man who builds a giant canoe, takes his family and island animals aboard, then floats away never to return when there is a great flood.

A Fijian flood myth relates that Ndengei, the serpent god of the Kauvandra mountain on Viti Levu, declares war on the people after his pet bird is killed. The local carpenters build a fort for protection, but when a giant tree growing beside the fort is uprooted a flood ensues, the fort collapses, and the carpenters are captured and exiled. A similar story is told in Tonga, the Lau islands and Dobu Island in PNG, where it seems to function as an etiology for the spread of boat building skills, while more distantly related myths about floods and a great tree are told by Hawaiians and Maoris. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.164.84.136 (talk) 13:17, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Minor inconsistencies could be due to different oral traditions diverging slightly over time. But the part about all the animals, two by two - that is the fundamental basis of the Noah story. Any other "similar" legend about a family on a raft is clearly not related, if it does not mention preserving all those animals. The Sumerian legend of Utnapishtim mentions all the animals etc – ergo it's directly related. Ditto the legend of Atra-Hasis. The Israelites were in exile in Babylon when they wrote down all these "Israelite" myths, so no big surprise that there were close similarities. The infant Moses in the basket of reeds is another direct example. However the older Hawaiian flood story says only that a great flood covered all of the islands except the top of the highest peak, and that two people survived up there. The story of Nu’u ends on the same mountain, so quite probably this version is the original (possibly true) story with a bit of Christian missionary influence added on. However they didn't bother to add huge numbers of animals to the raft, probably because that was clearly a ridiculous concept. The Banks Island guy probably took a few animals along for food - cannery had not yet been invented. PS: There is no mention of any giant trees in the myths of Noah, Utnapishtim or Atra-Hasis. The Sumerians lived on the banks of a giant river in a very flat flood plain, and they knew all about seasonal floods. There is geological evidence of numerous flood events, as there is in most river flood plains. People who live on islands on the Ring of Fire know all about tsunamis. They had another one in Tonga not too long ago. Wdford (talk) 13:51, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

"There is geological evidence of numerous flood events" Yes, but the Sumerian flood myth seems connected to the cold and wet period known as the Piora Oscillation, and the decline or end of the Uruk period. Dimadick (talk) 14:54, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I dont think you get my point so i will use another more modern example Many years ago President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas, and the entire event was captured on video tape. There were hundreds of eyewitnesses. The tapes were watched over and over again. Yet, in the midst of such a robust eyewitness record, people still argue to this day about what they saw and what actually happened. Was it a lone shooter or an elaborate conspiracy? So the event is still interpreted in a variety of ways. So what you are claiming here is since we do not have video evidence or other forms of evidence we must then conclude these storys are seperate from another or perhaps the claim of a such event even didnt take place' Same thing happened with germans just after ww2, even if they personally saw alot of what happened you had people that had various versions of what they saw you even had people denying that there was ever happening any crime against jews Yet you still insist that this must be diffrent events because there are more than minor inconsistentencys??? Thats called bias The claim here i find subjective and based on bias is the claim that Noah story is based on Mesoptanian orgins You then have to ignore world history and people migration and the numerous flood storys all over the world — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.164.84.136 (talk) 14:40, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

"There were hundreds of eyewitnesses." Eyewitness memory is notoriously unreliable. "details of unpleasant emotional events are recalled poorly compared to neutral events. States of high emotional arousal, which occur during a stressful or traumatic event, lead to less efficient memory processing." Dimadick (talk) 14:59, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Again not getting the point It doesnt matter if the eyewitnesses is notoriously unreliable thats not the point here The point here is if they are talking about largley the same things and all the myths about floods are generally speaking about the same things its alot of times about goods, and its alot of times about a flood My suggestion woud be perhaps all the flood myths come from the same source at one time in human history but thats specualation and i have no evidence of this claim but i can say that the claim that the noah story is based on the Mesoptanian one, is on very shaky ground on closer inspection at least when you check all the numerous flood myths and people migration in regards to world history. It simply does not fit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.164.84.136 (talk) 15:21, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Please stop hypothesizing, this page isn't a forum for discussion of the topic. Bring some academic sources discussing flood myths. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 15:57, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

This topic/section on the wikipedia page is called Talk

theres a reason i posted it here and not in the article itself so i can make all the hypothesizing in the talk page i want otherwise there woud be no point in the talk page where such discussion woud take place woud it? What youre asking me to do is not raising critical objection in the talk page when i see a critical issue in the main aricle, then then whats the point in having a talk page at all? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.164.84.136 (talk) 16:33, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

The point of the talk page is to discuss the article, not the subject. See WP:FORUM which says "bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles; they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article,". You're discussing the topic of flood myths, find academic sources which back your position. Doug Weller talk 16:48, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Well i did suggest how to improve the article not just a discussion about flood myths but i agree it can be seen as me talking just about the subject matter because i was also responding to other users If youre asking me about accedmic sources thats impossible to provide theres no accedemic sources that have proven the suggestion i came with as far as i know i did say it was my suggestion was only a speculation If you mean if i can provide documentation on the other flod myths itself then i can provide those but thats not what youre asking for here Annyway, going to stop suggesting improvements and responding to other users — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.164.84.136 (talk) 17:11, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Modern Day Proof Of The Flood

Where could one find Modern Day Proof of The Floods existence 98.211.58.84 (talk) 22:39, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Nowhere. There is none. HiLo48 (talk) 22:48, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

@HiLo48: How do you know that? -- Python Drink (talk) 16:32, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

They have found proof of a world wide flooding, But it took place 9,600 bc. they have the wroung date to start with. But there is still the problem with DNA testing. They cant prove all the animals and people's DNA stem from Noah's ark. 66.181.121.170 (talk) 14:11, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is WP:NOTAFORUM. Unless someone has concrete suggestions on how to improve this article, this conversation is pointless. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 20:53, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

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