Talk:W. G. Sebald

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Redirect issue[edit]

I notice that Sebald redirects here. Given that there was a saint of the same name (a.k.a. Sebaldus; there is a rather prominent church in Nuremberg dedicated to this saint) this probably calls for a disambiguation rather than a redirect. However, we don't currently seem to have an article on the saint. - Jmabel | Talk 22:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We have one now. I created a disambiguation page. Thanks! --Polylerus 19:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Poor writing[edit]

This article is plagued with flamboyant and poorly-written -at least, when we take into consideration the fact that this is meant to be an encyclopaedia- sentences. The following quotation is a good example of this flaw, as it meanders without any direction.

"The fact that Sebald, a professional literary academic, managed to construct all this in minute detail and with Bach-like grandeur, then foist it on his unsuspecting fellow de-constructionists, illustrates another key to understanding the oeuvre.... an inscrutably dry, mischievous sense of humour!"

Ellipsis? An exclamation mark? Who is editing this article? A twelve year old with a fondness for Oscar Wilde?

Another point: the phrase "a professional literary academic" is ridiculous. If someone is in fact an academic, it means that he or she is a functional part of what we call "academia" and is -therefore- professional. There are no "amateur" academics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.86.172.147 (talk) 27 November 2007

You're right, and I took that sentence out. I also did some more surgery on the article, notably removing the list of works. It seemed like unnecessary detail to me, overwhelming the informative-prose part of the article. I know that's a significant chunk of text to wipe out though, so I'm noting it here in case people disagree and want to put it back. Dreamyshade (talk) 09:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems bizarre to me to have an extensive list of "influences" (un-referenced at that!) and not a basic bibliography of the author's works in English. I have added this, in order of their publication in English translation, with the original German titles (where applicable) in parens. Note that the link to the Davidson bibliography is now seriously out of date. Darcykildare (talk) 20:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alma Mater[edit]

Surely, Sebald studied at the University of Fribourg in Switzerland, not at the University of Freiburg im Breisgau, Germany. Norvo (talk) 01:26, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He studied at both universities.--78.54.212.112 (talk) 18:37, 13 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In The Guardian's obituary it is noted that "Sebald studied German literature at Freiburg University, taking his degree in 1965." The same source notes that "In 1966, Sebald was appointed "lektor" at the University of Manchester." In an article "Out of the Shadows" in Times Higher Education, Uwe Schütte, a former student, states that "Sebald left his native country in 1965, aged 21, and spent a year studying in medieval Fribourg in Switzerland." And according to a Guardian profile "Recovered memories" by Maya Jaggi: "While Sebald was at Freiburg University in 1965, the Frankfurt trial of Auschwitz personnel began"; later noting that "After studying German literature in French-speaking Switzerland, Sebald came to Manchester University as a language assistant in 1966." His obituary in the New York Times states that after studying at Freiburg "After two years, he moved to Switzerland. When he was 21, he left for England, where he became a lecturer at the University of Manchester." According to Sebald himself in an interview with James Wood in New York City in July of 1997 published in the Brick literary journal "I left Germany when I was twenty-one, for the simple reason that I found it was impossible, at Freiburg University, as it then was, in the early sixties, to pursue what I was interested in"; he explains "It is something that one doesn’t really understand very well now, but in the early 1960s the German departments in German universities were staffed, at the senior level at any rate, by people who had received their training in the 1930s, who had done their doctorates in the 1930s, who had very frequently not just toed the line but actively contributed, through their writing, to that culture of xenophobia which had developed from the early years of this century in that country" Tidaleffect (talk) 21:07, 31 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

According to Sebald's homepage at the University of East Anglia (archived by the Internet Archive at "https://web.archive.org/web/20010720162731/http://www.uea.ac.uk/eas/People/sebald/sebald.htm"), he held a Licence ès Lettres degree from Fribourg. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 21:40, 31 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An interview published on December 11, 2001 by Arthur Lubow for the New York Times may have the most the most clear description of his undergraduate studies. It states that he had attended the university in Freiburg "where the conservative faculty had been intellectually molded under the Third Reich. He said he had a sense 'that something was not acknowledged.'" going on to note that "After two years he moved to the French-speaking part of Switzerland for a final year at the University of Fribourg." -- Tidaleffect (talk) 21:48, 31 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See my notes below (after more research) that clarify some of the above questions about his studies, degrees, and timelines. The current article might have factual and citation errors around this section of his life. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 16:14, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

University of Hamburg[edit]

The article doesn't mention Sebald's time at the University of Hamburg. The German article states that he earned his professoral degree there.--78.51.201.160 (talk) 19:27, 10 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Factual inaccuracies and citation errors[edit]

I have noticed some factual inaccuracies in this article: that he was one of three children; that from "1948 to 1963, he lived in Sonthofen"; these are contradicted by interviews and other authoritative sources. I am concerned there could be more factual errors and am looking for citations for the various other assertions in the "life" section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tidaleffect (talk • contribs) 19:58, 31 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

His time in Sonthofen was supported with a citation; why did you remove it? Sebald lived in Sonthofen from 1948 or 1952 until 1963 and attended primary school there; there are abundant references for this. I am concerned in your 14 edits there could be more erroneous removal of cited facts or additions of howlers like "in 1967 the three-year-old Sebald visited Munich". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Why do you think that citation is to an authoritative source? -- Tidaleffect (talk) 06:25, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The citation you note is contradicted by Sebald himself in an interview discussing his childhood: "Wertach was a village of about a thousand inhabitants, in a valley covered in snow for five months a year. It was a silent place. I was brought up largely by my grandfather, because my father only returned from a prisoner-of-war camp in 1947, and worked in the nearest small town, so I hardly ever saw him. I lived in that place until I was about eight." This is from the Guardian interview by Maya Jaggi published Dec 21, 2001. He says he lived in Wertach until he was 8 years old. In 1948 he would have been 3 or 4. It also disagrees with the source I've quoted below which says he moved to Sonthofen at the end of 1952 -- Tidaleffect (talk) 12:17, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
On visiting Munich in 1947. This is stated in his obituary in the New York Times. "He first visited Munich in 1947 as a 3-year-old with his parents. While their village in the foothills of the Bavarian Alps escaped the war undamaged, Allied bombing devastated Munich. 'You might have a few buildings standing intact and between them an avalanche of scree that had come down,' he recalled. 'And people didn't comment on it.' He would not have thought to ask about the debris, and if he had, his parents would have evaded the question. 'It seemed to me the natural condition of cities,' he said, 'houses between mountains of rubble.'" I don't think it is essential to include this, but it seems to me to have equivalent standing as the sentence in the current page, "Sebald was shown images of the Holocaust while at school in Oberstdorf and recalled that no one knew how to explain what they had just seen", which is given without context and is also derived from interviews with him. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 12:49, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've been looking for better citations on Sonthofen. There is a footnote in Chapter 2 of the Book "Saturn's Moons" which appears authoritative on this: "Max's family -- together with his widowed maternal grandfather Josef Egelhofer (1872-1956) ... moved from the Alpine village of Wertach, where Max was born in 1944, to a new flat in the larger, but still very rural town of Sonthofen on 16 December 1952 so that his father could start work there as a civilian employee of the local police. Before attending secondary school in Obertsdorf, to the south of Sonthofen... Max spent one and a half years in the Volksschule in Sontofen (1953-54) and two years (1954-56) at the Catholic Gymnasium Sankt Maria Stern in Immendstadt, just to the north of Sonthofen" This would support 1952-1963 for Sonthofen. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 05:24, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any source for the claim in the current version of the page that he had two siblings and not three? A profile in the Guardian by Maggi Jaya published Sept 2001 says that he had three sisters "Winfried Georg Maximilian Sebald was born the only son, with three sisters, of Rosa, daughter of a "country copper", and Georg, from a family of glassmakers in the Bavarian forest." -- Tidaleffect (talk) 16:47, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy to revert my changes (and have done so) until they can be discussed here. I do think he's an important enough writer that this page should be factually accurate, have a reasonable depth of information, and be a useful starting point for learning about his life, and not contain promotional material. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 05:45, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think the current section on his education is confusing and possibly inaccurate. Is there support for him having studied English Literature as well as German Literature? I can't find any sources for this. He submitted his master's thesis in 1968 (a record can be found here: https://www.librarysearch.manchester.ac.uk/primo-explore/fulldisplay?docid=44MAN_ALMA_DS21167457670001631&context=L&vid=MU_NUI&search_scope=BLENDED&tab=local&lang=en_US) and this date is also noted in the introduction section of an authoritative secondary source "Saturn's Moons". It seems clear he went to Manchester as a "Lektor" in 1966 for two years to teach German and work on his Master's thesis. Where does the assertion that he was a "Lektor" at Manchester during the entire period from 1966-1969 come from? Was this broken by his teaching in Switzerland? The introduction to "Saturn's Moon's" says he returned to Manchester to work as a Lektor again after teaching for a year in Switzerland. We know his Master's dissertation was developed and published as a book in 1969. And in 1970 he went to East Anglia. The current assertions of this section don't make sense with this timeline as far as I can tell. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 06:18, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've found a citation to support that he studied English and German at Freiburg and giving a more exact timeline: "Max then studied German and English for four semesters at the Alberg-Ludswigs Universitat in Freiburg im Breisgau, from autumn 1963 to summer 1965." This is on page 45 of Saturn's Moons. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 15:19, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A chronology in the same book records "October 1965-summer 1966: studies at the University of Fribourg (Switzerland)" on page 623. The same page of this chronology also has a note "autumn 1966-summer 1968: Lektor at the University of Manchester"; this source could probably resolve the questions about the timelines above. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 15:37, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article cites the Guardian obituary written by Homberger for its assertion that Sebald received his degree from Fribourg in 1965. However the source says nothing of the sort. The information here appears to be correct (actually perhaps not - see below), but the citation used to support it says something entirely different: "Sebald studied German literature at Freiburg University, taking his degree in 1965" -- Tidaleffect (talk) 12:35, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is there also an error on the current page here? it says "Sebald studied German and English literature first at the University of Freiburg and then at the University of Fribourg, where he received a degree in 1965" -- Tidaleffect (talk) 15:49, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
According to page 623 of the Saturn's Moons chronology: in July 1966 he receives his licence es lettres degree (summa cum laude) -- Tidaleffect (talk) 15:49, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My view is this article needs to be fact checked line by line. Many of its assertions appear to be close to the truth, but don't quite hit the mark. The obituaries are possibly confused on some details and might not be fully reliable. For the moment I can't continue doing this, but may try to return to it when I have time. It would be easier if I had a complete copy of the "Saturn's Moons" book. In the meantime I am leaving it as it is so as not to do any harm. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 16:01, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Other issues with the life section[edit]

Why is there a reference to the page of a documentary filmmaker Grant Gee prominently featured in the life section? This seems like promotion of that page and inappropriate for a section on Sebald's life. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 16:30, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"The Holocaust and post-war Germany loom large in his work." At best this doesn't seem to belong in the life section, but in a section on literary themes. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 16:30, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Issues with the work section[edit]

From the page: "His concern with the Holocaust is expressed in several books delicately tracing his own biographical connections with Jews." Is this statement a confusion of the fictional narrator of the Emigrants and Austerlitz with the real person, W.G. Sebald, who is the topic of this article? With no citation this sentence should be removed. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 20:39, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

From the page, referring to his novels: "They also have a dry and mischievous sense of humour." While Sebald the person was well known to have had a sense of humor as he was described by those who knew him, this statement is an interpretation of the tone of his novels which could reasonably be disagreed with - it is hardly objective. It ought to be at least presented as interpretation with a citation as to the source and context of the interpretation rather than a statement of a concrete fact about his literary work. Without a citation to support it, it should be removed. -- Tidaleffect (talk) 20:39, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Awful summary[edit]

This article seems so poorly put together, but specifically one thing that crosses me is that there's no explination of the movie. In fact it links to a subsection of this article! Not a single explanation of the film, just a "yeah it's related to the album." But the album was made for the movie! Nothing about the movie is made clear at all! Dare I say it's almost pathetic. 174.92.103.19 (talk) 05:24, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What movie are you talking about? This article is about a German novelist, who was not involved in movie making. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 06:05, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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