Talk:Religion in Indonesia/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Created

Ah, finally somebody started this article, and welcome back Imoeng ;-) — Indon (reply) — 11:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hinduism in Indonesia

I just found out that there are 2 articles about Hinduism in Indonesia: Hindu Revival in Indonesia and Agama Hindu Dharma. So which one should be linked as the main article ?? — Indon (reply) — 12:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow, hard to choose. But I think, the Agama Hindu Dharma article is just like, another form of religion (correct me if I'm wrong). While the other article, which is the Hindu Revival in Indonesia article, explain more about how Hinduism being practiced in Indonesia. So, I'd go with the Hindu Revival in Indonesia article. Cheers -- Imoeng 12:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
How about two main articles? — Indon (reply) — 13:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Official & unofficial

I just wanted to make this change, but need other contributors' view. How about the Religions section is changed into Official Religions and then there's another Unofficial Religions/Beliefs, which is a fact in Indonesia but not recognized by the government? There we can write about Aluk Torajan, Bodha, Kaharingan, Abangan, Wektu Telu, etc., as they are fusion of between the official religions and sometime with local traditions. — Indon (reply) — 13:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Indon, Indon,, you are always full of great ideas. Cheers -- Imoeng 22:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The article says that Animism is not recognized because it isn't monotheistic and thus irreconcilable with Pancasila. But Buddhism, Hinduism and Confucianism are polytheistic resp. atheistic and still recognized. Isn't that a contradiction?--87.162.46.189 (talk) 17:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Selamat balakan?

I remember being in a village in the highlands above Rantepao, Sulawesi, where the denomination was (I think) selamat balakan - Salvation Army, but I can't find any reference to them by that name on the net. Is my memory correct, or have I got the name wrong. This was c.15 years ago, so I might be misremembering. --Bwmodular 13:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know either, but I know that Rantepao is in Tana Toraja, and it is the center of the Toraja culture. Toraja religion is called Aluk To Dolo, but most of the population are Christians. Hope that helps. — Indon (reply) — 13:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Heeheehee... I think you got it wrong. Salvation Army is "Bala Keselamatan" in Bahasa Indonesia :D Matahari Pagi 11:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree, I think you saw "Bala Keselamatan", but then mixed it somehow with "Selamat Makan":DSenantiasa (talk) 17:56, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

History: Invasions

I'd question the use of the word invasion, in the first paragraph. That would imply that an armed force from another country had entered Indonesia forcefully. That may be true of the European countries cited, but I don't think the Chinese, Indians or Arabs have ever invaded the country, have they? I thought the influence was more through trade, etc. I may be wrong, but if I'm right, we need to try and find a better word than invasion. --Bwmodular 15:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Hehehe, I have the same question also. I think it is not right to write it as invasion, as invasion is a conquest by a military force. I will opt for acculturation process due to trading contacts. That's my 2 cents. — Indon (reply) — 15:43, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, umm, [1]. I got the word from this site. And because I reckon its a very important statement, I'm afraid to change the word, ahahahahha. Well, trading is good. Cheers -- Imoeng 00:13, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Stated recognised religions: Confucianism?

How about Confucianism? Commonly referred to in Indonesia as Kong Hu Cu (spelling approximated), I seem to recall something about it being reconised sometime during Gus Dur's reign or something. And then there's the debate on wether its actually a religion or a life philosophy. Of course the same can be argued of Buddhism. I don't have any references handy, though... --Lemi4 05:52, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Done. — Indon (reply) — 14:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
According to many sources, Indonesia only acknowledge 5, (five), (lima), (limo) official religions. So, I've moved that section to the "other belief" heading. Please tell me if you don't agree. Cheers -- Imoeng 13:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
It was 6 originally, then Suharto cut it to 5. Since Gus Dur was President it is again 6. See [2] (Caniago 13:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC))
Imoeng, it is 6 religions since 1965 by the Presidential Decree. In practice during New Era, it was de facto 5 religions, then lifted again into 6 by Gus Dur. De jure is always 6. Soekarno decree was never revoked and Soeharto has never created a law that states 5 religions, but the ministry was. Please read again the source I used for the Confucianism section. I know you believe it 5, because it was what we have been taught since elementary school, but actually it is wrong. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 13:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

OH! Sorry I didn't know that. So I guess I have to revert it back and change every statement about 5 official religions. Furthermore I would be awesome if we can write about this issue (things that have been taught in schools). Cheers, and sorry! D'oh! Imoeng 07:56, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Some comments

  • This article defines religion in Indonesia along the official government defined boundaries. In reality, religion in Indonesia is more complex. More coverage is needed of the syncretic nature of Indonesian religion. Even in the "orthodox" regions of Indonesia like West Sumatra, animistic beliefs are still present and coexist with Islam to this day.
  • More detail is needed about the arrival of Islam in Indonesia - the sufi mystics, and the coexistence of Islam with earlier animist, Hindu and Buddhist beliefs and rituals. Why did vast numbers convert to Islam?

There is an interesting overview of religion in SE asia at [3] which covers some of these issues, but I'm sure there are more specific and detailed Indonesia related references that can be found. (Caniago 10:17, 5 November 2006 (UTC))

Hi Michael, this is all good stuff and should be put in the article. Let's Be bold. It looks like you are quite familiar with these topics yourself and good be quite easy for you. I think this article has come a long way very quickly (thanks Imoeng and others) but now the addition of this sort of info can make it a "deeper" analysis. --Merbabu 01:42, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
I tend to agree with michael about the complexity issue - even for something like practices in neighbouring villages anywhere between parangtritis to magelang (and gunung merbabu).... but if this is a general art about indonesia - the susbsidiary articles needed are ones to carry the intricacies and contradictions. SatuSuro 02:10, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

GA on hold

I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria and have put the article on hold until the following issues are addressed.

  1. "As of 1998, approximately 88% of Indonesia's 222 million people are Muslims, 5% are Protestant, 3% are Catholic, 2% are Hindu, 1% are Buddhist, and 1% are believing in other religions." Reword the last part to "and 1% practice other religions".
  2. "Historically, immigration has been a major contributor to the diversity of religion and culture within the country with immigration from India, China, Portugal, Arabian, and Netherlands." Immigration shouldn't be used twice in the same sentence. Reword such as for the second occurrence "within the country as people emigrated from ... to enter Indonesia." or "within the country as various ethnic groups immigrated to Indonesia from..." or something to that effect.
  3. "These religions were brought to Indonesia around the second and fourth centuries, respectively, when Indian traders arrived on the islands of Sumatra, Java and Sulawesi, bringing their religion." Reword "bringing their religion", as it basically repeats the intro of the sentence.
  4. "The traders also established Buddhism in Indonesia which developed further in the following century and a numbr of Hindu and Buddhist influenced kingdoms" Fix the spelling of number and add a hyphen between Buddhist and influenced.
  5. "Coming from Gujarat, India, Islam spread through the west coast of Sumatra and then developed to the east in Java." Change beginning to something like "Deriving from" or "Originating in".
  6. "This period also saw kingdoms established but this time with Muslim influence". Don't use "but this time". Perhaps "This period also saw Muslim-influenced kingdoms established". If you use this, reword the next sentence, because the two will sound very similar.
  7. "Animist areas in eastern Indonesia, on the other hand, were the main focus Dutch conversion efforts," Remove "on the other hand".
  8. "Between 1964 and 1965, the tension between the Communist Party of Indonesia (Partai Komunis Indonesia or PKI) and the Indonesian government, along with some organisations, resulted in the worst mass murders of the twentieth century." "Along with several other organisations"
  9. In the "Islam" section, it appears Image:Istiqlal.jpg has been deleted; either reupload it if possible, add another image in its place, or remove the thumb and text.
  10. "For example, on the island of Sulawesi, 17% of the citizens are Protestants, particularly in Tana Toraja and Central Sulawesi. Furthermore, up to 65% of the Torajan population is Protestant." Add inline citations for these two statements.
  11. "However, human rights groups had questioned the fairness of the trial: claiming that although the three participated in the militia, they were not the leaders." Remove the colon.
  12. "The greatest Hindu empire ever flourished in Indonesian archipelago was Majapahit empire." This sentence should be rewritten, and change "greatest" as it may be seen as POV. Also add an inline citation.
  13. "All practitioners of Agama Hindu Dharma share many common beliefs, mostly the Five Points of Philosophy: the Panca Srada." Remove the colon, and reword to "Five Points of Philosophy or the Panca Srada or put it in parenthesis.
  14. "These include the belief in one Almighty God, belief in the souls and spirits and karma or the belief in the law of reciprocal actions." The last half of this sentence is difficult to follow, reword it a little.
  15. In the last paragraph of the "Hinduism" section, remove the space between the inline citations and the punctuation; this occurs twice.
  16. "Central Kalimantan is 15.8% Hindu." Add inline citation, and expand upon, this sentence is a little short.
  17. "Indonesian archipelago has witnessed the rise and fall of powerful Buddhist empires such as Sailendra dynasty, Srivijaya and Mataram Empires." Add "The" at the beginning of the sentence.
  18. "The arrival of Buddhism was started with the trading activity that began in the early of first century on the Silk Road between Indonesia and India." Remove "was" and "of".
  19. "According to some Chinese source, a Chinese traveler monk on his journey to India, has witnessed the powerful maritime empire of Srivijaya based on Sumatra." Reword to "According to some Chinese sources, a Chinese traveler monk on his journey to India witnessed the powerful maritime empire of Srivijaya based on Sumatra." Add inline citation after this statement.
  20. "Following the downfall of President Sukarno in the mid-1960s, Pancasila was reasserted as the official Indonesian policy on religion to only recognise monotheism ." Remove space at end of sentence.
  21. "He was also backed up with the history behind the Indonesian version of Buddhism in ancient Javanese texts, and the shape of the Borobudur Temple." Reword as "he was backed up" doesn't sound encyclopedic.
  22. "It is estimated as late as the 3rd century AD that the Chinese arrived in Nusantara archipelago." Reword to "It is estimated that as late as the 3rd century AD the Chinese arrived in the Nusantara archipelago."
  23. "Unlike other religions, Confucianism evolved more into loose individual practices and belief in the code of conduct, rather than a well-organized community religion, or way of life or social movement." Reword the last part of the sentence.
  24. "In 1965, Sukarno issued Presidential Decree No. 1/Pn.Ps/1965, in which there be six religions embraced by the Indonesian people, including Confucianism." Reword to "In 1965, Sukarno issued Presidential Decree No. 1/Pn.Ps/1965, which allowed for six religions to be embraced by the Indonesian people, including Confucianism."
  25. "In 1967, Sukarno was replaced by Suharto, marking the New Order era." "...marking the beginning of the...". Also fix the link for New Order, it currently links to a band; fix any other occurrences as well.
  26. "However, Suharto knew how to handle Chinese Indonesian community that formed only 3% of the population, but gained a disproportionately large share of wealth and dominant influence in many key sectors of economy." Reword to "However, Suharto knew how to handle the Chinese Indonesian community which consisted of 3% of the population, but had gained a disproportionately large share of wealth and dominant influence in many key sectors of economy."
  27. "In 1969, Statute No. 5/1969 was passed and it re-iterated the official six religions from the 1967 presidential decree. However, it was different in practice." How was it different in practice?
  28. "On 27 January 1979, a presidential cabinet meeting took place and it firmly decided that Confucianism is not a religion." Add a wikilink for the full date. Also "Confucianism was not a religion".
  29. "This practice was applied in many places, including in the national registration card, marriage registration, and even civics education in Indonesia taught school children that there are only 5 official religions." Reword to "This practice was applied in many places, including to the national registration card, marriage registration, and even civics education in Indonesia which taught school children that there were only 5 official religions."
  30. "Confucianism is now officially recognized as religion in Indonesia." "as a religion".
  31. "Furthermore, two thousand years later, with the existence of Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism and other religion," "other religions".
  32. "However, this belief is not accepted as Indonesia's official religion as the Pancasila states the belief in the supreme deity, or monotheism. Animism, on the other hand, does not believe in a particular god." Reword to "However, this belief is not accepted as an official religion as the Pancasila requires the belief in a supreme deity, or monotheism which animism does not follow.
  33. "An early Jewish settlement in the archipelago was through the Dutch Jews who came along for the spice trade." Reword, no "came along". Also spice trade does not need to be italicized.
  34. Reword the last three sentences in the "Judaism" section; maybe combine two of them.
  35. Fix the redirects for "2004 Tsunami" and "2005 Poso beheadings".
  36. "Citizens in western Indonesia are mostly Muslims with Christians a small minority," "Citizens in western Indonesia are mostly Muslim with Christians making up a small minority,"
  37. "The conference, which attended by ASEAN countries, Australia, Timor Leste, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea was intended to discuss" "The conference was attended by ASEAN countries Australia, Timor Leste, New Zealand and Papua New Guinea and discussed"

A lot of these should be easy to fix, and a lot of sentences need to be rewritten. I will leave the article on hold for seven days and will pass it at the end of that time period if everything is fixed. If you have any questions or when you finish, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 23:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Won't have time for these since I've got loads of assignments. Nehrams2020 will fail this for now, if anyone can fix those things, get back to him/her as soon as possible. Cheers - Imoeng 07:38, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I failed it for now, just so the hold doesn't go on for too long. Leave me a message on my talk page once the above issues are completed and I'll rereview the article. --Nehrams2020 17:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Original religion(s)

What types of religions existed among the Malays of Indonesia before Hinduism and Buddhism were imported from India? Badagnani (talk) 04:16, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Official distribution

Good news: year 2005 update Indonesian Department of Religious Affair. Reindra (talk) 04:10, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Synagogue in Surabaya

I remember reading a while back that the synagogue was closed in 2008 because it isn't recognized as a place for religious worship. Would anyone who knows more be able to update the article? Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:18, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I've updated the article, based on History of the Jews in Indonesia. BagusBagus (talk) 15:57, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

There's a collision in the article

The author could correct the number as there's two percent number of the total Protestants of Indonesia mentioned in the article. It's confusing.

"As of 2006, 6% of the total citizens of Indonesia are Protestants.[22]"

"As of 2006, 3% of all Indonesians are Catholics, about half the number of Protestants at 5.7% The practitioners mostly live in Papua and Flores." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.194.245.65 (talk) 10:49, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

"Actually you can look at Indonesian page of wikipedia it's written clearly that number protestant is 9.2% is protestant while 3.5 is catholic, this high increase is probably contributed by conversion of Chinese Buddhist to Christianity. I remember Buddhist being 2 % in 2000 and now its only 0.4%. Large Christians community also exist in West Borneo, North Sumatra and Sulawesi.(talk)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.82.84.216 (talk) 13:23, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Atheism

How many percent do not believe in Gods? Is there an atheist movement? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.121.61.176 (talk) 01:01, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

There is but very little that it can't be seen, in fact almost 100% of the population in Indonesia have religion. Although atheism isn't recognized in Indonesia i doubt that the number can be called a movement. --menethils21 11:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
It seems that Indonesia's atheists and agnostics are no longer all pretending to believe. See this Jakarta Globe article. Aberdeen01 (talk) 14:03, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
One thing that the article should be more careful about when discussing people's faith is the subtle difference between:
(i) what people fill-in on the census
(ii)what people say to their family and friends
(iii)what people actually privately believe
The three can be rather different. Aberdeen01 (talk) 14:08, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Statistics in article differ from those in source World Factbook

The article currently states: "As of 2007, the population was estimated at 234,693,997.[2] Based on the 2010 census, approximately 85.1% were Muslims consisting of Shias and Sunnis, 12.7% Christians (9.2% Protestant and 3.5% Catholic), 1.8% Hindu, 0.4% Buddhist and other or unspecified .[2]" The cite used to support these assertions is: "^ a b "Indonesia". The World Factbook. CIA. 2006-10-05. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/id.html. Retrieved 2006-10-13." When I visit the referenced website, I see: "Muslim 86.1%, Protestant 5.7%, Roman Catholic 3%, Hindu 1.8%, other or unspecified 3.4% (2000 census)". I do not see any reference to the 2010 census. I further question whether 2010 census could have been obtained during a 2006 retrieval. Unless someone can reference a 2000 census or 2010 census provided by the Government of Indonesia, the statistics on religions should revert to that actually listed on the World Factbook page (as that is listed as the supporting reference).--Rpclod (talk) 20:20, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Ideally we should reference the census - if the census and the factbook differ, then we need to go with the census. --Merbabu (talk) 05:31, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
I agree. Unfortunately, I cannot find the results of the 2000 or 2010 census on the internet and do not otherwise have access to it. The relevant Indonesian agency is Badan Pusat Statistik and population data for the 2000 census is referenced as Penduduk Indonesia: hasil sensus penduduk tahun 2000. In the meantime, the article contains data which is purportedly supported by but actually conflicts with a relatively authoritative source. I recommend changing to reflect the data shown at the source until the actual census data is available.--Rpclod (talk) 04:27, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


Unfortunately you didnt look hard enough.

Indonesia 2010 census will not have religious data, like 2000 census.So, 2010 census and anybody who claims such thing, that religious data will be collected.Is not true

Data for 2000 census religion


http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,USDOS,,IDN,,4cf2d09264,0.html

http://www.pupr.edu/hkettani/papers/WMP.pdf

Indonesia: Based on census data, the Muslim population increased from 103,579,496 or 87.51% in 1971 to 177,528,772 or 88.22% in 2000.

Denizlin24 (talk) 10:23, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

You state that I didn't look hard enough, but fail to provide any actual 2010 census reference. Your UNHCR cite merely displays a US State Dept report. The report states: "According to a 2000 census report, 88 percent of the population is Muslim, 6 percent Protestant, 3 percent Roman Catholic, and 2 percent Hindu. Other religions (Buddhist, followers of traditional indigenous religions, Jewish, and other Christian denominations) are less than 1 percent of the population. Some Christians, Hindus, and members of other minority religious groups say that the census undercounted non-Muslims. The government conducted a national census in 2010 that will provide more accurate figures." That seems to contradict your statement that the 2010 census will contain no religion data; nor does the report itself provide any 2010 data. The Puerto Rico Polytechnic page provides an Intl Journal of Environmental Science and Development article that, again, does not list any 2010 census information. If you are aware of where 2010 Indonesia census data is actually located, please provide a link. As to whether religion data will be included, I cannot verify as I have not seen the data. However, your statement that it will not be included conflicts with several authoritative sources. "Items to be collected in the 2010 Population Census". 2010 Indonesia Population Census. Jakarta: Badan Pusat Statistik Republik Indonesia. 2009. In total the C form contains about 40 questions, including * * * (3) socio-economic characteristics, include: religion, * * *; Hartanto, Wendy, The 2010 Indonesia Population Census (PowerPoint presentation), Jakarta: BPS-Statistics Indonesia, Slide 9, Items Collected in the Census Using Form C1 . . . Socio-cultural: religion, ethnic group, citizenship, ability to speak Indonesian, daily language used at home;--Rpclod (talk) 12:42, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Persons continue to attempt to edit the statistics listed in the opening paragraph. The only cite listed is to the Indonesia article in the CIA World Factbook. The World Factbook lists only the 2000 census figures. Yet persons attempt to insert 2010 census numbers into the quote. This is extremely poor practice and greatly damages the reliability of Wikipedia. If a reference is quoted, do not change the quote to reflect what you wish that it says! If a reference is cited, ensure that the article text matches the cited reference. The official Indonesian census bureau, Badan Pusat Statistik (BPS), will eventually list the religion statistics from the 2010 census on the official website, Sensus Penduduk 2010. At that time (or when the 2010 census figures can otherwise be appropriately referenced), the statistics on this Wikipedia should be updated -- but not earlier.--Rpclod (talk) 15:50, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Christianity in Indonesia

Why does the Indonesian Government officially recognize Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as 2 separate religions? Why not recognize them as one ( Christianity) ?--Splashen (talk) 17:38, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Because the Roman Catholicism was brought by the Portuguese, while the Protestantism was brought by the Dutch. StrategyFan (talk) 13:49, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

MAP from the Indonesian Wiki

This map seems to be supperior in so many ways:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/id/d/d4/Indonesia_Religion_Percentage.png

It seems to be way more accurate and precise. I see no reasons why it shouldnt be used in the english Wiki. Preferable the key should be in English, but even if that should not be possible, we should use it. Its not uncommon for some maps to have keys in diffrent, mostly other western languages. I see no reason why they shouldnt be in Indonesian, and they are (except for Lainnya, what is that, maybe Animism? Borneo seems to have some of it) perfectly understandable. If no one finds the time to make an english map, ill upload the Indonesian one in a few days. Hopefully its not gonna be reversed but if anything encourages the re-uploading of an translated map... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.97.47.150 (talk) 02:42, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

It looks really good, though it's not perfect. There's the translation problem, of course, but it might be simpler to just have the majority indicated, rather than shades of blue/purple/green/etc. Another thing is that it would be really good to have access to the data behind the map - when is it from, and so forth. Gabrielthursday (talk) 02:58, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Pie chart on top right is crap

  1. It doesn't belong to 2015, but 2010
  2. The percentages are all wrong (not even mentioning the predominant religion is Islam, whereas according to the chart, it is Christianity -the blue region)

88.224.148.158 (talk) 00:46, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out, it simply caused by some acts of vandalism by a user. Restored back to last best version. Cheers. Gunkarta  talk  06:05, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

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Please remove or move the non-factual analysis regarding Prabowo

This information in th Summary is clearly false. "However, in the early 1990s, the issue of Islamisation appeared, and the military split into two groups, the Nationalist and Islamic camps.[56] The Islamic camp, led by General Prabowo, was in favour of Islamisation, while General Wiranto was in the Nationalist group, in favour of a secular state."

The fact is Prabowo has devoted Christian mother the late Tante Dora, and an evangelical-church-leader Christian brother Hasyim Djoyohadikusumo.

The reference was part of black campaign and hatred toward Soeharto or Prabowo's political opponent.

The Green and Red TNI was marking provided by many analyst, and anti Soeharto activist. The naming has various version, and most don't mark the low profile Wiranto as the red-and-white TNI leader. Even during 1990-th, Prabowo was never marked as Green TNI, he was belong to Soeharto inner circle that is excluded from those markings, as one of several Suharto successor candidate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.62.17.53 (talk) 12:14, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Christianity in Indonesia

It says in the article that the Indonesian Government recognizes Protestantism and Roman Catholicism in Indonesia as 2 separate religions. How come they don't recognize them as Christianity?--Splashen (talk) 13:16, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

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