User talk:Keresaspa/Archive 4

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Brian Attley

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Not a copyvio as stated on article's talk page. Flaming pest this bot! Keresaspa (talk) 23:36, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Brian Attley

You make a good point and that is why I will move the article Brian Attley from the admin backlog — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gabriele449 (talk • contribs) 23:50, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I make no bones about the website being a source but there are very ways to present football statistics other than the way I did, which is also the standard across Wikipedia. Keresaspa (talk) 23:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

List of Nazis A–E

Was this a cut and paste move? Where is the edit history? This [1] makes it look like you typed in all the information yourself, then hit "save." If other editors added information previously, then this violates the intellectual property rules for Wikipedia. Edison (talk) 04:33, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. List of Nazis was becoming too long and was therefore split into four by me to make it easier to edit but the history of that article is available at the article itself which remains as a disambiguation. The original article was never moved - List of Nazis A–E is a separate page forked from the original. And, with respect, I've been a regular contributor since 2004 I really don't need lessons on the rules. Keresaspa (talk) 04:44, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
As an addendum I already explained what I was doing on List of Nazis talk page when the article was split into four over a month ago. Keresaspa (talk) 18:53, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

John McMichael

Hello, I have recently expanded the John McMichael article that you created back in 2005. There are a few allegations that require inline citations. Would you happen to have sources to back them up? I am specifically referring to the claim that McMichael was put in charge of a UFF campaign to bomb Dublin after the signing of the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985. I haven't yet found a Reliable Source which verifies this claim. Thank you for your help.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:14, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Done Keresaspa (talk) 02:40, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a million. Recently I removed the allegation that he was a hitman as I couldn't find anything to back it up.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:39, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

John McMichael---again

Would you happen to know McMichael's exact date of birth, where he went to school, and how many children he had? I am trying to add more personal biography to his article. Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:26, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

No idea about DOB or school but he had two children, Gary McMichael and Saul, according to Gary McMichael, Ulster Voice: In Search of Common Ground in Northern Ireland, Roberts Rhinehart, 1999, p. 27. Keresaspa (talk) 23:01, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Are Gary and Saul both by McMichael's wife, Shirley, or was McMichael married to two different women? Thank you for all your help.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Not sure about that - Gary doesn't mention his mother at all in the book, although it's more a political testament than an autobiography. Still the article looks very good now that you've overhauled it. I've been hit the wall recently on here and let some things slide a bit but I think it might be time for a comeback as I still have a lot of unfinished things to take care of. Keresaspa (talk) 00:04, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I discovered on Google Books that Gary and Saul were half-brothers, so obviously Gary was the son of McMichael's first marriage. I wish I could locate an exact DOB for him. The problem with Google Books is that so many crucial pages are missing! You should make a comeback. I have writen a few articles on loyalist paramilitaries such as Robin Jackson, Davy Payne and Harris Boyle to name a few. Another pair of eyes would be great!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:15, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Wow, Robin Jackson in particular. They must be near good standard already. I'll certainly have a look and see if I can add anything but excellent work so far. And I definitely share your frustations over Google Books - it's a great resource but when it gives a limited view it can be annoying. Keresaspa (talk) 17:43, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Jackson is covered in a lot of publictions, especially the Barron Report and John Weir's affidavit. Unfortunately there is nothing mentioned regarding his personal life-whether he had a wife, kids, etc. Google Books offers bits and pieces, but it has so many missing pages, that it's hard to use as a reference. Dillon's Dirty War, from which I gleaned much info on Billy Hanna, is no longer available on Google. Robin Jackson was quite a diabolical character; a pity Internet has no photos of him. I did a lot of editing on the Miami Showband killings article. I shudder when I think that those poor guys fell into the clutches of Jackson and his gang.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I have now checked and I'm afraid I drew a blank too regarding his personal life as well as photos. He certainly was a heck of a frightnening character though - it's easy to forget sometimes some of the really horrific stuff that went down here. Keresaspa (talk) 00:25, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Tommy Lyttle

I just created a new article on Tommy Lyttle. At the moment it's still under construction. If you'd like to make a "comeback" and collaborate with me on this, I think we could create a good article. Unfortunately the Peter Taylor book doesn't say much about him. Seeing as you have the McDonald & Cusack book, I think the article could be fleshed out a lot with your help. Lyttle was quite a character, but I just cannot find much concrete info as regards dates, etc.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:57, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll get to it ASAP. Keresaspa (talk) 17:43, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a million. I found some stuff on him but the article needs a lot more info especially regarding his role in the Pat Finucane murder, the Brian Nelson affair and the Stevens Enquiry.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:50, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

It looks fantastic!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:34, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

I reckon we've done well there. I may have left a couple of spelling goofs in but I'm a terrible typer :) Keresaspa (talk) 19:17, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Your help is most appreciated; thanks to your additions, the article has been fleshed out and definitely looks better. Thanks again!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Frankie Curry

Great new article! You managed to create a good, informative page in one day-I have assessed it as B-Class. It deserves the rating.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:19, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Would you happen to have info on the claim by Gerry Adams that John McMichael sent Brian Nelson to procur arms in South Africa?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:32, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

I already found a source for it-from the Pat Finucane Centre!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:40, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for assessing - actually you inspired me to do it as I came across Curry's name when adding my little bits to Tommy Lyttle and realised that he wasn't no here yet. Keresaspa (talk) 19:27, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

And your article on Curry inspired me to create one on John Bingham (loyalist). Actually I remember very well when he was gunned down as I was living in Dublin at the time.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:12, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Bingham too - we're getting through them rightly now! I've spent my whole life in Belfast so most of these names chime with me right away. I'll see if I can add anything from McDonald and Cusack's book on the UVF later but the article looks pretty good anyway. Keresaspa (talk) 19:29, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 21:34, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Wow

What a good article you created on Stephen McKeag, it has so much information on him. I believe he was madder than Johnny Adair. And the photo you took of the mural is perfect for the article. Congratulations.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:50, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I have just nominated Stephen McKeag as a DYK as it deserves to be on the Main Page. The hook I used was when he sang Follow the Yellow Brick Road. Do you think you could provide another link to that claim? Thanks.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:04, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I need a precise ref for the part where he sang Follow the Yellow Brick Road. I found a Guardian article, but it just says he shouted it.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:22, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I can't find an online source - the only one I have is McDonald & Cusack's book on page 227 where it says "...McKeag and his driver sped back to the Shankill through Lanark Way, singing their favourite tune Follow the Yellow Brick Road".

That's perfect. Thanks.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

And funnily enough I only created that article because I was round that area taking pictures for something else yesterday and I happened to have a spare one of McKeag's mural going that I felt like using! Keresaspa (talk) 18:17, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I notice you wrote it late at night. You sure did a good job on it.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:21, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I can get very creative once insomnia kicks in :D Took me longer than I expected though so I still have to do what I promised on John Bingham (loyalist). Keresaspa (talk) 18:23, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Ever seen this clip?

Have you ever seen this clip: here? I wonder who the faces belong to? I have an idea the guy issuing the orders at the beginning of the clip is Tommy Lyttle.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:17, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I think that was Lyttle too whilst the close-up of the guy with the dark glasses, parka and big moustache was Andy Tyrie. I recognise the fair-haired one shown at the sime time but can't place his name. The thickset guy in the balaclava, bomber jacket and Jeans was Johnny Adair - I remember seeing that clip of UTV years ago and he was identified on the show. I know it wasn't the intention but I found the song really hilarious for some reason! Keresaspa (talk) 18:37, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

The blond guy is familiar to me as well. I have seen him before. I thought the guy in the Wombles anorak was Davy Payne.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:46, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

He has the look of Raymond Elder or one of his brothers but possibly looks a bit old as that part looks early to mid 70s. Keresaspa (talk) 01:10, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Judging by the clothes and hairstyles, I'd put the year as 1973 or 1974-certainly no later than 1975. Isn't that guy with the long hair, smoking a cigarete menacing? I wouldn't like to have been stopped by him in the street late at night! The last part of the clip was obviously taken in the 1990s during Adair's heyday.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:42, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

He does have a bit of Mean Streets or Taxi Driver vibe. And I remember the last clip being used on something like Spotlight or UTV Insight when it was about Johnny Adair so that one's pretty definite. Keresaspa (talk) 16:00, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

He's definitely rough looking. I'm really curious as to the identity of the two blond guys at the start of the clip as they both look very familiar. I believe that's also Tommy Lyttle directing the march.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:32, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

A shame comments have been disabled but I suppose videos about Northern Ireland from both sides always attract the headers! Keresaspa (talk) 17:17, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Last year, the comments were still there. They had turn--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:14, 4 April 2011 (UTC)ed into the usual insults, followed by threats. LOL. People should just be able to view it from a historical perspective. My God if Paisley and McGuinness can share jokes together, same with Mary McAleese and Jackie McDonald, surely one can watch the clip and not be compelled to make nasty comments and threats.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:28, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

If people could appreciate the importance of the internet as a historical record I reckon things would be a lot better - too many bored kids looking for attention unfortunately. Keresaspa (talk) 17:35, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. Oh, have you seen the old Shankill Road clip on YouTube? It was filmed in 1973 and shows people walking along the Shankill. Talk about a historical record!

I saw it the other night for the first time. I had been on the Shankill that same day and to be honest I recognised very little of what I had seen in the video - it's amazing how much of this town has become so different in such a comparatively short space of time. Keresaspa (talk) 18:19, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

The last time I was in Befast, I hardly recognised it. Even the city centre seemed differnet apart from its landmark City Hall. I have never been on the Shankill, but I've been to east Belfast, south Belfast, including Sandy Row (where I took a lot of photos, some of which I've uploaded to Wkipedia), the Falls Road, and of course the city centre. I remember back in 1986 having walked from the city centre, through Sandy Row, in order to get to Central Station, but somehow ended up in Botanic! By the way, when you get the chance could you look over Robin Jackson and see if you have any information in your books which could be added to it? Thanks a million! Oh, the Stephen McKeag hook has passed at DYK, so it should appear on the Main Page shortly!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:10, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm Ormeau Road born and bred and in my time here I have seen so much change - there used to a rugby stadium that is now houses, my Granny's house and the whole surrounding area is long demolished, the old peoples home my great aunt lived in is now a housing development, the gasworks has a bunch of new buildings and a fake lake, the area from Havelock House to Cromac Street is totally changed and even my own street used to be a cul de sac. Even Sandy Row, which looked pretty similar until recently, is starting to change dramatically the last time I was down. I like to walk about all areas of the city as I'm a bit of a rambler but don't care for the countryside but so much of it has changed totally from what I remember. I suppose in a way progress can be a good thing but they are in danger of stripping Belfast of its essential "Belfastness" and just making it into Anytown. And I'll definitely have a look at Robin Jackson (I did with John Bingham (loyalist) but you already had everything covered) and I'll be keeping an eye on that main page. I would have done Jackson sooner but I missed your comment above about it - I think I have The Dirty War in a cupboard somewhere so I'll fish it out. Keresaspa (talk) 18:11, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

I had a friend from the Ormeau Road. The last time I was in Belfast (2001), everything looked so different; it was sad. The street where I stayed back in 1981 - Pakenham Street in the Shaftesbury Square district - no longer exists. I couldn't find it. Here is a photo I took from the house's attic window. Wait till I upload it. Oh, right around the corner was a UDA club.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:10, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

There is still a Pakenham Street although it looks very different now - a lot of it has been taken over by the Donegal Pass police station whilst the other end now has a European Commission building. The houses too have all been changed - some have been partialy rebuilt and others demolished and rebuilt from scratch. Mind you every street in Belfast used to look like your picture but now, apart from a few bits of the Donegall Road and the council-owned bit of the Beersbridge Road, it has all been replaced. That whole area round Shaftesbury and the Pass is pretty different now as a lot of it is now used by the Chinese community. Heck even the Ivy Bar, which was the main place for dodgy goings in the Pass, has closed now whilst that whole area around the Gasworks is a business park full of call centres and the like. It really is unrecognisable now. Keresaspa (talk) 18:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

That reminds me. I visited Island Street in East Belfast. Are there any pre-WWII houses standing in that area? I saw some on the other side of a bridge that apeared to be pre-war, but would you happen to know if they are? I know east Belfast got hit hard during the Blitz, although not quite as hard as Antrim Road and the New Lodge area.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:19, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Oddly enough I was on Island Street only this week (like I said I spend a lot of time wandering about Belfast). Sad to report it is now all ugly 1980s council houses with a couple of very recent developments chucked. Any sign of the old houses is long gone unfortunately. The UDA murals are still in place though! Keresaspa (talk) 19:24, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Would there have been any old houses around in the 1970s? When I was in Island Street in 2001, it appeared to be staunch UVF territory. Here, I'll upload several pics I took. Does it still look like this?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:53, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

No it doesn't look like that any more. At the entrance from Dee Street now there is a wall of UDA/UFF murals that can be seen here and here. Next time I'm round that way (which will probably be next week sometime) I'll take some more and let you see how it looks. Keresaspa (talk) 20:09, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Great photos! I remember having seen a group of guys painting a UVF mural when I was there. I wonder why it's now UDA territory?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 04:38, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

The area as a whole has traditionally been UVF and is the main Progressive Unionist Party area but for whatever reason the groups seem to co-exist in east Belfast fairly easily. Within the whole Newtownards Road and surrounding area I have came across other murals for the UDA (here, here, here, here, here, here, UYM), some for the UVF (here, here, and related) and some for the Red Hand Commando (here, here and here). You'll need to click on some to see them as they offended somebody who couldn't differentiate between propaganda and historical record even though I have posted a bunch of IRA and INLA ones as well. Perhaps the lack of a divisive Johnny Adiar figure meant that it avoided the sort of wars that the Shankill had to put up with. Keresaspa (talk) 18:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

East Belfast

WOW! You are quite a photographer! You've taken excellent photos. As you say, the pics are for the preservation of Belfast history not political endorsement. I cannot believe there are some people who are too obtuse to recognise that obvious fact. Is that UVF mural I took in Island Street still there? I believe that the UVF and UDA of East Belfast were more moderate than their Shankill Road counterparts due as you say to the lack of a Johnny Adair leader, as well as the fact that East Belfast is a solid Protestant enclave without any adjacent nationalist areas; therefore not creating a siege mentality. Do you know who the UVF and UDA brigadiers of East Belfast were? East Belfast UVF man Billy Giles (from Island Street) was certainly of a different breed than Adair or Lenny Murphy! At least Giles felt remorse. I have a friend who lives in the Newtownards Road.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:52, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll be in Island Street tomorrow so I'll get a few pics whilst there. It has had a lot of redevelopment so the mural you saw might be gone but I'll keep my eyes open. And thanks for the kind words about my pics :) As for the east I think you make a good point about its location being solid Protestant in contrast to the enclave of the Shankill whilst its pretty bad odds for one road to get both Murphy and Adair! I also reckon the east had a man of some wisdom and a strong moderating influence in David Ervine and it's a pity that he isn't still around as he had a good way of cutting through the some of the bull that the more mainstream parties were dealing out during the peace process. As for Billy Giles he was a complex character and no mistake - in a less divided society guys like that probably would have ended up in working-class labour politics instead of paramilitarism. There were a few republicans like that too who, with more unity, could have made serious changes here but unfortunately the old sectarianism always got in the way. Keresaspa (talk) 18:55, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

There were, alas, many like Giles, on both sides of the religious/political divide. I believe that on the loyalist side the two most intelligent leaders were John McMichael, and as you said, David Ervine. As for the Republicans, it's a pity more were not like Danny Morrison. The Provisionals made their major error in allowing themselves to be led by Sean MacStiofain, who was incredibly English!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:12, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Danny Morrison was the very one I had in mind - how many of Northern Ireland's problems might nave been fixed if he and David Ervine had always been co-operating. And as promised Island Street pictures hot off the presses - the UVF mural remains although that part is actually Ballymacarrett Road and there is an extra memorial beside it. Island Street itself is mostly newish housing with parts still being built. I had hoped to copy your pictures to let you compare the changes but all of that seems to have been demolished for an office complex and the Bridge End Flyover onto the Sydenham Bypass motorway so I wasn't able to work out the right locations. I did notice an interesting house on Island Street where the front door and windows were decked out in extreme right insignia, white power slogans and KKK memorabilia but I thought better of taking a picutre as I reasoned someone happy to display their hatred like that would probably be none too pleased about some passing stranger taking photos of their house. Still my one thought was imagine being rehoused by the council only to discover that your new neighbour was the sort of guy who has silver Klansmen statuettes and "White Pride World Wide" stickers in his window. Scary stuff. And in nearby Severn Street I also found a bit more evidence of the local UDA presence. Keresaspa (talk) 02:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Fabulous photos! All those houses look like they were built in the 1980s or later. Would you happen to know what the houses would have been like in about 1975? I am thinking about writing a novel and setting part of it around Island Street. Would the houses have nbeen pre-WWII? Thanks. The UVF mural I took looks new. I nominated Miami Showband killings for a GA. I have been expanding it for the last couple of months. That was the job of the Mid-Ulster UVF run by Robin Jackson. In Dillon's The Dirty War which was written in 1990 when Jackson was still alive, Jackson is referred to as "Mr. A". It's obvious who he is though. I think Peter Tsylor had a lot of respect for David Ervine. What do you think of Sean O'Callaghan?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:17, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

A bit before my time to be honest as I wasn't born until 79. I reckon though the East Belfast Historical Society could tell you quite a bit about the area whilst there seems to be a guy who is an Island Street expert, although the message is pretty old and the e-mail address might be dead now. My own exposure to east Belfast beyond Cregagh is pretty recent as its not my part of Belfast but I've been endeavouring to explore a lot more these last few years. I did however know the nearby Markets area pretty well and all the houses there were pre-WWII and from old pictures I ahve seen the Newtownards Road and the Markets looked almost identical. I'm told my grandfather was born in Ballymacarrett although he was born in 1901 and died in the 50s so I can't confirm anything about that unfortunately. I did suspect Mr.A was Jackson when I read The Dirty War - gives a whole new slant to the book. I also reckon that Miami Showband killings should be GA worthy as it seems pretty darn comprehensive after all your work. As for O'Callaghan, certainly one of the odder stories to come along - I reckon there is still a lot untold about him and, like Jackson, we'll have to wait on his death for the full story. Keresaspa (talk) 17:35, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I know there were a lot of old houses knocked down in the mid-1980s as so many were unfit to live in. I knew a guy from the Markets, in fact his girlfriend was from the Ormeau Road. I have been to the Markets, in fact. I am sure Dillon got lots of info from Mr. A/Robin Jackson. Also Stephen Travers of the Miami Showband met a strange UVF leader called The Craftsman. Now I wonder who he is? He's one of the Brigade Staff.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:51, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Apart from some big old terraced houses that the likes of Charlie Chaplin used to stay in pretty much all of the Markets area was knocked down around 1983. I have vague memories of the house my Mum was born in and the school my uncles went to and my Granny still lived in a house in the long defunct Bond Street but it all went when I was about four and my Granny and uncles were rehoused in one of the newly built streets (although I personally never lived in the district). On a personal level the new houses bring back memories of my Granny and one of my uncles, both of whom have died, but objectively the newer houses are blooming ugly and have none of the character of the old houses. Same goes for the Newtownards Road - the faceless redbrick square houses are so bland compared to the handful of old houses left round Dee Street. As for the Craftsman I haven't a clue - any thoughts? Keresaspa (talk) 18:11, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I haven't the faintest idea who the Craftsman is. I do have an idea who the mysterious Englishman was at Buskhill. It wasn't Nairac... I think it was instead Tony Ball. Dillon seems sure Nairac wasn't there. Another strange character was Harris Boyle. He was so young yet seemingly involved in everything. His name always crops up in reports.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:49, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Tony Ball - might well have been. I reckon Nairac probably wasn't in the picture either. Boyle was an odd one too as, like you say, he was just a kid but he was practically running the show. Fishy business. And I notice below that the Stephen McKeag DYK as been greenlighted so thanks again for that. Keresaspa (talk) 19:29, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

It was my pleasure to nominate the McKeag article as it is very good. As for Boyle, I reckon he was Jackson's heir apparent to the Mid-Ulster Brigade and was being groomed by "Mr. A" to eventually take over the show as brigadier. That rank as you know would later fall to Billy Wright. If you look at Boyle's photo, you can see that like Wright, he was obviously a fanatic, unlike so many of the others who were just plain criminals; James Craig (loyalist) is an example. It's very easy to place Nairac everywhere as he's so notorious. Stepehen Travers had told police shortly after the massacre that the Englishman had fairish hair and when shown a photograph of Nairac didn't believe him to have been the man-this was after having taken in every aspect of his appearance at Buskhill. No, I think it's been suggested to Travers over the years that Nairac had been the Army Officer, so he now claims it to have been the case.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:55, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, there can be no question that Boyle and Wright were fanatical. By forming the LVF Wright was virtually putting a huge target on his own head for both republicans and other loyalists so the fact that he went ahead and did it shows just how into it he was. As for Craig he was a fanatic too - about money that is. The whole Nairac thing seems a bit obvious, almost like it would tie up loose ends if they could shoehorn him into that position. Never bought it myself. Keresaspa (talk) 16:52, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

There are plenty of loose ends as regards the Miami Showband killings. For starters how could they have so casually set up a bogus checkpoint on the main road in an area that was heavily patrolled by the UDR and regular Army. It wasn't like the latter two would publicise their patrols, so how would they have known that no legitimate patrol would happen along? Also, what if a lorry had passed when the minibus was stopped? The driver could have testified that the minibus was stopped at a checkpoint, therefore exposing their deed had all gone to plan.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:31, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Another of those incidents where the full story will probably be held off until everybody involved in it is dead by the looks of things. Certainly the official story has a few too many holes in it to be fully accurate. Keresaspa (talk) 18:04, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Take yer pick

among these pieces of work:

By cross-referencing these lists, you can find probably several hundred more names with Wikipedia articles, and we might be able to actually approach something of a master list.Hoops gza (talk) 17:07, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

We're talking about the List of Nazis and its subpages here, right? If so they're the definitions of works in progress but I'll take a look at the lists you mention as there is no doubt stuff to add from them. It will take a while as I have a bunch of things on the go right now though. Keresaspa (talk) 00:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Correct, that is what I was referring to, as far as I can tell it is the most comprehensive list on the English Wikipedia. There are quite a few other overlapping lists, and the creation of this list will make some of those other lists redundant and perhaps we will be able to delete some of them to avoid confusion.

The German Wikipedia link that you put on the page puts the English one to shame with its comprehensive coverage, and it should probably be used as a reference for future additions.

Once the list is a bit more complete, I plan to format it into a sortable table for easier viewing and use, and it will save on pages.Hoops gza (talk) 02:43, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Bear in mind that even the German Wikipedia list is far from complete. I have found many English articles on Nazis that are not included in the German Wikipedia category, although most of them do have German articles.Hoops gza (talk) 03:38, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Back when this article was nominated for deletion one of the conditions for keeping was that the articles that existed on the German Wikipedia but not the English had to be removed, thus explaining to an extent the discrepancies between our list and the German equivalent. A list of all those removed is kept here with the hope being that eventually they will all be made blue and appear on the List of Nazis. Of course that will take a long time and for my part has been hamstrung somewhat by my lack of German language as many of the more minor ones are barely covered in any English sources.

As for the list of articles you originally mention my own take would be that List of Axis personnel indicted for war crimes should be left as it as as it covers Japanese and other non-Nazis too although it will need to be ensured that all Germans on the list also appear on List of Nazis. The same goes for Female guards in Nazi concentration camps, Category:Nazi physicians and List of SS personnel all of which have definite criteria for inclusion that are different to List of Nazis (although admittedly there is quite a bit of overlap with the latter). The other two look much less useful - List of Nazi Party leaders and officials might have a chance if there was a definite set of criteria for inclusion but at the moment there doesn't seem to be so it has little use. As for List of former Nazi Party members that looks a clear case of direct overlap.

My own work has slipped a bit on this recently I have to admit as I have been sidetracked by other projects on here, such as helping the wonderful User:Jeanne boleyn in her sterling efforts to improve coverage of Northern Irish paramilitaries as well as trying to undo attempts at merging a bunch of my British far-right articles into one terribly overlong and generally unhelpful Frankenstein article but I haven't forgotten my List of Nazis and will get back to it as soon as possible. In the meantime if you want to get stuck into the list of redlinks then your efforts would be very much appreciated. Keresaspa (talk) 01:50, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I am confused as to what you mean when you say "criteria for inclusion". By default, all of the people on those lists (with the exception of the List of Axis personnel indicted for war crimes) were members of the Nazi party. So I don't see what criterion that they fail to reach.

The List of former Nazi Party members is definitely an article that should be nominated for deletion in the future, after all of the names on it have been transferred over to the List of Nazis.

The lack of English sources is certainly the biggest hurdle here. I have proposed on several Nazi-related pages the demand for a few bilingual German-English speakers to translate the German articles into English versions.

I have two other questions: 1. Can English articles that I add or edit later be deleted because they are "stubs"? For instance, I recently put in work adding some Nazis such as these: Siegfried Graetschus, Johann Niemann. I hope that these are never deleted.

2. As for my addition of Nazis with redlinks, does it make the most sense for me to add those names to your sandbox at User:Keresaspa/Nazi redlinks? Hoops gza (talk) 01:31, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

By the way, I have been looking at this site called "Aktion Reinhard Camps (ARC)" (deathcamps.org). It is a veritable bevy full of information, particularly in terms of organizing the perpetrators, however it is on Wikipedia's blacklist. Does that mean that the site is unreliable? I cannot link you directly to it, of course, since as I said it is blacklisted on Wikipedia. There are a lot of Nazis listed there that might not be available anywhere else in English.Hoops gza (talk) 01:56, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

When I say "criteria for inclusion" I mean for the articles you initially listed rather than for List of Nazis. Obviously everybody in, for example, List of SS personnel should go on List of Nazis but as an article List of SS personnel can stand on its own as well as it has its own criteria for inclusion i.e. membership of the SS. Thus there will be people on List of Nazis who don't appear on List of SS personnel because they were members of the Nazi Party, SA or some other body but not the SS - for instance Ernst Röhm or Joachim von Ribbentrop. List of former Nazi Party members on the other hand has the same criteria for inclusion as List of Nazis i.e. membership of the Nazi Party and therefore is, as we both agree, not useful. And it is worth a try to look for German speakers who will help out although it's not always easy to find willing volunteers.

The issue of articles like Siegfried Graetschus and Johann Niemann should not be a problem. Obviously somebody might nominate them but I can't see either being seriously considered for deletion as they both have reliable sources, are notable and could be expanded. They both look more than fine to me and being a stub is not in itself a basis for deletion except in cases where it is impossible to advance the article beyond stub status, something that is never the case for biograhpical articles. As for adding things to User:Keresaspa/Nazi redlinks by all means go ahead. The list is in my namespace for convenience sake but I always hoped that it would be a collaborative effort so chop and change it all you like either adding names to the list or removing ones you have created and added to List of Nazis. Finally I'm afraid I can't really help you on the WP:BLACKLIST. That more technical side of Wikipedia is a bit of mystery to me and I've had to junk sources from articles in the past myself because of this. I'm not even sure who decides or what the reasons are to be honest. In fact if I remember right I tried to use that very website as a source and had to ditch some useful stuff because of the blacklist. Keresaspa (talk) 02:10, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I could make articles for a lot of these Nazi redlinks, although in many cases it would essentially be copy-editing from other sites that have done research. Is that allowed and is it the best way to go about it? I think it would be better if we could find German-English translators who can translate the German-language articles. In many cases the German-language article is much more comprehensive and relevant to the person who is the subject.Hoops gza (talk) 02:38, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

As long as they are reliable sources and you reference them and the articles that won't be a problem. For my oney at least a good working stub article that can be expanded upon in the future is better than no article at all and everything on here had to start somewhere. SO my advice would be to get stuck in and if you can get a German to help with translating then great but if not don't let it put you off. Let me know if you do create any and I'll see if I can add anything and in the meantime I will get back to the list myself soon. Good luck. Keresaspa (talk) 16:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't know what "get stuck in" means. And the speaker does not need to be a citizen of Germany, or an ethnic German, he or she just needs to speak fluent German. I'm not sure if it is justifiable to have an English article for every member of the Nazi party, but it is justifiable to have a list that entails all members. Do all of them meet the standards for notability?Hoops gza (talk) 00:48, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

"Get stuck in" means go ahead or carry on. I guess I assumed you were from my part of the world when I used that colloquialism :) And if you can get a German speaker to help then do it although I've had trouble getting help from non-English speakers in the past. There are tags you can add to articles to try to get aomeone to translate the corresponding article in the German Wikipedia (or any other language for that matter) and add the information to the article in the English Wikipedia but to be honest they are often ignored. For example there is one for the Dutch Wikipedia on this article but it has been there for over a year and nothing has happened. It might be worth a try anyway though as there might be more German speakers than Dutch on here. As to the notability issue that might cause one or two problems. I haven't gone through every redlink on the list to make sure but there might well be a few who are borderline. That being said the fact that they all exist on the German Wikipedia would lend a lot of weight to any notability claims. It's hard to predict what some people might take exception as I have created some clearly notable articles in the past that have been nominated (unsuccessfully) for deletion whilst others that even I consider borderline still exist without any objections. But don't let that put you off - deletion nominations can always be opposed and World War II related article deletions are very rare. Keresaspa (talk) 01:58, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

My articles will not be nearly as complete as your article for Bodo Uhse, for instance.Hoops gza (talk) 03:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

The Bodo Uhse article is slightly different in that there were a lot of sources in English available for him and really the fact that he was not already covered on Wikipedia was a bit surprising given his standing as an author. In fact if everybody on the list had the level of sources available that Uhse did then our jobs would be a lot easier! Other recent creations like Lothar Beutel or Paul Dittel give a better idea - I struggled to find sources for those but used what I could find. In each case better sources exist on Google Books but the old linguistic problem is there as these sources are in German and so mean little to me. But for me stubs like these that show why the person is notable and use sources available are wothwhile and are definitely preferable to redlinks. Keresaspa (talk) 03:21, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Are all members of the SS considered by default to be Nazis? For instance, I'm not sure that Kurt Franz actually joined the Nazi Party, but he did join the Waffen-SS.Hoops gza (talk) 21:15, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can tell SS membership assumes Nazi Party membership. I don't know of any instacnes where this was not the case although if there was somebody who was an SS man but not a Nazi Party member it would be mentioned in any coverage of them as it would be so unusual. But obviously it is preferable for the purposes of the list to find a source that specifically states someone was a member of the Nazi Party rather than the SS. For Franz as an individual I have come across his name in a list of Nazi Party members and so I will add him to List of Nazis with that source. Good work on the Franz article by the way. Keresaspa (talk) 23:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Is there a way for me to easily search for all of the new articles that I have created on my account?Hoops gza (talk) 20:23, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Whenever you create or edit an article you'll see two boxes just above the "save page", "show preview" and "show changes" buttons. Click on the one that says "watch this page" and it will be added to your watchlist. You can access your watchlist from the top of any page. Note you can choose to watch any page whether you created it or not so if you have made a lot of edits to one you didn't create you might want to watch it as well. There are different settings for the watchlist but you can access all articles you have chosen to watch. It's a feature worth using as it lets you track any article yuo want to keep an eye on. Keresaspa (talk) 00:04, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Do we have any efficient way of checking to see what Nazis which already have articles in English are missing from the List? I assume that you find Nazi articles from time to time that had not yet been included. I do as well occasionally. In any event, I am going to assume from now on that any SS member was also a Nazi.Hoops gza (talk) 02:12, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Not that I know of. A good place to start would be looking at the relevant categories to make sure they are all included in the list but I don't know of any more efficient way. Keresaspa (talk) 01:31, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

OK, two things:

From now on, if I have a citation for a blue link being in the SS, I will assume that they had Nazi party membership and I will add the person to the list with the SS citation.
I am going to make a list of bluelinks that are claimed to be Nazis that are missing from the list because they do not have a citation proving they were a Nazi. Do you think it would be better to make a sandbox page for this, or to make a Category of all such articles? Of course the Category option has the advantage of alphabetizing the names automatically.Hoops gza (talk) 00:09, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Using SS membership sounds fine to me. As for the second point it would probably be best to make a sandbox page to list the articles. The category would be useful but categories that are to do with the technical aspects tend to be deleted. If you do make a page in your userspace for this let me know so as I can edit it too. Thanks. Keresaspa (talk) 01:31, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

It turns out that not all SS personnel were by default Nazi Party members. I have started a category for it here: Category:SS personnel who were not Nazis. Although I think that you would be hard pressed to find a German or Austrian SS member who was not also a Nazi Party member.

But I see that the description on the main page of List of Nazis is "closely linked" to the party in various publications. All members of the Schutzstaffel certainly qualify for that. So I guess we need to decide whether it is a list comprised strictly of party members or anyone closely affiliated with the party. I would lean towards the former since the list starts to become a much more gray area for criteria of inclusion otherwise. We'll have Wehrmacht generals on there otherwise.Hoops gza (talk) 03:57, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I meant to say that when I told you - SS members who were not ethnic Germans would not be allowed Nazi Party membership. The Waffen-SS as a whole was a grey area as it wasn't too far removed from being a second army so where somebody was just in the Waffen-SS Nazi Party membership would ned to be proven. When I made my first suggestion I was thinking about the Germany-based SS that was really a type of police force and the concentration camp guard SS rather than the Waffen-SS. Keresaspa (talk) 16:28, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Also, please let me know if you want to include people who were given "honorary" Nazi membership. This includes military leaders such as Karl Doenitz and Wilhelm Keitel. In most cases, this happened because regular military officers were prohibited by law from joining the Nazi party.Hoops gza (talk) 04:04, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I think in cases like that if you find a source that specifically says they had Nazi Party membership then included them otherwise leave them out. Keresaspa (talk) 16:28, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

OK, sounds good, I think that clears up everything.Hoops gza (talk) 00:55, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Stephen McKeag

On 13 April 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Stephen McKeag, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that leading Ulster Defence Association member Stephen "Top Gun" McKeag sang "Follow the Yellow Brick Road" after committing a sectarian killing? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:03, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Shankill Road church

I just saw the photo you took of the Shankill Road church. What a grim-looking place! Give me Gothic cathedrals with towering spires anyday over those forbidding plain edifices!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:38, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

BTW, what religion is Adair? Church of Ireland, Free Presbyterian, or Church of God? A lot of people don't realise that the Orange Order was originally Anglican. Many loyalists are in point o fact Church of Ireland rather than Free Presbyterian, especially those from Belfast.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:41, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

There's a couple of nice enough churches on the Shankill, notably the CoI one which I think is called St Matthews, but I wanted to add the Church of God to the George Seawright article. I hadn't actually seen the front of it (which is in a sidestreet) until today and like you say grim as all get out. There are a few of those sort of slightly unusual "sect" churches on the Shankill and surrounding area, mostly variations of Pentecostalism, and most of them are little more than small flat-roofed trailer type buildings. I'm not sure what denomination Adair is though - I know his mother sent him to Sunday school but I'm not sure where. I have his just plain daft autobiography somewhere so I'll check it later to see if his ghost writer says although I've never heard of him professing to be much of a Christian in the way Billy Wright did. As for the Free Presbyterians even though Ian Paisley undoubtedly commanded a huge personal following, as evidenced by him topping the polls in the European Parliament election even when the DUP was way behind the UUP, as a religious leader he has always overseen a very small flock compared to the Anglicans, ordinary Presbyterians and even the Methodists. Heck even Peter Robinson was never in the Free Presbyterian Church and indeed most of the Belfast cadre of the DUP, except Seawright, never were. I can't imagine Adair and his tattoos being too welcome either - I live quite near their Free Presbyterian HQ in the Martyrs Memorial Church and it only seems to be upper middle class people in sombre suits who go in. Keresaspa (talk) 19:41, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

After a quick look through Adair's book he states that his birth certificate calls him "Protestant Presbyterian" on page 16 just two pages after taking the rise out of Kenny McClinton for being "born again". On page 29 he also describes his oath and Bible heavy initiation into the UDA as "a load of nonsense" so it seems his Presbyterianism is purely an identity thing rather than any sort of religious conviction. He doesn't mention what church his family was involved with and thus where his Sunday schooling would have been although Woodvale Presbyterian would be my bet as the only one actually on the Shankill, West Kirk Presbyterian, wasn't established until 1988. Keresaspa (talk) 01:25, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Dervla Murphy in her excellent travel novel A Place Apart pointed out that most middle-class rural types tended to be Free Presbyterian, whereas the urban, working-class were more likely to be Anglican. Davy Payne, however, was Free Presbyterian. I lived for two years in rural Texas, and most of the churches there tended to be grim like the one you took on the Shankill. They remind me more of holding cells than places where one goes to worship and feel close to God.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:34, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

They definitely have that vibe some of them. There is another one like that near the bottom of the Shankill that I'll have to phtograph - it looks more like a bomb shelter than a church! Keresaspa (talk) 01:31, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

The Dirty War

Keresaspa, could you do me a big favour? If you locate Dillon's The Dirty War could you please look up and see who gave the orders for the UDR/UVF soldiers to fire at the Miami Showband members. Was it McDowell? I believe Dillon claims that he did in the book. Another thing, how were the bodies of Harris Boyle and Wesley Somerville identified? Dillon mentions this in the book as well. I saw bits and pieces on Google Books, but couldn't find the entire statement. Thanks a million. I need the info for the Miami Showband killings article which I have nominated for GA.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 11:55, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

No sweat - done and done. The UVF issued a statement soon after naming the two dead and it was McDowell who gave the order. I added the relevant bits to the article although you might want to fix up the style of my references a tad as I'm not great at the technical sides of Wikipedia. All in all though the article looks pretty comprehensive and looks a GA to my eyes. Keresaspa (talk) 00:05, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much, Keresaspa. Leaving out the fact that McDowell had given the orders to fire open the band would have been a serious omission as it's an important fact. Note that this was the soldier that the Englishman had conversed with prior to the explosion. Hmm....what troubles me is how the patrol could have set up a bogus checkpoint on the main road when not only a regular UDR or BA patrol could have appeared, but any passing driver who would have later testified as to having seen the checkpoint had the bomb blown up the Miami Showband as planned? And why was the Englishman's car not damaged when the bomb went off? When did he leave the scene? I hate the technical side of Wikipedia. Another editor has kindly done the ref-fprmatting for me. Once again THANK YOU for adding the details. Another question-morbid-how were they able to figure out which body belonged to whom? I believe the arm found in the field was Somerville's as Boyle's body was blown onto the road fifty feet ahead of the van's front half. I have no sympathy for either of them as they were attempting to do the same to all five band members.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:35, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind me asking yet another favour of you. Could you please copy the entire statement issued by the UVF regarding the Miami Showband attack on page 214? You could put it on my talk page and I'll just copy the sentences I need to the article. The article already has parts of the statement from various sources but not the entire statement. Thanks again.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed that there is still a lot of unanswered questions there but as far as available information goes the entry looks complete. As to the issue of indentifying which body was which I am reminded of a bomb in Oxford Street which was so bad that it was impossible to identify. As far as I remeber in that case empty coffins were buried in remembrance as inidividual identification was impossible and I would assume the same thing happened here...unless they were actually grim enough to bury a tattooed arm which to be honest wouldn't surprise! And I'll leave the full statement on your talk page now - I was actually going to do it last night anyway in case you had some use for it so it's not a problem. Keresaspa (talk) 17:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

They did identify the bodies. Boyle's was blown onto the road 50 feet away from the front end of the van while Somerville's body and severed arm were blown 80 feet in the opposite direction landing into the fileld. So they knew which body belonged to whom. Thanks for all your help in this; it's greatly appreciated. Oh the Oxford Bus Station bombing was gruesome. You are talking about Bloody Friday in 1972. I read about it at the time. I didn't know they used empty coffins. It was that event which propelled a lot of people to join the UVF like Billy Giles and David Ervine. I don't know why the IRA allowed themselves to be led by MacStiofain. --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:05, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Like I mentioned earlier some of my family were from the Markets and Oxford Street was just round the corner from them so I got first hand accounts of bits of goo that had once been people. Very grizzly stuff. That whole area is completely unrecognisable now as well my uncle briefly worked in the slaughterhouse there but now it is all auditoriums and skyscrapers and fancy restaurants. Mind you after what happened the bus station probably should have been demolished long before it was. And yup MacStiofain was a counterproductive moron. Keresaspa (talk) 18:12, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a million. How does it look? The entire statement plus the rest I found in Taylor's book is in the UVF reaction section. MacStiofain did so much to foment hatred for decades to come.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks the part alright; if that's not a GA then I don't know what is! Keresaspa (talk) 18:44, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I just hope the reviewer sees it that way!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:14, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Miami Showband killings

The article passed! It's now GA. Thank you for your help and contributions. They are much appreciated!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Rightly so - great work :) Keresaspa (talk) 19:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:41, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Billy Wright

I have been expanding and hopefully improving the Billy Wright (loyalist) article. What do you think? I added an image and more details about his killing.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:31, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

You've done good work on the death section - it looks very comprehensive. A few of the other sections are a bit short on references, although we can fix that fairly easily. I've added bits and bobs about his fallout with the UVF, which was a bit too brief, and hopefully I can add more from the Billy Boy book mentioned in the further reading section. If only I can remember where I left it that is! Keresaspa (talk) 01:40, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

That would be great. I found Dillon's book God and the Gun on Google, which is where I obtained a lot about his family history and inspiration by Boyle and Somerville. Go check out his interviews on YouTube. He was likely one of the most frightening of all the loyalists. A true fanatic. I notice Peter Taylor didn't conduct any interviews with him, despite having seen him at Drumcree in 1996. Taylor seemed to select the more approachable loyalists such as Tyrie, Jackie McDonald,Billy Giles, and Bobby Morton. He seemed to shy away from the likes of Wright, Robin Jackson, and Davy Payne. --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:32, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

It was Wright's eyes that did it really - he looked about as cold as any human could. No doubt about it, he was as militant as they came. I agree with you about Taylor too as the real hard nuts were left out. Judging by their books McDonald and Cusack interviewed Wright although the interviews seemed to before the LVF and he gave away very little in them. Compare that to Johnny Adair who would flap his gums at anybody and everybody and seemed to love self-publicism. Funnily enough, even though C Company were pally with the LVF, I've read that Adair personaly hated Wright as he didn't like any other big name loyalist figures who stole his thunder. Seems he has a little bit of an inferiority complex behind all the bluster. And I've added some stuff to Wright's article about his early years and moves to loyaiism, although I can see you've been busy fixing the article up in between. Keresaspa (talk) 23:45, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes. The Cory Report gives a detailed account of his death, which I've added to the article. It was the final, 7th shot which had killed him. One could tell by his eyes that Wright was a religious fanatic (Harris Boyle had the same gleam), whereas Adair probably has never seen the inside of a bible. Wright was extremely intimidating. Fanatics are always dangerous because they believe they are on a divine mission from God. I'm puzzled by one thing. The Taylor book says both the LVF and INLA were not on ceasefire at the time of Wright's death, yet his article says the LVF agreed to a ceasefire in 1997. Would you happen to know more about this? Martin Dillon interviewed Wright.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:57, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Adair to my mind was a show off - I saw him up the town a few times during his heyday and he was always surrounded by people, sauntering about like some godfather trying to get noticed. He would always have short sleeves on even on cold days to show off his tattoos and muscles. Small man syndrome I think they call. I don't know Portadown so I never saw saw Wright but I don't imagine he would have been like that. As to the LVF ceasefire everything I've seen, as well as my own memory, says that it was mid 1998 when they went on ceasefire. I notice that part of the Wright article is one of the unreferenced bits I mentioned earlier si it'll probably need to be redone. I'll look it properly later as there are a few claims that really need sourcing in that section. Keresaspa (talk) 15:12, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Sod it, I've removed the claim as it is just plain wrong. Their ceasefire statement is available here and it is clearly dated 15 May 1998 by which time Billy Wright was long dead. Keresaspa (talk) 15:23, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

How did I write the section regarding his death? I did a lot of research to come up with a reasonable account of events as they unfolded that morning. My God, all that action took place in a matter of 90 seconds-like JFK! All witnesses sttae that Wright did stand up and kick out at McWilliams. I think Wright found the chance to get up only because McWilliams-feeling safe being armed-probably was about to give him his sentence of execution or something like that before shooting him. Another thing, the ASU had clear orders not to kill anyone else but Wright, unless they posed a threat to themselves. He probably took a few seconds to make sure it was indeed Wright. What do you think? Oh, do you know the area of Portadown where he lived?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:54, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I think your version sounds pretty much spot on. It is crazy how much has been written about what was really such a quick event. As for Portadown I know he lived on the Corcrain estate but to be honest I have never set foot in Portadown in my life so I could tell you nothing about the area. I've passed through Portadown on a train but that's about it as it has always had a bit of a reputation as a place to avoid. I also had a friend who did a year's work placement there and he hated it so much that it put me off visiting. Keresaspa (talk) 16:18, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I have only been to Portadown train station to switch trains. It seemed a menacing place. Hmm Corcrain is where Harris Boyle grew up.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

It was the Dublin train that brought me through it but I saw little to tempt me to get off. Corcrain was also where Adair and his mob started to turn against Stephen McKeag so it's pretty pivotal to loyalism. I almost want to visit now! Keresaspa (talk) 18:19, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I believe there are loads of murals dedicated to Wright in Portadown.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:22, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Well now I have to go! Keresaspa (talk) 00:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I wonder if Wright's house is a tourist attraction like Johnny Adair's?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:14, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

100 Boundary Way - some poor sod has to live there now. I'm sure Wright's house has some indicators on it. I'll need to get his address before I go! Keresaspa (talk) 16:01, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Is Boubdary Way off the Lower Shankill? You said you used to see Adair in town? Did you ever see his wife, Gina? Oh, I added some more details about Wright's shooting. I'm sure his street in Portadown has loads of murals dedicated to him. His killing was very suspicious.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:07, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I saw Adair a couple of times during his heyday in the town but he was always with his C Company cronies. It is possible I've seen Gina Adair but to be fair she looks like about half of the women in Belfast so I wouldn't have picked up on it. In Johnny's case its pretty rare to see any man in Belfast who is about five feet high and five feet wide so he was unmistakable! Boundary Way is a side-street off the lower Shankill. There are two streets that link the Shankill to the neighbouring Crumlin Road, one called Agnes Street and the other North Boundary Street/Denmark Street and Boundary Way is in there. That area is one of the most intensely populated parts of the Shankill and also contains probably the crummiest (yet paradoxically some of the newest) housing on the road. There's a big open grass verge with a street called Hopewell Crescent encircling it and it is full of murals, some of them showing dead members of C Company. Any other references to C Company have been expunged from the Shankill but they are comemmorated here. Indeed Boundary Way itself had a small memorial garden thing to C Compnay last time I was round there but it might be gone now (it is a cul de sac so I tend to go to it very rarely). The Pony Club, where Frankie Curry was found dead, is also here. It's a real maze of streets actually round there and would be very easy to get lost in. As for Wright's killing - if somebody higher up wasn't involved in that either from the government or loyalism, I'll eat my hat. Keresaspa (talk) 17:23, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

He was an inconvenient impediment to many people. You notice McWilliams didn't bother with Norman Green or the two officers? His orders were to take out Wright. The officer in the van (Stephen Sterritt) put on a brave show, didn't he?!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:35, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Like you say, McWilliams had his orders - if that been a real INLA hit with no collusion it would have been a bloodbath. Keresaspa (talk) 21:02, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Especially with McWilliams holding the gun. He was in prison for having killed a barman who had ejected him from his bar! Apparently he told Sterritt to get down when he opened the van door.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I remember it happening - it was a place called Frames on the outskirts of the city centre. Scarily I was in it playing a bit of snooker a couple of days before the shooting. Suffice to say I didn't go back there again! Keresaspa (talk) 16:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Back in 1981, I had just left a pub in the city centre of Dublin when minutes later there was a shooting (not fatal) of an IRSP guy by the OIRA.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I had a few close scrapes like that actually, especially with nearly walking into bombs in the city centre. Part of the "fun" of growing up in Belfast really! Keresaspa (talk) 18:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

My friend and I were stopped in Belfast city centre by a UDR soldier. My friend was questioned at length.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:37, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

My uncle was frisked at gunpoint by the UDR once. Bad old days in many ways! Keresaspa (talk) 16:44, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Gusty Spence

On 16 May 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Gusty Spence, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that imprisoned Ulster Volunteer Force leader Gusty Spence was "kidnapped" by his own men after being granted two days' leave to attend his daughter's wedding? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 06:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Congratulations, Keresaspa. It deserved to be on the Main Page after all the work you did expanding it.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:11, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Yay! Nice one. We're getting this articles up to speed rightly now. Keresaspa (talk) 16:59, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Mark "Swinger" Fulton

Before you put your Billy Boy book away, could you please see if you can find anything to add on Mark Fulton (loyalist)? I created his article a couple of hours ago! Thanks a million!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:37, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll do that tonight no sweat. Good to see another LVF member aded as the category looks a bit empty. Keresaspa (talk) 18:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

You did a fantastic job! Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. How does the article look now?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I was surpsied how little Billy Boy had about him so I had to fall back on good old McDonald & Cusack which always comes up trumps. Keresaspa (talk) 16:44, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The sweet wee thing

What do you think of my latest: Muriel Gibson? This is unbelievable!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:23, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Wow. You got that done quick. I'll see if I have anything to add later but it looks pretty darn good as is. It's well her sons live in California as I can't imagine Mahatma and Oddysseus Landry survivng too long at school in Portadown! Keresaspa (talk) 16:44, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If you have any info on the dear old thing please add it to the article. I cannot find out what happened to Rain's charges. Was she found guilty or what? Muriel has to be the weirdest loyalist of all. A hippie-turned-loyalist terrorist!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:54, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

She's probably the maddest one yet. Christians turning to loyalism is pretty run of the mill but hippies?! I'm not finding anything to add although if you have anything to add to my latest Kenny McClinton please do. Keresaspa (talk) 23:20, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Oh and Alex Kerr (loyalist) as well. Keresaspa (talk) 01:18, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Both of your new articles are very good indeed! Regarding McClinton's baptism of prisoners, I heard of washing away a person's sins, but baptising people in a bath tub is taking it a bit far! LOL.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Ha ha, good one. I was very careful how I phrased that bit as two prisoners in a tub would usually mean something else! Keresaspa (talk) 16:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

If you want to read about another madman, read the Robin Jackson article I created. Look under the section: Reputation. Specifically regarding his attendance of funerals.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:08, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Yikes, what a headcase. He must have been mad as if somebody had spotted him at some of the funeral and been armed he would have been a dead man. Very high quality articles though. Keresaspa (talk) 17:29, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

He seemed to have led a charmed life. Nobody ever tried to get to him. Anyway, I'm sure he packed a pistol somewhere on his dress-up suit-LOL! Do you think the Jackson article is well-written? I have devoted so much time to that one.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

The Jackson one looks excellent. I see it's rated B class but I'm not sure what more could be added. Keresaspa (talk) 17:48, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:55, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Crip McWilliams

I added an image to Christopher "Crip" McWilliams article. He looks a bit like Billy Wright. Oh, I raised a question on Talk:Alex Kerr.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:55, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

He is rather like Wright - eeire coincidence. And I noticed the Alex Kerr problem myself when I was creating the article but sources are lacking. I've left an attempt at an answer in response though. Keresaspa (talk) 18:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Just as well McWilliams didn't catch his reflection when he opened the van door-he might have shot himself instead!!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:40, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

The Craftsman

The Taylor book says that the mysterious UVF figure known as "the Craftsman" was the UVF's second-in-command and was instrumental in bringing about the CLMC ceasefire in 1994. Hmm....who could this be? I have an idea...--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:20, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Not sure about that one myself - who do you have in mind? Keresaspa (talk) 16:53, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Bearing in mind we're dealing with a living person here, I really should not use his name. Let's say he was a key figure in the loyalist ceasefire.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:03, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

A few clues and I'll work it out. Keresaspa (talk) 17:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I have a hunch you'll son get it wright.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:13, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm with you now! Keresaspa (talk) 17:17, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Just my opinion mind, but the dates fit.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:21, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Could well be as there are a few coincidences that would be difficult to explain away. Keresaspa (talk) 17:29, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

He would have been in the Maze at the same time the Miami Showband killers were sent there which explains why he told Travers that the lads had panicked. Remember the Miami Showband massacre pissed a lot of Northern Protestants off as well. Ballrooms were the only form of entertainment at the time and the killings stopped bands from going up North. The killers probably had to justify their attack to some of the loyalists inside who might have been annoyed with them. Hence they said "they had panicked".--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Good point. It all adds up then. Keresaspa (talk) 18:07, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Musicians and sports figures are pretty much hands off as they belong to everybody. The IRA never went after George Best!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Too many Manchester United supporting Provies for that. Keresaspa (talk) 18:20, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

LOL. If you want to know how I confirmed my suspicion regarding "The Craftsman" do a Google with his name and Craftsman. You will see what comes up (which is why he was given that nickname).--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I did wonder where that came from. Makes sense now. Keresaspa (talk) 18:33, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

My Nazi bluelink list

User:Hoops gza/Nazi bluelinks that need citation to prove they were Nazis Hoops gza (talk) 01:14, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

OK, I have checked to make sure that every person listed on List of former Nazi Party members is either on List of Nazis or my bluelink list. However, there is still important info on that list that I might want to transfer over to the new list when it is reformatted.Hoops gza (talk) 03:33, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Good work. I'll have a look for references for the names on the list. Keresaspa (talk) 19:27, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

And I take it on good faith that you only remove bluelinks from the redlink list after you have confirmed that it is indeed the same person, and after you have added the person to the List of Nazis? If that is the case, then it might make more sense for me to just add the bluelinks that are missing a source to your redlinks list.Hoops gza (talk) 04:55, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

All removed only when added to the list - as you can see there are a few bluelinks left behind on the page because I just can't find a source or in a couple of cases because an article has been created about somebody else who happens to have the same name. Keresaspa (talk) 16:28, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

OK. But what about if I integrate the blue links with the red links? They all are missing a reliable source. Or would you prefer that I keep the bluelinks separate?Hoops gza (talk) 00:49, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

If you would find it more convenient to keep everything on one page then go ahead and integrate them. I don't mind personally, either system is fine by me. Keresaspa (talk) 00:58, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Swing high, swing low

Swinger's on the Main Page!! Golden earring, waistcoat and all!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:40, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Nice one. Well deserved. Keresaspa (talk) 19:27, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:17, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Who have we missed?

I believe that you and I have created articles on nearly all the leading loyalists. Billy Mitchell is probably notable enough for an article. And perhaps Stephen Irwin. What do you think?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:21, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Billy Mitchell definitely; I almost created it the other week. Stephen Irwin seems notable enough too. Possibly Joe English too as he was a big enough figure in the early days of the peace process. Keresaspa (talk) 17:00, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Not to neglect the other side, I just created this one: Larry Marley.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:04, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Good work. I haven't really seen the state of the republican articles on here yet. Are there many gaps? Keresaspa (talk) 17:31, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm not sure. I did one on Peter Cleary recently; a while back I did articles on John Francis Green and Kevin McGrady.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:58, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

I can't remember doing any editing on the republican side myself as the last time I checked (which was a few years ago) there seemed to be a lot of people active in doing so. But I'm open to having a go as there's bound to be some missing. Keresaspa (talk) 18:50, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Joe English

Congratulations on an excellent article. It's very well-written, informative and has plenty of sources. Good work!!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:36, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. By the way if you can add anything to Billy Mitchell (loyalist) that would be great too. Keresaspa (talk) 16:48, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

I'll take a look now. I have done enough on Charlotte of Cyprus. Time to leave behind 15th century Cyprus and fast-forward to 20th century Northern Ireland!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:09, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

15th century Cyprus - I would give you a hand there but I didn't know Cyprus even existed in the 15th century until now :D Keresaspa (talk) 17:24, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Medieval Cyprus makes Northern Ireland in the late 20th century seem a boy scouting adventure in comparison. The Byzantines were cruel despots. Oh, I really like your Billy Mitchell article. I love your style of writing. May I make a suggestion though. You need to add a bit of background to give the article context. I just did the same to the Billy Hanna and Robin Jackson articles. Just add a few sentence mentioning the outbreak of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. There doesn't need to be too much detail, but I do think it nees to be added for the reader to understand where Mitchell as coming from. To get an idea, see what I did to Robin Jackson in the section under Ulster Volunteer Force.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:45, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

My other thing on Wikipedia is articles about the far right so cruelty and despotism loom large there too. Good idea about the Mitchell article I'll have a go at that after me dinner. Keresaspa (talk) 17:52, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

That way readers can see the cause and effect. I notice that articles on republicans mention the Civil Rights marches and/or Bloody Sunday as the reason they became involved in the IRA.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:02, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Captain Tony Ball

Have you any info on this SAS man Captain Julian Antony "Tony" Ball? He worked with Robert Nairac in 4 Field Survey Troop. I think he'd be a good subject for an article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:39, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I should be able to scare something up. I'll leave it you to decide if its worthwhile and then see what I can add. Keresaspa (talk) 16:28, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Great!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:55, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Billy Mitchell

I have just discovered an amazing fact: our Billy died in July 2006!! I have since added this to the article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:41, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Cripes they kept that quiet. I must have been out of town that week! Keresaspa (talk) 16:28, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

My keyboard is malfunctioning. Yes, I was shocked as well. I do so much research on loyalists, I-m surprised I didn-t run into an article that mentioned his death.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:54, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Definitely a surpise when I heard that too. And funnily enough my keyboard has been playing me up too! Keresaspa (talk) 17:14, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Ken Gibson

I need your help! Would you happen to have any info on Ken Gibson (loyalist)? An editor suggested I create an article on him which I just did but I need more biography on him including his year of birth. Thanks!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:25, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

No problem. I'll see what I can add tonight. Keresaspa (talk) 19:44, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

The article looks fantastic! Thanks a million, you are wonderful.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:18, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Ah, you're too kind. I couldn't find his date of birth though and there was nothing about him after the mid 1970s. Keresaspa (talk) 16:38, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

He just seemed to (wisely IMO) fade from the scene. That's why his death didn't attract any media attention.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:44, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Giuseppe Bastianini

On 27 May 2011, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Giuseppe Bastianini, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the Fasci Italiani all'Estero, the fascist movement for Italian expatriates, which was led by Giuseppe Bastianini, claimed to have groups in over 40 countries in 1925? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 08:03, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for nominating :) Keresaspa (talk) 15:02, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Jim Hanna

I'm on a roll!!!!!!!!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Jimbo too. I'll have a wee look later to see if there's anything to add but it looks pretty good as is. Keresaspa (talk) 16:40, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Thnaks. I wish I knew when he joined the UVF. Isn't that incredible about Goulding? I'd say Hanna was the UVF's de facto leader until his death in 1974 when Gibson took over. I wonder who was boss after 1975 when Gibson faded away from the scene?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:18, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

It wouldn't surprise me if what Goulding said was true - the level of co-operation between the supposed loyalist and republican enemies was a lot higher than either would let on and elements in the British government were also a lot more involved than they would ever let on. As for who came after Gibson that's a very good question. All the big names seemed to be in the Maze at that point so I'm not sure at all. Keresaspa (talk) 18:10, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I've added bits about his early membership, his meeting with the Provos (more or less copied from the Billy Mitchell article) and his death and the aftermath. Apparently this YCV leader was the next UVF top dog. So any thoughts on who he might be? Keresaspa (talk) 18:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Interesting question. The way I see it Hanna was the de facto leader; then upon his death he was replaced for the remainder of 1974 by Ken Gibson. After Gibson came this mysterious YCV guy from west Belfast. Could he have been the mysterious Craftsman?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:43, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Regarding Goulding's claims, I believe them to have been true. Look at how James Craig made deals with the IRA. I once overheard a bizarre conversation between three men from the Shankill Road. I would say the Irish Government was also involved same as the British not to mention the Soviets and STASI. I met a Russian who told me the Soviets had a vested interest in keeping the British occupied in Northern Ireland. It interrupted their spy games in West Berlin and it was hoped the Troubles would drive a wedge between the US and Britain due to the vocal and powerful Irish-Amerian lobby in the US.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:52, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Could be. By the way Clifford Peeples is available too now if you have anything to add. I noticed on your talk page he had been suggested. Keresaspa (talk) 15:02, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Nice article. I made a few tweaks. Who are we missing now? John Weir (loyalist) probably merits an article. I added a bit of his bio to the Glenanne gang article, but he is notable enough for his own page.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:45, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, I just did Weir's article. Feel free to edit it if you have any info on him. There are still two sections that need to be filled! There's a lot to say about him, not least his sworn affidavit and its numerous allegations.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:38, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

I added some details about the Strathearn killing that I got from McPhilemy. Of course I don't own a copy of The Committee as that would be illegal *wink*. Keresaspa (talk) 00:17, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks a million. Your edits look great. I never knew Weir was tried in a Diplock Court! There is a mountain of info on Weir. It was really hard to wade through all the text on him to glean the important facts and not give undue weight to the trivial. What do you honestly think of my article? I found it rough going as my eyes got tired doing the research-he made so many allegations! The last source at the bottom links to the article which shows his picture. My God, what an intimidating guy. He looks more like someone from the KGB than RUC!!!!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 13:52, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

The article looks excellent. There's always a danger when there is a lot of stuff available of the article ending up too long but you've avoided that and made it comprehensive whilst still accessible. Excellent work! And yes a hell of a frightening guy and no mistake! Keresaspa (talk) 17:22, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm glad you like the article. The amount of research that went into that! I spent most of the day working on it. My eyes are killing me. I can see why Weir was used in SPG. He looks like one of those scary KGB agents in cold war-era espionage films. He was over six feet tall as well.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:43, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

That was often the thing that let the cops in Northern Ireland down - they all seemed to be very small. I remember asking one for directions at Windsor Park when I was 17 and I was about a foot bigger than him (admittedly I'm six four but still five four is too small for a copper). Not a problem for Weir who did indeed have a real Russian spy look about him. Keresaspa (talk) 18:44, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I recall the RUC as always looking wary. I had never seen one like Weir. The Irish Gardai were all well-fed country boys about seven feet tall, but none had the look of Weir. He and Robin Jackson must have made quite a pair!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:09, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Even the thought of Jackson and Weir on the prowl would send chills down your spine! Keresaspa (talk) 18:54, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Imagine thumbing a lift and getting picked up by Weir and Jackson!!!! The pair of them make Billy Wright and Harris Boyle seem like mischievous boy scouts in comparison!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:59, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Really doesn't bare thinking about does it? I was wary enough getting into Mahoods taxis let alone that! Keresaspa (talk) 02:41, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

LOL. I once accepted a lift from three guys in Lisburn to Belfast. They all turned out to be from the Shankill and this guy here was one of the passengers in the car: James Craig (loyalist)!!!! I was never so glad to get out of a car...almost got knoked down by an Ulsterbus!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:05, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Yikes. Scary stuff. One of the things spending my whole life in Northern Ireland had instilled in me is never to take lifts as you might end up with somebody dodgy. And they didnt come much dodgier than the boy Craig! Keresaspa (talk) 17:37, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I thought I knew the driver which is why I got in; once inside I realised I was wrong. Craig was the passenger in the front seat. The driver was doing most of the talking and the guy sitting next to me (Jesus wept!), was fairly tall if I remember correctly and didn't pay much attention to me (thank God). They carried on a very frank conversation (peppered with "fockins" and "fer fock's sakes") and occasionally addressed a direct comment to me. One of the most bizarre experiences of my entire life. It happened in the summer of 1986. My Dublin boyfriend and I did something even dodgier back in 1982. We walked across the border from Dundalk and once we arrived in the North, the main road was detoured onto a cattle path due to a bomb scare. British soldiers were in the adjacent fields doing a search for the device. We were in South Armagh, and we walked past groups of IRA supporters standing by in the fields or in doorways of nearby houses watching us who all made the most vulgar propositions to me. Afterwards we thumbed a lift to Newry.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:59, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

It wouldn't be Belfast if the "fock" sound didn't appear every few seconds :D Must have been scary as all hell though. Plus you're lucky somebody didn't have a potshot crossing the border on foot. I remember an IRA roadblock stopping a car I was in round there when I was about 10 although thankfully they waved us through pretty quick. Similarly when I was about 19 and needed a packet of cigarettes in the early hours of the morning and was talked into going to an all-night garage in east Belfast by a mate. The place was crawling with UVF men when I got there who by the looks of it had been on partol in the area. I got away with the smokes after a couple of questions but it was scary stuff. Suffice to say I don't smoke any more! Keresaspa (talk) 21:38, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

What kind of questions did they ask you? When I took those photos in Island Street a group of guys were painting a UVF mural, they all stopped to watch me as my son and I approached. I saw one guy detach himself from the group. I immediately rushed over to him and with all politeness asked him directions to Harland and Wolf which he gave and was very pleasant as well. He was also nice-looking which helps as he obviously gets his share of women so does not resent them as ugly guys tend to do. I came accroos his photo on Internet shortly afterwards. His name was Eddie something. I was told back in 1981 when I first visited Belfast that if a loyalist gang stopped people the first thing they'd ask is for the person/persons being grilled to sing The Sash.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:18, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

It was just basic stuff about where we were going and where we had been, not a million miles away from the sort of stuff the cops would have asked. I was a little drunk at the time so my mate, who was from east Belfast, did most of the talking. A trick both sides used to pull was to ask you to spell the word "the" as, for some strange reason, Catholic schools taught people to say "haitch" and Protestant schools taught people to say "aitch". Why this was the case I have no idea but to this day when I have to give out my postcode (which contains the letter H) I always prepare in advance for which version to use depending on where I am. Old habits die hard! Mind you the IRA patrol was slightly scarier as two of the people in the car with me were English. Thnakfully they didn't open their mouths or some awkward questions would have followed. Keresaspa (talk) 18:16, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually I had heard that if you were stopped by the IRA it would have been fatal to speak Irish as they would have assumed you were a tout. Dervla Murphy made the mistake of doing so in a south Armagh pub.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:27, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I could write the Irish I know on the back of a baby's hand so that wouldn't be an issue for me. Mind you I heard that rumour myself. Keresaspa (talk) 19:51, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Davy Adams and William Plum Smith

I like your two newest articles. So who are we missing now? I wikilinked Chris Hudson, who I believe merits an article as he helped bring about the loyalist ceasefire and is quite notable as a Presbyterian minister in Belfast. He and his church (near Queens) are staunch supporters of gay rights in Northern Ireland. Yes, I think he should definitely have his own article.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:15, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Good old insomnia strikes again so Davy and Plum arrived! I agree about Chris Hudson though as he turns up a lot in the literature. I'm out of town for the next few days though so edits from me will dry up for a while but if you create it I'll have a look when I get back. Keresaspa (talk) 16:30, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Great work on these articles. I fully agree with your proposed move - all the more reliable sources give "Red Hand Commando", as do the murals. On the subject of other possible articles, I was thinking of Jim Anderson, co-chairman of the UDA with Harding Smith. Sam McClelland, an early stand-in for Spence as leader of the UVF, seems like he should be notable, but I can't find many sources. Other early UDA figures who might merit an article include Sammy Doyle, Davy Fogel, Ernie "Duke" Elliott, Jean Moore and Ingram Beckitt. Among later figures, there look to be plenty of reliable sources for an article on Billy McFarland and also Ned McCreery. Warofdreams talk 20:28, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Glad you agree. I'll go ahead and make the move now. And some good ideas for articles too - I'll have a look at some when I get back next week. Keresaspa (talk) 22:20, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Your sources

Greetings. I have noticed that one of the books you have used re. Third Reich stuff is the Encyclopedia of the Third Reich by Louis Leo Snyder. I would like to know if that book differs significantly from the Encyclopedia of the Third Reich? Are these two books related in any way? Physically the two books are quite different, and they have different authors so I assume that they are completely separate. Also, I have skimmed through the Snyder book in the past - have you made it a point to include every person with an article in that book in Wikipedia? It is a given that everyone in that book is notable.Hoops gza (talk) 02:00, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

I haven't read the Encyclopedia of the Third Reich listed on here so I couldn't comment for sure but the description in the article leads me to assume that they are quite different as Snyder's book examines the Second World War and is also written from a fairly American perspective. When I first made the list of redlinks the only person to appear on it but also have an entry in Snyder was Reinhold Muchow, whose article I sussequently created. Obviously the very best source for the redlinks would be either edition of Klee's book, both of which appear frequently as references in the various pages, but I don't have a copy of either and can't read German. Keresaspa (talk) 02:40, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

So am I correct in thinking that every person in Snyder's book has an article on the English Wikipedia and is also included on the List of Nazis (if they were party members)?Hoops gza (talk) 16:25, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

yes. Some of the generals and the like that appear in Snyder are not in List of Nazis but those are the type we have already covered where there is no evidence that they were actual Nazi Party members. Keresaspa (talk) 18:18, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

David Alexander Mulholland

Hi. The other day I discovered that suspected Dublin bomber David Alexander Mulholland died in 2003, so I created an article on him. What do you think? Oh, another editor created a special template for loyalist paramilitaries and it has been added to all relevant pages. As for loyalists needing articles, what about Mo Courtney, Jackie Mahood, and Fat Jackie Thompson? Stewart Young would be good but he's still alive and denies Weir's allegations about him.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 05:15, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Excellent. I'll see if I can add anything tonight but it looks very good. I also noticed the template had just appeared. Seems a useful way to link them all and for me part I've always been a fan of templates. The three you mention would probably make decent articles. I have already read up a bit on Mahood as I had him in mind for creation myself so I might have a crack at that later too. Keresaspa (talk) 17:39, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Another creepy character was Maze Prison Officer John Hanna. According to Andy Tyrie he had a hand in John McMichael's death. Sean O'Callaghan also had some scary stories to tell about him in his autobiography.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:38, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Hanna was an odd fish and no mistake. Shady character. By the way I changed my mind and tackled Mo Courtney first instead. Keresaspa (talk) 21:32, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Great job as well. I really enjoyed reading it! It's well-written, with good refs provided. I assessed it as a B Class. Nice one, Keresaspa!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:10, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Ah, you're a good un! I'll probably have a go at another redlink later - either one of the two above or one of those suggested above by Warofdreams. Keresaspa (talk) 18:19, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I've been doing a bit of editing on Jackie McDonald. Peter Taylor seemed to like him.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:30, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Looking good. Defintely an article that needed expanding is he is a big figure. I'll see if I have anything worth adding later. Keresaspa (talk) 19:53, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

McDonald's very charismatic. I like the way you expanded his article; it certainly needed more info as he's very notable. I did however, remove one paragraph as it might violate BLP, despite it having a ref.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 06:08, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

I had a feeling that one might go for that reason. Mind you I had a mate in Taughmonagh who liked a bit of reefer. You don't need to guess whom he always bought that off! Keresaspa (talk) 16:30, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Is Taughmonagh near Shaftsbury Square? I cannot place it.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:55, 7 June 2011 (UTC)--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:55, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Not really. It's not a million miles away but not in the whole Sandy Row/Donegall Road area despite being part of the same Brigade. The best way to get to it is to go up from Shaftesbury Square past Queen's Uni onto the Malone Road and way up it until you get to a place called Barnett Demesne about two and a half miles away. Taughmonagh is near this land on the Upper Malone Road. It's not actually a very big area and most of the houses surrounding it are quite fancy apart from Taughmonagh itself. Mind you even it looks OK now compared to the way it used to look - it was always known as Tin Town because a lot of the houses had a corrugated iron roof. Oddly you can also get to it from some of the roads that lead out of the Falls Road but I always get a bit confused by that part of town as it is a real maze. Keresaspa (talk) 19:05, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

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