Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Finnish Civil War

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Finnish Civil War[edit]

This has undergone two peer reviews, two A-class review and a good article review. All things have been fixed and now I believe it meets the standards. In short, neutral article of a very emotional subject, well referenced and the writers have been able to make a comprehensive article of a subject which isn't that well known.

  • Nomination and Support --Pudeo (Talk) 15:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment:
    • The lead is too long even for a very big article.
    • The inline citations should have page numbers for verifiability purposes.
  • Other than that, a nice article, but the ref thing is quite severe IMHO. -- Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 16:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, however according to WP:LEAD#Length though, 4 paragrahps are generally accepted for >30,000 mark articles. If not, I'm sure the second paragraph can be removed and/or shortened to third. And the page numbers citations, of course is was noted before but not added due with that book and note amount it would require some sitting in the library. It could be though of couse started from few books.. I don't think the citations are supposed to deal with straight "quotation", but rather to show from which book the information was written from; as WP:CITE#Page_numbers says; "When citing books and articles, provide page numbers where appropriate. Page numbers must be included in a citation that accompanies a specific quotation from, or a paraphrase or reference to, a specific passage of a book or article.". --Pudeo (Talk) 16:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Per Grafikm about the citations. The MoS may say that, but here we speak about a FA and in a FA every source must be absolutely verifiable. Let's say a reviewer has the books you mention and wants to verify your assessment. Ok? How is he going to do that, if you don't provide page numbers? By browsing the whole book? The article is obviously very very well-researched, but I don't think it should be promoted to FA status, until page numbers are provided.--Yannismarou 18:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support - Concerning the citations, I would agree that the page numbers would make the article more easily verifiable, but the fact that the article extensively cites solid, reliable print sources makes this article far better than many FAs. It satisfies the FA "factually accurate" or citation criteria 1c, full stop. But rather than concentrating on the quality of the citations, one should look at the quality as well as topic of the article. It is comprehensive, but more importantly, it covers a subject that is important in the world view but difficult to find in an English encyclopaedia. Having seen, IMHO, fancruft articles that are getting recognised because they at least give page-numbers in their citations, I feel that not giving FA for this quality article is a true injustice. --RelHistBuff 17:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with your comments about the printed sources. It is something I repeat all the time. But, for my part, I still believe that we should not apply double standards in different FACs. I have seen this request for page numbers repeated by many reviewers in many FACs, and all of these times the problem was fixed and page numbers were provided. And as you can see I did not object, I just commented. If I wanted "not to give FA" to this article and if I did not recognize its quality, I would have objected. I just say that I cannot support an article with no page numbers in more than 50 inline citations! Is it so difficult the page numbers to be added?! I remember myself in university that whenever I had references in any kind of essays I had written, I always had to put pages! Otherwise, my references were not accepted! For me, the criterion of verifiability is not fully satisfied, because, when I have references citing books without pages, I don't know where to search in order to verify an assessment, full stop!--Yannismarou 21:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • What are the references here, exactly? If they're journal articles, they may be acceptable without page numbers; but longer works (e.g. actual books) really do need something more specific than a title to be useful as citations. Kirill Lokshin 02:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Correct, they are full books by the most respected historians. However, I don't really have time to get all these books as I never even had them. However, the person who worked on them, Illumeen, said that he also has no time work on them until after the Christmas, if he even then has interests. After christmas due to as some of the books have to be ordered again to the library. If the page numbers is so heavy issue, we should forget this FAC for the time being. The formal level of the article is not top priority. --Pudeo (Talk) 17:43, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Can't you indicate chapters or something similar?--Yannismarou 18:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, I had all the books at home during autumn 2005 and made carefull content notes of the ones that had to be ordered further away and paid for. Unfortunately, I did not mark page numbers. For this English Wiki-article some of the most important books should be ordered and paid again in the library. I'm not very motivated to do that just for checking page numbers. I understand the criteria of Wikip. very well, and thus it's seems best to keep the FCW-art. at the Good Article level. The main thing still is that now we have an article a bit like a "proper mature red wine" :). --Ilummeen 16:03, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I know, I am going against a rather strong current, but anyway, here goes... ;) For anyone who has not voted or commented yet, please take a look at this article with its 50 inline citations to history books and then please take a look at the all the Featured Articles in the Media section of WP:FA where nearly all citations are to websites. Then ask yourself whether FCW should be a featured article. --RelHistBuff 08:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support From my experience, this kind of litterature rarely mentions page numbers in references either. I agree though that page numbers could be useful if the text would be expected to be used in future research. MoRsE 11:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Fixes per requests The lead has been shortened and some page numbers added. Please wait a moment, they are being worked on. --Pudeo (Talk) 17:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The citations are much improved, but, until all the citations are properly referencd with page numbers, I can only offer my weak support.--Yannismarou 19:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Every note has a page number at the moment. In some notes, where several books are used, there may not be page numbers on all of them. However, they could be as well removed and then it would be OK? In some cases they have "duplicate" information, but I believe atleast some of them have relevant information that they are needed. So I don't think they should be removed just for the sake of this, but then again, is this so bureaucratic that it wouldn't be approved now? Still some will be added, but when the "duplicate" books' notes will be needed, the books that Illumeen doesn't have, it will halt. In my opinion, if not earlier, now it's very fine already with the cits. --Pudeo (Talk) 15:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OK! Full support and congratulations for your efforts!--Yannismarou 20:04, 25 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Very nice article.--Rudjek 20:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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