Talk:Passover Seder/Archive 1

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Archive 1

The breakdown of the many steps

Whoever chose to break down Maggid into four distinct "tellings" --- It is nice, and I certainly agree, but I think it may stray too far from what an encylopedia should do, and get too close to what a commentary should do. Nevertheless, it is already in and I will not call for it to be deleted. I only mention it in order to contrast it with what appears in the section about Eliahu ha-Navi. We can debate whether or not to include anything about the pouring of the fifth cup, and its connection to Eliyahu, but to omit those points while including a reference to a song which does not appear in any Hagada that I've ever seen seems ludicrous. I vote for either removing this section, or at least adding something about the fifth cup, or preferably both. --Keeves 22:52, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Days that the Seder is Held

I have it straight from the horse's (ie, a good Jewish friend) mouth that the Seder is not held on "any" of the nights, but solely on the first or second night, depending on if one dwells in Israel or not. Can anyone provide any references to the contrary? If not, the first paragraph should be edited to reflect the fact that it is not any night it's held on but only the first or second. --Kokkei bunni (talk) 03:26, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

it has been fixed. In the future feel free to fix it yourself. Jon513 (talk) 15:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

This hasn't been true for well over a century. Modern families are too complex to maintain this rule. There's usually competition to see which family gets you first night, husband's or wife's, so there are normally two Seders. Families in Reform congregations have been adding communal Seders since the 1800s, and families which simply can't get together for the first or second are allowed and encouraged to have supplementary Seders for the sake of inclusion. AdamJRichards (talk) 17:33, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Cleanup tagging

This reads like a blow-by-blow derived not only from reliable sources but in large part from personal experience. It needs to focus more on the origins and significance of the event, with the descriptions of the event itself significantly condensed. Seraphimblade Talk to me 10:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

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nquddah and daghesh

I want to pronuciations of Hebrew language. Can anyone write and point the Hebrew letter on Japanese ja:セーデル・シェル・ペサハ article with nquddah and daghesh? --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 15:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge?

merger debate at Talk:Haggadah_of_Pesach

Revert to take out senseless edits. (Masema 07:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC))

Pictures

Since the opportunity to photograph a seder comes just once a year, I thought it best to bring up this point: we could show it better. I took the only picture yet on the page, and as you can see, my family's table setting is terribly casual. This Passover, please take a picture of a better one. —RadRafe 08:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

To merge or not to merge

I don't agree that the Passover Seder article should be merged with the Haggadah article. The Haggadah is only the guide to how to conduct a Seder; there are other reasons and symbolism for why the Seder is going on. However, the way this article is written, it is nothing more than another version of the Haggadah article. The rundown of each part of the service should not be the main issue here. This article needs to be rewritten with an eye to explaining the reasons and symbolism behind the Seder itself. Yoninah 23:25, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

  • I fully agree with Yoninah's reasoning/s. IZAK 04:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Public Seders

In addition to private family Seders, there are many public Seders, which can be attended by anyone.

Reasons for attending public Seders vary:

  • not wanting to be alone
  • being away from home for work or holiday
  • wanting someone else to do the cooking and cleaning up

A public Seder can be held at any type of venue:

  • hotel
  • restaurant
  • marquis
  • synagogue hall
  • community centre

If you are looking for a public seder which you can attend, do search with your favourite search engined for the local Jewish community services, and contact them. Public Seders are often publicised in the local Jewish press in the few weeks prior to Passover.

The Chabad-Lubavitch Movement offer public seders locally and around the world. Some of their seders have turned into mass seders that are the biggest in the world. The first such mass seder took place in Kathmandu, Nepal in 1989, and was attended by 350 people. Later these seders had in attendance over 1800 people at one time! The Kathmandu seder spawned other such mass seders located in places that are travel destinations for thousands of young Israelis. The Chabad website has an International Seder Directory, which helps people locate public seders wherever they are in the world!

We attended a public Seder last year (2005) at the Saatchi Synagogue in London. There were about 80 people present. Some were singles, who had no where else to go. There were some international students who were studying in London. A few were elderly couples who couldn't be bothered to make the seder at home. We were there because we didn't want to have a seder with just 2 people, but we had no one to invite. Biggybank 07:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all this information. You could either write it into the article yourself (in encyclopedic style), or wait for someone else to do it. Yoninah 07:39, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Inclusive

It's worth noting that many christian churches also organize an annual Passover Seder. In addition, English & Hebrew aren't the only acceptable languages for conducting the Passover Seder. It be be done in any language. Joncnunn 21:27, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Yours is a very interesting note about Christian churches, and is very appropriate for the article about Passover (Christian holiday). As you can see from the talk page on Passover, the consensus is to separate Jewish and Christian observances of Passover into separate Wikipedia articles.
Regarding your second observation, it is true that the Seder can be conducted in any language, although the Halakha prescribes that it be done in Hebrew. I amended the text to include other languages, per your point. Yoninah 21:41, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed additon by user:207.200.116.200, mostly these two paragraphs:

Jews born and raised in Israel, Karaite Jews, and Samaritans only observe Passover for one day, whether they are in Israel or travelling/living abroad during the holiday. Likewise, Jews who grew up observing a two-day Passover continue to do so even when if they are visiting or living in Israel during the holiday. Sephardic Jews, who may observe either a one or two-day Passover celebration, typically do a first night seder and a seventh-night seder.
The Passover seder recounts liberation and the Exodus of the Children of Israel from bondage to slavery in Ancient Egypt. In Sephardic tradition, the Exodus is actually re-enacted as a bit a seder dinner theatre. The text of seder proper is contained in a small booklet called a Haggadah. There are symbolic foods on a ritual plate, called a Seder Plate. The specific foods vary slightly between ethno-cultural traditions, but there are always six of them and all traditions use the same categories of foods (e.g., there are always two types of bitter herb, though different traditions and different families may use different particular bitter herbs); and, of course, there is always matzo. Four questions are asked during the seder. In Ashkenazic tradition, the four questions are asked by the youngest person. In Sephardic tradition, they questions are asked communally.

Firstly it is too long for an introduction. Second I have no idea who Samaritan has anything do with the seder. Sephardim don't celebrate a seder on the seventh night. Jon513 18:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You also removed the Hebrew text that I had added. I don't know if that was on purpose or not. I won't readd it in case you meant to do that. Just wanted to let you know in case you weren't aware :) —Seqsea (talk) 20:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

"Focus on Children"

The traditional emphasis on children is of Biblical origin and is clearly stated in the Talmud. The Mishna explicitly states that the son (albeit not necessarily the youngest) asks his father the "Mah Nishtana." This is also reflected in many Sephardic halachic works (including the Shulchan Aruch).

Physical reenactment of the Exodus at the Seder exists by Ashkenazim as well (especially Chassidim), and is mentioned in many old sources.

good job. I've notice you've made a few Passover related changes. I hope your stay on wikipedia extends passed the holiday. If it does I would recommend getting a user account. Welcome. Jon513 07:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Non-Jewish Seders

I think this discussion is weak and misleading. Unfortunately I do not know of any secondary sources to quote but I know that it is off from personal observation of the movement. Since the early Christian church there has been debate about the need to observe the Jewish rituals since Christianity is an extension of Judaism. The downplay came as part of the desire to covert the gentiles to Christianity. Thus, it is legitimate for Christians to use any Old Testament rituals and not all churches try to change its meaning.Mangogirl2 11:44, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Open-ended seders

I know first-hand that some seders DO eat dessert in an open-ended manner (of which the "Afikomen" might or might not be part). Unfortunately, it's tough to find written sources to reflect this fact. So I added "traditionally" as a hedge term to the parts concerning the Afikomen. The point is clear: Seders are not as set in stone as Orthodox and Conservative/ Masorti Jews might suggest, but is often a household and family tradition. — Rickyrab | Talk 20:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Admittedly, this custom has an uneasy coexistence with the Four Children part of a Haggadah, leading to the potential for some joking and/or laughing. For that matter, my personal opinion is that there ought to be more children (representing more types of people) and more discussion of those children. I also suspect the Simple Child and The Child who Does Not Know How to Ask are pretty much the same type of person (note the similarity of treatment). — Rickyrab | Talk 20:51, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Citations Needed

This article is chock full of generalities and inaccuracies, such as the statement that the seder is affiliated with the "messianic age". That's just one, I don't have time to list them all, but the vast majority of information in this article does not include citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.149.222 (talk) 07:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Number of Seder Foods

This article says there are "always six" seder foods, but I am pretty sure many communities only use five. The food in dispute is the bitter vegetable, the chazeret. Does anyone know more about this?

You are correct (which is probably not what you meant by "knowing more about this", but I did want to re-iterate that).96.231.122.40 (talk) 05:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Interfaith seders

see also wikiarticle Rodger Kamenetz

-- 88.72.22.205 (talk) 23:53, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Elijah's Cup

I just added some information that concerns the fifth cup of wine. The information that was there previously - that Elijah comes into homes on Seder night and drinks the wine - was lamentably incomplete. I have kept it there, given that it reflects contemporary beliefs, but added the background. --Aniboker (talk) 02:10, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

It would be nice to have some Hebrew text

Anyone speak Hebrew? It'd be nice to have actual Hebrew text next to the transliterations in the article. I'll be doing a bit more copyediting article on the article soon if no one else takes care of it...shouldn't be too much of a problem, I only noticed a few errors. Any elaboration/consolidation would probably make this article better. cprompt

oh oh, I do! I also have a human Hebrew translator ofc. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 08:43, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

possible copyright violation

I recently reverted an edit. But I now see that there may be a problem: the wording found in the paragraph is close to verbatim that of the sources provided: [1], and especially [2]. I think it violates copyright as stands. Anybody care to rewrite it? Bus stop (talk) 18:44, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Someone really should, it's almost Pesach and people will come here for information. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 16:07, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
There's a paragraph about the orange at Passover Seder Plate#Variants, which I revised recently (and then it was revised some more by another editor), citing a number of different sources. I'm not sure about the last sentence of that paragraph (which sounds like it might be a subtle bit of advertising), but overall it might be a good model for an alternative text. --Arxiloxos (talk) 22:30, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
About traditional homophobia in Judaism? It is traditionally homophobic though (as are all the Abrahamic faiths). Do we need more source talking about this for the article though?

Note regarding the use of child in place of son

So I noticed this edit right here: [3]. I would like to say that the translation using child in place of son is perfectly acceptable if the original Hebrew word used is yeled (ילד) meaning either boy or child in Hebrew. Ben (בן) is son btw. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 02:36, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Categorization

From Category:Meals

A meal is an instance of eating, specifically one that takes place at a specific time and includes specific, prepared foodstuffs.

From Passover Seder

The Passover Seder is a Jewish ritual feast.

So this just does not compile. Thus: Breakfast, lunch, dinner or supper are meals. Passover Seder or Thanksgiving dinner are not.

If you disagree, I'd be glad to read your arguments.

Also, please discuss before reverting any good faith edits. Netrat (talk) 12:29, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

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Non-Jewish Seders

This section is offensive. It isn't about Seders at all, it's political and social criticism disguised as "inclusion". These are not Seders. A Seder can be feminist, but if it's a Feminist Seder, then it isn't a Seder. You can't hate what you're claiming to celebrate, and call it a Seder. You can't just elevate every Seder-themed publicity stunt to the historical and social peerage of traditions followed by hundreds of millions of ordinary people over the millenia. It isn't a Seder if it repudiates every Seder value, insults most of the Seder-going Jews in the world, and rewrites every single liturgical passage to suit itself. Judaism is not a vehicle for left or right wing politics, it is a culture, a religion, a way of life, and the proper and right self-identification of Jews. "Judaism" is not a religion alone, and pretending it is one has become the traditional excuse for cultural insults of all sorts; "Jew" is not a "faith", it's a person, and the Seder is not a place for religious dilettantes to air their political views, any more than a funeral is a place of debate, or your wedding is a place for guests to advertise cleaning products. There's no article on Wikipedia discussing "Alternative High Masses" for unhappy Anglicans. There's no section in the "Ramadan" article about "feminist interpretations" of Islam's major holidays. There's no "non-traditional" Easter celebrations listed, no "feminist Christmas" on the Christmas page, but for some reason, the article about a uniquely Jewish ritual contains multiple hostile references to traditional Judaism, particularly noteworthy as the most unresearched "facts" I've found on Wikipedia in a while. The authors may not have used "original research"; they didn't have to, because their citations are almost all traceable back to opinion and autobiography, not research. They belong on a page called "Hostile References to Traditional Judaism in Seder-themed Protests", but they do not belong here, any more than snide reference to the "outdated moral practices of the traditional Christmas midnight mass" would be tolerated on the "Christmas Mass" page. It is abhorrent bordering on racist that only a page about Jews is treated as a forum for the opinions of non-Jews. We are people, not magazine articles to be discussed as if we aren't able, permitted, or rightful to speak for ourselves. We're right here, you know, like actual people; we can hear you. So tell me: how do the actions of a minority of vaguely Jewish atheist critics so small that they can all be named in a paragraph belong on a page about a 3000-year-old religious and cultural tradition which has affected the life of this planet deeply, not just us, since 1500 years before Jesus was an apprentice, in spite of its untrusting insularity and the hostility of the whole world? Tell that story. Do we really need after all that hostility to have our descriptions in the Encyclopedia of Everything written by people whose hostility to Judaism as it presently exists is palpable? Stop treating me as a billboard to plaster your handbills on. Let my people speak for themselves.

If this offensive politicking is still here after anyone interested has had a chance to reply, I'm taking it down. Put it somewhere else, but don't put it under "Passover", because Passover already means something, and it's not up to non-Jews to decide what that is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdamJRichards (talk • contribs) 17:05, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Capitalization

Why is Seder always capitalized in the article? --Xtreambar (talk) 20:54, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That is an excellent question. If I knew more grammar I would have a definite answer for you; but all I can do is speculate that whoever capitalized it thought that it is a Proper noun. I have no opinion on the matter - grammar gives me a headache. Jon513 (talk) 22:23, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
This requires research. The capitalization in the article is currently inconsistent. Either it is a proper noun or it is not. I tend to think that it is not a proper noun but am not confident enough about that to change everything. If it is not a proper noun, then all references (except, of course, at the beginnings of sentences) must be made lowercase, including in the title. Holy (talk) 17:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't think it's a proper noun, but maybe it should be italicized as a foreign word. Zargulon (talk) 19:44, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Per APA Style Guide's official Twitter page, Seder should always be capitalized (https://twitter.com/apstylebook/status/455708013253644288?lang=en) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.89.135.62 (talk) 03:25, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, it is a proper noun. That's common knowledge amongst Jews. It means Order, and it refers to the strict order of observances during the ritual, from start to finish. You don't "go sedering", you attend your mother's Seder. I'm surprised by this discussion. I don't think after 3000 years that it would still just be a common noun, do you? It isn't a foreign word, it's the name of the ritual, which I use in plain English many times per year. Like "Christmas", not "the christ day", or "Easter", not "the east day", like "The Bible", not like "that there book", and like "Lenten", not like "lenty". This is the same. I hope that clears that up forever. Next time, ask a Rabbi, but make sure you only ask mine (that's a joke, it's ok to laugh). — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdamJRichards (talk • contribs) 17:22, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

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