Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 228
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Burning of Smyrna
![]() | Closed. The filing unregistered editor has been blocked for one week. The other parties, and the filing editor after coming off block, should resolve any content disputes by normal editing. If normal editing does not resolve a dispute, a neutrally worded RFC may be used, but should be neutrally worded. Do not edit-war. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:02, 13 February 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Noticing propaganda on the caption of photo in article, I edited it out due to no reference (naively). Edit was reversed in 2 minutes with claim that content justified it. Found that Wikipedia does not allow interpretation and neither in a caption, I again deleted propaganda interpretation. My edit was reversed again within two hours with additional propaganda of genocide, with 2 weak references added. Editor said to Talk for Consensus. I wrote a long paragraph in Talk, pointing out my reasons for my edit in minute detail and disputing the validity of his references. Editor responded by writing they will add a new paragraph (never did, and now shows up as retired from Wikipedia!) I noted that Wikipedia was not for propaganda. Editor asked my reason for objecting to his references, and I explained in detail. No more replies from editor, although after 4 days I wrote further citing their various Wikipedia violations. Waited more days, then made a more involved edit with 2 additional references and accompanying text modifications. I also made a literal translation under an existing reference to remove a misrepresentation of what was said in reference. This edit was now reversed before a day passed by a brand new editor (replacing retired one?) with boilerplate edit summary with no proof. I undid this reversal citing my reasons (edit summary & Talk). Reversal was quick but no Talk. My undoing of reversal was again reversed the same evening, by yet another editor, again with boilerplate edit summary, but no proof. I decided that I am against a coordinated effort to lead me to an edit war which I cannot win, due to rotating non-responsive editors that do not participate in Talk. Therefore Talk was futile. I have already indicated in the Talk page my intent to escalate the issue. My edits and points are valid and the reversing editors have not brought any proofs, but have simply quickly reversed my edits citing vague incorrect reasons. Neither have they "Talk"ed. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? By considering the Wikipedia rules and violations, judging the content, trying to suppress propaganda, what to do when editors that are quick on the trigger when reverting (2 minutes response time?) will not Talk (how can consensus be reached then?), and by looking for ways to deal with the rotating editors issue. A single person like me cannot have an edit hold in such a case for obvious reasons. Most importantly, the value of the edit content goes to zero no matter how significant. Summary of dispute by TimothyBlueI have limited ability to connect and post atm; I will be more available next week. My involvement here is from the infobox, but I support the reverts made by @Te og kaker:. I stated on the talk page that I would add more sources to post and will, although the existing sources are fine. @Robert McClenon:: I think the ip's statements about the ethnicity and religion of editors and authors (here and on the talk page) needs to be addressed. // Timothy :: talk 02:33, 2 February 2023 (UTC) @70.164.212.36: were you recently editing from the IP 184.179.106.251? // Timothy :: talk 03:04, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by 79.107.121.185Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Te og kakerPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I actually came across this article by coincidence and noticed that it was written in a very clearly propaganda-based language, and had obviously been edited by a user with an agenda, and decided to enter the edit history in order to revert to a NPOV version independently of any other users' decisions to do the same previously. The user also falsely claims that I am a "brand new editor" (which is obviously false, as my contribution log goes back to 2013), and has insinuated twice that I am a sockpuppet of a user with which I obviously have no relation. The user also posted a complaint on my talk page in this morning, complaining over the fact that I had not replied to his post on the talk page, which was posted at five o clock in the night - at a time when I don't think it is necessary to tell you that I was sleeping, and I just can't believe that this user actually expected a reply at that point. In fact, I have not had the chance to reply to this user's accusations before now, due to the fact that I was working late today. It is quite striking that this user is continuing his edit warring on this article; look at the edit history and see how massive the user's edit warring has been. The user has also used at least two different IPs on the talk page and has now also created an account with the purpose of propagating the Turkish narrative of the event (which is supported by very few scholars outside Turkey), making his agenda very obvious, particularly considering that the IP/user has no other edits than the agenda-pushing on this particular article. The narrative propagated as truth by the user has little scholarly support and runs contrary to numerous contemporary eyewitness reports of the burning - yet the user attempts to propagate this narrative as truth. The edits committed by the user includes
I don't think I need to elaborate this further. The user's edits is written as an argumentative essay which tries to propagate a point of view. Add to this the user's very argumentative behaviour on talk pages (as well as here), his aggressive edit warring, single-topic editing as well as editing the article as well as the talk page with two IPs as well as an account obviously created for this purpose, as well as claiming to be the victim of a "coordinated effort" against him, repeatedly insinuating that those who revert him are sockpuppets etc. His agenda is very obvious. I am actually a bit surprised that his edit warring has not led to any sanctions against his IP(s) and user account yet. --Te og kaker (talk) 22:47, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
Burning of Smyrna discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by moderator (Smyrna)I may possibly act as the mediator in moderated discussion. First, I will ask the editors to read the usual rules, will comment that the above posts are too long, and will ask a few questions. Do the editors agree to take part in moderated discussion, subject to the rules that have been read? Is this an article content dispute? That is, is there a question about whether to change something in the article or leave it the same? If so, will each editor please state in one paragraph what they want changed or left the same. (If the list of changes is long, summarize and say it is long. If you can't summarize, pause and think and try to sunmmarize.) Be civil and concise. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:07, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Smyrna)Statement one-half by volunteer (Smyrna)I don't have a good feeling about the prospects for moderated discussion in this case. The filing unregistered editor has, in advance, demanded assurance that the moderator not belong to or be married to certain ethnic groups, and has raised an issue about the moderator's religion. In response to instructions to provide a concise statement as to what each editor wants changed in the article, the filing editor has provided a lengthy statement referring to previous lengthy statements, and has stated that the lengthy statements should be read in detail. I don't belong to any of the ethnic groups, and I don't think that my religion, which is not the historical religious affiliation of any of the indicated ethnic groups, will interfere with my neutrality. However, I do not intend to moderate a dispute when one of the parties starts with a list of demands about the moderator and with a lengthy statement of what they want. Filing a request for moderated discussion but then imposing a list of conditions for the moderator is not evidence of a good-faith desire to resolve this dispute. I don't think that either a registered editor or an unregistered editor should provide an advance list of conditions for participation in moderation, but that is only my opinion. I will comment that making a long list of conditions isn't in the best interests of an unregistered editor, because one likely result of failure of a request for moderated discussion is semi-protection, but if someone wants to impose preconditions, they will impose preconditions. I am not opening this case for moderated discussion but am not closing it either. I don't think that the filing unregistered editor will be able to find a moderator, but this case request will be left open for at least a few more days before it is either closed due to the lack of a moderator or archived by the archival bot, which will have the same effect of closing it for lack of a moderator. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:50, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
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The Daily Sceptic
![]() | Closed as not required. A statement was made that discussion had been insufficient, and then 48 hours elapsed, after which time discussion is still insufficient. Resume discussion on the article talk page if there is still a content dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:42, 14 February 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview User Rwatson1955 has repeatedly changed the wording of one of the lead sentences from "It has published misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines and climate change denial." to "It has been accused of publishing misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines and climate change denial." (both statements are well-sourced, and I have added quotes from the sources where possible). How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:The_Daily_Sceptic#Lead_edits How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Providing the best wording for the sentence would be helpful. Summary of dispute by Rwatson1955Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by tgeorgescuRwatson1955 was formally warned that they are editing contentious topics. If they don't desist, WP:AE is just around the corner. I know that DRN is privileged, so I won't be reporting them for their edits at WP:DRN. Imho, the proper forum for discussing their edits is AE, not DRN. So bad are their edits. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:18, 12 February 2023 (UTC) The Daily Sceptic discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Onimai: I'm Now Your Sister!
![]() | Closed as resolved by discussion between the editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:23, 24 February 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview The current review reads like an advertisement, and I want to change it to read more encylopedic rather than be a collection of review summaries. I said repeatedly that too much weight was given to the individual reviews rather than reading encyclopedic and the author of that section, which several other people on the talk page have echoed that it reads like an advertisement. The editor accused me of just wanting to defend it or "not liking it what i was reading" and "removing content" when I just wanted to change it to read more in a more encyclopedic 'prose' rather than sound like someone fangirling over various reviewers. This is not a demonstration of the critical reception, referencing various reviews and collecting them into an encyclopedic prose. This is someone who's gotten so emotionally invested in keeping what they have written that they wrote me an entire essay I have no way to even begin to respond to bordering on badgering. "which generally gives me the impression that your grievance has very little to do with concerns about neutrality and more with that you seem to dislike the opinion being expressed. " "but I'm generally suspicious of the numerous editors, particularly the anonymous users, who keep trying to erase the reception. It feels to me like they are (unconsciously perhaps), trying to make a WP:POINT out of a desire to defend the show against the critics who hate it. I don't like the idea of acquiescing to that attitude..." These are quotes from the other user. I seirously do not know how I can try to resolve this with someone's who's only intention is shutting everyone else out because its gotten into their head that everyone who dislikes what they wrote is only trying to defend it. The editor made snipy edit summaries too and clearly has it in their head that I want to defend this and "remove information". I do not know how I can talk about wanting this to read more encyclopedic which would require restructuring the entire section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarmaniLink (talk • contribs) 17:13, 19 February 2023 (UTC) How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Onimai: I'm Now Your Sister! How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I do not want to see the information removed, I want to see the section changed into a more encyclopedic prose rather than be a collection of review summaries. Please get that through this editor's head. Summary of dispute by BlankpopsiclesilviaASHs4A few weeks ago, I added the majority of the current reception section to the article, beginning with this edit and subsequent additions. Since then, the information has been removed tendentiously by multiple people, almost all of whom were either IPs or new accounts, who reverted the changes for varying invalid and subjective reasons ranging from "irrelevant western drivel" to "self promotional material". All of these editors have been reverted by either me or other established editors watching the talk page, but have persisted to the point that the article was at one time briefly semi-protected. One such editor wrote a message, described by Link20XX as "baseless," claiming that ANN was sabotaging the article (I am not affiliated with the site or its contributors, and do not personally agree with most of the opinions of the reviewers). With respect, I believe that DarmaniLink is not accurately representing the situation when they say that there are "several other people" who disagree, when those people are all drive-by IP editors and apparent WP:SPAs who have made few or no other contributions, and all other established editors contributing to the article seem to agree that the current reception summary should be retained (although I don't wish to speak for them, but to my point, they have not yet had a voice in this discussion). While I can respect the concern that the reception section may be unbalanced, there has not been adequate justification for this assessment shown, other than an inaccurate characterization of ANN and Anifem as "some random idiot who writes blogs" and spurious claims that what the reviewers think of the production quality, humor, narrative and themes, and particularly the queer lens through which the show is read, amount to "unencyclopedic" "silly quotes", when such things are all important factors included in many other articles (including the GA Homura Akemi, and the FA Naruto, the example linked by disputing editor below for comparison). There's nothing wrong with attributing an opinion to an individual. In fact it's essential that we do, because to WP:ASSERT that "the website said" rather than "x person, of this website, said" would be improper attribution, and give the impression that the site is a monolith and not made up of individual contributors with distinct opinions, and this would be inaccurate and a major POV failing. Lastly, I disagree with the assessment that the proportion to which ANN is represented in the article is undue, or an advertisement. There is no promotional language included, and their inclusion in the section is proportional both to how much the site has said relative to other publications, and both how much each reviewer has said (each reviewer from the preview article gets about a sentence or two, tops, while Kim Morrissy has a longer paragraph in proportion to their more in-depth review). When and if more coverage comes to light (the series is still ongoing), I naturally expect the proportion to which ANN is represented to diminish accordingly, but as it stands there is not yet any good reason that I can see to make such sweeping cuts from a developing article on a current topic. silvia (BlankpopsiclesilviaASHs4) (inquire within) 19:37, 19 February 2023 (UTC) Onimai: I'm Now Your Sister! discussion (Back-and-forth)Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Naruto is one of the featured articles in the project. Please look at its reception section and compare it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarmaniLink (talk • contribs) 18:30, 19 February 2023 (UTC) "and particularly the queer lens through which the show is read, amount to "unencyclopedic" "silly quotes"" I never ONCE said or implied anything about the "queer lens" and in fact I included the interpretation when I tried to create a new "baseplate" for the section that could easily demonstrate the show's mixed/poor reception, even stating that "There was a consensus among reviewers that the story had a positive transgender interpretation." I have zero idea where this even came from. The fact that you chose to put words in my mouth here is why we're on here. I'm trying to work with you and compromise but you seem to be unwilling to do so, acting as if you take ownership over that section. DarmaniLink (talk) 21:42, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
Zeroth statement by moderator (Onimai)I am willing to moderate this dispute. It appears that there is discussion taking place here, and the discussion may be useful, so we will use a set of rules that permit back-and-forth discussion. Be civil and concise. Please read the rules and acknowledge that you agree to them. Comment on content, not contributors. You may continue the discussion. Please make a one-paragraph statement as to what the main issues are. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:16, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Onimai)The section currently reads like a summary of individual reviews rather than a back and forth discussion like other similar articles, integrating the praise and the criticisms into a back and forth prose similar to Naruto. I was trying to make concessions but it was very hard to respond to 5 paragraphs of text without just speaking in bullet points for the sake of brevity. I'm still fairly new to actually using this website. I made this account back in I think 2018? but didn't really start using it until early this month. I didn't know a lot of the policies on reviews being reliable, I learned more, and I tried to compromise but I was just getting hounded. All I want at this point is for this to be a more back and forth between the two sides like the other articles. DarmaniLink (talk) 01:29, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
First statement by moderator (Onimai)Are there any specific paragraphs in the article that an editor thinks should be revised, and that another editor thinks should be left the same? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:04, 21 February 2023 (UTC) It appears that one editor is saying that the article should be revised to have a back and forth style, rather than summarizing what the reviews have said. In an article about a literary work, the reviews are the secondary reliable sources, and we should say what the reviews say. Either I don't understand what a back and forth style is, or it will be a synthesis amounting to original research. So either identify paragraphs about which there is a content disagreement, or explain what the issue is, or if one editor wants a rewrite of parts of the article, then I can provide a draft version of the article for rewriting. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:04, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
First statements by editors (Onimai)I think we got to that at the end of the last discussion, basically just do more of a literary conversation (analysis was the wrong word choice here) between the opposition and the acolytes with more weight on the opposition as there's more opposition overall. At this point, I have no remaining complaints. DarmaniLink DarmaniLink (talk) 22:09, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
Second statement by moderator (Onimai)It appears that there is agreement. If there is agreement, the editors may edit the article as agreed on. If either the editors state that there is agreement, or the editors do not disagree for 36 hours, I will close the case as resolved. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:25, 22 February 2023 (UTC) Second statements by editors (Onimai)I have no disagreement with the current consensus and am prepared to collaborate constructively on editing the article according to what we've agreed upon above. Assuming that DarmaniLink has no further concerns, I believe the dispute has been resolved and may now be closed. silvia (BlankpopsiclesilviaASHs4) (inquire within) 06:08, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
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Applied behavior analysis
![]() | Closed as never really started. Three days after the editors were asked to state briefly what their content issues were with the article and whether they wanted moderated discussion, there have been no replies. If there are any issues about article content, please discuss them on the article talk page, Talk:Applied behavior analysis. If the opinions of other editors are sought, they may be requested at WikiProject Psychology. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:33, 1 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview This page has been a perennial source of controversy on Wikipedia, reflecting the controversial nature of the subject. The current dispute has a few dimensions to it:
Debate on these questions has been heavily polarised and somewhat circular in nature, involving a small number of participants on either side and a few onlookers who have largely felt unable to reach conclusions. A Request for Comments (recently expired) and an appeal to WikiProject:Medicine yielded some insights, but nothing approaching a resolution. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Applied_behavior_analysis#Request_for_Comment:_dealing_with_controversies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#Applied_behavior_analysis_-_assistance_requested How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? It would be useful to have outside opinions on the questions listed: how to describe controversies, what counts as a biomedical claim, whether it makes sense to name applications in a lead that are never described in the body, etc. Summary of dispute by BarbarbartyPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The main source of contention, in my view, is what belongs in the lead and what does not. Originally, there was a “long version” of a description of controversies about ABA that seemed in the view of some editors, including myself, as prejudicial or seemed to slant the article towards being overtly negative towards the subject, when ABA is actually still much debated and has many credible supporters, as well as detractors, who according to most sources mainly originate from the autistic rights movement. There is also the question of a list that User:ATC added that had a list of applications for ABA and a source along with it that I have been told does not support the information that was written, however it was behind a paywall so I am still unable to access it. There was also the concern that such a list would include biomedical claims and thus require a higher standard then a simple statement of fact. I eventually removed this list as multiple users corroborated the sentiment that the list was unsubstantiated, but I feel such a list of applications could be added in the future provided there is a quality source. My sentiment has been that controversies can be stated in the lead, but in a brief and concise mannee that does not violate WP:NPOV, and controversies major and minor can be elaborated on in length in the body of the article. Summary of dispute by ATCThere are blogs and magazine sources cited related to autism and neurodiversity, which are not valid for Wikipedia standards. Also, there is a misperception by some within the high functioning autism community that ABA is prejudice because it was associated with a history of aversives (which are currently outdated), and when applied as an intervention for autism, not every therapist is always properly trained. It's just positive reinforcement and motivation. Also, there are notable autistic people who have become behavior analysts, and Temple Grandin highly endorses ABA as well (she even noted the speech therapy program she received as a young girl consisted of a lot of what's seen in high quality ABA programs today). As outlined in this Cochrane Review, the reason why Lovaas' 1987 study wasn't fully replicated (the amount of children that progressed in language was half of what was reported in '87, other than the IQ scores being reproduced in the vast majority) is because after his study was published, the diagnostic criteria widened to include higher functioning forms of ASD, so there is now a wide range of different learning styles (in terms of which form of ABA children with autism acquire spoken language from). ATC . Talk 22:03, 27 February 2023 (UTC)Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by HaiFire3344Multiple aspects of the lead have been involved in this dispute, namely the controversy section, the list of applications, and the first sentence. The length of the controversy section of the lead has varied over time, at one point being very long. I feel that Oolong found a good sweet spot with this edit, which I and at least one other user agreed had more neutral wording than a shortened version that came soon after. (However, concerns were later raised about the reliability of the Autistic Not Weird survey cited in the next edit and the Sandoval-Norton references; I cannot speak on how well those concerns hold up.) The shortest version of the controversy section came off as minimizing the controversy surrounding ABA, and edits were made to try and address this. Finding the best length, wording, and content for the controversy section with the most neutrality without minimizing the controversy is a priority. The list of biomedical applications of ABA was virtually entirely unsourced and should not have been in the lead given the lack of elaboration in the body. Another point of contention was that ATC insisted on describing ABA as a "(scientific) discipline" in the first sentence, which is not at all a precise description of ABA; I believe that it is better to describe ABA as a psychological intervention, as ABA is a part of applied psychology and fits the definition of interventions. HaiFire3344 (talk) 00:04, 22 February 2023 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Sideswipe9thPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Apologies for not responding sooner. My attention has been on several other articles and discussions of late, so I'm not aware of where the current dispute on the article currently lies. I'll try and get read up on it over the next couple of days, if that's OK with the moderator and other editors involved. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:31, 27 February 2023 (UTC) Applied behavior analysis discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by moderator (Behavior)It appears that there is agreement that this article is at an impasse, but there isn't agreement as to what the reason for the impasse is, and so there isn't agreement on how to resolve it. This noticeboard usually provides moderated discussion, which is intended to result either in compromise or in the formulation of a neutral RFC. I am first asking all editors to read the usual rules, and then make a statement answering my questions. Your statement should be addressed to me and to the community. Do not reply to another editor's statement. My questions are:
Robert McClenon (talk) 18:46, 25 February 2023 (UTC) Statement one-half by moderator (Applied behavior analysis)If you have an issue with the content of the article, please state concisely what your article content issue is. Otherwise this case will be closed. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:03, 27 February 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Behavior)Back-and-forth discussion (Applied behavior analysis)
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Turntablist transcription_methodology
![]() | Closed as premature. There has been no discussion on the article talk page. Also, it does not appear to be an article content dispute. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:52, 1 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Many years ago a Wiki creator(s) created pages that detailed my work. In recent times I notice some inaccuracies and misinformation. I updated and corrected the post with verified links, and cited references. Over the past year, I've seen some of my verifications and updates get removed by a single user. 600+ text, numerous links, and cited references are removed regularly.
Please review the history to see the back-and-forth activity. [ https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turntablist_transcription_methodology&action=history ]
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? 1. Please ask "67.84.59.87" to provide cited references for their changes. 2. Please ask "67.84.59.87" not to remove existing references and links. 3. Please explain something about the Wiki mission to "67.84.59.87" - Eg. Wikipedia's purpose is to benefit readers by offering a comprehensive written compendium in a fair and accurate manner. The removal of verified factual information is not aligned with the mission. 4. Ask the Wiki community to assist in this. Any help is appreciated. Summary of dispute by 67.84.59.87Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Turntablist transcription_methodology discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Soaring Sky! Pretty Cure
![]() | Closed. This does not seem to be a content dispute, and has not been discussed at the article talk page, and the other editors have not been notified. Try discussing on the article talk page. That is what the article talk page is for. Report edit-warring at the edit-warring noticeboard. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview From the get go why I am saying this, the page has some multiple cases of edit issues. I am seeing some users including some information that shouldn't be out or released considering Toei doesn't like things to be leaked for spoiler basis. There is one issue about the episode list which someone doesn't want it to be spun off despite its taking up space from the main article. Its a mess, Pretty Cure fans are totally unhinged and were a bit of LOCO when it comes to upcoming content. I do wish this gets resolved. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Soaring_Sky!_Pretty_Cure&action=history How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Enforce some heavy moderation on articles that revolve around any Toei Animation / Toei related series and everything. Summary of dispute by Ckng9000Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by BaldiBasicsFanPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by 37.162.136.158Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Soaring Sky! Pretty Cure discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Coat of arms of Lithuania
![]() | Closed. An RFC is being used to choose a section on Belarus. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:38, 3 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview There is a content dispute regarding subsection Coat of arms of Lithuania#Belarus (what should be kept/removed in it). Short context below. Previously the Belarusian territories were part of Lithuania (see: Grand Duchy of Lithuania), therefore the Belarusians used the Coat of arms of Lithuania until 1795. In 1918 Lithuania was restored and part of Belarusians once again sought to restore pre-1795 Lithuanian territory, therefore institutions such as Lithuanian Ministry for Belarusian Affairs, Grodno Military Command and multiple Lithuanian-Belarusian units were formed (most notably, the 1st Belarusian Regiment which sought to preserve capital Vilnius and Grodno within Lithuanian territory). All of them extensively used the coat of arms of Lithuania as official symbol. Grodno was the third largest city (after Vilnius, Kaunas) where the Lithuanian Army was active and an important stronghold of pro-Lithuanian Belarusians. However, post-WW1 Poland pursued expansionist aims in the former territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, thus invaded Vilnius, Grodno (and other minor cities). It resulted in repressions against pro-Lithuanian soldiers and Lithuanian symbolism used by them (e.g. on uniforms, flags) and removals of the coat of arms of Lithuania from buildings, etc. Eventually, in 1921 Belarus was partitioned into two parts (Western and Eastern). This is an important part of history of the coat of arms of Lithuania in the interwar period. All this is currently described in this subsection and with WP:RS references, but Polish users (Marcelus, Piotrus) demand to nearly completely remove content from this subsection and accuses that it is allegedly anti-Polish. However, Lithuanians (I and Cukrakalnis) disagree with such removals and say that it is a well-referenced content and censorship of the Polish repressions against the coat of arms of Lithuania and soldiers using it would be a violation of WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:NPOV. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? This subsection should be evaluated by a neutral person (administrator?) who is familiar with WP:NOTCENSORED, WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE. I think other subsections in section "Similar coats of arms" should be expanded instead of nearly completely erasing the most comprehensive one about Belarus. Maybe some content from subsection "Belarus" should be moved (if it is WP:UNDUE) to subsection "Republic of Lithuania in the interwar period" as it is important for describing the interwar history of this symbol. Summary of dispute by MarcelusPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Contrary to what the submitter says, "anti-Polishness" is not the main reason why the content of the "Belarus" section is disputed. Although undoubtedly the text is written in a style that suggests that the reluctant to Poland author wanted to prove something, it describes in specific detail the alleged "insulting" of Belarusian/Lithuanian symbols by the Polish military, or one-sidedly describes the "Polish imperialism" mentioned by Pofka. First of all, however, the section that is supposed to describe CoAs occurring in Belarus that are similar to the Lithuanian CoA devotes almost half the space to describing one of the Belarusian units in the Lithuanian army (which has a separate article 1st Belarusian Regiment). It devotes a lot of space to other Lithuanian institutions (Grodno Military Command, Lithuanian Ministry of Belarusian Affairs), making it more about Lithuania than Belarus, and more about politics than heraldry. In addition, the section's narrative is that Belarus came into being only because of Lithuania's influence and "domination." Pofka's proposal has a similar problem. @Pofka also forgot to mention that the dispute began with my proposal, in which I tried to eliminate the above-mentioned flaws (User:Marcelus/sandbox5). In it I tried to describe in the first paragraph why Pahonia/Vytis became the national symbol of Belarus and how it took root in the country, after which I listed the Belarusian institutions that used this symbol in chronological order. This was only a proposal, which may be subject to change. Apart from anything else, I don't understand why Pofka decided to devote two paragraphs of his report to a description of Belarusian-Lithuanian relations and Polish expansionism, I don't know what it brings to our dispute (it is otherwise full of simplifications and misrepresentations). Since it is out of the scope of the section, which is intended to describe "Similiar coats of arms" to "Lithuanian Coat of Arms" in "Belarus", not all the things Pofka mentions. To much politics and military history, not enough heraldry.Marcelus (talk) 22:47, 2 February 2023 (UTC) Summary of dispute by PiotrusBelated reply - I was AFK for a while. When this popped up on my watchlist, I indeed decided to significantly trim the section in question for reasons explained in edit summary and my comment on talk. Briefly - the very lenghty subsection on "Belarus" was very UNDUE to the topic at hand (namely, "Coat of arms of Lithuania"). Most of the content I removed did not even mention said coat of arms - just look at my diff and CTRL+F for "coat". Frankly, it looked to me like some Belarusian POV pushing of content that is irrelevant to Lithuania onto this article. There was also some rather non-neutral and minute detail about an incident in which allegedly, some Poles defaced the symbol when worn by some Belarusian volunteers in the Lithuanian army. I moved that to the newly created article on 1st Belarusian Regiment, where it could may be kept (after some neutral rewriting), but to mention this in the article on the "Coat of arms of Lithuania" seems both UNDUE and POVed - it's like mentioning one of many US flag burning incidents in an article about American flag, etc. Having read the discussion in this RfC I stand by my initial judegement: 90% of the content in this section is off topic, some of it arguably fails NPOV, and should be removed or moved. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:30, 10 February 2023 (UTC) Summary of dispute by CukrakalnisPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Marcelus kept removing ([5], [6], [7]) a section claiming that it was "irrelevant", "unrelated" and "off-topic" on 29-30 December 2022. The section in question is obviously relevant to the topic of Coat of arms of Lithuania because it is about how the Lithuanian coat of arms was used by pro-Lithuanian Belarusian civilian institutions and military units in an area that Poland invaded after the Lithuanian government established itself there via military units. During the Polish takeover, the Polish mistreated the coat of arms of Lithuania and replaced them with Polish signs. The mention of this fact attracted the attention of Marcelus in early October 2021 when his reaction to these facts was: Based on this, it is clear that Marcelus wants to remove the section because he considers it "anti-Polish propaganda" etc. Still, because this argument was insufficiently convincing for the removal of text based on WP:RS more than a year ago, then Marcelus has now re-opened the question and shifted the argument to emphasize how text concerning military and civilian institutions using the Coat of arms of Lithuania is somehow irrelevant to an article about that same coat of arms. After the discussion inconclusively stalled (which is what generally happens in discussions between anyone and Marcelus within the topic of Lithuania), Piotrus after writing briefly on the talk page swooped in to remove the section on January 20 during a still active RfC. I frankly gave up on this issue and only raised some questions about the correctness of such a removal on the talk page that same day and since then was on a brief holiday away from Wikipedia (since January 25 until today, Febuary 5), partly in order to WP:DEESCALATE. Notably, Piotrus previously had not edited the article at all since 14 October 2005 and his last message on the talk page before his edits on 20 January 2023 was on 15 September 2020. I'm not accusing anybody of anything, but Piotrus has involved himself more than once in places ([8], [9]) where Marcelus was extensively involved before Piotrus came along. This exchange on Marcelus' wiki.pl talk page between Marcelus and Piotrus definitely indicates that they have each other's emails. Meanwhile, while I was away, Pofka decided to involve himself into this. Unsurprisingly so, because he had been a very active contributor to the article, with his last contribution to it being on 3 March 2022, just twelve days before he was temporarily topic banned since 15 March 2022 due to a report by Marcelus. Pofka successfully appealed the ban and it was lifted on January 12. Then, he became involved on January 29 and the new reignited discussion resulted in the talk page size growing from 133,749 bytes on January 20 to 174,703 bytes on February 2 (no one edited the talk page since then, as of now). Overall, after some thought, I agree to Pofka's proposals because they seem reasonable.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 16:04, 5 February 2023 (UTC) Summary of dispute by GizzyCatBellaPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Coat of arms of Lithuania discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by moderator (Lithuania)I am ready to act as the moderator for this dispute if moderated discussion is still wanted. Please read the rules and indicate whether you are willing to comply with the rules and want moderated discussion. Also, if you are ready for moderated discussion, please indicate in one paragraph what you either want changed in the article, or left the same that another editor wants changed. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do you want moderated discussion subject to my usual rules? Robert McClenon (talk) 06:51, 8 February 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Lithuania)@Robert McClenon: Yes I want moderated discussion according to the rules. I believe no changes should be made to this well-referenced (with WP:RS) and extensive but at the same time quite short subsection-summary of the coat of arms of Lithuania usage in Belarus and by Lithuanian-Belarusian units, institutions. However, if neutral moderator decision will be that it is WP:UNDUE, then I agree to replace it with my shortened version (see here: User:Pofka/sandbox/CoA of Lithuania: Belarus). Nevertheless, what I strictly oppose is to replace statements based on WP:NPOV WP:RSes (e.g. Encyclopedia Britannica) with Marcelus' suggested version which replaces Britannica's WP:NPOV evaluation of the history of Lithuania and its coat of arms with statements based not on Lithuanian, not on WP:NPOV sources but on "Belarusian national movement" sources (point of view) because such content is not WP:NPOV (especially in an article about Lithuania) and belongs to article Belarusian nationalism (and maybe to articles National emblem of Belarus, Litvinism). The current version already mention that "Belarusian nationalists claimed that the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was a Belarusian state, which is why they adopted its symbol" and that is absolutely enough because it is WP:NATIONALISM type of content. I think that extensive presentation of the history of Lithuania and its coat of arms as Belarusian (so not as Lithuanian, according to the Belarusian national movement point of view) would be a WP:POVPUSH of Litvinist (WP:FRINGE, WP:NATIONALISM) content and point of view, thus it certainly would not improve WP:NPOV situation of the disputed subsection. Moreover, I disagree that facts about the 1st Belarusian Regiment, Lithuanian Ministry for Belarusian Affairs, Grodno Military Command and Polish Army's atrocities, repressions against Lithuanian-Belarusian units and their Lithuanian-Belarusian symbolism in Grodno should be removed because they are inextricably related with the coat of arms of Lithuania and I think their removal would be a violation of WP:NPOV, WP:NOTCENSORED (maybe some content could be moved to subsection "Republic of Lithuania in the interwar period"). -- Pofka (talk) 22:11, 8 February 2023 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: Moderated discussion is a good idea. Basically, my postulate is that the section we are talking about should be on WP:TOPIC. In this case, it is the occurrence of Lithuanian or similar coat of arms (Vytis/Pahonia) in Belarus. Since the section should not be long, and at the same time summarized more than 500 years of history it should include only the basic information. Devoting some 4,000 characters to considering the ethnogenesis of the Belarusians, their cultural subordination to the Lithuanians, a description of several Lithuanian military institutions and formations, and how they were disbanded by the Polish army, certainly seems excessive. I postulate, therefore, the removal of superfluous elements and a concise description of the subject within the scope of the article.Marcelus (talk) 13:53, 9 February 2023 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: I want the section Coat_of_arms_of_Lithuania#In_the_Lithuanian_Army (which Marcelus wants removed) to stay in the article. That is because the section, which details how the Lithuanian coat of arms was used by civilian ministries and military units (including pictures of that), is relevant to the article.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 14:47, 9 February 2023 (UTC) First statement by moderator (Lithuania)One editor has joined us, and has not said that they have read the rules and that they will comply with them. I assume that they will, but I would like all the editors to say that they agree to moderated discussion and that they will comply with the rules. It appears that the main issue is that various editors think that various parts of the article are undue or off-topic. So I am asking each editor either to make a list of what they want removed from the article, in list or point-by-point style, or to make a brief statement that they want to remove a lot of content, with a brief explanation. If there is anything in particular that you want kept that another editor wants removed, please state what it is. I realize that some of you have already said what you want removed, and that I am asking you to repeat your statement, because I would like to have as many of the issues as possible in one place. By the way, it is important to be concise. Sometimes moderately short statements are more effective than long ones. If any of you have any issues other than wanting anything removed, please state concisely what you want. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:28, 12 February 2023 (UTC) First statements by editors (Lithuania)I already explained in my previous statements why this subsection does not require large removals. However, if it is really necessary then I would accept a two times shortened version suggested by myself (see here: User:Pofka/sandbox/CoA of Lithuania: Belarus) which keep the main content of this subsection which is inextricably related with the coat of arms of Lithuania and further explains how it is related, but some context and post 1990+ history of Belarus is removed because probably it belongs more to the National emblem of Belarus. Moreover, as I already said, maybe some content could be moved to subsection "Republic of Lithuania in the interwar period".
The relation with the coat of arms of Lithuania is also illustrated by photos accompanying the text (which Piotrus and Marcelus also request to be removed). By glancing at edit history of this article, I see that user Cukrakalnis attempted to improve this subsection and to explain the relation of the content with the coat of arms of Lithuania in a positive way (1), but his edits were reverted (2) because the discussion at article's talk page was still going. We should not pretend that the Lithuanian-Belarusian military units with Lithuanian symbolism did not exist and that Lithuanian symbolism used by them and on buildings was not repressed, removed by Poles who invaded territories where these units operated as it would be a straight-forward violation of WP:NOTCENSORED and WP:NPOV.
Marcelus (talk) 21:31, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
Second statement by moderator (Lithuania)When I said that the editors should be concise, I meant that the editors should be concise. Sometimes overly long statement have little effect except to give the poster a false sense of confidence that they have explained their case. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:23, 18 February 2023 (UTC) One of the statements is too long. If they want to try again, they may try again. One editor has made a concise statement listing parts of the article that he says are too long and should be trimmed. Will the other editor please state clearly how much they agree to? I will try to explain why it is in the interests of an editor to be concise. If lengthy posts have not yet convinced other editors, and if lengthy posts have not persuaded the moderator to rule in your favor (and I don't make rulings), then we may have to publish an RFC. An RFC should summarize what is being considered, so that editors with little knowledge of the subject will be able to express a reasonable opinion. The editors who respond to an RFC are more likely to agree with a concisely stated position that they understand than with an overly lengthy statement. So when I ask to be concise, I am not just asking because I am a lazy reader and do not want to review your long post. I am asking also because an RFC will be voted on by lazy readers who do not want to review something that is too long. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:23, 18 February 2023 (UTC) Second statements by editors (Lithuania)@Robert McClenon: My concise summarized statement (based on everything I wrote here, so if you are going to start another RFC and move users statements please use it as my evaluation of this dispute and justification why content is necessary):
Third statement by moderator (Lithuania)It appears that the major disagreement is that some editors wish to remove some of the historical information that has to do with other similar coats of arms, and others wish to retain that information. First, I will explain that one policy is being quoted that has no bearing on this dispute. That is Wikipedia is not censored. This policy is more often misunderstood than understood. The removal of information that is marginal to the topic or would be undue weight is not censorship. Censorship refers to the removal of content that is considered immoral or risqué. Read that policy again. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:06, 21 February 2023 (UTC) Does any editor either have a proposal for a compromise on the amount of background and marginal material? Does any editor have a revised view after rereading Not Censored, which is not applicable? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:06, 21 February 2023 (UTC) Third statements by editors (Lithuania)As far as I understood, the resulting conflict is a consequence of content merge after Talk:Pahonia#RFC:_Pahonia. As a result, the section about Belarus started looking rather large. In particular, some rather lengthy "backgroundish" paragraphs seemed natural in "Pahonia, but look bloated in the article on Lithuanian subject and rise the suspicion in WP:SYNTH. Assuming that the merged state stays, I suggest:
My comments following Robert McClenon's and Lokys dar Vienas's statements:
Approaching compromise:
Fourth statement by moderator (Lithuania)Pofka has created a sandbox containing a proposed draft of the Belarus section. Do other editors agree with the changes? If not, what is the disagreement? Are there any other sections that editors want rewritten? Will each editor please make a bullet-point list of sections that should be deleted? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:57, 24 February 2023 (UTC) Fourth statements by editors (Lithuania)@Robert McClenon what's the purpose of doing the same thing once again? We already said like 2 or 3 times what do we want to be changed about the article, repeating it once again doesn't make much sense.Marcelus (talk) 07:09, 24 February 2023 (UTC) Fifth statement by moderator (Lithuania)It appears that there are some changes that two editors want to make, and that one editor does not want to make. If so, we need to identify as clearly and concisely as possible what those changes are. If there are any changes that all three editors are in agreement on, please list them, and we will make them, and then decide whether further discussion is needed. Who agrees or disagrees with the proposed Belarus section? Are there any other sections for which we should create sandbox drafts? Robert McClenon (talk) 07:36, 24 February 2023 (UTC) Fifth statements by editors (Lithuania)@Robert McClenon but isn't that your role? We listed the changes we want to make in the article. I can list things that I think all three of us agree on, but I'm a party to the argument, it can only generate more discussion and controversy. And as I said in my earlier comments, Pofka's proposal is unacceptable because it contains all the shortcomings of the current version of the section, only shorter. The length of the section is secondary here. Here I addressed Pofka's proposal, removing parts that seem unnecessary to me, and adding things (underlined) that were missing. I've taken them from my original proposal to modify the section, which I proposed back on the article's talk page.Marcelus (talk) 08:04, 24 February 2023 (UTC) (For the sake of clarity I have removed the images, this does not mean that I think they should not be there 08:05, 24 February 2023 (UTC))
Sixth statement by moderator (Lithuania)I would like to be sure that I have this formulated correctly. It appears that the issue is between two sandboxes on the Belarus section. User:Pofka and User:Cukrakalnis agree that Pofka's Belarus sandbox should go into the article User:Marcelus has their own sandbox instead. Is that a complete summary of the disagreement? Robert McClenon (talk) 07:29, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Sixth statements by editors (Lithuania)It all started with Marcelus' and Piotrus claims that the disputed subsection "Belarus" is WP:UNDUEly long. However, now Marcelus stated here that "Pofka's proposal is unacceptable because it contains all the shortcomings of the current version of the section, only shorter. The length of the section is secondary here" (Marcelus' edit). Moreover, Marcelus proposed a new version of the same subsection (this) with Polish Army's repressions of the coat of arms of Lithuania (at the time used by Belarusians) and WP:NPOV statements from Encyclopedia Britannica completely removed and almost of the same length as my suggested improved current version (User:Pofka/sandbox/CoA of Lithuania: Belarus). Marcelus' suggested version is unacceptable because the current content supported with WP:RS should not be removed without a valid reason (and that Marcelus' proposal contains too much Belarus-oriented information, but this article is Lithuania-oriented).
1. This is not a complete summary of the dispute. My latest proposal is simply a direct response to Pofka's proposal and should be treated as such. 2. I would also like to ask Pofka to stop speaking on my behalf, reporting what he thinks is my position, because he is doing so incorrectly. I don't know if it's intentional, but it would be better for the dispute if he focused on the article and on articulating his own opinions and not those of others. 3. It seems to me that the thing we should resolve at this point is what is Wikipedia:Scope of this section. In my opinion, the purpose of this section is to describe coats of arms similar to the coat of arms of Lithuania, which were used on the territory of Belarus and by the Belarusian states and institutions. If we settle this, then it will be easier for us to discuss what should or what shouldn't be the content of the section itself.Marcelus (talk) 18:10, 26 February 2023 (UTC) Seventh statement by moderator (Lithuania)I will restate some of the rules. Be civil and concise. In particular, be concise. Overly long statements may make the author feel better, but they do not always clarify the issues. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion, except in the space provided for the purpose. Other than that, address your comments to the moderator. Comment on content, not contributors. It isn't necessary to tell who you disagree with; just say what you disagree with. One editor says that the disagreement is about which of two sandbox drafts to use in place of the current Belarus section. Will the other editors please either agree that that is the issue, or state in one paragraph what the other issues are, without naming names. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:01, 27 February 2023 (UTC) Seventh statements by editors (Lithuania)No, I don't agree that the disagreement is about which of two sandbox drafts to use in place of the current Belarus section. In my opinion, the main problem is WP:SCOPE of the Coat of arms of Lithuania#Belarus section.Marcelus (talk) 21:08, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
Eighth statement by moderator (Lithuania)One editor states that the issue is which of two sandbox drafts to use for the Belarus section. Another editor states that the issue is the scope of the Belarus section. Please specify what you think the scope should be, preferably by drafting a proposed section. Be Specific at DRN. If you have already drafted a section, that answers the question. Each editor may make a one-paragraph statement about what they think the scope of the Belarus section should be. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:25, 27 February 2023 (UTC) Eighth statements by editors (Lithuania)
In my opinion, the scope of this section should be a description of the coats of arms similar to the coat of arms of Lithuania, which were used on the territory of Belarus and by the Belarusian states and institutions in history and now. My proposition User:Marcelus/sandbox6 focuses on that. Of course, it can be expanded with information that falls within the scope.Marcelus (talk) 20:44, 28 February 2023 (UTC) The scope of the section on Belarus should be about the use of the Lithuanian coat of arms on the territory of modern Belarus in the timespan since Belarus first gained independence in 1918. The coat of arms, that was officially used by Lithuania but also Belarus briefly after WWI and in the early 1990s, is the same, as is written in enough WP:RS.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:19, 28 February 2023 (UTC) Ninth statement by moderator (Lithuania)Are there any other issues besides the Belarus section? There are two proposals to replace the Belarus section. One of them is longer than the other, and, although there is some commonality between them, the shorter version is not a subset, or close to being a subset, of the longer version. Does anyone have a compromise? Will each editor, regardless of whether they have developed a version of the Belarus section, please make a one-paragraph statement in support of their choice for the Belarus section. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:29, 1 March 2023 (UTC) Ninth statements by editors (Lithuania)Tenth statement by moderator (Lithuania)This discussion is becoming repetitive. To answer an editor's question, it is repetitive because I am asking for concise answers and getting long answers. However, now that we are in agreement that there are two proposed versions of the Belarus section, an RFC will be used to choose between them. The RFC will be developed within 24 hours. Each editor may make a one-paragraph statement supporting their choice of the Belarus section. Robert McClenon (talk) 10:12, 1 March 2023 (UTC) Tenth statements by editors (Lithuania)Eleventh statement by moderator (Lithuania)A draft of the RFC is available for inspection at Talk:Coat of arms of Lithuania/Belarus RFC. If there are no questions about the RFC, it will be moved from the subpage to the article talk page, and will be made into a live RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 11:54, 1 March 2023 (UTC) Eleventh statements by editors (Lithuania)I would just like to point out that the title of the parent section of the disputed section was changed during the dispute. This changed the scope of the disputed section and distorted the perception of the ongoing discussion.Marcelus (talk) 19:32, 1 March 2023 (UTC) As the user who did the edit explained, the section was renamed to more correctly reflect its content (which goes beyond the section of Belarus). There is nothing wrong with that. --Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:40, 1 March 2023 (UTC) Twelfth statement by moderator (Lithuania)I have launched the RFC to decide between the different proposals for the section. Are there any other issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:25, 1 March 2023 (UTC) Twelfth statements by editors (Lithuania)No issue, I'm just working still on references in my proposals, I hope that's ok. Back-and-forth discussion (Lithuania)@Pofka Can you answer clearly what you think the scope section should be? I don't know where you get the impression that focusing on Belarus in any way ignores the fact that Belarus was part of the GDL. You have to take into account that this section functions as part of the article. I don't know what you mean by We need to establish one thing to go further. The national symbol of Belarus established in 1918 is derived from the Lithuanian coat of arms, used in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, but is by no means identical to it. Since 1918, there are two separate national coats of arms: Lithuanian and Belarusian. Do you agree with this statement or not? If not, why not? Marcelus (talk) 20:56, 28 February 2023 (UTC) @Cukrakalnis can you cite a source that claims Belarus used the Lithuanian coat of arms and not its own, which was derived from it (from the GDL coat of arms)?Marcelus (talk) 22:25, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
References
@Marcelus: This section with its subsections focuses on the usage of the coat of arms of Lithuania in other countries (e.g. in Poland, Belarus, Germany, France, etc.) and similar coats of arms (Ukrainian, Belarusian, etc.). I already explained multiple times that your suggested version (User:Marcelus/sandbox6) is unacceptable because it is poorly referenced and without valid reasons it requires to completely rewrite the entire subsection "Belarus" and to remove easily WP:VERIFIABLE online WP:RS (e.g. Britannica), facts about Belarusians usage of the coat of arms of Lithuania (it does not even mention facts that the Belarusians used the coat of arms of Lithuania for over 500 years as they had no own national symbols, per Britannica) and Polish interwar repressions of the coat of arms of Lithuania in Belarus, etc. I also already explained that since 1918 the Belarusians in Belarus used the coat of arms of Lithuania as well (e.g. 1st Belarusian Regiment, Lithuanian Ministry for Belarusian Affairs, Grodno Military Command) and national emblem of Belarus (officialy they do not use any horse rider now), so in this subsection we must cover three periods: 1) 13th century - 1795; 2) interwar period (since 1918); 3) 1990+. Moderator already requested to explain what content you want removed and why (e.g. you still haven't provided valid arguments why WP:NPOV Britannica and facts based on it should be censored but you keep "Belarusian nationalists..." in your newly rewritten version of the subsection). -- Pofka (talk) 22:29, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
I will restore the previous name at this point, we can discuss changing it and change it after the dispute is over. Marcelus (talk) 23:17, 28 February 2023 (UTC)
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Springbar
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
![]() | Closed as wrong forum. DRN is for article content disputes, and does not consider disputes either that are pending in another forum, or that should be considered in another forum. This case is about acceptance of a draft. Editors who have submitted drafts that have been declined may ask for advice at the Articles for Creation Help Desk or the Teahouse. I think that advice at the Teahouse is more likely to be helpful. So the filing editor should ask for advice at the Teahouse.
I have a few comments. First, I concur with the reviewers User:AngusWOOF and User:Greenman in declining the draft. (It was declined, not rejected. The difference is that the author may revise and resubmit a declined draft, as they did.) It still contains promotional language. Second, the advice that you get may not be quite as specific or concrete as you would like, because the volunteer editors are not here to rewrite an article for you at your request, but they are helpful. So: Ask for advice at the Teahouse. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:49, 3 March 2023 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I would like to know if/what specifically needs to be addressed with the article in order to get it approved — concrete examples. Right now, I have no path forward. OR, I would like another editor (or multiple editors) to review the article to provide their opinion as to whether it is promotional. Thank you! Summary of dispute by GreenmanPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by AngusWOOFPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Here's the version I evaluated: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Springbar&oldid=1134234498 My emphasis below. "Renowned for its style, durability and comfort, the Springbar canvas tent helped revolutionize the camping industry and has become known as an icon of outdoor style and design" The next year, AAA Tent & Awning began selling Springbar canvas tents through its catalog under its Skyliner brand. The tent was popular among customers looking for a tent that was spacious, strong and easy to pitch. Kirkham Sr. continued to refine the design over the years From this design, he continued to innovate, creating versions of varying sizes and features — from a two-person tent to a large modular tent called the Leisure Port, which campers could add rooms onto as needed The Springbar design quickly caught the eye of other outdoor brands. Jack Kirkham Sr. passed away in 2008 at the age of 90, leaving behind a thriving legacy, having made his mark on the outdoor industry. His simple, spacious canvas tent design helped make camping accessible for more people at a time when interest in outdoor recreation was just beginning to grow Known for their spacious, simple and stylish design, as well as their superior quality and lifetime guarantee, Springbar canvas tents revolutionized the camping industry, making camping more accessible and appealing to the masses. Since their introduction in 1961, Springbar canvas tents have become an icon in the outdoor industry. Springbar canvas tents are supported by Kirkham Sr.’s simple frame design, which combines flexibility and tension to create a structure that is spacious, strong, quick and easy to pitch and capable of withstanding strong winds and rain.
Springbar discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Simple function
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![]() | Closed indecisively. One editor, who is a mathematician, says that the subject of countably valued functions is obvious, and does not require mention in the encyclopedia. Another editor, who is a mathematician, says that countably valued functions are an important concept, in particular with regard to stopping times, but is no longer interested in discussing. I don't think that they are obvious, but I am not a mathematician, and articles in Wikipedia on mathematics are not written only for other mathematicians. If countably valued functions are an important concept that is distinct from simple functions although a generalization of simple functions, they can write a properly sourced article, which may be a stub or a longer article, on countably valued functions. If such an article is written, anyone who thinks that the concept is obvious and non-encyclopedic can nominate it for deletion, and the community (or a subset thereof) can decide whether an article is in order. |
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Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview The section "Countably valued functions" is obvious in nature and should not have been added, per WP:ONUS. This section adds nothing of substance and only clutters up the article. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Simple_function#Countably valued functions - why? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I am seeking independent opinions. Summary of dispute by StrokeOfMidnightPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by TensorproductPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Simple function discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by moderator (Simple function)It is not clear to me what if anything the article content dispute is about. The filing party says that the countably valued functions section is obvious in nature. Obvious to whom? Nothing in the article is obvious to me, which suggests that the filing party may be assuming that the reader already has to know particular areas of higher mathematics. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC) It is also not clear to me what if anything the editors want here. So I will ask the editors first to read the usual rules, and then to make a brief statement. Please state what if anything should be improved in the article, and how you think that discussion here can improve the article. Also, please explain, to a computer scientist, exactly what is a simple function. Is it defined by the fact that it can only have a finite number of values? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Statement one-half by moderator (Simple function)If any editor thinks that there is a content issue about this article for which moderated discussion is requested, please state concisely what the issue is. Otherwise I will close this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:07, 27 February 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Simple function)In the Talk:Simple_function discussion on February 23, Tensorproduct conceded the point, so if there are no other objections, the issue is settled. StrokeOfMidnight (talk) 03:02, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
First statement by moderator (Simple function)The relationship of countably valued functions to simple functions may be obvious to some mathematicians. Wikipedia is not written only for experts in fields. Mathematicians can review their knowledge of simple functions and countably valued functions from textbooks. Wikipedia is also written for educated non-specialists. The relationship of countably valued functions to simple functions is not obvious to a computer scientist, and, besides, computer scientists know that when a mathematician says "It is therefore obvious", it may mean that the remainder of the proof is lengthy and tedious, and the author doesn't want to reconstruct it. User:Tensorproduct did not concede that it was obvious. He agreed not to argue in favor of restoration of the section because User:StrokeOfMidnight had stonewalled. I will only close this case as resolved if it is resolved. Otherwise, if I close it due to no discussion, I will close it as failed. I am neutral on content except occasionally. I am not neutral about stonewalling. And I am not neutral about claims that something in college-level mathematics is obvious. If any editor thinks that there is a content issue for which moderated discussion is in order, please state what the issue is. If there are no answers, I will close this case as failed, because of apparent stonewalling. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:14, 1 March 2023 (UTC) First statements by editors (Simple function)Second statement by moderator (Simple function)Please read or reread the usual rules. Will each editor please state briefly, first, whether you want to take part in moderated discussion, and, second, what any article content issues are. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:32, 2 March 2023 (UTC) Second statements by editors (Simple function)Moderated discussions are welcome, and I will participate in one. The contentious issue has to do with so-called countably valued functions. I believe that these functions lack notability and should not be defined in the article. Even if they were notable, defining them would be superfluous since the reader would know what a c.v.f. is by, simply, reading the term: a c.v.f. is one whose values form a countable set. StrokeOfMidnight (talk) 02:35, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
Third Statement by Moderator (Simple functions)I forgot to specify in the rules that there is to be no discussion on user talk pages. Discussion should be on this noticeboard. The issue appears to be whether there should be a section on Countably Valued Functions. I see three possible answers. First, we can include them in the article on simple functions, as is being asked by one editor. Second, we can instead have a separate article on countably valued functions, which are a related topic, but not the same topic. Third, we can say nothing about them, because one editor says that their meaning is obvious. It may be obvious to a mathematician, but it is not obvious to a computer scientist, engineer, or other person for whom mathematics is an essential tool. Please make a one-paragraph statement explaining your position on the documenting of countably valued functions. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:51, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
Third Statements by Editors (Simple functions)Countably-valued function is a self-explanatory term that lacks notability and should not be covered on Wikipedia. StrokeOfMidnight (talk) 22:15, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
Back-and-forth discussion (Simple function)
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