User talk:Annaflagg
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February 2014[edit]
Hello, Annaflagg. We welcome your contributions to Wikipedia, but if you are affiliated with some of the people, places or things you have written about in the article Saleh v. Bush, you may have a conflict of interest or close connection to the subject.
All editors are required to comply with Wikipedia's neutral point of view content policy. People who are very close to a subject often have a distorted view of it, which may cause them to inadvertently edit in ways that make the article either too flattering or too disparaging. People with a close connection to a subject are not absolutely prohibited from editing about that subject, but they need to be especially careful about ensuring their edits are verified by reliable sources and writing with as little bias as possible.
If you are very close to a subject, here are some ways you can reduce the risk of problems:
- Avoid or exercise great caution when editing or creating articles related to you, your organization, or its competitors, as well as projects and products they are involved with.
- Be cautious about deletion discussions. Everyone is welcome to provide information about independent sources in deletion discussions, but avoid advocating for deletion of articles about your competitors.
- Avoid linking to the Wikipedia article or website of your organization in other articles (see Wikipedia:Spam).
- Exercise great caution so that you do not accidentally breach Wikipedia's content policies.
Please familiarize yourself with relevant content policies and guidelines, especially those pertaining to neutral point of view, verifiability of information, and autobiographies.
For information on how to contribute to Wikipedia when you have a conflict of interest, please see our frequently asked questions for organizations. Based on the twitter account linked to on your user page, you're actively involved with the plaintiffs in this case, and it appears to be the only subject of your editing. Please be sure that your editing of the article remains neutral, and that when considering referring to it in other articles that you are not giving the case undue weight. Thanks. Wieno (talk) 13:59, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Wieno, thanks for taking the time to leave some feedback on the Saleh v. Bush page! Below are my thoughts on the various points you raised:
- I agree with your point about needing to be careful when linking to other articles – this is my first Wikipedia page, and after reading the suggestions about linking to ensure your article is not an orphan, I felt the need to go through and link to whatever seemed somewhat reasonable. But given my lack of experience with linking and with Wikipedia in general, I didn't have a clear sense of when it was appropriate to link, and I agree that I may in my own mind have given undue weight to Saleh v. Bush. From now on I will not link Saleh v. Bush in other articles (unless the link is completely uncontroversial), and I will leave it to the Wikipedia community to fill in links.
- In response to your comment about conflict of interest – while it is true that I became more active in actions related to Saleh v. Bush in the last couple weeks, before writing the article I read extensively through Wikipedia's policy (and talked to Wikipedia members and staff), which acknowledges the value that people who are connected to a subject matter can have as article writers, as long as they acknowledge the relationship, and remain neutral in their contributions – both of which I have been careful to do. My motivation for writing this article was that I felt strongly that it is a notable event that I had enough knowledge about to write a reasonable and comprehensive article, and no one else had written one yet.
- About neutrality – I was extremely careful to write in a completely neutral manner according Wikipedia policy. So, as long as you are not arguing that either a) the subject is not notable enough to have a Wikipedia article, or that b) there are specific parts that are not neutral or are misleading in any way, I don't think there's a neutrality problem. Beyond the fact that I obviously believe that the subject is notable according to Wikipedia standards, I also ran it by several Wikipedians who agreed, so let me know if you think otherwise. And please definitely let me know if there are any specific parts of Saleh v. Bush that are not neutral, I would of course really want to hear about anything of that nature so I could improve the article if needed.
- About primary sources – I made a concerted effort to cite every statement with credible sources that are not, as you suggested in the warning on the page, primary sources. If you look carefully at the citations, documents such as the official Saleh v. Bush legal complaint (which is what I assume you're referring to as a primary source) are only cited are proof of what they themselves say (i.e., "The complaint claims xyz..."). When citing any actual facts referred to in the complaint, credible outside sources are used (i.e., quotations from a letter written by PNAC members to then President Clinton are validated by a link to the letter itself written by PNAC, not the complaint's statement that it exists).
- About original research – none of this is my original work or research. And if it's relevant, I have met the lawyer who is prosecuting the case and who wrote the complaint, but I did not help him in that work in any way. (The type of work that I have done is signing a petition supporting that the case be allowed to go to court, participating in delivering that petition, etc.) I believe in the cause and I talk to people about it, try to spread word about it, and I will probably continue to do that type of work, writing and sharing my personal opinion in non–Wikipedia contexts. But I in no way helped with the research that is discussed in this page.
- Merging – I am also fine with your suggestion to merge the Inder Comar page into this one, though I'm not sure if I am qualified to make that decision. I didn't write or contribute to that page, and I don't feel like I have enough experience to be in a position to decide whether Comar meets Wikipedia's notability standards.
- I think that covers most of your comments, thanks again for your feedback! I'd be happy to discuss more if you still have concerns. I'll wait a bit to hear back from you, and if everything is fine, I'll probably take the warnings off the page. Thanks, Annaflagg 8 February 2014
- Thanks for your very polite response! I don't want to get too in-depth on the content discussion here, because content discussions should probably be on the article's talk page where they're more accessible to anyone interested in editing. I agree that the lawsuit itself is likely notable given that it's had coverage in a number of independent secondary sources. I also think that you've been very careful to maintain a neutral tone, for which I commend you. And I understand your desire to have more links to the article (you may want to add it under the 'see also' section in Nixon v. Fitzgerald).
- I guess all three of the issues for me could be combined into saying that the article currently reads like a very complaint-focused secondary source. About 80% of the article focuses on laying out the specifics of the complaint, with links to other primary sources (letters, etc.) that would likely be used as evidence for the complaint. That's where you can start falling into the synthesis trap, because you can start synthesizing a narrative out of primary sources, and that can make the article read much more like a secondary source. If a letter was sent in the 90s, Wikipedia can't use that letter as a source to synthesize the opinion that the letter is evidence of intent to invade Iraq before the start of the Bush presidency. On the neutrality area, again, we have about 80% of the article talking about the complaint and a couple lines at the very end talking about the motion to dismiss, without anything close to a similar level of depth (and that motion doesn't just include the Westfall Act; it also talks about justicable questions, etc). Realistically a neutral, tertiary source about this case should probably give a brief overview of the complaint, an overview of the defence, and a history of the case's progress so far. I don't want to just leave the tags up there, so if I have a chunk of an hour or two where I can heavily clean up the article into (what I at least would consider) a more balanced and neutral overview I'll do it and then you can tell me if you think what I create is fair. Wieno (talk) 03:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
- Hi Wieno, thanks for your response. So I think we can agree that there aren't major conflict of interest, neutrality, original research, or primary sources problems, and that our main concern now is amount of the article that is spent on the plaintiff side versus the defendant side. That is just a difference of opinion between us on weight for the two sides, which we can work out – not a case of attempted advertising, or lying, or talking about original research, etc. Given that, I'm going to go ahead and remove the warnings, and I'll be happy to continue to work with you to improve the balanced nature of the article.
- Specifically, I understand your point of the larger narrative being driven by the complaint – that being said, it's kind of the point of the article to explain the case that is being made against the defendants, which is a narrative much less told and less known than the other side (which most of us are old enough to remember hearing). For instance, the evidence detailed in the lawsuit is not even close to as well known as claims from the Bush administration that Iraq was connected with Al–Qaeda (which many people still believe was the case). Therefore, in order to educate the reader as well as demonstrate the notability of this subject, it is essential to make known its major arguments that make it a valid lawsuit (as opposed to many other such attempts that never made it to hearing).
- So that's the reason that the article is complaint–heavy, and why I think doing major restructuring or cuts, such as for instance removing the sections on the different types of evidence being presented, would be wrong. However, I completely agree with you that both sides of the story should be told, and I would be all for going through and filling in more from the Administration's defense. In fact, maybe a good compromise would be adding in more content detailing their specific responses to the different evidence points in their relevant sections, (in the cases where they have responded), as well as making additional sections about whether it's a political question, and whether this court has jurisdiction, etc. That would give significantly more weight to the other side, and should provide more of a balanced view, which I agree is a great suggestion for improving the article.
- The only thing I didn't understand was your point about the letter from PNAC to Clinton from the 90s – why is it not ok to state that this letter, which the reader can look up and read, says that members of PNAC urged regime change? It is actually very important that this happened before the Bush presidency, and that is how it is presented – it is used as evidence that members of PNAC publicly pushed for regime change before they were in office, and therefore can not be covered by the argument that they were acting within the scope of their employment, since their employment had not begun yet. This is crucial to the lawsuit being valid.
- Ok I think that's it for now! Let me know if that makes sense. Thanks again for your feedback, and I'll get some time together this week to spend on adding more content from the defense side. Your participation is welcome if you have time as well. Thanks again!
- I'm fine removing the POV tag from the article, but I'm going to restore the other three. The fact that the coverage in the article is so plaintiff-tiled is a neutrality issue. And while the PNAC letter may be important to the claim, Wikipedia can't use the letter itself as a primary source to lend support to the claim. Basically the article is replicating a lot of the original research from the claim itself to posit conclusions based on primary sources. It's also not Wikipedia's place to correct perceived imbalances in mainstream coverage of different viewpoints by giving undue weight to lesser-covered viewpoints. From your perspective the administration's arguments for the war may be overcovered compared to the lawsuit's perspective because of the power of the presidency. From another perspective, someone may believe it's because the lawsuit is frivolous or clearly without merit. While it may be unfortunate from a social justice perspective, Wikipedia essentially adopts the biases of reliable secondary sources. If a particular viewpoint is not widely covered in reliable secondary sources, then guidelines say it should not be widely covered in Wikipedia. Per WP:UNDUE, "Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject."
- In any event, I'm less concerned about representation of the defendant's side on the factual basis of the claim (i.e. was the Iraq war invasion a crime of aggression) and more about the procedural hurdles that the DOJ has thrown up in the motion to dismiss. Also let's remember that we don't yet know if this case is going to go to an actual, final hearing. The motion to dismiss is in a couple months and if it's successful then the court will never rule on the substance of the factual allegations. Anyhow, I'd ask that you leave the template up until we can come to a consensus about the issues on the talk page. Cheers. Wieno (talk) 05:33, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
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Note: All columns in this table are sortable, allowing you to rearrange the table so the articles most interesting to you are shown at the top. All images have mouse-over popups with more information. For more information about the columns and categories, please consult the documentation and please get in touch on SuggestBot's talk page with any questions you might have.
SuggestBot picks articles in a number of ways based on other articles you've edited, including straight text similarity, following wikilinks, and matching your editing patterns against those of other Wikipedians. It tries to recommend only articles that other Wikipedians have marked as needing work. We appreciate that you have signed up to receive suggestions regularly; your contributions make Wikipedia better — thanks for helping!
If you have feedback on how to make SuggestBot better, please let us know on SuggestBot's talk page. Regards from Nettrom (talk), SuggestBot's caretaker. -- SuggestBot (talk) 12:21, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot[edit]
Note: All columns in this table are sortable, allowing you to rearrange the table so the articles most interesting to you are shown at the top. All images have mouse-over popups with more information. For more information about the columns and categories, please consult the documentation and please get in touch on SuggestBot's talk page with any questions you might have.
SuggestBot picks articles in a number of ways based on other articles you've edited, including straight text similarity, following wikilinks, and matching your editing patterns against those of other Wikipedians. It tries to recommend only articles that other Wikipedians have marked as needing work. We appreciate that you have signed up to receive suggestions regularly; your contributions make Wikipedia better — thanks for helping!
If you have feedback on how to make SuggestBot better, please let us know on SuggestBot's talk page. Regards from Nettrom (talk), SuggestBot's caretaker. -- SuggestBot (talk) 12:35, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot[edit]
Note: All columns in this table are sortable, allowing you to rearrange the table so the articles most interesting to you are shown at the top. All images have mouse-over popups with more information. For more information about the columns and categories, please consult the documentation and please get in touch on SuggestBot's talk page with any questions you might have.
SuggestBot picks articles in a number of ways based on other articles you've edited, including straight text similarity, following wikilinks, and matching your editing patterns against those of other Wikipedians. It tries to recommend only articles that other Wikipedians have marked as needing work. We appreciate that you have signed up to receive suggestions regularly; your contributions make Wikipedia better — thanks for helping!
If you have feedback on how to make SuggestBot better, please let us know on SuggestBot's talk page. Regards from Nettrom (talk), SuggestBot's caretaker. -- SuggestBot (talk) 12:23, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot[edit]
Note: All columns in this table are sortable, allowing you to rearrange the table so the articles most interesting to you are shown at the top. All images have mouse-over popups with more information. For more information about the columns and categories, please consult the documentation and please get in touch on SuggestBot's talk page with any questions you might have.
SuggestBot picks articles in a number of ways based on other articles you've edited, including straight text similarity, following wikilinks, and matching your editing patterns against those of other Wikipedians. It tries to recommend only articles that other Wikipedians have marked as needing work. We appreciate that you have signed up to receive suggestions regularly; your contributions make Wikipedia better — thanks for helping!
If you have feedback on how to make SuggestBot better, please let us know on SuggestBot's talk page. Regards from Nettrom (talk), SuggestBot's caretaker. -- SuggestBot (talk) 12:25, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Articles you might like to edit, from SuggestBot[edit]
Note: All columns in this table are sortable, allowing you to rearrange the table so the articles most interesting to you are shown at the top. All images have mouse-over popups with more information. For more information about the columns and categories, please consult the documentation and please get in touch on SuggestBot's talk page with any questions you might have.
SuggestBot picks articles in a number of ways based on other articles you've edited, including straight text similarity, following wikilinks, and matching your editing patterns against those of other Wikipedians. It tries to recommend only articles that other Wikipedians have marked as needing work. We appreciate that you have signed up to receive suggestions regularly; your contributions make Wikipedia better — thanks for helping!
If you have feedback on how to make SuggestBot better, please let us know on SuggestBot's talk page. Regards from Nettrom (talk), SuggestBot's caretaker. -- SuggestBot (talk) 12:27, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Wikipedia arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 17:04, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Notification about disabling the Wikipedia collections tool[edit]
Thank you for using the collections feature in Wikipedia beta! Due to technical and moderation issues, we will be turning off this experimental feature. Your collections will be available for viewing and export until March 1st. If you would like to save your collection as links on a special Wikipedia page, please fill out the following form. If you are interested in giving your feedback about Wikipedia Collections please do so here.
Thanks,
Jon Katz
Product manager, Wikimedia Foundation
Jkatz (WMF) (talk) 23:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)