Talk:Shurnukh

Historical Azerbaijani population citation

CuriousGolden, thank you for expanding this article. You cited Zaven Korkotyan

 The village had an Azerbaijani majority prior to their expulsion during the First Nagorno-Karabakh war. The population consisted of 84 people in 1831, 117 in 1904 and 123 in 1931, with all of them being Azerbaijanis.

Several problems here:

• First Nagorno-Karabakh war refers to the conflict between 1988 and 1994, whereas the cited article was published 1932, hence that reference cannot backup the "prior to their expulsion during the First Nagorno-Karabakh war" phrase.
• The cited book does not have open-access text, hence other editors have no idea what exactly is written there. Can you please provide the cited page itself here as proof if if you have access?
• "All of them Azerbaijani" and "Azerbaijani majority" contradict each other, can you please clarify again by providing the cited page?

Regard, Armatura (talk) 03:22, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I've removed the majority before First NK since it's not cited in the book as far as I know. I can't provide access to the book, I've cited the pages which you can find within the book and all the numbers I added are Azerbaijanis, but since "84 Azerbaijanis in 1831, 117 Azerbaijanis in 1904 and 123 Azerbaijanis in 1931" doesn't sound nice, I just added "with all of them being Azerbaijanis" at the end. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 17:34, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

CuriousGolden Thanks. Have you actually read the cited page yourself and in what format and language if I may ask? If you did, what is the problem with uploading the necessary page somewhere for everybody's reference? As requested here. I am asking as, as you can see, the other open-access Armenian language source says the place been populated by Azerbaijanis between 1930 and 1989. I removed 1) "all of them being Azerbaijanis" as it repeats what is already stated and 2) "The village had an Azerbaijani population until 1989." as it is not sourced and it leaves an impression of Azerbaijanis living there since the beginning of history until 1989. The I open access article I mentioned already says that the Azerbaijani population ceased to exist in Shurnukh in 1989, when it was re-populated by Armenians. Regards, Armatura (talk) 18:24, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

CuriousGolden still waiting for reply. If it turns out this is a citation which you yourself didn't read but just cited from Azerbaijani Wikipedia without checking the content I may remove it. Armatura (talk) 08:00, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

It's a citation I found outside of English Wikipedia. I don't own the book. You can request it at WP:REX. And when you can't verify a source, you're supposed to put a {{verify}} near it until someone can, you don't just delete the whole information. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 08:07, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Where did you find it outside Wikipedia if may ask? Armatura (talk) 13:02, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

On Azerbaijani version of the article: az:Şurnuxu. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 13:26, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, CuriousGolden The text you added was apparently falsified and neatpeaked by somebody, claiming there were Azerbaijanis living there in the period where nobody lived there, and then failing to mention Russian and Armenian minorities. You can check the original source yourself if you want (can send by wiki email). Please check the accuracy of information on disputed topics before copy-pasting from Azerbaijani (or Armenian) Wikipedia. Regards, --Armatura (talk) 05:47, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I'd be happy if you emailed me the original source, so I can verify before using that source again. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 07:38, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

CuriousGolden Sent an email with instructions. Let me know if you need help in translating as the text is in Armenian. Regards --Armatura (talk) 01:26, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 10:00, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Şurnux or Şurnuxu

@Armatura: I added two names because Şurnux seems to be used much more than Şurnuxu in Azerbaijani media and I somewhat doubt if the name in the Azerbaijani Wikipedia is the actual common Azerbaijani name. It's probably better if we either include both or change Şurnuxu to Şurnux. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:58, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

CuriousGolden I see. It's Şurnuxu [Շուռնուխ, spelled as Shurnukhu] in Zaven Korkotyan's book. I'd say let's add Şurnuxu to historical Causcausian Tatar / Azerbaijani name to article text, and keep Şurnux as currently used Azerbaijani name in lead paragraph and infobox. If you could add a couple of good sources showing prevalent use of Şurnux name in Azerbaijani modern media, please, that would be very helpful. Regards, --Armatura (talk) 15:25, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Oh that's really helpful because I was starting to think that Şurnuxu was a made-up name. Major Azeri news services & non-Azeri (but in Azeri language service) use Şurnux (BBC Azeri, Musavat, RFERL Azerbaijani). — CuriousGolden (T·C) 15:37, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

"i.e. Azerbaijanis"

@Armatura: Including "(i.e. Azerbaijanis)" especially when it's within parentheses is perfectly fine and it doesn't need to be in the source (which is why it's in parentheses in the first place). This is common practice in a lot of articles around Wikipedia:

1. Vedi - "majority of Caucasian Tatars (nowadays known as Azerbaijanis).."
2. Ruben Ter Minasian - "local Caucasian Tatars (i.e. Azerbaijanis).."
3. United Armenia - "while Caucasian Tatars (Azerbaijanis).."

The purpose of this is to let the reader know what Caucasian Tatar referred to and it's common sense to be honest, so I'm not sure why you're against this. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 09:07, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Curious Golden. I'm against it as it rewrites history - people presently called Azerbaijani were referred as Caucasian Tatars in official resources in the end of 19th and beginning of 20th century, I'm sure you're well aware of that. The fact that in other articles undue weight is given to apparent anachronism doesn't mean it should happen in other articles. Can't understand the unease in Azerbaijan about the old official ethnonym for Azerbaijani people. I'm also against writing ("i.e. Armenians)" in articles mentioning Urartians and other people who preceded the ethnonym Armenians. Regards --Armatura (talk) 18:36, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

It's not rewriting history, it's a mere clarification as to who Caucasian Tatar refers to. I don't think you're disputing that "Caucasian Tatar" in most cases, including this one, refers to modern Azerbaijanis. I can't comment on the Urartian one because I have no information about that topic. I'm not uneased about the use of "Caucasian Tatar", I'm just confused as to why you think this is "rewriting history", when we all know for a fact that Caucasian Tatar refers to Azerbaijanis. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 19:12, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

In historical articles it's appropriate to refer to peoples be the name they were referred to in that period. That's it. People will know that later they were called Azerbaijani when they click the wikilink and go the Azerbaijani people article. It's inappropriate to write "the French" when the subject of the article are "the Franks". Regards --Armatura (talk) 20:07, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

I didn't want to get involved here because of a particular user's one-way IBAN, but really? We can carry this out for third-opinion if its desired, but here, naming the Azerbaijanis as "Tatars" is simply undue. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 14:42, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Addition of Qubadli district

Hi CuriousGolden, I think before adding Azerbaijan as the village's (other) country and Qubadli district as another location it needs to be verified that Shurnukh exists as a locality in Qubadli district in Azerbaijan's official administrative information. I don't think the fact that part of the village extended into Qubadli district is enough reason to add Azerbaijan as its country, since in December-January 2020-21 those parts of the village were abandoned by the villagers and as far as we know none of the inhabitants of the village live in Azerbaijani territory today. The village definitely appeared in Soviet-era maps (which were the basis of the recent border adjustments) as within the Armenian SSR, so even if for some time part of the village extended into Qubadli district, I don't think that means the entire locality should be described as jointly Armenian and Azerbaijani. Sotk and Vorotan are also border villages, but they are not described as being both in Armenia and Azerbaijan. Cheers. Mrdo (talk) 04:51, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi Revolution Saga, you're right, I should've thought about this. I'll look into it to see if the village has been included in the administrative division of Qubadli in the past or recently. Though I have add that Sotk and Vorotan are close to the border, but they're not same as Shurnukh, which is on the border. You can delete the information about Qubadli if you'd like, as I'll delete anyway if I can't find any information about the village in administrative divisions. Cheers. — CuriousGolden (T·C) 14:12, 7 February 2021 (UTC)