Talk:Stefan Dedov

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Bechev's book[edit]

@Kluche The page 88 from Bechev's book appears to be inaccessible on mobile, but it should be accessible on computer. This is the case with access to sources from mobile or computer. StephenMacky1 (talk) 13:36, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

StephenMacky1 hello, I tried to access it on computer (using this preview: https://books.google.mk/books?id=5OSdDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false) but I was unable to do so Kluche (talk) 15:25, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's weird. The preview works for me. The following part on that page appears to support the content: "Later, Dedov worked as a journalist and merchant in Sofia, where he published pro-Bulgarian articles." StephenMacky1 (talk) 15:48, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Jingiby, I'd like to point out that having both "early proponent of the Macedonian Slavs' ethnonational distinctiveness" and " He expressed publicly the idea of a Macedonian nation distinct from Bulgarians, as well as a separate Macedonian language" is completly redundant. Furthermore I fail to see why the exact way of expression like in Bechev's book should be used - there are another 4 sources which back the statement, all of which have a different way of stating it - hence why I suggest that second form should be used, as it covers virtually everything which all sources claim.

Additionally, the direct citation from Tsurnushanov's book regarding Dedov's identification should be removed, as multiple different citations exist claming similar things in the same book. I also propose that the last sentence of the introduction be merged with the first sentence of the 3rd paragraph in the "Biography" section.

In short I propose the introduction to look like this - "Stefan Jakimov Dedov (Macedonian: Стефан Јакимов Дедов, romanized: Stefan Jakimov Dedov, Bulgarian: Стефан Якимов Дедов, romanized: Stefan Yakimov Dedov; 28 October 1869– 19 September 1914) was a journalist, writer who expressed publicly the idea of a Macedonian nation distinct from Bulgarians, as well as a separate Macedonian language."

Best regards, Kluche (talk) 16:38, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Kluche. I propose to return the introduction of the article to its original neutral form, as it was created by StephenMacky1, i.e.: Stefan Dedov was a journalist, owner and editor-in-chief of the newspaper Balkanski glasnik (Balkan herald), and an early proponent of Macedonism. Jingiby (talk) 18:15, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why are we avoiding calling him a Macedonian in the lead sentence? --Local hero ^talk 18:45, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since many of the sources cited in the article call him as a Macedonian, including "Entangled Histories of the Balkans - Volume One" by Marinov and Roumenov, which effectivly calls him a Macedonian (it also has "Macedonist" in quotation marks, see p.319), and while I am still for my first proposition, I also propose this:

Stefan Jakimov Dedov (Macedonian: Стефан Јакимов Дедов, romanized: Stefan Jakimov Dedov; Bulgarian: Стефан Якимов Дедов, romanized: Stefan Yakimov Dedov; 28 October 1869 – 19 September 1914) was a journalist, writer from the region of Macedonia. He was a proponent of the idea of a distinct Macedonian nation.

Kluche (talk) 18:53, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Two remarks: 1. He was from the Ottoman Empire. 2 He was among the early proponents of this idea. Jingiby (talk) 18:58, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1. Such a formulation is/was used in the article about Misirkov and Milan Stoilov (in the latter you actually added that 1)

2. As I said, many of the sources used in the article call him a Macedonian, so a fair compromise to this issue which you are currently objecting, would be calling him just a proponent.

Kluche (talk) 19:07, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I just fixed the issue with Stoilov. Now about Dedov. Even his friend Misirkov, who was declared in North Macedonia as Macedonian No. 1 of the 20th century, is not described on Wikipedia as a Macedonian, due to his dual self-determination. He was a Bulgarian, but also Macedonian in different periods of his life. The case is similar here. Jingiby (talk) 19:14, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There was no "issue" with Stoilov, everyone agreed on it and with this you went against both the consensus and your previous actions.

As I said, the majority of the sources used in this article describe him as a Macedonian, my proposed compromised is done in good-faith. Kluche (talk) 19:19, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dedov's situation is not nearly as conflicted. Just as we call Sarafov and Blagoev "Bulgarian" in those lead sentences and then state their Macedonian identifications later in the paragraph, we can call Dedov a Macedonian and have the Bulgarian identification at the end of the lead. --Local hero ^talk 19:20, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Local hero, I think now the situation in the introduction is similar. Isn't it? Jingiby (talk) 19:24, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Similar yes, but not the same since we don't call him a "Macedonian journalist..." in the very beginning like we call those individuals "Bulgarian" in the very beginning. --Local hero ^talk 21:19, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I intentionally avoided putting any ethnicity in the lead because it's not clearly or explicitly supported by the sources, at least the English-language sources. The majority of the sources describe him as a proponent of Macedonism or Macedonian nationalism. I don't mind framing it as 'Macedonian nationalism' if the term 'Macedonism' is a problem to editors here. The ideology that he was a proponent of should remain in the lead and preferably be wikilinked since it is an accurate and consistent description of the subject per the sources. Some of the arguments here sound like WP:OTHERCONTENT, the article's lead doesn't need to have the same formulation as other articles since the issues of other articles (if there are any) do not necessarily apply here. StephenMacky1 (talk) 00:16, 2 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]