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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:04, 27 July 2010 [1].

Little Thetford[edit]

Little Thetford (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Senra (talk) 22:54, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it is ready. The article has had feedback, review1, GAN, review2. See the article history here for more details. I have reviewed the criteria carefully. I have used the automated check facilities. I believe it now meets the FA criteria, as best as I am able to prepare it. I am well prepared to work further, to ensure the article meets the necessary standard. Senra (talk) 22:54, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 05:19, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick driveby comment; "the 7.5 miles (12.1 km) return journey from Ely to Sutton cost 2s 0d. That would equate to a cost of almost GBP60 (US$110) at 2008 values." is very misleading. You're using average earnings as your scale, but earnings in Victorian England are based on the gold standard (and were untaxed), and aren't comparable to earnings today. Using the more relevant consumer price index, 2s in 1866 equates to a more realistic £7 ($10) at today's prices. – iridescent 12:10, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Few more comments (S/K, don't take these as an oppose, I haven't reviewed it properly):

  • There seems to be a lot of overlinking and unnecessary linking; per WP:REPEATLINK, in general only the first occurrence of a term should be linked. (I personally link the first occurrence in the lead and the first occurrence in the body text, as I think that's easier.)
  • Does "Notable people" really need its own section, if there's only one person listed and it's debatable if he even lived there (the DNB says he was from Thetford, not Little Thetford)?
  • The "Public services" section seems to contain a lot of fluff and filler; do we really need to know that the town has "weekly collection on Fridays of waste (black bags) and fortnightly collection on Fridays of recycling (brown bags, tins, glass, and paper)"?
  • "In January 1941, Lord Haw-Haw stated that every house in every hamlet and village in the Isle of Ely was to be smashed as a punishment for receiving evacuated Jews. A Luftwaffe plane overflew the village in mid-January, firing at haystacks and houses. No one was hurt in the attack, though one tracer bullet narrowly missed a guest at Home farm." seems to be implying a link between the two events. Is there anything to suggest that the Luftwaffe attack was actually a retaliatory strike for receiving evacuated Jews? – iridescent 13:05, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Average earnings Very relevant. Looking for sources and then I will change the article. --Senra (talk) 13:02, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Average earningsdone See also Average Victorian earnings on user Iridescent (talk · contribs) page --Senra (talk) 14:06, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notable people done Pulled. Shame, as a lot of work went into finding him. Incidentally, ODNB 2010 is wrong. I wrote to ODNB about it as I searched the parish records. References were in the article. Pulled anyway --Senra (talk) 14:26, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lord haw Haw done Tenuous. Pulled --Senra (talk) 14:26, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added the attack and quote back in without the Lord Haw Haw part --Senra (talk) 15:28, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Public service done Pulled --Senra (talk) 14:26, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overlinking agreed. Working through them all now --Senra (talk) 14:26, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Overlinking done Each term wikilinked only once per article as per WP:REPEATLINK --Senra (talk) 15:19, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • So sorry - I had been using done-t template and breaking up reviewers comments - now fixed --Senra (talk) 17:25, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you --Senra (talk) 21:31, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seems to be written in American style, imperial units first, when for most purposes other than road signs the official units in the UK are metric. Why is the only monetary conversion to USD, which has no connection to the article topic - if you are going to give conversions, why not the Euro of the yen, just as (ir)relevant?
  • Why do we need two images of the Roundhouse? Why do we need the dates of the modern pictures, should be on image file page anyway?
  • ''two-hundred years — not sure why the hyphen is there (in lead)
  • instead made, what is now Ely Cathedral, the — not sure why commas are there
  • caption to File:Three Horse Shoes 1906.JPG. Does the main street have a name? Or should it be Main Street?
  • subject to marine incursions, and at other times, fresh water. — I'd add "flooding" as the final word of this sentence
  • " Bedwell Hay farm" is repeated in consecutive sentences, why not make the second occurrence "at the same site"?
  • Cambridge Chronicle — newspapers should be hyphenated
  • Sorry, I meant to put italicised. You were too trusting, but I've corrected the consequential damage from my stupidity
  • Home farm — "Home Farm" more likely
  • Fresh water and marine incursions still affect the land to this day — why "still", you've been talking about the war, not earlier flooding?
  • overwhelmed the rivers throughout England, which burst their banks. — what, all of them?
  • On the night of 31 January 1953, 307 people died during the worst United Kingdom storm-surge in known history, with surge heights reaching nearly 10 feet (3.0 m). Whilst there is no record of any effects in Little Thetford, 386 square miles (1,000 km2) of eastern England were flooded.[47] n— no indication that the town was affected at all, pointless padding
  • The village hall, built in 1958, also hosts the village social club, — why "also"?
  • Little Thetford — I assume the italics in the governance section are intentional, but I don't know why
  • A civil parish need not be the same area as an ecclesiastical parish, but in the case of Little Thetford, they represent the same area.[54] — repeats "same area"
  • You could indicate why coprolite was mined
  • lead-lining. — why hyphen?
  • The Baptist chapel was erected in 1867. There has been a Baptist chapel on this site since 1839. — The Baptist chapel was erected in 1867 on the site of its 1839 predecessor.
  • ''late 15th century Dovecote. — why caps?
  • I've picked up some, but please check carefully that hyphenation and capitalisation are in accordance with MoS
  • Removed first roundhouse picture and removed dates from modern pictures --Senra (talk) 11:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed hyphen from two-hundred --Senra (talk) 11:50, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed commas from instead made --Senra (talk) 11:52, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Street is called Main Street so changed caption --Senra (talk) 12:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Struck "Fresh water and marine incursions still affect the land to this day.<ref name=kirby/>"
  • Changed "... overwhelmed the rivers throughout England, which burst their banks." to "... overwhelmed multiple rivers in England and eastern Wales, which flooded." --Senra (talk) 12:14, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cut storm surge as pointless padding --Senra (talk) 12:15, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Struck also --Senra (talk) 12:16, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Little Thetford stet for now. The reason it is italic is because in this context, the village is referred to as Thetford not Little Thetford. I also use the italic form in the Governance section for the same reason. I need advice on how to handle this --Senra (talk) 12:19, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed all italic forms of Little Thetford as per WP:MoS --Senra (talk) 14:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed repeat of "same area" --Senra (talk) 12:26, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • add words about coprolite --Senra (talk) 13:39, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bedwell Hay repeat and Home Farm not farm fixed --Senra (talk) 13:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed Cambridge Chronilce to Cambridge-Chronicle throughout --Senra (talk) 13:49, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove hyphen from lead-lining --Senra (talk) 13:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Baptist chapel was erected in 1867 on the site of its 1839 predecessor --Senra (talk) 13:53, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dovecote to dovecote --Senra (talk) 13:54, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • add flooding to final word of "... subject to marine incursions, and at other times, fresh water."
  • Remove US$ as per FAC/MOS --Senra (talk) 14:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jimfbleak (talk · contribs) said: "Seems to be written in American style, imperial units first, when for most purposes other than road signs the official units in the UK are metric. ..."
  • stet for now, but open to debate. At the time I was creating the article, I read the MOS which units to use carefully. I was in the process of applying miles to distance and metres to depth when I made the decision to stick to imperial (metric) throughout for consistency. I am happy to make any changes as necessary. Here is a survey of the article as it stands today:
  • 21 occurrences of distance in miles (kilometres)
  • 10 occurrences of area in square miles (square kilometres)
  • 7 occurrences of object height in feet (metres)
  • 2 occurrences of object size in inches (centimetres)
  • one occurrence of weight in pounds (kilograms)
  • one occurrence of temperature in Centigrade (Fahrenheit)
  • One occurrence of depth in inches (mm)
I would welcome any input for this dilemma --Senra (talk) 14:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have checked and corrected some hyphenated words whilst consulting the OED. I would welcome someone else checking it with a more expert eye --Senra (talk) 15:13, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy for the units you have used to stay, just wondered what guided your choice. Best to keep centigrade (Fahrenheit) too; although C not imperial, F is even more archaic in a UK context. Thanks for responding so quickly, I'll have another read through soon Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:26, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images I was checking the image licences. The old ones have appropriate licences, so queries are about more recent images. You uploaded some images by John McCullough. If you are he, it might help to state that on your user page to avoid copyright queries. A more serious problem arises with the tornado pic. The uploader does not have the same name as the photographer, this image is his/her only edit, and there is no camera metadata. Looks a bit suspect to me Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:52, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added my real name to my talk page (reluctantly, but I see your point) – incidentally, I had already sent permission through to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org via my real name for all my own images (not from my wikipedia registered email address though); Sent an email to my friend, the photographer of the tornado image. I offered a number of solutions, including putting his name on his user page, join this thread, send permission to wikipedia by email or we delete the image. Waiting for reply --Senra (talk) 15:57, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Author of Tornado image is going to join the thread at some point today --Senra (talk) 13:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • He has created a user page identifying himself Digital-e (talk · contribs). Is that good enough? --Senra (talk) 13:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am both the creator and uploader of the tornado pic in question. I have created my user page, added my real name, sent a permissions email to permissions-commons, and am now joining this thread. I'm happy to do whatever's required to continue to allow this picture to be used Digital-e (talk) 13:20, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually I had only asked Digital-e to do one of the above, but this belt-and-braces should do the trick methinks! --Senra (talk) 13:22, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bibliography/external links. Can these be ordered alphabetically please. Also the ODNB ref has a bare url, needs fixing or removing. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:58, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes the following WP:RS: Little Thetford dot org, Rootsweb, britainexpress.com, tibsnjoan.co.uk, www.druidic.org?
  • Please spell out ECDC, CHER
  • At least two refs include copyright notices, please remove
  • some belt-and braces with repeated identical publishers (The Independent, Bernard O'Connor) may be others,please check
  • In a couple of refs the publisher is obviously wrong, eg charity-commission.gov.uk. — really The Charity Commission
  • First capital connect. It's a company, First Capital Connect
  • Please change the two all-caps English Heritage titles to a more acceptable style (I know they are all caps in the original, but they need to be consistent with the other refs)
  • ECDC (February 2010). Why is there an address in the ref?
In progress --Senra (talk) 09:14, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rootsweb removed --Senra (talk) 09:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • stet Little Thetford dot org qualifies a number of statement. Working on how I can resolve this one --Senra (talk) 10:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC) Enumerating the references (related to this version of the article)[reply]
  • Ref (28) qualifies "The chain ferry linked Barway with Little Thetford." and "The Horseshoes is a Grade II listed residential thatched cottage which was originally the Three Horseshoes public house, closed in 1970."
  • Ref actually qualifies "... closed in 1970" so "... closed in 1970" and ref removed --Senra (talk) 12:25, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The chain ferry linked Barway with Little Thetford." replaced with 1836 map reference --Senra (talk) 11:57, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref (36) qualifies "The village sent sixty-three men to fight during World War I, 1914 – 1918, which represents over thirty percent of the village population of 1911."
  • Ref (37) qualifies "Two villagers won Distinguished Conduct Medal's."
  • Ref (39) qualifies "One of the thatched houses in Little Thetford was destroyed by fire."
  • Removed reference as news referenced later in paragraph qualifies statement --Senra (talk) 12:07, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref (43) qualifies "Another villager, serving on board HMS Warspite, was wounded at Salerno, during the ships support of the Allied invasion of Italy, and died of his wounds."
  • Ref (76) qualifies "There is a vineyard on Elysian Fields at Bedwell Hey farm."
  • Ref (96) qualifies "A Sun Firemark insurance policy still exists, number 616606, dated July 1793. It is the earliest known written record of the house."
  • www.druidic.org (reluctantly) removed sentence about flower festival and associated reference talk:Senra|talk]]) 10:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)--Senra (talk) 11:19, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • tibsnjoan.co.uk replaced with article from newsletter in Cambridge Cycling Campaign, No. 42, July 2002 --Senra (talk) 10:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Britainexpress.com fixed by removing statement --Senra (talk) 10:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not necessarily saying that the sites are not RS, it just that it's not clear who is maintaining the sites or what their credentials are Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand but I am trying to remove them. I will have difficulty with (36)(37)43) and (96) (related to this version of the article) so your advice would be useful. The site is of course the village website, maintained by the village. It is directed by members of the village parish council. There is no written edit policy. I am still working on trying to eliminate the references but struggling now with the war and insurance policy. --Senra (talk) 12:53, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Going to stick my neck out here and ask for a stet on references (36)(37)43) and (96) (related to this version of the article). I know the author. He is the same for all these references. In the case of (96) I can, if asked, take a picture of the policy in question. In the case of (36)(37), and (43) he did the research himself and as a member of the parish council, I trust that research. Advise please. All other suspect WP:RS dealt with I believe --Senra (talk) 13:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tricky, while I have no reason to doubt the stated facts, "he did the research himself" looks like WP:OR. You need to help us a bit here; you have sourced to an anonymous contributor doing his own research. You need to either name the contributor and state his credentials as a historian, or, better, reference the facts to the sources he used. Ask him what they were if you know him Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs (36) and (43) - added further references to church memorials but still leaving the thetford.org website. I hope this is satisfactory
  • Ref (37) - found the two relevant London Gazette entries and referenced them fully
  • Ref (96) - pulled for now. However, please indicate how I can resolve this. Can I take a photo of it and store said photo in wikimedia commons as a reference?
--Senra (talk) 11:07, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comment Looks like it's getting there but one thing struck me from the lede picturesque village - who says so? Sorry to be pedantic but it's sounds POV-ish. NtheP (talk) 13:28, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pulled picturesque. On reflection, it was mentioned here. There is a direct quote for it as shown above. However, the village may not be as picturesque today as it was in 1953. So pulled --Senra (talk) 11:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Do we know the etymology of the name? Also, the article twice gives what is presumably the same mention of the village as Liteltetford (1086, Domesday Book). Ucucha 16:38, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (1) Not sure I fully understand the first part of your query. Re-reading Mills, he heads the "Thetford" entry with people's or public ford then describes the first use of Thetford, Norfolk with two dates then goes on to describe the first use of Thetford, Little, Cambs with two dates. I did not transcribe people's or public ford into the article. Perhaps I should have done? --Senra (talk) 17:16, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • (2) As to the second part of your question. Very interesting. During copy-editing, I corrected what I thought was a mistake. I corrected Liteltetford in the sentence "Toponymists have classified the place name, Little Thetford—Old English lȳtel Thiutforda (c. 972) and Liteltetford (1086), distinct from Thetford, Norfolk—Old English Thēodford (late 9th century)." from what I thought was an error on my part. Re-reading Mills, he says Liteltedford (which is what I had originally). Now the Domesday book (online edition via domesdaybook.co.uk) says Liteltetford as I have recorded in the article. To cut a long story short, (other than in the lead) there are indeed two mentions of Liteltetford in the history section BUT the first mention should be Liteltedford to be the same as MIlls. However, further to all this, I suspect either Mills or Domesday as wrong. So, what do I do here? --Senra (talk) 17:16, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Answering my own queries here, I am inclined to correct the article adding something like (1)"Thetford means people's or public ford" and (2) re-enter Liteltedford as the Mills entry with a hidden note to copy-editors that it is spelled correctly according to Mills. Also, does this mean we are Little peoples-ford? (Hyphen in the correct place) --Senra (talk) 17:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed --Senra (talk) 18:08, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the replies. A few more things arising from this:

  • It is not yet clear to me whether the name "Thetford" has the same origin as "Little Thetford". If it does, I'm not sure what the "as distinct from" in the article means. (By the way, it seems like the element Thet- has the same origin as Deut- in "Deutschland"—might be worth mentioning if there is a source that says the same.)
  • I cannot find Thiut in the sorces I have access to. The distinct from will be pulled; it is left over from when Public or peoples ford was not in the article. Not sure I can expand further on the name here, as my multi-lingual skills are zero ( I can barely manage my native English) --Senra (talk) 19:35, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Compare the entries for thede and Dutch (also the same stem) in the OED. The normal OE form was apparently þíod or þéod. But neither entry mentions Little Thetford, of course, and to use them for the etymology of this village's name would be original synthesis. Ucucha 19:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed? I have removed distinct to and replaced with compare with --Senra (talk) 20:02, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 1086 mention of Liteltedford is very likely the Domesday Book, but the article also says the village was called Liteltetford in the Domesday Book, and the cited online version of the Book indeed uses that spelling. However, this online version actually gives Liteltedford. I haven't been able to find actual page images of the Book (and I'm not sure whether I'd be able to read them).
  • I did find a folio version. Even though google books says it is searcheable, it seems not. I will make a note in the article pointing out the spelling differences --Senra (talk) 19:35, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, that won't make it easy to actually find Little Thetford. Ucucha 19:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ucucha 19:04, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I definitely do not want to be accused of WP:OR so I have left the article spelling Litte Thetford differently from different clear sources. Liteltedford from Mills, and Liteltetford from Domesday Book Online. However, I have added a third refernce note as follows: Liteltedford in Briggs, Keith (2010) Domesday Book place-name forms and Liteltedford in (2010) National Archives. Liteltetford in (1999 – 2010) The Domesday Book Online, and Mills (1991 – 1998) Tetford Lincs. Tedforde 1086 (DB) 'People's or public ford'. OE Thēod + ford
  • will that suffice? --Senra (talk) 20:08, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, and why do you have a ref in the middle of a quote (a few sentences down the paragraph where the etymology is mentioned)? Ucucha 19:08, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because through review and GAN the quote was queried until I eventually went to the library (I guess out of frustration more than anything), research until I found the actually King and Queen's visit recorded, and was able to reference the event. To be fair, the reference is at the end of the quote not the middle. How would you advise I deal with this? I could remove the reference leaving the quote open to a (citation needed) tag; remove the event and quote entirely; leave it alone? --Senra (talk) 20:18, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • agreed Prose and quote and both refs removed. see below --Senra (talk) 22:07, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Author comment got a glimpse of MalleousF passing by, and as a result made a few more changes (see diff) following his lead. Hyphens, ndashes, and mdashes still confuse me. Still I think I got it right this time --Senra (talk) 11:40, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • MF just corrected me. Xth-century as an adjective; Xth century otherwise - fixed --Senra (talk) 13:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. There are a few bits I can't quite make sense of. Here are a few examples from the lead:
    • "A small Pre-Roman Iron Age pottery was discovered, underneath a more substantial Romano-British pottery, on village land." Is there a word missing? A pottery what? Why "on village land", and what does that mean? If it hadn't been found "on village land", then presumably it wouldn't have been mentioned in this article anyway.
    • "Geographically, the village is on an island surrounded by flat fenland countryside, typical for the East of England region." Geographically as opposed to what? Historically?
    • "There is evidence of human settlement on the island since the late Neolithic Age, whilst a Bronze Age causeway linked the village with the nearby Barway, to the south-east." The "whilst" implies a degree of simultaneity, which clearly can't be the case. Similarly with this sentence: "The Roman road Akeman Street passed through the north-west corner of the parish, whilst the lost Anglo-Saxon village of Cratendune, c. 7th century, may be nearby."
    • "Ælfwaru, an 11th-century Anglo-Saxon noblewoman, was the first documented landowner of the village ...". Not quite sure what "landowner of the village" means? Did she own the village, or was she a landowner in the village?
    • "The draining of the land, which began in the 17th century, led to an arable farming culture that continues to this day." Can farming really be called a culture, as opposed to an economic activity?
    • "About half of Little Thetford was eventually enclosed under the Parliamentary Inclosure Thetford Act of Victoria. Coprolite was mined on village land during the late 19th century." I think this is typical of a general problem with the lead: unrelated sentences grouped together for no obvious reason. For instance, why not deal with all of the village's economic activity – farming, coprolite mining, whatever else – in one place? You could also, for instance, merge "Little Thetford to London by road is about 76 miles (122 km)" into the opening sentence: "Little Thetford /ˈlit(ə)l 'θetfɔːd/ is a small village 3 miles (4.8 km) south of Ely in Cambridgeshire, England, about 76 miles (122 km) by road from London. That kind of thing would help ameliorate the feeling of bittiness the lead currently has.
  • I haven't looked in detail at the rest of the article yet, but if I have similar comments to make about other sections, then I'll leave them on the talk page rather than clutter up this review. Malleus Fatuorum 18:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Acknowledged. To be fair to me, I had asked, elsewhere, for help with the lead. I will try and fix the issues you raise. --Senra (talk) 18:24, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A small Pre-Roman Iron Age pottery..." stet for now as not sure how to fix - need time to work it out --Senra (talk) 18:43, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • MF, the meaning here is "a place where pottery is made" standard in BE at least, so I don't think it's an (adjectival) pottery anything Jimfbleak - talk to me? 19:21, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is my difficulty too. I do not know enough about the mechanics of English to explain it. Would it be better to say "A small Pre-Roman-Iron-Age pottery..."? or perhaps "An investigation, prior to a 1995 development in the village, discovered a large pottery of Romano-British origin; further investigations uncovered an earlier pottery of the Pre-Roman Iron Age."? I do not peronally like it as it is no longer chronological. However, it does follow the order of archaeological investigation, i.e. top-down.--Senra (talk) 21:37, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah, I can be so stupid sometimes. Malleus Fatuorum 22:07, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can be stupid too Malleus. A local villager just rang to ask me what the sentence meant as it sounded rubbish. On further reflection, it is. Fixed. "An investigation, prior to a 1995 development in the village, discovered a farm and large tile-kiln of Romano-British origin; further investigations uncovered an earlier settlement of the Pre-Roman Iron Age." --Senra (talk) 09:12, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Geographically, the village is..." to "The village is built on a boulder clay island, which is surrounded by flat fenland countryside, typical for settlements in the East of England region." fixed --Senra (talk) 18:43, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not fixed. Broke in fact. It is not typical for the east of england (e.g. there is chalk outcrops to the east of us) so reworded: "...typical of settlements in this part of the East of England." --Senra (talk) 23:03, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "There is evidence of human settlement..." and ""The Roman road Akeman Street passed..." both fixed --Senra (talk) 18:57, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ælfwaru, an 11th-century Anglo-Saxon noblewoman,..." stet for now. Liber Eliensis records she granted lands to Ely Abbey. It is not recorded how much. Her [translated] will says: "... and she gave to ... Æthelthryth ... that land at Thetford and fisheries around those marshes ...." She owned all or part of the land. It is not clear. --Senra (talk) 18:57, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The draining of the land,..." fixed as "The draining of the land, which began in the 17th century, enabled a more arable farming centric activity, that continues to this day." --Senra (talk) 19:08, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "About half of Little Thetford..." and the more general issue of bittiness, is hard for me to fix. I had tried to make the lead chronological, which is why some things appear out of place. Frankly, I see the problem myself, but I feel unable to fix it. Leaving the wiki for an hour, with a pencil and a double-spaced printout of the lead in front of me. I will be back --Senra (talk) 19:14, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead section is probably the biggest challenge at FAC; to create a comprehensive summary that reads well is not easy Jimfbleak - talk to me? 19:25, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I took a rest, then refreshed, I made some changes to the lead, in the light MF comments. I think I got it right --Senra (talk) 22:20, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • MF and I have put you through the mill on this, but I'm happy that it is now up to the required standard, indicated support above Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:11, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. All my comments have been dealt with, and I've been through the whole article again. I'm impressed that so much can be written about a tiny village without even a pub(!), but I believe that this article now meets the FA criteria. Malleus Fatuorum 21:40, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your support --Senra (talk) 22:22, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, hopefully temporarily. Like Malleus, I am extremely impressed with the depth of this article about such a little village, and with the meticulous work of the nom in assembling the material. The article pushes the envelope a bit on WP:OR / WP:RS, and I can see there has been a fair bit of discussion and resolution of these matters above. However, my attention was drawn by some examples that concern me, and suggest other reviewers might want to take a look:
  • "In 2010, the local historian, Mike Petty, commented: It is a good job the attack did not happen on the 18 January 1941: otherwise it could have changed the course of British history. The King and Queen of England travelled [past the village] up the A10 by car to open the R.A.F. hospital [in Ely] that day." There is a citation provided. However, when you look at it, the cite is to "Their Majesties Visit R.A.F. Hospital". The Cambridgeshire Times (Archant, Herts and Cambs): p. 5. 24 January 1941. Thus, there is actually no citation for the Petty comment, and thus no citation for the idea that the attack could have changed the course of British history.
  • "Thetford seems to be the preferred administrative name used for the village, which is easily confused with Thetford in Norfolk, therefore the local newspapers have used the name Thetford-in-the-Isle (1822)." (I have since slightly copyedited this sentence, but that is not relevant here) A citation is provided for this sentence, the work being called "Transcript of stories from the Ely Chronicle", which sounds like a contemporary book, perhaps prepared by a historian, transcribing old news stories. But there is no contemporary publication date provided. Leaving that aside, this appears to refer to a single newspaper article in 1822, which hardly seems to substantiate the claim of the sentence.
  • Not sure whether other editors have a view about the use of an 1833 county newspaper as the source for a description of events in 1833 (not as a quote, but as the only source for the facts in WP): "Officials arrived in the village armed with nothing more than a notice to be pinned on the Church of England's St. George's church door. They were prevented from doing so by a dozen villagers. The officials returned later with ten constables, authorised by Ely magistrates. This time, the officials were confronted by 150 stick-wielding protesters, who continued to prevent due process. When the clergyman, Henry Harvey Barber, arrived the following afternoon, he was prevented from carrying out his normal Sunday service." I would also comment that some of this sounds like an actual quote, and should be presented as such.
  • I don't think this could possibly be a reliable source: Martin, Andrew (1998–2008). "The Family Tree:Dewsbury of Little Thetford". http://www.familytreeuk.co.uk/Dewsbury/index.html.
  • I have carefully read the reference provided for the following: "An early Anglo-Saxon cemetery, 410–1065 AD, uncovered in 1947 near Little Thetford, was thought to be this lost village of Cratendune", and would respectfully suggest that the source (1) does not give those dates for the cemetery but for the deserted settlement (2) questions whether or not the cemetery is related to the deserted settlement (3) does not mention 1947 as a date of discovery and (4) makes no mention of Little Thetford as a proximate location. This won't do. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:52, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure what others think about the issue, but there is no reference for the following: "The last public house in Little Thetford was the Fish and Duck, situated along the river nearer Stretham. It closed in 2005 and has since been demolished." hamiltonstone (talk) 04:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • And the sentence thereafter states "There is a combined newsagent, post office, and grocery store in Stretham, 2 miles (3.2 km) south of the village". However, the reference for this is the generic branch finder search engine for the Post Office - and when I typed in "Little Thetford", the answer I got was not the one given in the WP article. Again, i don't think this is OK, unless the view is that 'common knowledge' should apply (i would sympathise with this and remove the citation). Note a 'common knowledge' approach can't be applied to the previous sentence about a building which is no longer there. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Other aspects of the article, such as comprehensiveness and good use of images, are outstanding. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:40, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for your review. I will get back to answer these later today. Just a quicky - village asked me to remove the two post-offices the post-code finder finds as they were concerned about advertising; they are only open one day per week for a couple of hourse each for issuing pension money. Back later --Senra (talk) 07:01, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • agreed "In 2010, the local historian, Mike Petty, commented:..." and preceding two sentences as fair comment. The two stories are true; the comment by a respected historian is ture as transcribed (aside from copyedit changes by others since I first put the quote into the article); pulled the story and quote actually came from a talk Mike Petty, gave at the local Ely library. I have since found the two stories in the newspaper archives. Nevertheless, there is indeed "...no citation for the idea that the attack could have changed the course of British history." and thus pulled --Senra (talk) 14:00, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • agreed "Thetford seems to be the preferred administrative name ". The village is Thetford (e.g. VCH, OS maps (parish name)), Thetford-in-the-Isle (e.g. multiple stories in a book of clippings - admittedly not well referenced), Little Thetford (sign posts, OS maps, Literature). Not certain what I can do here. For now, pulled the contentious statement --Senra (talk) 14:25, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • stet "Not sure whether other editors have a view about the use of an 1833 county newspaper..." I do not have access to the newspaper in question anymore (although I could make the trip to get it) but the article is also transcribed (by someone else) here. I adapted my prose from the newspaper. Actually, my original source was some notes made by someone else at a talk given by Mike Petty at the local library. I since sought out the article, and since also found the online transcription too. There are no quotes to my knowledge. Stet for now but will pull if requested --Senra (talk) 14:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • agreed "I don't think this could possibly be a reliable source:..." will re-reference (if I can) or pull --Senra (talk) 14:52, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Contentious statement plus ref removed --Senra (talk) 17:21, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • agreed "I have carefully read the reference provided for the following: "An early Anglo-Saxon cemetery, 410–1065 AD, uncovered in 1947..." Fixed? I used cemetery instead of settlement. It is the settlement, found on village land in 1947, which may have been the lost village (now thought to be nearer Ely as referenced in next sentence --Senra (talk) 15:00, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just to explain the apparent turn-around here. At first I re-read the reference in the article and agreed with Hamiltonstone. So I made the above correction. The villager I am working with then contacted me, and I went round to collect the journal reference mentioned below. I read that journal reference, and therefore made the changes, as shown below --Senra (talk) 18:08, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • not agreed I went and found the article Fowler, Gordon (1946–1947). "Cratendune: A Problem of the Dark Ages". Proceedings of the Cambridge Antiquarian Society: 70–73. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help) (from my villager friend) and have read it. The date is not clear. Page 70, Fowler says "... Dr. Margaret Murray of Cambridge last year..." placing it around 1945. Page 72 after dicussing the find of skeletons being bulldozed he continues "Mr Letheridge has told me that these finds are of a type normal to pagan Anglo-Saxon cemeteries of about the period A.D. 450–650.". Mr Fowler summarises "Can the cemetery be associated with the lost village of Cratendune, and, if so, where is its site likely to be?". I think the article stands (with settlement changed back to cemetery and 1947 changed to 1945) --Senra (talk) 17:18, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • stet? "Not sure what others think about the issue, but there is no reference for the following: "The last public house..." This is a really hard one. It is a fact. I cannot get a drink. I lived in the village when it was open. I took a photo when it was still open - it is in the article. It is no longer there - see photo here Gallery:Fish and Duck Marina John Parish. The issue here is when any of the seven (7 not in dispute - mentioned on maps and heritage records for some of the old ph's) public houses closed. Kelly's for example tell us they were open at particular times; brewery records can tell us the same; newspapers may tell us when a pub closed. However, the clippings file for Little Thetford is not complete. Judith Young did research which did not find closure dates. Removing this (and the following about shops) would be hard for the article. There is no pubs in the village. There is no shops. But finding references for these statements is difficult (so far impossible but I have tried) --Senra (talk) 15:15, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • partial agreement reworded "It closed soon after January 2003 and has since been demolished" --Senra (talk) 17:27, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I think someone has probably already said, Wikiepdia aims for verifiability, not truth. I think you could have something along the lines "Kelly's Directories of 19xx show Y public houses in Little Thetford; as of 2010 there are none." It is the desire for greater detail than this that starts to get you into difficulty. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • agreed? "And the sentence thereafter states "There is a combined newsagent, post office, and grocery store in Stretham, 2 ..." See previous version that village asked me to pull. There is in fact two of these; one at each end of the village. (Small whimper; obviously a cry for help) all I wanted to do is show that the small 2 sq mi village does not have any pubs or shops and the nearest shop is Stretham. Pulling reference as suggested as nothing else I can do. I am sure someone will want a reference put back in though --Senra (talk) 15:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks Senra. This is getting close to being resolved. Can I make a general comment? I think a number of your problems are resulting from trying to include a high level of detail about a very small place, and the more detail you seek to include (egs include closing of the last pub, location of the post office), the less likely you are to have a reliable source for it. However, many of these minor details are not necessary for an encyclopedia article. Omitting detail of this level would not threaten the article's capacity to be a Feature Article; indeed it might be improved by avoiding small details that non-Thetford residents would not be seeking. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:49, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am struggling to be within the rules and yet tell people how far the nearest groceries are; say there are no public houses (loss of public houses is a big issue here). Let me sleep on this --Senra (talk) 23:27, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed? "The last public house in Little Thetford was the Fish and Duck, situated along the river nearer Stretham. It closed soon after January 2003 and has since been demolished" replaced with "There was a public house at Little Thetford, the Fish and Duck, situated along the river nearer Stretham; it closed sometime during 2006, and the owning company dissolved in 2010."plus 3 references. I recognise two of the references are not WP:RS so I am off to the library soon to search through the newspaper records --Senra (talk) 11:24, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed two hours at the library and still no newspaper references for the Fish and Duck. The two sentences now read "There was a public house at Little Thetford, the Fish and Duck, situated along the river nearer Stretham;[1] it closed sometime during 2006,[2][3] and the owning company dissolved on 11 May 2010.[4]" where references [1] and [4] should be WP:RS whilst reference [2][3] may not be WP:RS but the combination should suffice. Let me know if this is enough please --Senra (talk) 16:37, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to replace existing 2006 image of roundhouse with 1906 image. Please join the debate --Senra (talk) 17:37, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

...and there is an IP 85.210.105.219 who is trying to outright remove the image and is edit warring, acting patently uncivil, and launching attacks - all in one felt swoop. –MuZemike 21:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:FA Criteria 3 met Fasach Nua (talk) 18:00, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your support --Senra (talk) 09:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, given as we like plainer English, why not "Middle Stone Age" instead of "mesolithic"? Is the former term antiquated? It is certainly more accessible to the lay reader....?
Link neolithic to either neolithic or late neolithic..?
"A Romano-British farm, c. 200 AD, largely following a previous Iron Age settlement, 200–100 BC," - bit un-proselike --> how would A Romano-British farm from around 200 AD, largely built upon a previous Iron Age settlement dating from 200–100 BC, sound... or even "A Second (Third?) Century Romano-British farm from around 200 AD, largely built upon a previous (older?) 2nd cent. BC Iron Age settlement"
"thick crystal" - not sure what this should be linked to, but is it crystal-glass or..what?
belt of mainly Jurassic, e.g., Kimmeridge, clays running south-west - why not just " belt of mainly Jurassic Kimmeridge clays running south-west " - or are there other types of Jurassic clays there?

Otherwise lookin' pretty good. There is a little overreliance on abbreviations, so any more you can do without would be good, though I don't see any drop-dead clangers left. Casliber (talk · contribs) 06:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Middle Stone Age instead of Mesolithic
  • stet for now whilst seeking further input. I am unsure of this. I accept Middle Stone Age is more acceptable to the lay-reader. However, in Europe at least, it may be inaccurate. I also accept I can use a piped link such as Middle Stone Age, but then I may fall foul of link clarity (WP:LINK). The more accurate contemporary term in this context is Middle Palaeolithic. I note in passing that the OED quotes The Guardian as writing "The Mesolithic or Middle Stone Age" --Senra (talk) 08:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • How about I change the two occurences as follows?
--Senra (talk) 14:12, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Link neolithic to either neolithic or late neolithic
  • stet for now whilst seeking further input. I am unsure of this too. A previous draft of this article was WP:OVERLINK so I removed all links other than the first occurrence. In Wikipedia, Late Neolithic redirects to Neolithic. In the article, I use either Neolithic or late Neolithic according to the each source --Senra (talk) 09:02, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"A Romano-British farm, ..."- bit un-proselike
"thick crystal"
  • agreed It currently reads "...1-centimetre (0.39 in) thick crystal, gold, garnet, and amethyst pendant..." which is intended to mean "...1 cm-thick crytal, gold, garnet, and amethyst pendant...". The source reads "C7th pendant made of crystal, gold, garnet and amethyst coloured glass, probably ploughed out near site of AS" and "R1, Pendant made of crystal, gold, garnet and amethyst coloured glass, probably ploughed out near site of AS cemetery. The foundation of the pendant is a flattened disc bead of clear colourless rock crystal, 3cm in diameter and 1cm in thickness.". I will reword this --Senra (talk) 09:17, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • fixed Reworded to read "...1-centimetre (0.39 in) thick rock-crystal, gold, garnet, and amethyst coloured-glass pendant...". I am unhappy with this so will be rewording for clarity. I need a little time to think it through --Senra (talk) 09:50, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
belt of mainly Jurassic, e.g., Kimmeridge, clays running south-west
  • stet for now. There are other clays in the nearby area, such as Oxford clay. The sources for this section were three-fold; two of the sources were used in the article. Darby (1940) and Geological survey of Great Britain (1980) both indicate Little Thetford is mainly Kimmeridge clay, but there are other clays in the region. The third, unreferenced, source is an archaeological post-doc at Cambridge University Earth Science department whom I contacted to check the accuracy of the geology section of this article. --Senra (talk) 09:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay - not so fussed as all these are pretty obscure. Sounds like you've done what you can. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Would ...1-centimetre (0.39 in) thick pendant made from rock-crystal, gold, garnet, and amethyst-coloured glass ... read any better? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:12, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
fixedIndeed it would and I had come to the same conclusion though I was answering emails and stuff and had not got around to editing the article. Thank you. --Senra (talk) 10:48, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Impressive article given the 693 population. Yet it was an easy, engaging read. Ceoil (talk) 09:14, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your support --Senra (talk) 09:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support A very detailed account of the village, and as Ceoil also says, also readable. I'm not wild about the oddly precise date ranges for periods such as the Bronze Age (1600–1001 gives the impression the Middle Bronze Age ended on 31st December 1001 and the Late Bronze Age began at 12:00am sharp), but as they're taken from the source I don't mind them staying. Nev1 (talk) 18:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am happy to reduce the precision if necessary; as you say, taken from the source. If I recall, in some cases, again following the sources, I used the prefix "c." which has since been copy-edited and replaced with "about". I have thought for a while that there are too many occurrences of constructs such as [epoc](date-range) which could be replaced by [epoc][footnote ref. to (date-range)] making the text flow easier. Thank you for your support. I would welcome advice. In the meantime stet --Senra (talk) 19:01, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, basically per Nev1 above. I do have some stylistic issues with the article, but they're all "that's not how I'd have done it" issues rather than actual problems. I know from experience how hard it can be to source British geography articles when one's not dealing with major cities; this is an impressive blood-from-a-stone exercise. – iridescent 18:53, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am happy to listen to advice. In the meantime, thank you for your support --Senra (talk) 19:04, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment by nom I can imagine it may be frowned upon to add content during the FAC. I therefore request permission here before adding anything. At the recent Cambridge 8 meet up I met Maproom (talk · contribs)— [www.maproom.org copyright free maps]— following which I discovered John Cary's coach routes. In his 1817 work, Cary's New Itinerary, he records a coach route from London to King's Lynn passing by the village. I am considering entering the following italicised text shown in its context as follows "This straight north-north-east section originates in Stretham and heads towards Ely. John Cary, the 18 century cartographer, documents a coach route from London to King's Lynn passing by the village in his Cary's New Itinerary.[cite book][external ref to map] Road vehicle access to the village is now from the A10 road at Thetford Corner. Stagecoach operate the X9 bus service, Cambridge to March via Ely."

--Senra (talk) 17:47, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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