User talk:G.Larson

The Finished Mystery

I have left a note on the talk page of the Jehovah's Witnesses article regarding your edits about The Finished Mystery. The 1955 Watchtower is clearly an unreliable source on which to base your statement. It is a primary source and gives a false view of the origins of The Finished Mystery. BlackCab (talk) 22:28, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

G.Larson, please stop edit warring at the article, Jehovah's Witnesses. It is obvious that there is no consensus for your changes. If you believe this to be in error, you now need to discuss at the article's talk page. You are already in breach of the 3 revert rule.--Jeffro77 (talk) 23:53, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Your recent edits

Hello and welcome to Wikipedia. When you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, please be sure to sign your posts. There are two ways to do this. Either:

1. Add four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment; or
2. With the cursor positioned at the end of your comment, click on the signature button ( or ) located above the edit window.

This will automatically insert a signature with your username or IP address and the time you posted the comment. This information is necessary to allow other editors to easily see who wrote what and when.

Thank you. --SineBot (talk) 01:52, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Nazi Germany

You asked:

BlackCab, this question has been on my mind for a while. You'd posted: " I felt a great deal of pity for the rank and file members who continued to obey Rutherford's instructions to keep harassing the government, which in turn intensified their persecution." Since it was the letters of protest from Witnesses in other countries that prompted Hitler's vow to exterminate the German Witnesses, would if have been better in your mind for the Witnesses in the rest of the world to ignore what was going on in Nazi Germany? Would it have been better if they had not published the plans and locations of concentration camps very early in their existence, even though the world mostly ignored the information? And would it have been better for the Witnesses in Nazi-controlled Europe to just go with the flow as most people there did? Just wondering.

The international telegram campaign of October 1934 was just one of many attempts by Rutherford to needle Hitler and provoke further confrontation. Someone called Karl Wittig claimed to have heard Hitler utter the threat that "this brood will be exterminated" after he was told the country's telegraph offices were being flooded with messages threatening "God will destroy you and your national party", but while it infuriated Hitler, it's doubtful that telegram campaign alone had much to do with his long-term drive to break the will of the Witnesses.

I mentioned earlier that I wrote most of the Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in Nazi Germany article; it was very interesting documenting the sequence of action and reaction between the two opposing forces -- Nazism and Rutherford's "Theocracy". Each acted, the other reacted, which in turn prompted another reaction. Possibly the most interesting part of the whole article is the section on "Causes of persecution and Nazi motives". It addresses the question Why the Witnesses? After all, the Nazis also initially took action again many other small religious groups. The comments from each of the scholars there are revealing: the Witnesses wanted to make a stand, but ultimately their efforts were doomed, because the Nazis always had the greater power. Deliberately insulting a madman like Hitler was no more sensible than poking an angry bear with a stick.

To your question about whether I think JWs in the US and elsewhere in Europe should have ignored what was going on: they had earlier used diplomatic efforts to gain some liberty, with some success. That could have been more successful than setting out to provoke, insult and enrage a militant dictator. Rutherford's pride and ego played a major part in what happened in this regard. Continuing to blanket the country with pamphlets lambasting Hitler must have made him feel good. But the consequences were terrible, and it was the poor German JWs who suffered. It's doubtful the Watch Tower Society would adopt the same tactics today in places like Singapore or Georgia: they are more likely to keep their heads down and do what they can (as was directed in August 1933 and again in late 1934, in fact) and continue to use legal and diplomatic avenues to achieve their aims.

I'm not sure not what you're referring to when discussing the publication of location of concentration camps. I'm sure military authorities were already well aware of what was going on behind the Nazi border; for their own reasons they chose not to act at the time. BlackCab (talk) 03:24, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. Just two fairly short comments: 1. Few outside of Germany were aware of the camps as early as the Witnesses were, according to information I've seen. Witnesses were forced to help build them, and the plans were smuggled out and published in the Society's magazines very early.

2. Regarding the telegram campaign to Germany: 20,000 telegrams were sent on one day in 1934. I doubt it was yet apparent to the world that Hitler was a madman, though it soon would be.

Letter writing campaigns have been used before and since. There was one to Canada in 1928, one to Jordan in 1959 and others more recently. There were two to Malawi in 1968 and 1976. I found a newspaper article about the second one online here: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19760625&id=E6xVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=K-EDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6681,6610364 There was one to Burundi in 1990. There's an article here: http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1990-01-05/news/9001170708_1_jehovah-witnesses-religious-freedom-pierre-buyoya Some of them were successful. The one in Jordan helped the situation. And I recall reading years ago that persecution desisted in one of the African-continent countries when the country's leadership realized that people outside their country knew what was going on. I just can't say for sure which country without spending more time than its worth looking for the information. The second newspaper article link above brings out such campaigns have been helpful for the Jewish community under Soviet rule. G.Larson (talk) 08:24, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

BlackCab wrote: "Rutherford's pride and ego played a major part in what happened in this regard. Continuing to blanket the country with pamphlets lambasting Hitler must have made him feel good. "

The personal letters written by Rutherford to those within the faith do not appear to come from someone who was egotistical. Rutherford apparently did have a "Driver" personality, which was quite a change from Russell's apparent "Amiable/Analytical" one. I can see how some might misinterpret Rutherford's "Driver" qualities as egotism. But there's nothing wrong with being a "Driver"-type. They are good people that a person wants on his side. They will fight both for you and for the causes they believe in. Various books that discuss human personality traits support that last statement. I appreciate and admire many "Driver-types", though at times they can be difficult for me--personally--to understand. So I don't see any outsized ego in Rutherford in this matter, particularly in view of the fact that such campaigns have continued to the present day--and, in view of the fact that egotistical people do get weeded out of the religion over time. Russell's own faith in Rutherford's abilities speaks volumes. Russell knew and understood him far better than most would. G.Larson (talk) 00:44, 20 April 2013 (UTC)