Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sonic and the Secret Rings/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was not promoted by Karanacs 16:58, 29 June 2010 [1].
Sonic and the Secret Rings[edit]
Sonic and the Secret Rings (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
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I am nominating this for featured article because after a successful GAN, VG peer review, copyedit helpfully provided by Zeality, and final quick run-through (that wasn't on purpose) by me, I believe it is up to standards with the other VG FA's. Tezero (talk) 14:19, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - There's no dabs in the article but there is a dead link. GamerPro64 (talk) 14:39, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Brianboulton[edit]
Sources issues
Ref 8: Suggest PALGN be spelt out as "PAl Gaming Network (PALGN)"- I'm not sure. "IGN" isn't spelled out. Tezero (talk) 03:00, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Fair point. I believe that PALGN and IGN are basically logos which have become accepted as identifying names. Strictly, IGN should be IGN Entertainment and PALGN should be PAL Gaming Network, but I'll leave this to you. Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure. "IGN" isn't spelled out. Tezero (talk) 03:00, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 24: Author and date information not in accordance with the sourceRefs 41, 42 and 43 seem uninformative (cf nos 10 & 35)- Why is http://www.thatvideogameblog.com/2008/03/21/the-3rd-party-wii-games-that-sold-a-million/ a reliable source?
- Never looked that much into it. It seemed professional enough, I thought. I'm hesitant to remove it because it provides the most significant sales information in the article. Tezero (talk) 02:53, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a blog; such sites often hold correct information, but cannot be considered reliable when we lack information about editorial control, etc. I see that the only fact cited here is the 1.2 million sales figure. I would have thought that this information could be verified elsewhere. Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I know it has "Blog" in the title, but it is used in such articles as Resident Evil 4 and the best-seller list. The site requires official approval before applicants are accepted, and any posts have to be based on press releases. Tezero (talk) 01:06, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I'll leave this for other editors to decide. If no objections raised, that's fine. Brianboulton (talk) 13:52, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I know it has "Blog" in the title, but it is used in such articles as Resident Evil 4 and the best-seller list. The site requires official approval before applicants are accepted, and any posts have to be based on press releases. Tezero (talk) 01:06, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a blog; such sites often hold correct information, but cannot be considered reliable when we lack information about editorial control, etc. I see that the only fact cited here is the 1.2 million sales figure. I would have thought that this information could be verified elsewhere. Brianboulton (talk) 23:15, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Never looked that much into it. It seemed professional enough, I thought. I'm hesitant to remove it because it provides the most significant sales information in the article. Tezero (talk) 02:53, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise sources seem OK. Brianboulton (talk) 19:09, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Ost316[edit]
- Prose
- Some of the text seems disjoint or incomplete. Here are some areas that I noted and potential ways to clarify:
- Sonic completes the story in the "Adventure" mode; the player can also select "Party" and "Special Book" modes seems as if it could use a bit more transition for the previous paragraph. Perhaps along the lines of, The game's story is completed in "Adventure" mode, with "Party" and "Special Book" modes also available to the player, unless players can only select those modes after completing story mode (in which case that should probably be mentioned, too). Following this sentence, Party is not in quotes but Storybook is.
- Maybe change Sonic recognizes them as old acquaintances; they do not recognize him, and Shahra insists that Sonic's perception is mistaken to Though Sonic recognizes them as old acquaintances, they...
- The explanation of Fire Souls should probably be separated from the rest of the sentence with a colon or emdash instead of a comma.
- Add what it means to hold the Wiimote like a traditional controller: He is controlled exclusively with the Wii Remote, which is intended to be held pointing sideways like a traditional gamepad.
- I considered suggesting horizontally, but I've never played the game so I'm having trouble picturing which orientation it would be held by the player within the horizontal plane (is the d-pad to the left or to the front). Maybe it doesn't matter, but I think of the 'mote as being used as traditional gamepad when it is used similar to a NES controller. —Ost (talk) 16:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right; that's how it is with this game. Thus, I conclude that I explained it well enough. Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because I guessed correctly does not mean that it is explained well enough; I should not have to guess which way the d-pad goes. Do sources or the instruction manual refer to it this way with no clarification to orientation within the horizontal plane? As Jinnai and Hellknowz point out below about wikilinking gamer terms, readers unfamiliar with a traditional gamepad or the wiimote may not understand what this orientation means. —Ost (talk) 21:26, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Sonic appears to defeat Erazor, but he boasts that he is immortal; Sonic reveals that he possesses Erazor's lamp. to During the battle, Sonic appears to defeat Erazor, who subsequently boasts that he is immortal. Sonic then reveals that he possesses Erazor's lamp. A semicolon doesn't seem to link the thoughts well enough.
- Secret Rings is three-dimensional and uses the PhysX engine. seems out of place.
—Ost (talk) 20:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for considering and acting on my suggestions. The article seems well-written and well-sourced. —Ost (talk) 16:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by H3llkn0wz[edit]
Resolved comments from — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 19:22, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply] |
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This is a comment.
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Really nice reception, btw. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 19:22, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank for doing all the "other stuff"! — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 20:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know I am nitpicky and the collapsed box now spans several "scroll-downs". But I also respect the work you do to correct these after having already reread and rechecked the article time and time again! So don't get discouraged on this. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 00:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks. I appreciate your being thorough and willing to return more than once with more comments. Hopefully the article meets your standard for FAs. Tezero (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- As per Jinnai, gameplay may indeed be shifting into crufty due to non-gamer explanations. I realize I contributed to this. To answer the issue, I suggest shortening the material.
I'll propose a copyedit (with detailed comments) of the first part for now:
- So "Sonic constantly runs..." or "Sonic is constantly running..." without "forward".
- (Assuming above is not accepted) "He runs along a predesignated path by default" - this is a matter of preference, but "by default" sounds like a very mechanical language. Also it is partially redundant to "predesignated".
- "Tilting the Wii Remote forward, backward, left, or right tilts his movement in the corresponding direction." -> "...players adjust his forward movement by tilting the controller". This should be placed before jump/halt mechanics, as it is more important and directly relevant to his constant running. The "left/right" sentence is excessively wordy; I believe "tilt" already explicitly explains all that. I think saying - "Sonic constantly runs" -and- "players turn with Wii" fits nicely into a single sentence.
- (skipped some text) Also, "corresponding controller buttons" doesn't make sense; corresponding to what? Tezero (talk) 01:45, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "Players can jump and brake by pressing the respective controller buttons" - correct word and spell out. I used "corresponding" because it stuck in my mind from the tilt sentence. Although it still implies the same thing — there is a button to jump and a button to brake. You could add "respective controller buttons for these actions" if you really want to stress out that these buttons correspond to these actions, although I cannot see how that is not already obvious. — HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 12:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "He"->"Sonic" - just a little variety from "he".
- Where? It says both "he" and "Sonic" many times. Tezero (talk) 22:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "He is controlled... He runs forward..." --
I underlined in altered version.These comments were only about theabovealtered paragraph. This is nitpicking, so don't pay attention if you think this doesn't improve anything. It is my personal preference to repeat who "he/she/it" is so the reader can follow easily between many other facts.— HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 00:01, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- "He is controlled... He runs forward..." --
- Where? It says both "he" and "Sonic" many times. Tezero (talk) 22:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Next big thing is jump and brake(halt?) (and I would list these in that order, as jumping is far more Sonic style than braking). Button position on gamepad is how-to, so I would exclude it. I agree that saying this is done via buttons (as opposed to Wii motion) is important to distinguish. Also, does Sonic actually halt and stop or only slows down?
- "homing attack, a move" -> "special move" - reduce redundancy and removes the need to explain "homing" part unless it is really important? Are the words "homing attack" repeatedly mentioned in the manual?
- "which propels him forward" - perhaps unnecessary? I think this is one of the least useful parts.
- "damaging any enemies in his path" - "any" is redundant; if it was not all enemies, it would be mentioned
- "Like in other games in the series, Sonic collects..." - newline preferred, this is a long paragraph and rings/live/checkpoints/levels can be seperated to a new para.
Comments by Jinnai[edit]
Comments- After further review I would have to Oppose it at this time. There are numerous problems with this article that I could easily spot.
Resolved issues
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Went through the article some more and found some other stuff.
- You have an excess and arbitray number of links in gameplay section. I realize this is a video game, but you link to a lot off commonly used terms like boss while ignoring stuff like unlockable content. I basically think this section needs to be weened of most of the links except where they are core elements of the game. Boss fights don't appear to be that important as say Shadow of the Colossus. That one doesn't even link to it and you'll notice it has only a few links in gameplay. This also pertains to other sections such as linking to oil lamp which is not really relevant as far as I can tell anymore than the word people which isn't wikilinked.
The reason I say to renove links is because of what many links posted near each other does.
- The oil lamp is an iconic object in the original Arabian Nights. Besides, how often do you see someone walking around with an oil lamp? It's not a common topic. About the gameplay elements that are linked... about every game article does this, and for good reason: frankly, non-gamers do not always know what a boss battle or checkpoint is, for example. Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Oil lamp is marginally questionable as it is key symbol of djinns and 1000nights. Many gaming terms, however, should be linked or explained. The audience is an intelligent general population reader and not necessarily a gamer, which video game articles often forget.— HELLKNOWZ ▎TALK 22:38, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't see a Famitsu rating. I would expect to see one for a Sonic game.
- Such a review is mentioned neither in Game Rankings nor Metacritic. Why is it any more likely that Famitsu would review a Sonic game than any other game? Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Because its akin to reviewing a Mario game or Final Fantasy game. It is a popular franchise. While GameRankings and such are good at picking up Famitsu's scores, they aren't perfect and I've known a few to slip through the cracks.
- search results (using a custom RS search engine) for ソニックと秘密のリング ファミ通 or "sonic and the sacred rings" famitsu. I didn't check the sources, but there is quite possibly some info there.陣内Jinnai 23:04, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Such a review is mentioned neither in Game Rankings nor Metacritic. Why is it any more likely that Famitsu would review a Sonic game than any other game? Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- improper use of {{cquote}}. That template is used for Pull-quotes. Furthermore as this doesn't appear to be a long quote or paragraph, it should be incorporated into the paragraph and not use a blockquote.
- The plot section could use some prose cleanup such as:
Their enemy is Erazor Djinn, a djinn who aspires to erase the entirety of the Arabian Nights book. -using the word djinn to describe a djinn??While sleeping after reading the Arabian Nights, Sonic is awoken by Shahra.-rewrite- Erazor opportunistically tells Sonic that he will remove the arrow if Sonic gathers the World Rings for him. If Sonic does not do so before the flame goes out, his "life is forfeit". - looks as though this should be one sentance
o keep them out of Erazor's hands, Sonic wishes for Shahra to do what she truly thinks is right, and she collapses to the ground. - you collapse "on" or "ontop of" the ground, not "to" the ground.- These are just some examples that i could easily spot so don't take this as meaning that's all that's wrong with the prose.
- Well, I did already get a copyeditor who seems to be pretty well-respected. He said the prose was good and that copyediting it wasn't difficult. Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I know how you feel. I went through 4-5 such copyeditors in addition to many of my own to get School Rumble where it is.陣内Jinnai 23:05, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I did already get a copyeditor who seems to be pretty well-respected. He said the prose was good and that copyediting it wasn't difficult. Tezero (talk) 22:27, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Gameplay section seems to get too WP:GAMEGUIDEy with giving explicit instructions on how to do various moves.
- Don't go and quote modes and other text like skills per MOS:TEXT. Outside of the quotes I don't see anything that needs special quotations around it to emphasize it.
- Can someone check the stability and credibility of Sonic News Netwrok and make certain it doesn't violate WP:ELNEVER doesn't have problems with the open wiki portion of WP:ELNO.
陣内Jinnai 21:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Sonic wii.jpg - where was this taken? It may, and I'm not saying it does, have copyright issues if it was taken someplace private where not many pictures were taken or in a restircted area. Since it is inside a building and the user did not state where it was taken I'm raising this just to be certain.陣内Jinnai 03:37, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks like an exhibition, E3-like thing. The image description doesn't say. Tezero (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I saw you restored this image and I have to agree with Jinnai that there are probably issues with the image. Even if the location didn't have restrictions on pictures, the costume is a likely derivative work. Moreover, I don't get what this image adds over a traditional screenshot nor why a picture of a tv screen showing the game would be have less restrictive copyright than a normal screenshot. If the image is ok and is going to be used, it should be explained why it is being used in the caption; what I'm assuming is the Soul Gauge is the only element I can make out. —Ost (talk) 21:17, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks like an exhibition, E3-like thing. The image description doesn't say. Tezero (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments by Giants2008[edit]
- Quick comment – Several references have the title in all capital letters, which is discouraged. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 18:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What? There isn't a single one that does that, and there are only a few that have anything in all capital letters. Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- Giants is referring to references 27, 38, and 39, which have titles with all caps. You should change the titles per WP:ALLCAPS to be in a "start case" format (the WP:ALLCAPS article should clarify things up). -- Nomader (Talk) 00:30, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- What? There isn't a single one that does that, and there are only a few that have anything in all capital letters. Tezero (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.