Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Joy Division

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 18:49, 31 December 2007.

Joy Division[edit]

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Co-nomination I've been working on this article about the legendary post-punk group Joy Division with User:Ceoil since summer. We were hoping to have it featured by October (to coincide with the release of the film Control), but we were slowed down by other obligations. But here we are now after extensive research and a peer review. I look forward to feedback, and will try to address comments quickly. Thanks. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:48, 23 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. Great article, just a few wrinkles that need ironing out:
    • The quote in the lead seems pretty arbitrary and isn't talked about. You may want to segue in by stating "Joy Divison are not considered punk, and were, according to..." Something along those lines would be fine.
It seemed like a good quote to indicate that Joy Division were a break with punk, and helped set up the post-punk movement. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:52, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree and it should stay. The only suggestion I have about it is to possibly segue in. Currently it's arbitrary in the lead and is not explained. NSR77 TC 21:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Despite the band's burgeoning success, Ian Curtis was troubled by his crumbling marriage and his diagnosis of epilepsy, which made it increasingly difficult for the singer to perform live."; change to "Despite the band's burgeoning success, Ian Curtis was troubled by his crumbling marriage, and after being diagnosed with epilepsy he found it increasingly difficult to perform live."
Fixed. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "In April 1979, the band began recording their debut album Unknown Pleasures at Strawberry Studios in Stockport." Stockport should be wikilinked.
Fixed. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "While the tour was difficult, Curtis only experienced two grand mal seizures in the two months preceding the tour's final date." Difficult in what way? The way the sentence is structured makes it ambiguous.
Deborah Curtis says some of the shows weren't all that great, and begins the sentence, "In spite of all the turmoil . . ." WesleyDodds (talk) 03:02, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Artists including electronica performer Moby and Red Hot Chili Peppers guitarist John Frusciante have noted their appreciation for Joy Division's music, and its influence on their own." Falls apart at the end. Suggested rewording: "...have noted their appreciation for Joy Division's music and the influence it has had on their own material." NSR77 TC 02:55, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:52, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Remarkably well written. I've just now read over it and have no comments for improvement. Good job to WesleyDodds and Ceoil! --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 05:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment

  • Need "Moscow" be mentioned in the lead, let alone be in bold?
You mean "Warsaw"? It's the band's original name, and needs to be bolded in the lead. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last two sentences of the lead read awkwardly cause they use "commercial success" twice.
Fixed. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sumner said the punk rock group - is he referring to the concept of a "punk rock group" or the Pistols?
Referring to the Sex Pistols.
  • When (month, year) did the Buzzcocks manager call them and suggest that name?
Shortly before their first performance. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • link "14 April", "27 December", "8 April", and "2 May" because otherwise they would appear contrary to U.S. conventions.
Only full dates are linked. The reason the other dates appear to be in US style is because of autoformatting (British dating is actually consistent throughout). WesleyDodds (talk) 22:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Um, click here. "Full dates, and days and months, are normally autoformatted..." Indopug (talk) 22:52, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • bandmates is not a word - change to band-mates.
Fixed. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • New Order eventually went on to much greater success - cite?
I've been wondering about that since it's quite clear New Order was more successful (for one, they are credited with having the best-selling 12" single of all time). It's just hard to find it written out concisely. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Joy Division because of Curtis's condition. Sumner said, - replace the period by a semi-colon?
It's fine. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • link biopic.
Indopug (talk) 17:56, 24 December 2007 (UTC) [reply]
Fixed. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support An excellent article. A suggestion: maybe you could include that album cover with the hitler youth. Remove that fansite external link. One question: how come it isn't a part of the alt music wikiproject?Indopug (talk) 22:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Joy Division was a predecessor to alt-rock, but not alt-rock in of itself. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments Introductory clauses are sometimes set off by commas ("In April 1979, the band") and sometimes not. In my opinion, "Meanwhile on 27 December Ian Curtis suffered his first recognisable epileptic seizure" would be best with commas (take a look at the third paragraph of Early releases for more comma-free sentences). Also inconsistent are the ellipses in quotations; some have brackets, while others do not. 69.202.60.86 (talk) 15:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
These should all be taken care of now. WesleyDodds (talk) 12:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Terrific job, you two. There's just one area I'd like a little more information on--what sort of recognition did the band have during the seven months or so of its existence. I'm not precisely sure how this might be addressed. Are there any reviews of their performances during the Buzzcocks tour accessible? How did "Transmission" do? Was the European tour their first (and last) tour as headliners? I wouldn't mind knowing how many countries and/or shows were involved. What scale of venues did they play? Was the tour considered a success? Was the British music press paying a lot of attention to them? What was the scale of the planned U.S. tour? (By no means am I arguing that all or even most of these questions need to be answered--just giving an idea of the sort of information that might give us a better sense of the band's status/popularity at the time.)

The existing sentence on the European tour, by the way, has the only point of confusion for me in the article: "In January 1980, Joy Division set out on a European tour. While the tour was difficult, Curtis experienced only two grand mal seizures in the two months preceding the tour's final date." So, "difficult" in what way? Also, is there any reason not to rephrase along these lines: "In January 1980, Joy Division set out on a two-month European tour. While the tour was difficult [?], during it Curtis experienced only two grand mal seizures" or--if the difficulty is dispensable--"In January 1980, Joy Division set out on a two-month European tour, during which Curtis experienced only two grand mal seizures." Best, Dan.—DCGeist (talk) 17:39, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The second question about the "difficulty" of the tour is addressed above. The other items you posted might be harder to ascertain. It's never mentioned how big the US tour was intended to be, but given that the rest of the band assumed the dates as New Order when Curtis killed himself, it could probably be guessed at. I think Deborah Curtis cites some reviews of the Buzzcocks tour, and I might have one myself (I have an NME special devoted to goth that reprints virtually every contemporary Joy Division album and single review, along with an interview and one or two live reviews). The European tour was considered a success, definitely. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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