Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Iron Man/archive1
Iron Man[edit]
Iron Man (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
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- Nominator(s): Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
When engineering genius Tony Stark was kidnapped and forced to build a weapon, he turned the tables on his kidnappers by designing a powered suit of armor and fighting his way out. With this new armor, he pledged to fight evil as the superhero Iron Man! First created by Marvel Comics in 1963, Iron Man has since become one of the company's most popular characters, in no small part because of his central role in Marvel's films. In the 60 years since Iron Man was first created, the character has appeared in countless comic book stories and other media, commenting on issues like Cold War politics, alcoholism, and technological progress.
There's little precedent for comic book superheroes as featured articles. The topic area is rife with articles that depend on primary sources and go into excessive detail, both things that I had to address when I began working on this article. I've cleaned out the comic book citations entirely, replacing them with analytic, scholarly sources, supplemented by reviews, news articles, and character handbooks to fill in the details. I'm hoping that by refining this article to FA standards, it will create such a precedent for other articles in the comic book topic area. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:50, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Image review from Nikkimaria[edit]
- Suggest adding alt text
- File:Iron_Man_(circa_2018).png needs a more expansive FUR. Ditto File:Tales_of_Suspense_39.jpg, File:Iron_Man's_armors.jpg
- File:TalesOfSuspense48.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Alt text added, source link replaced, and non-free use rationale improved for File:Iron_Man_(circa_2018).png. I don't see any missing non-free use information for File:Tales_of_Suspense_39.jpg or File:Iron_Man's_armors.jpg. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 04:59, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, the more non-free content is included, the stronger the rationale required for each. These rationales have no empty fields, but they are also not strong enough to justify having so much non-free media. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:10, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Drive-by comments from BOZ[edit]
- Comment: "I'm hoping that by refining this article to FA standards, it will create such a precedent for other articles in the comic book topic area.". I hope so too. :) There are a great many comic book characters, superheroes having dominated the field for most of the media's existence, that have this kind of potential; right now at GA we currently have Captain America, Joker (character), Norman Osborn, and Spider-Man which have the most potential for FA, and several others that are GA but may not be suitable for FA, and easily dozens of other characters that could be GA or better if someone could find the time and energy to find the sources and basically rewrite them from scratch. Batman and Superman are former FA articles, so it would be nice to see a comics character back up there. BOZ (talk) 06:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
Comments by ZKang123[edit]
I thought the film was being reviewed. That said, I shall review this article to the best of my ability.
No problems with the lead I can find.
Creation and premiere:
- "superhero comic books" – would it make a difference to just say "superhero comics"? Just want to make it more general, succinct and referring to the genre.
- "designing an unlikeable character and making him likeable." – suggest changing the connector "and" to "while"
- "Lee described the national mood toward Vietnam in which Iron Man was created as" – This chunk is worded rather weirdly. Would suggest "Lee described the national mood toward Vietnam at the time "when..." "
- "Heck continued as the primary Iron Man artist until 1965, as Kirby had obligations to other Marvel properties." – "Until 1965, Heck continued as the primary Iron Man artist, as Kirby had obligations to other Marvel properties." I find the initial wording a little confusing as it seems the reasoning was due to his tenure until 1965, and not exactly Heck's tenure itself.
More to come.--ZKang123 (talk) 02:13, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
- Hi ZKang123, just checking if further comments are on their way? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:17, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Support from Aoba47[edit]
Resolved comments from Aoba47
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I hope these comments are helpful. Once everything has been addressed, I will do a more thorough read-through of the article. Best of luck with the FAC. Aoba47 (talk) 16:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
Here are some additional comments. I hope they are helpful. I will look through the article again later today. Thank you for your patience. I just want to make sure I look through the article as thoroughly as possible. Aoba47 (talk) 01:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
I believe this should be the end of my review. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 15:04, 7 April 2024 (UTC) |
- Aoba47 I've replied to all of the above comments. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:42, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for addressing everything. I support this FAC for promotion. I hope this review is helpful. I do have one quick additional comment. I would link Marvel Comics, superhero, and American comic books the first time that they are used in the article to be consistent with how they are linked in the lead. It is not a major point though so it does not hold up my support. Aoba47 (talk) 15:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
- TBUA ? Gog the Mild (talk) 19:17, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Support from Igordebraga[edit]
- Support Impressive work. Considering the only comic book character FA is Anarky, is good to see one that is worth a promotion. igordebraga ≠ 18:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Igordebraga, just to clarify, you didn't see any details or any aspect that might need to be changed to best meet the featured article criteria? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:51, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Reading it extensively, could only find one issue, and it's less about the FA criteria than article consistency: the character biography ends on Infamous Iron Man, but the publication history above mentions the series that followed that. I understand that it's because it was the latest story on the ref (Marvel Encyclopedia), yet it still makes that section incomplete. If a reliable source summing up at least Tony Stark: Iron Man could be found, it would be very helpful. igordebraga ≠ 04:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Igordebraga, just to clarify, you didn't see any details or any aspect that might need to be changed to best meet the featured article criteria? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:51, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Support from PMC[edit]
Resolved comments from PMC
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Putting myself down here. If I don't get to it within a week, feel free to give me the gears. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:44, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
Okay, that's all I have for now. For the most part, the article is really well-written, and there are plenty of places I had little-to-nothing to criticize. My biggest thing is the organization of the Personality section, but as I said above, given the complexity involved, I'm open to discussion. Take your time responding. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:18, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
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- Premeditated Chaos, I think that should be everything. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 07:02, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Thebiguglyalien, thanks for your patience waiting for me to respond. I've reviewed the changes and have basically no outstanding concerns. The personality section in particular reads really smoothly now. The one thing is the Justin Hammer sentence fragment, which I've left a comment under, but it's small and I assume you'll fix it shortly, so I'm a support. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 03:26, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
Oppose by David Fuchs[edit]
Recusing to review, comments will be here shortly. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:47, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- David ? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:00, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
Switching to oppose after a review. I think the article's a very good start, but I have issues throughout:
- The prose just isn't there for me. It's often weirdly structured in ways that make it unclear what the text is trying to say, or is just unnecessarily wordy. Some examples: "Ditko was responsible for only three issues in late 1963, but in this time he had Iron Man's suit redesigned with the red and gold color scheme that became the character's primary image" — "had" shows up constantly in this article for no reason, and here it makes it sound like Ditko got someone else to redesign the suit as opposed to being the primary illustrator and theoretically the one actually doing it? Likewise "Michelinie and Layton replaced many elements that had developed in the series" makes it sound like elements just developed out of the aether and weren't conscious choices. There's a lot of passive voice that doesn't seem necessary, e.g. "and the design was modified by Heck to incorporate gadgets such as jets, drills, and suction cups", or just minor extra fluff like "he seeks out all
ofthe other armors", "Iron Manhas himself injectedinjects himself with the Extremis virus"- A lot of this feels like a difference in style preferences, but I've done a few passes of copyediting on the article to remove words. I think a lot of the "had" and similar words help with the flow, but I see where you're coming from. I'm also of the opinion that passive voice isn't as much of an issue as it's sometimes made out to be, but that should be fixed. One minor point, "Iron Man injects himself with the Extremis virus" would be incorrect. He had himself injected, and I reworded so it's clearer.
- There's some flow issues in the publication history; we get a "creation and premiere" section that goes to 1964, but then we get a heading that says "late 1960s" and doesn't say when The Avengers was started, which adds to the confusion because 1963 ain't the late 1960s, and neither is 1965 by my reckoning. "Growing opposition to the war" and the rest likewise don't have any real temporal signposts. The 1970s section starts with "Over the years, the letters to the editor column in several issues saw extensive political debate" but there's no elaboration. The next sentence is about creative turnover and it doesn't return to the idea of fans debating politics in the issues. A lot of the content in the personality section either is duplicative of content in the publication history, or else feels like it's best put there. Likewise content in the themes and motifs feels like it often should be introduced earlier. ("The armor was gray in its first appearance, but Iron Man gave it gold plating in the subsequent issue"... this is already briefly covered in less detail earlier, but it feels like it belongs there more, and also "Iron Man gave it gold plating" makes no sense.) Ditto the cultural legacy section, the first couple sentences is again just saying the same thing we've heard two times before in brief about the military associations.
- I've rearranged 1960s info to put it in chronological order. This is definitely something I should have caught before nominating. I've moved up some of the info from personality and themes and integrated it into the publication history. I have regrets about some of that info not being covered in their respective sections, but it works better in regard to organization. I believe that a couple sentences about the military connections are appropriate for the reception section, as that's really the core of his early reception.
- The fictional character biography lurches from past to present tense; I can understand using past tense for the character background, but going from "This prosthesis is hacked and controlled remotely, causing neurological damage that appears for a time to kill him" (present) to "Rhodes temporarily became Stark's chosen successor as Iron Man." (Past) to "After returning, Stark falls under the control of Immortus, turning him evil. " in three sentences just reads badly.
- I fixed up the tense in this section, but three changes of tense in three sentences is just another way of saying that there was one sentence with the wrong tense.
- Why are story arcs italicized in the article when the pages they link to (e.g. "Demon in a Bottle") use quotes?
- Good catch, fixed.
- I think the powers/allies/villains stuff is generally too long and should be trimmed. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 14:15, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- There's no powers section, but I believe that the allies and villains sections are an appropriate length. One review above expressed regret that it was as condensed as it was for length reasons.
- David Fuchs I've replied to each point above. I'm not going to ask you to get into a WP:FIXLOOP if you still think there are structural issues, but I've incorporated some of your suggestions and tried to justify some others. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:03, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think the publication history is much better. I disagree on the length of the fictional, in-universe elements; when the entirety of the cultural impact and legacy can apparently be summed up in two paragraphs, I think it's a little over the top that we need five times the amount of prose to cover supporting characters or villains. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 21:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Panagiotis Zois[edit]
Wonderful work on this article. Given than Anarky is the only comics character article that's FA, it will be great to see this get elevated to the same status. You've done a great job with it; to the point I'm tempted to actually start reading Iron Man titles. My comments will come soon. PanagiotisZois (talk) 00:00, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Lede
- According to the first paragraph, Tony was created by the four men mentioned. However, the infobox also includes Ditko. Is that a mistake?
- I think it'd be better if regarding his first appearance, it also specifies the date, rather than just 1963; at least include the month. More importantly, the article specifies that although the issue is cover date March 1963, it was actually published in December 1962.
- Same goes for his first eponymous series.
- Taking the "Creation and premiere" section into account, a brief summary or the character's background should be included in the first paragraph. That he was created during the Vietnam was an Lee intentionally wanted to make a superhero whose involvement in it readers would find repugnant, yet still cheer for him; maybe adding that Hughes and Flynn served as inspiration.
- Regarding "Iron Man was a founding member of a superhero team", I think it'd be better to replace "was" with "became" and "a" with "the".
- Concerning the second sentence in paragraph #2, given that it recounts his origin story, it should be in the past tense.
- The last two sentences are slightly confusing. I think it'd be better to rewrite them as "Since his creation, the character has been used to explore political themes, with early Iron Man stories being set in the Cold War". It's just that the way it is currently written, it makes it sound like Iron Man was used to explore political themes, but not any more. I guess one could argue that it was only during the 60s that Tony was used to explore "political" themes specifically, and that other non-political themes were then explored with him after a certain point. But thing like "civil unrest" or especially "governmental authority", even "corporate espionage", are all pretty political. Is the implication that initially only political themes relating to just the Cold War were used, and it was only later that Iron Man became about more than just the Cold War?
- Where it says "later stories explored other themese", should it specify exactly when this other stories started?
- The final section doesn't mention much regarding the character's reception outside of the MCU's influence. Taking the "Cultural impact and legacy" into account, it could briefly refer to the first paragraph of that section, and then go into talking about the MCU; which also shows the impact the MCU version had on the character.
;Creation and premiere
- Link "anti-war" to anti-war movement.
The sections seems to need a bit of a rewrite. In the first paragraph, you provide information that Stan Lee is the one who came up with the concept, and some of the background regarding Iron's Man's creation; great.- But then, in the second paragraph, you jump ahead into how the comic where Tony first appeared in, Tales of Suspense, started having the character on each cover. Only to then bring up his first appearance in #39. Is Tony appearing on the cover of each issue something that happened before or after he first showed up in #39?
- Then, after the second par ends with you talking about how, starting with 1963, Tales of Suspense featured only Iron Man/Captain America stories, you jump back to talking about his creation and how the character was conceived and designed.
From my understanding, Iron Man first showed up in Tales of Suspense (TOS) in 1962, then founded the Avengers in 64, and was the star of TOS alongside Captain America. Overall, most of the sentences are well written, but the last two paragraphs need to be somewhat restructured. Having everything from "Larry Lieber developed Iron Man's origin" to "and suction cups" act as the second paragraph, since it's all tied to Iron Man's creation / origin. That his armor was initially gray and then red-gold also relates to that and should be present there. Then you can discuss that Tales of Suspense started as a horror title, before focusing on superheroes, then add that Heck continued as the main artist due to Kirby leaving, and that Lee took over writing duties, that Tony was featured on each cover, and that he and Cap became the main stars of it.
- PanagiotisZois, checking in. Did you intend to leave more comments? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 01:28, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- TBUA ? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:02, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Thebiguglyalien: Hello. Yes, now that you've done some work on Tony's creation, I'll look over that section and the later ones. PanagiotisZois (talk) 09:56, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
@Thebiguglyalien: Comments will come soon. I'll restart everything, so ignore what I've previously written. PanagiotisZois (talk) 13:05, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
- Creation
- First sentence should have a reference at the end, even if it's the same as the one from the next sentence.
- Same for "introduced as an active player in the Vietnam War."
- Link "anti-war" to anti-war movement.
- For the last sentence, slightly rework it along the lines of "Vietnam during the period in which Iron Man was created", to specify that Lee was talking about the specific time period.
- Link Howard Hughes.
- I'd move the part that Lee "wanted to create a modernized Arthurian knight" after the next sentence. That way, you have two sentences talking about Flynn and Hughes acting as inspirations for Tony's character and physical appearance, and then bring up his armor.
- Early years
- Maybe I'm overthinking things, but the second and third paaragraphs should be switched. That way, you have two paragraphs talking about his appearances in Tales of Suspense, and then get into The Avengers.
- Alright, first paragraph:
- Link comics anthology.
- Write Ditko's full name and link it.
- Then in para 3 write just "Ditko".
- Also, as Ditko wasn't involved with the character's creation, even if it was his idea to turn the suit from gray to red-gold, his name shouldn't be in the infobox.
- "Lee briefly delegated the writing [duties]".
- Also, when exactly did Lee delegate writing duties to others only to then reclaim them? The year should be listed.
- I'm curious, Tony's first appearance was in Tales of Suspense #39 in December 1962, where his armor was gray. Did he make any further appearances with that gray armor, or did he get the gold-red one as early as his second appearance? Or was it changed from gray to gold and then from gold to gold-red? Sorry for being anal, and maybe I'm overanalyzing things, but they are slightly confusing.
- When you say that "Heck continued as the primary Iron Man artist until 1965", I'm guessing you're talking about his appearances in Tales of Suspense and not The Avengers, right?
- Also, if Iron Man didn't receive his own comic until 1968, then the next sentence probably needs some reworking. You write that Ditko "became the artist for Iron Man", written in italics, which would suggest Tony already had his own comic.
- "Iron Man's recurring nemesis, the Mandarin, first appeared shortly after in Tales of Suspense #50 (1964)". If the previous sentence mentions that Heck wasn't replaced by Kirby until 1965, then how could the Mandarin's appearance in 1964 be viewed as "shortly after"?
- For paragraph 4, the last two sentences can be merged, especially if they have the same source.
- Also, "incorporating Marvel's fictional intelligence agency S.H.I.E.L.D." lacks a source.
- "Lee rewrote some of Iron Man's communist villains with personal motivations independent of their communist allegiances". I'm guessing this mean Lee rewrote some of the villain "to have personal motivations that were independent of their communist allegiances"?
- Also, "incorporating Marvel's fictional intelligence agency S.H.I.E.L.D." lacks a source.
- Add comma between "environmentalism rather".
- 1970s
- "assigned Gerry Conway as the writer for Iron Man". Given that Tony had his own title by this point, it should be italicized.
- "first of several authors". Usually, for comics it would be writer.
- "reform Iron Man beginning in 1971". Either add a comma after Iron Man, or alter it to "that began in".
- Does the source state when Mike Friedrich's run occurred?
- Do the sources state when Mantlo took over; as in, which issue?
- "series beginning; add a comma.
- When you mention Layton using certain magazines as references, then you state that "and they stayed informed". I'd reword it to "with him and Michelinie staying"
- "they removed Iron Man's romantic interest". Who was that?
- Also, you don't need to repeat "removed" twice. Something like "they removed Iron Man's romantic interest (her name) and his robotic Life Model Decoy doubles, and they had Tony move to a different home".
- 1980s and 1990s
- "writers for Iron Man focused on Iron Man as a businessman". Repetition.
- Given that Tony has quite a few relatives with the same last name that show up, and his company is Stark Industries, wouldn't it make more sense, when using his civilian identity, to his his given name instead of his surname? Especially since we're talking about a fictional character and not a real person.
- "beginning in issue" to "beginning with issue".
- "which Justin Hammer distributed to several villains". Did Hammer distribute Iron Man's technology during the story arc, or had he already done so and this is what started the arc?
- "and again they" to "and they again"
- Minor thing, but I'd suggest "highly regarded" as "highly-regarded".
- "comic book writers at the time." lack a reference.
- "which was already announced" => "which had already been" or "which had previously been".
- "communism and the Vietnam War" lacks a reference.
- "American democracy for its own sake" lacks a reference.
- "anti-communist" should be linked. It's linked further down in his biography.
- Regarding the the Tiannamen Square Massacre, add the year it occurred in.
- Concerning "absence of Cold War politics", it be beneficial to add when it ended.
- "often visited different". Is visited the proper word? Seems like "explored" would make a better fit.
- "profit-sharing agreement." lacks a reference
- Same for "during the "Onslaught" event."
- 2000s
- Shouldn't Ultimates link to The Ultimates (comic book)? Also, unless "The Avengers" refers to the comic book - in which case it should be italicized - then the definite article should be lowercase.
- Same with the New Avengers.
- As Avengers Disassembled was an event, it should have quotation marks, not be italicized.
- Same with "Civil War".
- I'd recommend putting "following the September 11 attacks" at the beginning of the sentence, have a comma, and then the rest.
- "Adi Granov as the artist" needs a reference
- Concerning "In an allegory for the Patriot Act and government surveillance ... opposition to government surveillance", does "conservative" and "liberal" refer to the political ideologies of America? As in, conservatives / Republicans supported the Patriot Act, whereas liberals / Democrats oppossed it? Or is the reference to conservative support and liberal opposition to government in an abstract sense?
- "this era of Iron Man's character" would probably reflect its intent better if written as "and in this era, Iron Man's character leaned".
- 2010s and 2020s
- "This volume was written by Kieron Gillen" doesn't need to be a separate sentence from the previous one.
- "Axis" should have quotation marks.
- "featuring Iron Man with a new reversed personality" probably requires and explanation. I know a few details about the event including a spell that inverted heroes' personalities and made them amoral, but new readers going through this won't know all that.
- Given adjective order, Ironheart should be described as a "teenaged African-American girl"; but it's somewhat minor, so if you prefer it like this, leave it as such.
- "following the "Iron Man 2020" event" lacks a reference.
- "deviations [made to Tony]'s character".
- Also, when it says previous series, is it referring only to its immediate predecessor, Infamous Iron Man, all of the previous Iron Man titles from the 2010s?