Talk:Passover/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Passover is not its official name

Chag HaMatzot is the official name. It is called that in the Torah, in the Haggadah, and in all law books. 83.130.39.20 (talk) 09:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Just because it is חג המצות (the holiday of matzahs) does not mean that it is not also called פסח. Lots of holidays in Judaism have multiple names. -Shini —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.54.213.67 (talk) 23:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

the Hebrew article has a nice section on the various names of holiday. I have no objection to a similar section being added to this article. Jon513 (talk) 00:05, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Originally Pesach was the offering sacrificed shortly before sunset on the 14th day of Nissan, and Chag Ha-Matzot was the feast celebrated in the following 7 days, starting from the fool moon of Nissan (i.e. 15th-21th of Nissan). This is how these occasions are described in Leviticus 23:4-8. In the past 2,000 years or so, these two occasions are celebrated as one holiday (without offering a sacrificed lamb, of course), with both names referring to it equally. The name Pesach is by far more popular. DrorK (talk) 07:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

The use of the term "official name" is misleading and out of context with Jewish culture. The Torah often uses multiple names for various things and people; the festivals are no exception. Thus, the sacrifice offered whenever there was a Temple was called "pesach." The festival was called by the same name, i.e. "the festival when the pesach sacrifice is brought." It was equally called chag ha-matzoth, "the festival when matzah is eaten." All the same thing. The first paragraph of this article must be amended to read "Passover is a Samaritan holiday {details here as required} and also a seven-day Jewish festival, on whose first day a sacrifice of a yearling sheep or goat was offered in the Temple."--Ykvweiss (talk) 11:23, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Quick fix.

According to http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm passover begins on the 15th of Nisan, not the 14th. Bwe45 (talk) 17:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Many dictionaries and encyclopedias state that it starts on the *14th*: http://onelook.com/?w=passover&loc=scworef&scwo=1&ls=a Also, with the side bar of the article stating that it ends on the 21st/22nd day, a length of only 6/7 rather than 7/8 days is implied. 24.34.107.25 (talk) 04:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

minor change to dishes section

I changed "orthodox" to observant families having separate dishes. My experience growing up Conservative was separate dishes was/is a norm in the Conservative community as well. And this is my first contribution to the wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atsolomon42 (talk • contribs) 03:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

2008 date

It would be nice to get a bit of elaboration about how the date is set, because this year the full moon (18:40 GMT on 3/21) closely follows the vernal equinox (5:48 GMT on 3/20). For example the entry on the Hebrew calendar suggests that Passover, the 14th of Nisan, falls on the first full moon after the vernal equinox, but apparently the calendar is a little bit more complicated than that ;) In fact Easter follows two different full moons this year in the Western and Eastern Christian celebrations. So this year should highlight details of the history of many religious congregations. Wnt (talk) 14:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Pesach and the Sabbath

This year (5768, corresponding to the year 2008), Passover begins on a Saturday night. On years like these, the final search for Hametz, traditionally performed on 14 Nissan, conflicts with the Sabbath. On such years, should the search be performed on Friday, 13 Nissan, one day earlier? Pikalax 22:35, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

There is a nice summary here (ou.org). Jon513 (talk) 23:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Joke in first paragraph

Please note last line of the first paragraph: ... and so Passover must be celebrated in the spring. Runescape is traditionally played during this time.

Motsser Motsser (talk) 18:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Bread 'Taken'

I have ammended the caption to include the traditional verb for 'taking' bread at Pesach. --Static sprinter (talk) 20:20, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

New External Link

How about this new external link http://www.star-k.org/kashrus/kk-passover-kashering.htm It is all about Passover on the Star-K website. (Yoilish (talk) 20:20, 8 July 2008 (UTC))

This link is very important as the Star-K website provides detailed information not found anywhere else to consumers worldwide!!! Yolch (talk) 23:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

The Star-K website provides very useful information on a wide range of topics relating to keeping Kosher all year-round and on Passover, as well as other areas of Halacha. The suggested link relates to Kashering utensils for Passover (i.e. making utensils that have been used year-round suitable for Passover use). I think it would be useful to include the link.

Danielb613 (talk) 17:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Gibberish about Easter

The discussion about Easter in the section "influence on Other Religions" is sheer gibberish. It is simply not the case that "whereas Western Easter is the Sunday one to seven days after March 21, Orthodox Easter is the Sunday eight to fourteen days after March 21." Nor is it the case that Easter is called Passover in languages other than English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.52.191 (talk) 22:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I took out the one sentence that misdates Easter. Now, dear IP, please go to the Easter page and look along the left-hand side where it says "languages". Now, click on some of the links. Here's what you'll find. Spanish: Pascua. Danish: Påske. French: Pâques. Italian: Pasqua. Latin: Pascha. Dutch: Pasen. Norwegian: Påske. Russian: Пасха. Greek: Πάσχα. Portuguese: Páscoa. Finnish: Pääsiäinen. Swedish: Påsk. Tagalog: Pasko ng Pagkabuhay. The notable exception is German Ostern. These words are all obviously derived from the Hebrew פסח or Pesach. Anything else you need to know? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 01:31, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Date of Passover confusion

87.194.83.80 (talk) 23:00, 20 April 2009 (UTC) The introductory para says 14th Nissan, the Dates paragraph says 15th. The latter is correct.

This really, really needs to be formally addressed in this article. To continually ignore historical evidences and different times of observances in order to dogmatically assert certain traditions is not what Wikipedia is for.

There are clearly differences of opinion when the date should be. There is the Biblical record, (and there are what seem to be contradictions within it), and there are traditions, among Christians, Jews, Karaites, and ancient Israel. These all need to be pointed out rather than deleted when they are added.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Elikakohen (talk • contribs) 19:13, 12 April 2010

Got any sources? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 20:29, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Date of Passover clarification

There are some seemingly inconsistent dates for Passover in Hebrew Scripture, as well as Jewish Halacha and these differing dates should be noted in this article.

The Works of Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 3 Chapter 10.5

The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread; But on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them.

Ex. 12:6 'You shall keep it until the fourteenth day of the same month, then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to kill it at twilight.

Leviticus 23:5 'In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the LORD'S Passover.

Numbers 9:2-3 "Now, let the sons of Israel observe the Passover at its appointed time. "On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight, you shall observe it at its appointed time; you shall observe it according to all its statutes and according to all its ordinances."

--Elika KohenElikakohen (talk • contribs) —Preceding undated comment added 06:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC).

Original research under "Paschal month"

There is a subsection "Paschal month" which consists entirely of neopagan speculation:

Paschal month

The Germanic goddess Ēostre (also Ēastre and Old High German Ôstarâ), whose Anglo-Saxon month, Ēostur-monath, has given its name to the Christian festival of Easter, is attested only by Bede, in his 8th century work De temporum ratione. He states that Ēostur-monath was the equivalent to the month of April, and that feasts held in her honor during Ēostur-monath had died out by the time of his writing, replaced by the "Paschal month".

Wikipedia, of course, is rife with this kind of thing. The subsection consists entirely of speculation based on a recitation of Old English month names in a book by the medieval scholar Bede (who was not himself given to speculation). The Old English name for April was Eoster-monath ("Easter-month"), and this has led to negopagan speculation as to the existence of a "Germanic goddess Ēostre" even though there is no historical attestation of a "Germanic goddess Ēostre" anywhere. Since the term "Easter-month" is related to the compass direction "East," the meaning of "Ēostre" could just as easily refer to the vernal equinox or to dawn generally. There may be a link to a Proto-Indo-European religious vocabulary reconstructed by historical linguists; however, the more one learns about such things, the less comfortable one feels making definitive statements such as those in the "Paschal month" subsection of this article. Nobody knows what "Eoster-monath" meant. After all, the name for February was "Sol-monath," which means "Mud-month" and the name for August was "Weod-monath" which means "Weed-month" (perhaps originally "Fern-month"), so there is no requirement that Old English month names have esoteric neopagan meanings.

Since this subsection consists entirely of original research/speculation and also has nothing to do with the subject of the article (which is Passover rather than Easter), there is no reason for including it. Likewise, the illustration (Ostara (1884) by Johannes Gehrts: "The goddess flies through the heavens surrounded by Roman-inspired putti, beams of light, and animals. Germanic people look up at the goddess from the realm below.") has nothing to do with the article. The more I think about it, the more more out of place it seems to be.

-- Bob (Bob99 (talk) 22:00, 19 June 2009 (UTC))

Unleavened Bread

As I read the story, the reason the Israelites ate unleavened bread not because the bread didn'y have time rise, but for the same reason they were told to eat with "...cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand." (Exodus 12:11) The way the passage is worded, it seems that it was happenstance that the bread didn't have time to rise, when in context, God ordered them not to use Yeast, because they needed to be ready to leave very quickly. --New Spartacus (talk) 04:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Your point is?--Caspian blue 04:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

That the bread didn't have time to rise is also explicitly referenced to in the text (exodus 12:39). Jon513 (talk) 06:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

\

It seems highly suspect that so much material on this page is taken from the Christian Bible. Especially the Christian term (used as an acronym on the page?) "Yaweh." The refusal to use the "name" of God in this citation is also unsupported and unexplained. This material should be edited, revised or omitted from this page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.181.248.92 (talk) 21:32, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Dispute Concerning the Correct Date of the Passover Meal

Hi, I thought I'd add a section about the correct date the first passover was observed on, since it quite clear from the scriptures describing this event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.34.153 (talk) 08:39, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

It may be "clear" to you from Scriptures, but Jews rely on the Talmudic explanation (the Oral Torah) to determine when and how we do things (the halakha or Jewish law). I deleted this section per WP:NOR. Yoninah (talk) 13:32, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Well one would think the basic original scriptures would override someone else's opinion, wouldn't you say, especially when it contradicts it? Do you take Moses's word for it, or someone elses? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.34.153 (talk) 09:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

You are assuming that your ability to interpret and correctly understand the scripture supersedes that of all of the Talmudists and poseks who have commented on this in the last several centuries. This seems like a rather bold assumption. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 17:00, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

If a person is a Samaritan, then he would subscribe to the literal interpretation of the Scriptures alone. That is to say, he would eat cold food on Shabbat morning, since the Scripture states, "You shall not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day" (Exodus 35:3). But if he is a Torah-observant Jew, then he would rely on the Talmudic interpretation of the Scriptures. In the case of Shabbat, he would follow the laws of cooking on Shabbat which tell him to leave a pot on a covered flame so he will have hot food on Shabbat morning. The same goes for the "correct" date of the Passover Seder, which the Talmud affirms is 15 Nisan. Yoninah (talk) 20:22, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a source that says Samaritans celebrate Passover on 14 Nisan? If so, bring it here and perhaps others will support including it in the article. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 00:06, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Steven, there is no "dispute" at all. Pesach is celebrated on the 15th of Nisan no matter who you are. This IP user's assertion is based on a cursory reading of the verses which seems to confuse many casual readers. The Korban Pesach was offered on the afternoon of the 14th and eaten that night — meaning the 15th of Nisan. End of discussion. A few years ago, I spent a lot of time enlightening a different IP user who thought there were two holidays — "Pesach", which was held on the 14th of Nisan, and the "Feast of Matzos", which was held on 15-21 Nisan. Turns out he was reading the holiday "Pesach" into the Bible's description of the korban Pesach (which the Bible refers to as "the Pesach"). Let's just drop it and go make Pesach :). Yoninah (talk) 11:58, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Obeying the Talmud could be considered disobeying God and obeying man's law. Day starting at sunset is Talmud not Torah so it could be open for debate what was meant originally and in fact not everyone considers in to start 15th my feast calendar using Hebrew Calendar dates says Passover 1/14--69.146.108.94 (talk) 15:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Why Passover and not Pessah ?

The name in Judaism in Pessah. I don't know what Passover is, I think it is used only in the USA. The name of the article should be Pessah as used by all Jews around the world. 212.235.64.155 (talk) 10:21, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Passover vs Passover (Christian holiday)

See discussion at Talk:Passover (Christian holiday)#Merge with Passover. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 06:53, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

What precisely is that spiel about Easter in aid of?

I think that the subject line speaks for itself. How does knowing something about the only tangentially related Easter contribute to an understanding of Pesach? TBH, it smacks of proselytizing to me. Lemikam (talk) 07:38, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I agree. This section, which ostensibly describes the influence of Passover beyond Jewish practice, has become a platform for Christian missionizing, in violation of WP:NOTSOAPBOX. I deleted it [1], and it was put back the next day [2]. Perhaps we should bring this up for consensus. Yoninah (talk) 18:43, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Well the section is pretty terrible as it is, full of inaccuracies (Only three of the Christian gospels say that the last supper was a Passover seder. John claims it was the night before.) and unreliable sources (like this and this). Also, nothing in the sources cited supports the claim that "Easter's rituals and symbolism derive from a fusion of Jewish Passover traditions with pagan celebrations of spring." I'm hard pressed to think of anything having to do with Easter that seems to come from Passover. (Egg on the seder plate? Pretty thin.) I'm wiping out the section again and we'll see what happens next.

My beef is that it has nothing to do with Passover. I could absolutely foresee a little bit about Passover in an Easter article, but putting a thing about Easter in a Passover article is akin to putting a thing about bloody marys in an article about tomatoes. You might need to know about tomatoes (or their juice) to understand what a bloody mary is, but you don't need to know about bloody marys to know what a tomato is. Lemikam (talk) 21:58, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I am not a Christian, let alone a Christian missionary, but I created the "Easter" section because it seemed to be the most notable example of Passover's "influence." It's certainly more notable than the other example of Passover's influence in the article, the "religious sermons, prayers, and songs -- including spirituals (what used to be called "Negro Spirituals"), within the American African-American community." (Not sure if all of these are directly influenced by Passover, so much as they're influenced by the stories in the Book of Exodus that also inspired this holiday.) The section seems to have been given a more evangelical Christian tone later. My apologies for the Easter section's inaccuracies and problems--I am not the most knowledgeable person about Christian holidays. But I still think there's a connection between Easter and Passover. According to what I read, the Christian POV is that Jesus' crucifixion was parallel to the sacrifice of the Paschal lamb in the Holy Temple. The quotes about the similarities between Passover and Easter were largely copied from the article about Easter--if there are problems in that article, they should be fixed by someone who knows more about the history of the holidays. --AFriedman (talk) 17:26, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Seven vs eight days

This discussion applies to all jewish holidays, not just passover. (The sentence about the "Sages" is also peculiar.) It should probably be incorporated in an article on jewish holidays or jewish calendar (and may already be) and abbreviated here.--Sjsilverman (talk) 23:20, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Passover(8 letters), Hanukkah(8)/Chanukah(8), shemonah(8), and gematria(8)

Whether you spell it Hanukkah(8) or Chanukah(8), it is an eight-letter-name for an eight-day(8) festival(8), as is Passover(8). The Hebrew word for the number eight is shemonah(8). Simply counting the number of letters in a word/name/phrase is 'Step 1' of gematria(8). - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 64.136.26.235 (talk) 18:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Considering that one of two of those spellings aren't even the phonetics of the original language name, let alone the alphabet, I don't see the relevance. It certainly isn't an example of gematria, which would be done with the Hebrew letters. Pesach has three, and Chanukah has four. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 18:36, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Y'shua (Jesus) was crucified on the 1st full day of Passover on Fri. April 7, 30 AD

Every learned Judeo-Christian scholar knows that there is a historical connection between Jesus (Y'shua) and Passover. Jesus' Last Supper was a Passover Seder, he was put on trial that night and into the morning, and he was crucified on the first full day of Passover. The crucifixion probably took place on Friday April 7, 30 AD (7/4/782 Roman Calendar). The symbolism of the shedding of Jesus' blood is most important, especially considering that he was born on April 17, 6 BC (17/4/747 AUC), therefore, making him an Aries the Ram (baby rams are lambs) and symbolically for Christians, the "Lamb of God". - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 64.136.26.235 (talk) 18:45, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Brad. please review WP:NOTFORUM. What are you on about and what sort of changes are you interested in making to the article? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 19:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Pants

"Following this, a sing-a-long ensues that consists of many cheerful and fun Hebrew songs. This part of the celebration is a reward for children who have stayed awake through the whole Seder."

This is utter bullshit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.34.46.111 (talk • contribs) 01:32, 30 October 2008

"See also" link

Yesterday Firemute (talk · contribs) added a "see also" link to this article to Lord's supper. Since that link is a redirect to Eucharist, and since there's nothing in either article mentioning the other, I reverted it.

Today Firemute replaced the link, this time directly to "Eucharist" with the following edit summary "It most certainly is related. Lord's Supper/Eucharist. Adding a link is not defiling your Jewish article with Christianization. Inevitably those investigating the Lord's supper will look into Passover, the link directs back to appropriate article."

Firemute, no one has accused you of "defiling" the article with "Christianization"; I don't know to whom the pronoun "your" is meant to refer when you call it "your Jewish article," but I can assure you this article is not the property of any particular user; and it's not really a "Jewish article;" it's an encyclopedia article about a subject related to Judaism. Furthermore if you make an edit to an article and are reverted, the most productive thing to do is go to the talk page, not revert back to your preferred verseion with a snarky edit summary. Since you didn't do that, I have. I'll notify both you and the relevant project (WP:Judaism) and we'll see what we can work out. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 19:43, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I totally agree, and I have again removed the link in the hope that this hot-tempered user will engage in a discussion here (or alternatively earn himself a place on WP:LAME).

The principle of least astonishment applies here. The average reader will not see the connection between Passover and the Eucharist unless some sort of contextual information is provided. That makes this link very much unsuitable for the "see also" section. It seems to be the case where we ought to apply moderation, as advised on WP:SEEALSO. JFW | T@lk 20:38, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not an average reader, and I also do not see a reason to have that link. Even more so, I think it is out of place. Debresser (talk) 21:48, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

The "snarky" comment came from reading the stuff about the history of this article with regard to it's association with Passover (Christian Holiday). Anybody with a clue about the history of Passover knows that Christ, himself a Jew, instituted the Lord's Supper on it, the evening of the day, and was crucified on the day itself. It appeared to me, based on the edit history, that any mention of Christ in history pertaining to Passover, in this article will get edited out, and possibly told to dump any such information in the Passover (Christian Holiday) section. The Passover (Christian Holiday) being about this bizarre keeping of Passover within the Christian community, with no relevant discussion of the Lord's supper itself. I figured I would respect that, and not contribute to adding such information to the article, but at least direct people to an article on the Lord's Supper itself. However, even this immediately gets edited out, stating it is not related. And here we have a chorus of Jewish editors all in agreement that no such thing should be in the article. On subsequent review of the Lord's Supper article, you are correct that it does not mention the history of the institution, which surprised me. Did I get frustrated, yes, and I apologize for that, the comment was an expression of frustration when I thought I was being respectful of those controlling the article. But in my opinion, this article unequivocally represents a Jewish POV only. I'm sure you will disagree, and I will leave it alone. You will not have a revert war on your hands. I'm sorry you had to resort to calling me "hot-tempered" and "Lame" right at the start.Firemute (talk) 23:15, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

If you knew before you made your edit that there were other editors who would be likely to dispute it, that would have been an excellent reason to come to the talk page first. Speculating on the religious affiliation of those who disagree with you and assuming that it explains their position in an editing dispute will not do anything to lessen friction between you and other editors. "Hot-tempered" may be slightly ad hominem, but hardly a stretch based upon your edit summary and your comments here. WP:LAME is an essay about "Lame edit wars," not an attack on an editor. Finally, it seems to me that claiming this article has a Jewish POV is a little like saying that Ramadan has a Muslim POV. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 23:50, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Your points are all well made, with one exception. If the Christian faith had some of its most important, seminal events on Ramadan. And, if any discussion or reference to this was assiduously removed from such an article, it would indeed be Muslim only POV. The point was made that "The average reader will not see the connection between Passover and the Eucharist unless some sort of contextual information is provided. That makes this link very much unsuitable for the "see also" section." Would such contextual information be allowed here?Firemute (talk) 00:31, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

After browsing a number of articles related to Judaism that are relevant to Christianity in some way, even if only historically, I am surprised at how many did not have some indication of that relevance. A simple sentence indicating that a connection exists with a link to the relevant Christian topic or interpretation would be sufficient for a reader unfamiliar with the topic and would not Christianize the page. In some cases, a simple addition in the See Also section would be sufficient. I also noticed from the Discussion pages that indicating such connections, even in the most minimal and benign manner, is sometimes unwelcome. If it were a Jewish encyclopedia, this would be legitimate, but not for a general-purpose encyclopedia. As it stands, somebody without a background in Judaism and Christianity would be dis-serviced reading a page about a topic that is Jewish but is connected, however tangentially, to the religious beliefs of a billion (or two) non-Jews. Personally, I stay out of individual instances and am only making this general comment. As a non-Jewish non-Christian with an interest in Judaism, my purposes are served with these articles. And if I happen to have an academic interest in the connections to Christianity, I know people who I can ask. But how does it reflect on a general-purpose encyclopedia that for a subset of pages, a connection relevant to a billion people is frequently neglected or purged, and that I have to resort to asking an expert?

Word of advice for Firemute: There's no need for the tone expressed in your description of your 28 February 2011 edit. FYI, Christianization of Wikipedia articles related to Judaism is a pernicious issue.142.163.131.51 (talk) 09:27, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Apparently my apology is not considered genuine so I will say explicitly that I agree that the tone I expressed was inappropriate and non-productive. The way I approached this was out of line.Firemute (talk) 12:28, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

(←) The concept is more closely related to Passover Seder, which covers the topic very well. JFW | T@lk 18:16, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

WP:EN and WP:PSTS

I changed a few Hebrew words to English and put Hebrew behind in (italics) per WP:EN, also Bible verses pulled from refs into brackets - as they aren't references. Sorry, seems the case in best articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:34, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Key terms such as korban cannot be swapped out for English approximations that may be misleading—such as "sacrifice" or "offering". This edit in effect makes generic what is specifically Jewish. Terms such as "sacrifice" or "offering" are merely loose translations that may be applicable to a wide variety of religions carrying out superficially similar practices. Bus stop (talk) 14:28, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

The date of the passover

Does the passover begin in the 14th day of Nisan, or the 15th day of Nisan? This article says the one in the sidebar

• Begins: 14th day of Nisan

and both in the "Date and duration" section

• Passover begins on the 15th day of the month of Nisan, ...
• Passover is a spring festival, so the 14th day of Nisan begins on the night of a full moon after the northern vernal equinox")

Well, perhaps I just read the second quote as implying both; perhaps it's just half a fact and we're meant to understand that passover begins the next sunset after the first night of the full moon after the March equinox. Still, I'm confused about when passover starts on a standard Jewish reckoning.

Exceeding thanks. Run to the hills, cos the end of the world is soon! (talk) 02:13, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

"a spring lamb"?

Yoninah, sorry reverted your changes to the lead. Among them "a spring lamb" doesn't seem to be well documented, and in mainstream WP:RS sources the term "Festival of unleavened bread" is called "Festival of unleavened bread." In ictu oculi (talk) 09:52, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Reversion

There have been a number of incorrect changes to this article (?vandalism). I have attempted to correct them, but it really needs a revert, which I don't know how to do Captdoc (talk) 13:13, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

The date Passover begins in the Hebrew calendar

In the present version of the article, the sidebar asserts that Passover begins on the 14th day of Nisan, while the section "Date and duration" in the body of the article says the first day is the 15th day of Nisan, followed by some discussion based on Biblical interpretation that seems to be original research. This was discussed on this talk page a couple of months ago; that discussion has been archived here. Keeping in mind that a "day" in the Hebrew calendar begins at sunset, the first day of Passover as celebrated in modern mainstream Judaism is the 15th day of Nisan. See for example [3], [4], [5], and [6]. The 14th day of Nisan is designated in mainstream Judaism as "the day before Passover" [7]. I will edit the article accordingly. Mathew5000 (talk) 01:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I asked about this earlier this year, but no-one answered me before I was archived. I appreciate it when articles are internally consistent and factual. Run to the hills, cos the end of the world is soon! (talk) 10:04, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Main Page appearance in danger

This article is in danger of being omitted from Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries this year if the {{original research}} maintenance tag is still on there come April 6. There are only about 20 hours to resolve this! It would be rather embarrassing if we were not able to include a major Jewish holiday due to article issues. Thanks. —howcheng {chat} 16:12, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

After a moderately thorough perusal of the internet, I cannot find any source that backs up what was stated that would be considered reliable. The only ones who went in depth were individual Jewish bloggers, and the organizations just say what date it will be on. With the information in the problem paragraph not being critical to the article, I am of the opinion that we should drop it to get on the mainpage. We can always do more thorough research when we have more than a scant few hours time. Shirudo talk 06:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

I went and removed that last paragraph. —howcheng {chat} 16:55, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Ashkenazi-centric

This article doesn't mention the different practices by Sephardic or Mizraic Jews, it's rather Ashkenazi-centric.Gymnophoria (talk) 13:23, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

The last supper

The article says that the last supper is believed to be a passover seder. But this is only true for the synoptic gospels (Luke, John, Mark). In John (see John 13) the last supper clearly takes place before the first day of passover. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.225.172.135 (talk) 13:35, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Messianic Judaism vs Hebrew Christianity

Messianic Judaism is not the same thing has Hebrew Christianity. Please do not continue to make this change. It is not your's to decide whether Messianic Jews (who consider themselves to be Jews) are actually Jews or not. Nor is it appropriate for you to confuse terms when there is a clear distinction. ReformedArsenal (talk) 19:21, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

"passing over" vs. "hovering"

The argument that the meaning of psh may not be "to pass over; skip, omit" but "to hover, guarding" is interesting, I can see there is a lengthy theological debate in it as well, regarding the nature of monotheism, i.e. was God conceived as identical with the destroying angel (sort of like God hiding the righteous under his throne to spare them from his wrath), or did he send the destroying angel as a sort of subordinate agent, whom he then had to keep from messing up by turning him away from the houses he wanted him to skip. The early YHWH seems to be able to split himself into several personages, much like his visit to Abraham in the form of three men, so I am sure a lot of interesting stuff about the early history of monotheism could be attached to this discussion.

But, in spite of the argument being presented here with biblical citations for reference, it is not attributed to anybody, so we don't know if it is original research. I am confident that this argument exists and could be dug from the Talmud or something, but at the moment the reference is lacking. According to Strong, the root simply means "to jump, skip, limp, be lame", nothing about hovering or guarding, so the burden of providing evidence that the verb may have another sense based on usage in Isaiah has not been met in the current revision. --dab (𒁳) 15:32, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Passover start date

All you have to do is look at a Jewish Calendar (a real one, not a Gregorian overlay) to know that Passover starts at sunset on 15 Nisan. Some Christian denominations, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, observe their equivalent of Passover on 14 Nisan, but the Jewish Passover is now and has always been 15 Nisan.

Reminder: The Jewish day is sunset to sunset, not sunrise to sunrise or midnight to midnight. What most of the world calls Friday evening is Saturday evening on the Jewish Calendar; what most of the world calls Friday night is Saturday night; Saturday morning and Saturday afternoon are the same; and then what the rest of the world calls Saturday evening and Saturday night, are Sunday evening and Sunday night on the Jewish calendar.

I have recently removed some in-article discussion regarding the date of the start of Passover. It has been noted as both the 14th and 15th of Nisan. Clarification by those with more knowledge is needed.

Kaygrub (talk) 12:17, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Samaritan Note

Someone has vandalised the note section in regard to Samaritan practice on the day preceding Erev Pessach. Samaritans still perform the traditional sacrifice of lambs, not cows! 69.181.62.103 (talk) 08:36, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Knew to pass over?

The intro says that God only knew to pass over houses upon seeing the blood but the reference doesn't support that. Seems like it should be rephrased. Minor issue I know. 114.35.25.165 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:13, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistent start date

The article text says Passover starts on 14 Nisan, but the sidebar says 15 Nisan. I see above there was previously discussion in the article on which date was correct. Perhaps we need to have it back in? As of now it's clearly inconsistent and there's no explanation of which is correct. Talu42 (talk) 19:11, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Matzah

Matzah is called "Shmurah Matzah" whether machine made or hand made. Only 18 minutes are allowed, not 22. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.61.36 (talk) 01:06, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Terminology

There is a confusion of terms where the words Matzah and Matzo are used interchangeably in the same paragraph. Those who are not familiar with the different transliterations of the word may find this confusing. I suggest that a single transliteration is used throughout the article. 170.194.32.58 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:48, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

absolutely no evidence for any part of this bible story

I can not believe that there isn't some, even basic, section discussing the lack of historical evidence, or a discussion of the fact that the bible stories were written down well over 2000 years after it purportedly happened.

I'm not here to criticize the religious aspects, but it is certainly absurd to have no discussion at all of the lack of any evidence whatsoever. In truth, the Egyptian record is absolutely silent, as are generations of Jewish, Latin, Greek, and other writers.

Religious folks should not be hijacking articles in order to promote in-myth versions of events alone. It's one thing to describe a holiday's significance, quite another to treat bible stories as historical fact - it's amateurish at best, don't you agree?

http://www.history.com/topics/passover

And e.g.:

"The two primary books of the Old Testament – Genesis and Exodus – refer to 'Pharaoh' 155 times. Curiously, not once in either book is Pharaoh identified by name – and yet, in fact, the references are to many different pharaohs, across many centuries. The anomaly is all the more telling in that the holy books are not lacking in naming numerous sundry and incidental characters. For example, the grandmother, of the grandmother, of King Asa of Judah was Abishalom, should you be interested! (1 Kings 15.10). But this style of literature should be familiar to us all: "Once upon a time, in a land far away, was a bad king. And in the forest, David played ... "

It's called a Fairy Tale.

....Despite the omission of pharaonic names in Genesis, Exodus and most other biblical books, in a few places pharaohs are indeed named. This should have made it possible to synchronize the real history of Egypt with some part of the purported "history" of the Jews recorded in the Bible.

Unfortunately there is a small problem: the Bible's 'Pharaohs' are unknown in all of the vast corpus of Egyptian history.

Thus, 1 Kings (11.40) introduces the character "Shishak"; 2 Kings (17.4) brings on "So" ; and Jeremiah (44.30) gives us "Hophra." The anomaly has given rise to 200 years of "name that pharaoh." With many centuries, 30-odd dynasties, and dozens of monarchs to choose from the possibilities are endless.

Jeroboam's "refuge" in Egypt: Pharaoh 'Shishak' delivers God's punishment on Judah (1000 - 800 BC)

In the last days of Solomon, a labourer, promoted to overseer, called Jeroboam "lifts up his hand" against the monarch and has to flee to Egypt and the protection of Shishak (who of course has an open-house for renegade Jewish labourers) (1 Kings 11). Solomon dies, Jeroboam becomes king of 10 northern tribes (what a star!) and Solomon's legitimate heir Rehoboam is left with just 2 tribes in the south. Jeroboam's accommodating monarch Shishak plunders the Temple in Jerusalem, controlled by his rival, and conquers the whole of Judah. We never hear of Shishak again.

Nothing is known in Egypt of 'Shishak' but inscriptions of Pharaoh Shoshenk I (22nd dynasty) record his attack upon Jerusalem – so Shoshenk has traditionally been identified as the biblical 'Shishak.'

Hoshea of Samaria challenges the King of Assyria: "Pharaoh So" to the rescue (800 -700 BC)

"And the king of Assyria found conspiracy in Hoshea: for he had sent messengers to So king of Egypt, and brought no present to the king of Assyria, as he had done year by year: therefore the king of Assyria shut him up, and bound him in prison." – 2 Kings 17.4.

An obvious candidate for So is Shoshenk – but he's already identified with Shishak! Thutmose III has a temple relief showing conquered cities of Judaea – perhaps we should make Thutmose 'Shishak' so that 'So' can be Shoshenk?!

Egyptian civil war written into the story: Pharaoh 'Hophra' gets on the wrong side of the Lord

"Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will give Pharaoh Hophra king of Egypt into the hand of his enemies, and into the hand of them that seek his life; as I gave Zedekiah king of Judah into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, his enemy, and that sought his life." – Jeremiah 44.30.

With the 'clue' of Nebuchadnezzar (605 - 561 BC) and an obvious fate, chief suspect is the grandson of Pharaoh Neckau who reigned from 589 to 570 BC. This pharaoh died in a rebellion led by his general and son-in-law Ahmose. Unfortunately, this pharaoh is actually called Apries (Herodotus ii.169) and on his monuments as Uah`ab`ra (Wahibre). Perhaps the Pharaoh used the name 'Hophra' when he sent letters to the Jews ...?!

The biblical author was using the literary device of a royal murder to put an instructive 'prophecy' into the mouth of 'Jeremiah.' His oracle of woe was directed at recalcitrant Jews, many of whom lived in Egypt and were susceptible to Egyptian religious practices."

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/egypt.htm http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/chosen-people.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.136.54.23 (talk) 21:44, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Nice rant, but Wiki goes by Reliable Sources (using citations.) Nor is the TP for your use to Soapbox. HammerFilmFan (talk) 23:08, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The sound clip linked to at the very beginning of the article for the pronunciation of "פסח" sounds more like a Yiddish pronunciation than a Hebrew one. Is it my imagination, or does anyone else also think so? Toddcs (talk) 15:54, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

rituals

ظظضضزززخخحح107.15.45.39 (talk) 19:30, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2014

Minor edit requested to balance parentheses in first paragraph: Passover, or Pesach (from: פֶּסַח in Hebrew, Yiddish), Tiberian: [pɛsaħ] ( listen), Modern Hebrew: /ˈpesaχ/ Pesah, Pesakh, Yiddish: Peysekh, Paysakh, Paysokh) is an important Biblically-derived Jewish festival.

parenthesis after Hebrew should be removed: Passover, or Pesach (from: פֶּסַח in Hebrew, Yiddish, Tiberian: [pɛsaħ] ( listen), Modern Hebrew: /ˈpesaχ/ Pesah, Pesakh, Yiddish: Peysekh, Paysakh, Paysokh) is an important Biblically-derived Jewish festival.

or, if it must stay, a new set opened before "Tiberian": Passover, or Pesach (from: פֶּסַח in Hebrew, Yiddish), (Tiberian: [pɛsaħ] ( listen), Modern Hebrew: /ˈpesaχ/ Pesah, Pesakh, Yiddish: Peysekh, Paysakh, Paysokh) is an important Biblically-derived Jewish festival.

2001:4898:80E0:EE43:0:0:0:4 (talk) 18:08, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Done Anon126 (talk - contribs) 22:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

The historic Y'shua bar Yosef was crucified on the 1st Day of Passover 3090 Hebrew Calendar / Friday April 7, 30 AD

The historic Y'shua bar Yosef was born on April 17, 6 BC / 17.4.748 AUC. (ref: http://MichaelMolnar.com) He was crucified on the 1st Day of Passover Friday April 7, 30 AD / 7.4.783 AUC / 14 Nissan 3090 HC. The Christ did NOT die on the Cross; he appeared dead. The definition of death is 'final'. The Jewish Messiah had a near-death experience. Jesus was taken down off the Cross without any bones being broken before sunset. About 37 hours later on Sunday mourning at sunrise, he again appeared. - Benjamin Franklin 75.74.157.29 (talk) 12:44, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2014

Please change "As Muslims revere the Israelites, Muhammad recommended to fast this day but be different from the Jews and recommended fasting two days instead of one." into "As Muslims wanted to indicate Islam's contradiction with the Israelites, Muhammad recommended to fast this day but be different from the Jews and recommended fasting other day with or instead of it." References can be found in this link: http://www.saaid.net/mktarat/mohram/15.htm Or Hadith Muslim number 1134 & Abu-dawood (2/327) (H 2445) & Albaihaky (4/287) Andrew Metry (talk) 00:32, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Not done: The sentence you want to add does not make sense grammatically. I see your point about the current text, but could you simplify your change to improve the initial half of the sentence without losing the "similarly, but difference" construction? The main article for that section describes the decision as wanting to celebrate Moses more than the Israelites. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 18:17, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2014

Check for "New Yor"66.74.176.59 (talk) 16:23, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Done –Davey2010 • (talk) 16:45, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

In the year 2019 spring full moon will occur 3 hours 45 min. after vernal equinox

In the year 2019 vernal equinox will occur at Mar 20, 21:58 UTC and first full moon after it, at Mar 21, 01:43 UTC. Georges Theodosiou, The Straw Man, chretienorthodox@hotmail.fr 194.214.208.41 (talk) 15:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.4.224.210 (talk) 13:34, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Update over Biblical Reference

Hello all... This is my first time making any suggestions, so please bear with me. In the section "BIBLICAL ORIGIN" There appears a slight discrepancy in the scripture quoted.

"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month between the two evenings is the LORD's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD; seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. And ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days; in the seventh day is a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. (Leviticus 23:5)"

The section I bolded is NOT in the Hebrew text, as noted by the link which is cited at the end of the scripture in the above section. http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0323.htm#5 I would suggest the removal of the added words from this section - the removal of: between the two evenings is the Lord's Passover

EmanStalEmanStal (talk) 01:04, 10 March 2015 (UTC)EmanStal

Semi-protected edit request on 10 March 2015 - RE: Biblical Origin Section

Hello all... This is my first time making any suggestions, so please bear with me. In the section "BIBLICAL ORIGIN" There appears a slight discrepancy in the scripture quoted.

"In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month between the two evenings is the LORD's Passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD; seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. And ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days; in the seventh day is a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. (Leviticus 23:5)"

The section I bolded is NOT in the Hebrew text, as noted by the link which is cited at the end of the scripture in the above section. http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0323.htm#5 I would suggest the removal of the added words from this section - the removal of: between the two evenings is the Lord's Passover so the passage would read:

" In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at dusk, is the LORD'S passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD; seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread. In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. And ye shall bring an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days; in the seventh day is a holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work. (Leviticus 23:5)"

References

EmanStal (talk) 01:07, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Done by Editor2020. Stickee (talk) 02:17, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

Sephardic v Ashkenazi Differences

The summary box notes there are one or two Seder meals. The option of one or two Seders (first night, second night) is an Ashkenazi tradition. In Sephardic, we have two or three Seders. There is always a Seder on the first night; and there is always a Seder on the seventh night; and some people also do a second night Seder, especially if they live in communities with lots of Ashkenazim.

There are also other differences that the article might elicit, such as the Sephardic tradition of acting out the Exodus at the Seder. Among other things, this always features someone play-acting at being a man or woman or child (or Elijah in disguise) bent over from the weight of carrying a heavy pack. "From where have you come?" someone (or the group) asks. "From Egypt and slavery!" s/he answers. "To where are you going?" another asks. "To Israel and freedom!" And so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.162.218.153 (talk) 16:54, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Distinction Between Sunset and Nightfall

What is the distinction between sunset and nightfall? In ordinary use, they can be conflated. What nuance distinguishes them? 24.210.33.93 (talk) 18:04, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2015

Passover IS observed by St. Thomas Christians of India. Not Jews only. They are distinct from groups that claim relation to Israelite peoples.

24.114.29.182 (talk) 15:32, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Kharkiv07^Talk 15:41, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2016

CURRENT TEXT STATES In Judaism, a day commences at dusk and lasts until the following dusk, thus the first day of Passover only begins after dusk of the 14th of Nisan and ends at dusk of the 15th day of the month of Nisan. The rituals unique to the Passover celebrations commence with the Passover Seder when the 15th of Nisan has begun. In the Northern Hemisphere Passover takes place in spring as the Torah prescribes it: "in the month of [the] spring" (בחדש האביב Exodus 23:15). It is one of the most widely observed Jewish holidays.

NEW TEXT SHOULD STATE In Judaism, a day commences at dusk and lasts until the following nightfall, when three medium sized stars appear in the sky, thus the first day of Passover only begins after dusk of the 14th of Nisan and ends at nightfall of the 15th day of the month of Nisan. The rituals unique to the Passover celebrations commence with the Passover Seder when the 15th of Nisan has begun. In the Northern Hemisphere Passover takes place in spring as the Torah prescribes it: "in the month of [the] spring" (בחדש האביב Exodus 23:15). It is one of the most widely observed Jewish holidays. ni Pdbishopii (talk) 17:32, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Terra ^❤ 12:46, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

==Date and duration==

The page currently says, "The Passover begins on the 15th day of the month of Nisan, which typically falls in March or April of the Gregorian calendar."

Can someone make the article more specific?

The Easter article says, "In Western Christianity, using the Gregorian calendar, Easter always falls on a Sunday between 22 March and 25 April inclusive, within about seven days after the astronomical full moon."

Since the date was mathematically fixed in the fourth century, what is the earliest and what is the latest dates on the Gregorian calendar that 15 Nisan can fall?

allixpeeke (talk) 09:55, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

==Akkadian Cognate==

The article lists the Akkadian cognate of Pesaḥ as "passahu." The intended word was pašāḫu, "to be at rest, to become tranquil" as per The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago (https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/cad_p.pdf). That said, I cannot be certain that pašāḫu is indeed a cognate to pesaḥ. Can someone confirm this through other sources? Ruyn13 (talk) 07:09, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2017

I wanted to edit the name of the Syriac language that it is mistakenly written "Assyrian" Fady.yousuf (talk) 09:52, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:32, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

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Updating

Could you please update the Gregorian dates in the chart on the right by deleting the dates for the years 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017, and adding the dates for the years 2019 and 2020? Please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:5D4E:5CA9:29A0:CE68:7E77:8C07 (talk) 22:21, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2018

Could you please update the chart to the right at the top of the page by deleting the dates from 2017 and earlier, and adding the dates for 2019 and 2020? Please. 2602:304:5D47:EC19:A44D:6D1B:ED2C:AAE6 (talk) 17:41, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

 Partly done: I removed 2017 and earlier, and added only 2019. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 21:31, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Dating

Footnote #5 = Seder Olam uses a 3761bc Adam as 1am start of a 19-year lunar calendar and records figures to a 1313bc exodus as 2449am. (The 2450 is an attempt to make Jubilee, though Jubilee is not 50, it is 49 to the 50th so that 2449am would qualify as it is. Problem there is Adams year 1am plus 49 is 50am, expecting 2450am instead of 2449am. But Jewish do not go by 50s, they cycle the 7-year unbroken. which would expect cycles of 49 from 1am to 2451am. ) 75.86.172.174 (talk) 18:31, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2019

as per the bible it states that the first born of every family and animal would die if it did not have the blood on the door post of the door. where in your description it states that the first born of Egypt would die. I find that it differs to a certain extent the two statements. Thanking you. Manny 105.4.1.17 (talk) 21:44, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

The Exodus says: "Every firstborn son in Egypt will die". It's not clear what changes you want made. – Þjarkur (talk) 21:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

Introduction

The introductory paragraph states that the Exodus was a "myth".

However, it was an actual, documented historical event, and so the "myth" comment should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SDCinCanada (talk • contribs) 19:06, 4 July 2019 (UTC)